Can an omniscient God and free will coexist? If God both knows and created everything, then did He created us knowing that we will deny Him and burn in hell?
>>1306144
Nice dubs.
I think both existing is paradoxical, especially if you also invoke that God is supposed to be "all good."
But christfags are just going to >muh god and say we can't understand it so it's pointless to argue.
In Zoroastrianism there is an opposing evil force the opposite of God does that answer anything?
>>1306314
That would resolve the problem but Christianity is not dualistic. Personally, I think it is important to limit God's attributes. Jung for example thought of God as not being unchanging and all-good. Instead he thought God was undergoing individuation through history just as we are.
>>1306144
Yes. I've a will and God isn't stopping me from doing what I want, thus it's free. And he can predict what it is that I want. Still doesn't stop me.
>>1306144
Mr. Spinoza, You're wanted in a free will thread. Mr. Spinoza, report to /his/ for a omniscience vs. free will thread
This kind of metaphysics sounds interesting but is ultimately just a joke.
but to answer, Aquinas would argue some bullshit about God not existing within "time," therefore God's omniscience is fundamentally different because for God everything exists in the present.
In this view God does not think of making you, knows you'll betray him, then makes you anyway.
In this view it is all one motion.
That's Aquinas' answer. I don't have a citation. You shouldn't waste time on frivolous metaphysics like this though. Learn how to paint or something and read Wittgenstein.
These kinds of questions are only for people who have to deal with fundis on a regular basis.
>>1306339
You dont understand the question or free will
> Can an omniscient God and free will coexist?
Yes, because your choice is determined by who you are. If your choice is unknown than that isn't different from rolling the dices and flipping coins. Being a slave to whatever number God rolled for you isn't free will.
>implying god gives a damn about your everyday choices
>>1306626
> implying he gives a damn about anything
Would you even care about shit here if you could just create whatever you want? I wouldn't.
>>1306295
It's not our fault the argument from evil can't get to its conclusion.
>>1306144
I figured God's omniscience is subject to fate, allowing freewill. He doesn't know what will happen. He knows what could happen, which is an infinitely larger piece of knowledge to process. When you're faced with a decision, God doesn't know what you will do but knows the separate realities resulting from each possibility, and He knows these realities from start to finish, including every possible deviation. This could probably be applied to chance/fate as well. Things happen or they don't, either way existence keeps moving and nothing really matters because for anything that's considered "important" there's a possible reality where it doesn't exist.
>>1306360
It's a nonsensical question, I know perfectly well what the so called """""""""""""question"""""""""""" is about.
>>1306144
Just because you know everything a person can and will do doesn't mean the person still can't choose to do it or not.
>>1306339
You do not understand the question
God would have created whatever tool you use to make your choice and by extension everything interfering with your choice
God created your brain/soul thus he created that which reacts to all things
God created your parents and their minds, as well as the environment thus creating all things to react to
What OP is trying to reconcile is the nature of fault and omniscience and omnipotence
God would have made your mind/soul exactly as he wanted due to his omnipotence, God would know exactly what your mind would do due to his omniscience
Thus one can conclude God would create you to do whatever it is you do, obviously including sin, which to some would mean God would thus sin
>>1306818
Or perhaps OP is referring to knowing an outcome and whether or not that outcome was merely known or ordained by knowing that outcome
Idk desu
>>1306800
If you did you would not have responded as you did.
If god has a plan then free will cannot exist, because everything has been planned. You can meke no actions outside of that plan. This includes disbelief.
>>1306788
All separate realities are as real as your one anon, illusion of free will is product of your lack of certain knowledge and inability to perceive them.
>>1306352
I thought aquinas says sonething like since man was created in god's image, man has providence over his own actions which are committed through the intellect in the same way the divine intellect has providence over the creation as a whole.
Still doesn't resolve the question of atemporal omniscience though.
>>1306830
Why do you think that his plan doesn't include all of your decisions? He plans your future with you. He can do this because he knows what you would think about his plan.
>>1306850
What bullshit. He know what i would think about his plan because he created me to think that way.
God can make no other decisions other than when and where ibwill be born and that still comprimises my free will. If i were born a black man in 1830 america i would likley be a slave, if i were born 1000 years from now i would be deciding on color of hover car. The types of parents i am born to affects free will what they nurture in me or nwglect.
God does not have to have a comprehensive plan any plan at all damages free will.
If god were benevolent then he would not allow athiests to be born or do everytging in his power to convince them, he would know exactly what that is.
>>1306914
You just have a pleb conception of free will. Free will just means you have the power to do other than you do, not that there's no restriction of your options.
God's benevolence is what it is whether or not atheists turn to him, so there's no reason for him to do more than he has to reveal himself to us.
Free will can't exist. It doesn't matter what the circunstances are.
Moral responsability exists tho, and science can check that trough your brain states :^)
>>1306339
>>1306809
You guys are missing the bigger problem by neglecting that an omniscient being would know what you are going to do before you are even born. Your actions are thus predetermined as it would be impossible for you to do anything else than what has been forseen. If you truly had free will you would be capable of acting in a manner different from what the deity has forseen, which would mean that the god is not omniscient. The two are mutually exclusive.
>>1307002
Knowing what you will do doesn't mean that you won't freely act. Freedom only requires the power to do otherwise than you in fact do, and that's perfectly consistent with facts about what you will choose.
>>1307002
> bigger problem
What problem? You can made a choice. It doesn't matter if God can predict yours. If your actions are truly random then you got zero agency over them.
>>1306959
No i have the correct and only definition of free will.
You have a stilted one to fit your god in. Doing other than what you is determined by situations and thing out of your control so no choice is really free
Then god benevolence is not benevolence we have a definition of the word. You miss the point where he has the power to show us what it would take to turn to send no one to hell but chooses not to
