A notorious point of contention between Catholics/Orthodox and Protestants is the translation of Luke 1:28, whether the term should be translated as "grace" or "favor" (the word is the Greek word for grace, throughout the Bible, but "favor" is still an equally apt translation, but lack on uniformity of translation mars it).
But even if we choose to translate the word here as "favored", instead of "graced" (as in all other contexts), it still indicates the sinlessness of Mary, because the case of the word is *perfect participle*. This does not mean "highly" favored, it means *completely* favored (a perfect participle of "grown" in Greek, for instance, would be the equivalent of the English "full-grown"). This\ means God's favor of her could not be any higher, it is full-grown, which indicates she is sinless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8XE3j_c0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6e9T1FpG8
Ayy lmao
>>1352825
>I have no idea what Grace is because I'm retarded.
>>1353004
In Orthodox Christianity, God's grace is his uncreated energies.
>>1352825
David was favored of God, but still was a fuckup. Only Jesus was sinless, you idolatrous reprobate.
>>1353103
Favored, not in perfect participle which conveys a completeness.
>>1353023
Redpill us on essence-energy distinction in orthodoxy.
>>1353127
Essentially, God's essence is God's infinite transcendence, God's energies is God's total immanence.
>>1353004
>Thinking a linguistic fudging beats out the stated fact that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Sure, m8, have fun with that.
>>1353132
In physics class we study energy. What does the energy in physics have to do with the energy in the sense that you're using? Are they related at all or are they just homonyms?
>>1352825
Fucking bullshit.
Romans 3:9 [ All Have Sinned ] What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Fuck off with your Mother Earth pagan bullshit. Mary was blessed/favored to be the one who God chose to bear His Son.
JESUS IS SINLESS.
NOT MARY.
>>1353152
Related. In physics is from the Greek word, in Orthodox theology it's a translation of the Greek word.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1
>>1353132
Fucking babbling bullshit.
You're really getting on my last nerve.
>>1353159
Your verse doesn't show Mary sin anymore than they show Jesus sinned, and you completely miss the point of them. When you read something in the Bible, the very first thing you start with in exegesis is, "Why is this being said?" All these verses have the same teleos: they are to let people know that they can't get to heaven purely by being good people, and it's especially to let Jews know that they aren't any more righteous than pagans. It's not saying people have no free will when it comes to sin: when you sin, do you choose to do? Every sin is a choice, and you *could* be sinless, you have the freedom to do that, but none of us do. Mary could but she had complete grace and was the New Eve.
I ask you, how couple someone have superlative favor from God if they sin?
>>1353162
Calm down and just listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNqacP7qzTQ
>>1353187
ALL HAVE SINNED
NOT GOD
JESUS IS GOD
GOD HAS NOT FUCKING SINNED YOU FUCKING DOLT
MARY IS NOT GOD YOU FUCKING IDIOT
>>1353187
>I ask you, how couple someone have superlative favor from God if they sin?
Are you fucking kidding me?
FORGIVENESS OF SIN
GRACE
SALVATION
These are things YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.
>>1353201
monophysite detected
>>1353207
So then you are saying it's grace here, and not favor, right?
>>1353187
>Every sin is a choice, and you *could* be sinless, you have the freedom to do that, but none of us do.
Found the heretic.
It's so cute that you think all of humanity is not in default reprobate status all the time from birth. Not even Arminius was as off base as you.
>>1353358
>It's so cute that you think all of humanity is not in default reprobate status all the time from birth
Kek, I don't (Ezekiel 18:20)
That idea of original sin is Catholic. We believe the world is contaminated from original sin and that causes death and suffering to those who are not responsible (hence even Mary faced dormition), but we don't believe simply existing makes you a criminal.
>>1353375
What is Romans 3, Alex?
Ezekiel states that the righteous man should live, sure. But no man is righteous. All have fallen short of God's glory. The Law wasn't given to bring people salvation, but to show the futility of the idea that human action can bring about salvation. Saying that we can choose not to sin is nonsensical, heretical garbage that supplants God's power and glory with the idol of "free will." The only way one becomes regenerate is the extension of grace, we're powerless. No one is righteous before God, no man could be, that's the whole point of Jesus' sacrifice.
>>1353103
>Only Jesus was sinless
what about when he rage quit in the temple?
>>1353686
Thinking divine wrath is sinful
>>1352825
>This\ means God's favor of her could not be any higher, it is full-grown, which indicates she is sinless.
No, it indicates she is fully favored. Which she is, as the mother of The Word's human body. The highest honor a human can receive, but nowhere does it say sinless.
Christians have believed in the sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin from the earliest days of the Church, why do (most) Protestants reject this? I mean I can understand why someone might want to be a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. but Protestantism just seems so disconnected from history to me, I just don't get it m8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRTU1Evbxw0
>>1353791
No they didn't, it was definitely around, but it was never orthodox theology. No scripture supports immaculate conception, nor do any apostolic fathers affirm it.
>>1353197
thanks for this
>>1353791
>from the earliest days of the Church
sauce
>>1353791
>Protestantism just seems so disconnected from history
There may be a few people who believe in Christianity as an actual religion rather than as a tool for their LARP sessions.
>>1353836
Do you maintain that, somehow, "true" Christianity (that is Protestantism, according to Protestants) disappeared for a thousand years, from as early as the time of the church fathers, some of whom, like Iraeneus, were disciples of disciples of the very apostles, to the Late Renaissance, and only appeared again when Martin Luther came around?
>>1353807
Immaculate Conception isn't the same as Mary having never sinned. The Immaculate Conception is particular to the Roman Catholic Church, while the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholics all maintain that Mary did not sin. Until Protestantism came along that was really the only position.
>>1353834
St. Hippolytus of Rome, Origen, St. Athanasius the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, among others.
>>1353860
Owning a Bible was actually made a criminal offence by the Cathokic church. In 860, Pope Nicholas I, sitting high on a throne built specially for the occasion in the town square, pronounced against all people who expressed interest in reading the Bible, and reaffirmed its banned public use (Papal Decree). In 1073, Pope Gregory supported and confirmed the ban, and in 1198, Pope Innocent III declared that anybody caught reading the Bible would be stoned to death by soldiers of the Church military (Diderots Encyclopedia, 1759). In 1229, the Council of Toulouse, to be spoken of with detestation, passed another Decree that strictly prohibits laics from having in their possession either the Old or New Testaments; or from translating them into the vulgar tongue. By the 14th Century, possession of a Bible by the laity was a criminal offence and punishable by whipping, confiscation of real and personal property, and burning at the stake.
>>1353733
>Which she is, as the mother of The Word's human body.
No, the tense is perfect participle, meaning something already complete. It's not pertaining to the future.
>>1354253
Grace was extended to her and she was a servant of God. Just because she's sanctified before God doesn't mean she never sinned. That's how salvation works. All saved people are counted blameless through grace.
Jesus was only adopted as god's son rather than produced from some pagan zeus like induction
>>1354283
To be completely graced means she was a sinless receptacle, because only a sinless receptacle could receive *complete* grace. You gain the capacity to receive more grace the more perfect you become (sometimes there are physical manifestations of this, as with light--halos and such--with Moses it was so strong he had to wear a veil. The ultimate goal of this is of course Theosis: to become one in Christ.But the point is., Mary was completely graced. Already. In fact, that is why she was chosen, it is used as a title of address by the angel ("thou that art" is a phrase added by translators, which the King James Version doesn't hide of course, it italicizes all words that are added by the translators).
>>1354341
He's the Word made flesh, the Word is the Son from before all ages.
>>1354405
Scripture EXPLICITLY states Jesus and ONLY Jesus is sinless.
>>1353719
>I don't know how to greentext
>>1353860
No, Protestantism is a post-Catholic attempted reconstruction of early Christianity, before the emergence or at least codification of the religions now referred to as Orthodoxy and Catholicism (yes, both of them believe themselves to be the true original church, so do many Protestants, and Alexander claimed he descended from Achillies.) Reconstructions are not necessarily accurate, but how historical something "feels" has no bearing on whether or not people believe in it.
>>1353159
By that logic, Jesus also sinned
>>1353358
Explain this
>>1354283
Calvinism debunked by based Chadwick
>>1354253
And she had already been selected. It was complete. Actually giving birth to Jesus was essentially a formality at that point.
>>1354513
Protestantism failed greatly. Protshits cannot explain this
>>1354543
What part of "inaccurate post-Catholic reconstruction" was unclear? I'm clearly not even Protestant, because they don't call themselves that, they call themselves whichever denomination they identify as.
>>1354441
It says he was without sin, it never says he was the only person who did not sin.
>>1354550
Just saying bruh
>>1354542
>Actually giving birth to Jesus was essentially a formality
>>1354561
In terms of being graced, yes.
>>1354565
Let's stop for a second.
Where are you getting all this from, exactly?
>>1354569
The bible.
>>1354569
From my shitty Calvinist theology which is in contradiction with all the Church Fathers and history
>>1354573
The Bible disagrees with you
>>1354573
No, I mean where are you getting this exegesis from. I know that the subject of the exegesis is the Bible
>>1354577
Doesn't look like a bible to me in that screenshot.
>>1354519
Did I say works were unimportant? They're incredibly important but not essential for salvation. The only thing essential for salvation is the extension of grace by God. You can't work your way into heaven, dingus.
>>1354583
That is top class Biblical scholarship in that screenshot, not your shitposting
>>1354584
>at Final Judgement
>"You did not feed me when I was hungry and--"
>"I assure you, My Lord, it wasn't necessary, now gimme my salvation."
>>1354584
We all know that "works" is simply a product of God doing his mind control magic in Sola Fide, not of the person himself. Works is there to show that God reprogrammed the person, without consideration of his free will. In fact, "faith" in Sola Fide is simply receiving Jesus the magical credit card's payment. That's all!
>>1354600
A person who is saved would do those things. It's a mark of salvation because it glorifies God, not a prerequisite to being saved.
>>1354607
>Can't change the rules halfway through the thread.
These aren't rules, I'm asking where you got your exegesis from. Mine is from Greek grammar, the Biblical meaning of grace, and the Church Fathers. What is your source for what the Bible means here, because the Bible certainly does not explicitly say what you are suggesting; what lead you to this conclusion, is what I'm asking. Did you just arrive at it just now, were you taught it, did you always find it quite evident, or what?
>>1354607
Stay mad loser
>not dying to yourself and being reborn
Dude, do you even New Testament?
>>1354615
Yah! God mind controls the person to do them according to your theology!
>>1354615
>A person who is saved would do those things
Where are you getting this from?
>>1354625
Yeah, that's called baptism.
>>1354628
Geez, I don't know, let's ask some Galatians.
>>1354620
The thread title is "even a Protestant reading..." thus, we play by Protestant rules. I don't have to do anything but poke holes in your explanation that what you are saying MUST be the case.
>>1354640
PROTESTANT exegesis is ahistorical
>>1354625
Protestants don't
>>1354639
I presume you can cite specific verses backing you up.
>>1354639
Let's ignore the part about Paul using Abraham as an example which includes Abraham struggling against having to choose God over his son or his own statement that he works out his own salvation in fear and trembling alongside all the statements about works and the Church Fathers! genius!!!
>>1354661
He's probably conflating those sorts of works with works of the *Law*, such as circumcision.
>>1354655
You mean like Galatians 5:22-26?
>>1354665
No, those don't back up what you're saying at all. Where does it say, "Those who are saved will do good works, those who aren't will not"?
>>1354665
So much for Sola Fide
>>1354665
Guess that faith is God altering the brains of those God gave it to
>>1354665
It's like PAUL is addressing puppets
>>1354665
It's like his language presupposes synergism
>>1352825
the only one without sin was Jesus Christ who came to bring grace and by grace we were forgiven of all our past,present and future sin
For those who have accepted jesus Christ as lord sin wont send us to hell but it will make life alot harder for us (it blocks our blessings)
>was mary without sin
no she was human like the rest of us so she was born a sinner like everybody else but when she accepted Jesus as lord she became free from it by grace
>Mary
>Sinless
I wish you Catholic heretics would fucking die
>>1354669
you're so assmad that you're going to hell
Catholics are not christian
i thought orthodox didn't believe mary was sinless
>>1353208
Are you saying Jesus sinned? fucking muslim
>>1354972
Says the one threatening me with eternal punishment when I desteoyed sola Fide with Scripture, logic, NT scholarship and the Church Fathers!
>>1355080
No anon, it's God that's threatening you with eternal punishment
>>1354603
How are things on the broad path?
>>1352825
>all this shitposting over a kike on a stick
y'know, sometimes im glad to be a fedora
>>1355272
I am not the Calvinist here cuntbrain
>>1355307
The broad path is as big as my dick. How about that?
>>1355423
Neither am i, heretic
>>1355485
Your entire theology of course shows otherwise
>>1355755
Why do you reject Jesus Christ?
>>1354283
>sunni isla-i mean calvinism
>>1356469
Your Jesus is not that of Scripture or the Apostles as i had shown
>>1354964
>born a sinner
What
>>1354987
We don't believe in the immaculate conception, which is a Latin doctrine saying that Mary's special conception insulated her from the ontological contamination and suffering all creation endures due to original sin--Mary faced her dormition due to original sin, the same as all creation faces decay and death, but she did not herself sin.
I am Orthodox and I always found this whole sinless and ever virgin Mary Mother Of God thing pretty odd. I think I remember it from Catholic school too.
I think it's just the male heads of the church thinking that women are icky and that doesn't jibe with Christ's immaculate conception.
Our Lady the Theotokos is Holy. She is very holy and saintly, she is even first among saints. Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ is an important title in our theology. Yet I think wholly sinless and insisting that she certainly never had kids after is taking things too far for no good reason. You cannot forget she is human like any of us and that makes the miracle of Christ's birth and her acceptance of it even more amazing and saintly.
>>1359562
>Christ's immaculate conception.
Christ's conception isn't referred to as the "immaculate conception". The "immaculate conception" is a Catholic idea that refers to Mary's conception, which didn't pass on any sin. The idea of a conception as without sin being special is not an Orthodox idea, conceptions in marriage are generally without sin, there is nothing wrong with sex.
>and insisting that she certainly never had kids after is taking things too far for no good reason
She didn't. If she did, Christ would not have had to entrust her care to John.
> too far for no good reason
Doctrine is simply truth, it's not a writer coming up with what makes for the best story. Whether or not you can see a good reason for something has no bearing on its truth.
>>1359587
Yeah. I was confusing some Catholic doctrine there from my time at school with the heathen Papists. I confuse that term of theirs with just our theology of Christ's birth to a virgin mother.
Honestly, I just don't think it mattered. Maybe if she did have kids with Joseph they moved away or died. Maybe they just didn't want to deal with crazy half brother Jesus. We are missing record of decades of Christ's life. I don't think it should matter either way.
And let's not get too wrapped up with the church being all perfect and its leaders writing doctrine that is infallible. We saw that that fucked up the Catholics.
The Orthodox Church thrives on its rich tradition. Yet we need to realize that some of it is holding us back and some of it really does not represent the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. Some of it is just rules and ideas made up by imperfect human leaders for whatever reasons at the time.
>>1359665
Human made rules are canons. Doctrine is what has always been taught in the Church. If you deny doctrine or try to add to it, you are, by definition, a heretic. Catholics are wrong for trying to distort doctrine, not for trying to uphold it.
>>1352825
I have done some very cross references regarding this. Because there are small sects that believed mary was to be blamed. She was in Gods favor until the point of conception of a child born without Sin. That sprang from mary but also from God, God he was. Jews needed atonement for their sins, mary a keeper of the temple. Marians, are keepers of the temple btw. This is where the logic seems to get tricky. In such instance it is believed that mary was chosen by God to be doomed to pay for a sin. It culminated historically as the greatest sin of all the murder of the king of the Jews.
The Jews historically killed all their priests prior to the second temple. At the time of Jesus they killed their King. INRI is a sign of a prophecy. Thats why there are only rabbis. If a people kill their king there is no longer any kingdom. If a people kill their priests they no longer have a religion. If the teacher is the only one left and fight amongst themselves there no long is any truth but the focus is on deception.
And mary was chosen by God to be the perfect witness. To serve the next coming eon. At the time of resurection.
