What is the greatest form of artistic expression and why is it ballet?
Well, I don't think it's the greatest form of artistic expression but I really love well done ballet. It really highlight's someone's talent to be able to tell a moving story through body movement and dances.
Has anyone gotten to see Stanton Welch's 'Giselle' which premiered just this week? I wish I could go see it. Houston Ballet brought their older Giselle to my town a few years ago so it's unlikely they'll tour it in my area, shame.
>>1275189
Damn, OP, that's a funny ass way of spelling opera
>>1275380
aw I'm reading reviews now and it sounds a bit disappointing. Welch didn't make any drastic revisions to the story (certainly nothing to warrant this being "Welch's" Giselle) and he eliminated almost all of the pantomime. Damn it people! Pantomime is essential to these story ballets! The music was literally written for them!
Connor Walsh is still, according to these reviews, bringing it as Albrecht, at least.
>>1275380
Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJmZYd7cYEM
>>1275380
I've seen a few Welch ballets but not Giselle, I thought his Aladdin was very entertaining.
I really think people tend to unjustifiably discredit rap/hip-hop as an art form. Opera, ballet, and painting are all very impressive and skillful, but rap was really the first art that allowed lower classes to express themselves. The vast majority of people were unaffected by mozart's compositions, but rap helped start national conversations about things like police brutality, cultural appropriation, and materialism. At least in the modern era, rap has had the most significant impact in terms of expression (with jazz/blues as a close runner-up)
>>1275555
What is the point of this post? I can appreciate hip-hop I just happen to like ballet more. That said, you're an imbecile if you think rap was the first form of expression of the lower classes.
>What is Folk?
>What is Country Music?
>What is The Blues?
>>1275569
shit, forgot about folk and country. I still think rap is more ubiqitous in terms of cultural impact than other art forms.
>>1275525
I didn't know he did an Aladdin. Have you seen his Marie Antoinette? I saw it a while back in Canada and enjoyed it. I wish there were more historical ballets in general.
>>1275586
that's only because you weren't around when Folk and Country were more important. It's easy and self-assuring to believe that the music of YOUR generation is the best or has the most impact, millennial narcissism at its finest
>>1275609
I haven't seen his Marie Antoinette, but it sounds lovely. I've kept an eye on Welch for many years and almost everything I've heard is good
>I wish there were more historical ballets in general.
I second this
>>1275635
It was surprisingly moving. And Welch actually included historical figures that are left out in most films and even books, such as the king's sister, so that was an interesting touch.
Speaking of historical ballets, I wish there was a filmed version of Will Tuckett's 'Elizabeth'! The Royal Opera House records so much, I'd rather have had this production on home media than their 28738943th Giselle.
>>1275555
98% of Rap/hip-hop is absolute shit.
![1465702030197[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/x3H1csU.png "1465702030197[1].png")
>>1275555
You sound exactly like one of those teenagers that defends their heavy metal fandom by claiming metal is as complex as classical.
>>1277387
>all that crap is fodder for the mass population
>listens to metal
Kekkest of keks
I've been listening to classical music for years now and I would be really interested in Ballet. How do I into Ballett?
>>1277407
Go watch it. Compared to opera or symphonies, ballet is very accessible for a first timer, the more you watch the more you'll appreciate.
Try to live in a large European city
>>1276854
>I wish there was a filmed version of Will Tuckett's 'Elizabeth'! The Royal Opera House records so much
Absolutely, Elizabeth is one of my favorite historical figures and I would love see a recording of the ballet. I'd also love to see MacMillan's Anastasia on blu-ray.
>I'd rather have had this production on home media than their 28738943th Giselle.
Is there any ballet more overrated than Giselle?
>>1277407
It's relatively easy to get into ballet. Just look up your local ballet company and go see one, or check out some DVDs from Kultur or Opus Arte. IMO there is no greater experience than a night of classical dance [spoiler]especially on shrooms or acid[/spoiler]
>>1277387
I'm a classical fan, but i admit that metal in many ways is a successor to classical music.
Has anyone seen pic related? Is it any good?
You guys forget that the only reason ballet isn't dead it's because of the olympics, and also whats ballet main association in popular grounds?
Oh yeah Opera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRoaW7eNxF0
>>1275555
99.99999% of rap is garbage and only a fraction is decent
Less is actually good
>>1277512
in what way? technical ability aside, most metal is either edgy nonsense or emotionless wankery. it's "complexity" in service of nothing.
>not opera
I'd kill to live in NYC, just to be close to the Met. Shame that the local arts center is pretty mediocre.
>>1275555
b8
>>1278360
MET is trash bro, theres honestly no reason for a youngster to go there. No reason at ALL.
>>1278380
I mean FUCK i already have some antipathy towards you, as you're a fellow anon i'll keep going.
You do know how the whole state of opera is near dead right? Not only because of no public, that's consequence as there's no opera anymore.
You get the video i posted here and try to find a performance (vocally) like that and there is none, it's been lots since the 50's (from time to time a random guy shows up with that potential), but it's far beyond its prime and it's in pityfull state.
I mean i know the best voice teacher in the US (in case you're from there), but don't look up to the current industry, be it the professionals or the educational.
>>1278323
I'm not a big metal fan but there are some beautiful songs/albums if you take the time to look. I actually teared up listening to pic related
>>1275380
>It really highlight's someone's talent to be able to tell a moving story through body movement and dances
agreed
I don't care for ballets that are all about showing off like The Nutcracker, bores me to tears. But when I can understand the narrative through the dancing, when it drives the story and furthers characterization, that's incredible.
>>1275189
Ballet sucks.
A bunch of prancing faggots and anorexic chicks.
Gymnastics is far more impressive.
>>1275555
>people tend to unjustifiably discredit rap/hip-hop as an art form.
No, they don't.
It's nigger, ghetto-tier garbage, little different than baby speak, and a blatant rip off of shit like Dr. Suess, and anything they deem worthy of stealing / "sampling".
Rap / hip hop is a step back in black music...a huge step back.
>>1278485
Like all genres, there is some amazing hip-hop if you bother to seek it out. Generalizations like this are only made by people with very little exposure to it, much like when someone hates on Country when all they've heard is what is on the radio.
Popular hip-hop is garbage, as is gangster rap. The underground/alternative scene however is filled with many brilliant artists.
>>1278470
shit taste
>>1277432
>I'd also love to see MacMillan's Anastasia on blu-ray.
One act or three act version?
>>1278900
both, but primarily the three-act version. I have a serious hard-on for Kenneth MacMillan
>>1277407
Um, watch it?
>>1275569
This! Blues literally started from slave workers, got much more lower class can you get.
>>1278926
Ah. I know the one act version is on Youtube, or was last time I checked. I don't think I've seen a full version of the 3 act!
>>1277432
>Is there any ballet more overrated than Giselle?
Giselle is one of my favorite ballets. I haven't gotten to see a lot of stuff but I am in a trainee program at one of the best schools on the East Coast of the US. I love it because more than any other classical ballet (by that I mean before the 20th century) it fantastically develops the characters. It also has very fun to dance variations that are used tastefully in the choreography unlike Sleeping Beauty or The Nutcracker
>>1278926
>I have a serious hard-on for Kenneth MacMillan
He choreographs the best pas de deuxs. I watched some people do his Romeo & Juliet Balcony Pas the other day and they weren't very good but it was still amazing to watch
I like figure skating better.
That's probably just the rollerblader in me coming out (no pun intended) though. It's so damn elegant and graceful.
>>1279963
Can you explain what makes figure skating an art form? I've only seen it on the Olympics so I've always thought of it of a sport and compared it to gymnastics in my head
>>1279922
He really has the most fantastic choreography, everything is about expressing emotion and furthering the drama. Romeo & Juliet, Mayerling, Manon, they all make me tear up
>>1279904
To each their own but I've seen Giselle four times and each one bored me more than the last. It's a ballet in desperate need of reinterpretation
My favourite forms of artistic expression are poetry (including modern rap/hip-hop to some extent) and literature.
I don't feel a strong emotional connection to instrumetal pieces, dance or anything along those lines. The spoken and written word is what resonates most with me. To me language is still the most direct way to transmit thought from one human to another, giving us the amazing experience of communicating the depths of our individual human conditions to one another. I love words.
>>1280266
I saw Royal Ballet do a filmed version of Manon at a movie theater and it was amazing. Marianela Nuñez was beautiful and her partner Federico Bonelli was a great partner. It had so many ups and downs between the Drunk Pas de Deux (which might be one of my favorite moments in dance) and the ending. The only complaint I have is that I'm not a fan of Federico Bonelli's acting. His face never shows any emotion despite whatever his body is doing. He reminds me of Kristen Stewart or Keanu Reeves
>>1279904
>It also has very fun to dance variations that are used tastefully in the choreography unlike Sleeping Beauty or The Nutcracker
The original notations for the variations in Sleeping Beauty are marvelous and don't stand out in a bad way like they do in most modern productions. Ratmansky based his variations on Petipa's notes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVQTJFPqvjE
I wish the 'christening' fairy variations from Ratmansky's SB was available to watch on video, I honestly can't stand to watch the 'standard' variations now that I've seen his
>>1280121
Differerent person, but I'd consider figure skating art similar to ballet or other types of dance, because it uses choreography and movement to create a specific performance.
Sorry, but you're dead wrong.
Cinema is the greatest art form.
>>1280277
I was reading a review of Stanton Welch's Giselle that had a similar sentiment. I do like Giselle, but I agree.
http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/giselle-at-houston-ballet-has-a-spectacular-second-act-8473226
>However, in watching this gorgeous production, I couldn't help but wonder if anyone will ever dare to create a Giselle stripped of all its romantic keystones. I just can't help feeling that a story about an innocent girl who dies of a broken heart, only to save the life of the very man responsible for her undoing, is so very un-2016. And I've never found Hilarion's death to be satisfying, even if his bid for Giselle's heart was unfounded. Not lying has to count for something.
>Canonical traditions aside, I don't think it would hurt for someone to create a Giselle for a 21st-century audience that understands and appreciates the limitations of a romantic aesthetic.
Though my worry is that if someone tried to do a "revised" Giselle they would do something like James Kudelka's Swan Lake, where it almost seems edgy for the sake of being edgy... gang rape! every male character is a rampant misogynist! so dark and cool!
>>1275635
late but here's the bedroom pas de deux from 'Marie,' between Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va39peyPuyM
>>1278323
Depends on what you're listening to, really. There's plenty of really shitty metal out there, and even a lot of the technically complex stuff is pretty shit because they're complex purely for the sake of being such (looking at you, Dragonforce).
On the other hand, there's several prog/prog metal bands out there that seem to follow the complexity of classical music while actually having some substance to it as well. Off the top of my head, Dream Theater's a fairly good example.
>>1278632
The only thing worse than a blind hip hop hater is a backpacker.
Stand up comedy is it for me.
When a person gets up there and exposes everything about them self just for a laugh, there is something amazing about it.
There is also the platform for social critique, however that is found in most arts I believe the intimacy of sharing one's perspective on stage in that way is unique.
>>1282838
thanks, that was excellent
nothing beats a good pas de deux
>>1282949
I listen to a lot of different music, country and blues more than anything else. I ain't no fucking backpacker, faggot
>>1278470
/thread.
Contemporary ballet is awful, it's a completely new form of art that bears little resemblance to ballet from the centuries preceding it. Ballet used to be an expression that said something, like dialogue in a play; ballet today just cares about being visually impressive, it's become a completely narcissistic art that robots would perform better than human beings.
>>1284622
I can't believe I actually kind of agree with Constantine. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it has become worse (there is still some good stuff being made) but I never realized that it has become more of a visual art than a narrative art
>>1284622
why are you consistently wrong in your opinions on art
>>1278640
Excessive lifting is one of the things that killed ballet. Judicious lifting is great, but it's gotten to the point that it's neurotic and makes it all look like a circus performance instead of an expression. Lifting should be reserved to express ecstasy or fury or some other very overwhelming emotion, but nowadays it's done without any sense of that, it's used as punctuation.
>>1275189
Goddamn Balletshiters, you ruined Wagner.
>>1282580
>I'd consider figure skating art similar to ballet or other types of dance, because it uses choreography and movement to create a specific performance.
I agree to an extent. I think it's fair to compare ice skating to dance, but only a few skaters have earned comparisons to ballet in their performances.
Have you ever seen a ballerina on ice?
I give you:
Oksana Baiul - 1994 Olympics Ex - The Swan
https://youtu.be/3bH0CAPzef8
>>1275189
what the fuck is going on here? Why is he naked, and where is his benis?
>>1284622
The ballet styles that developed in the 1950s-1960s are now considered "classical," but they bear little resemblance to ballet from the 1880s-early 1900s, which itself beared little resemblance to ballet from the early 1800s which beared little resemblance to ballet from the 1750s.. you get the idea. Ballet has changed immensely over the years. It will continue to change. Grow with it or get left in the dust.
Pancake tutus need to go away
>>1285895
"Current year" applied to art is such cancer.
>>1288120
How's that dust taste?
>>1288122
Like appreciating art for beauty's sake, instead of appreciating art for avant-garde's sake.
>>1288151
>implying contemporary ballet can't be beautiful
>implying contemporary ballet = avant garde
Lol! Chalky.
>>1288109
What's wrong with them? They allow you to see the legs so you can see what the ballerinas are doing. I understand that they might seem weird and historically inaccurate or whatever but they definitely have their place
>>1288151
>art is expression
please, no
>>1288175
"Avant-garde" is literally the the artistic version of "current year", and that is exactly what you are appealing to.
Contemporary ballet is *can* be beautiful at many points, but contemporary ballets,taken as integrated works, as wholes, seldom are.
>>1288240
No, of course, art does not express.
>>1288254
no it can but it's not a lesser form because it doesn't. it's not a lesser form because it forgoes beauty.
>>1288276
So you think poor prose is no less artful than good prose?
>>1288276
Also, can old style art be better than new? Perhaps even much better? Do you think that is possible? Or is new always preferable?
>>1288249
By your logic, no ballet is beautiful, because all ballet at one point was contemporary.
>>1288301
'artful' suggests a craft. obviously good prose is more 'artful' than bad prose because presumably more effort has gone into crafting it. it doesn't make it a lesser form of art, because 'artfulness' doesn't have much to do with capital-A 'Art'. but also to agree with this you have to think that poor prose can't purposely be crafted through the same kind of effort exerted in creating good prose.
also these are loaded terms. literature is a cultural product and as such can be measured by successes and failures in its (again, presumed) mission to adhere to rules of craft. 'poor prose' may be used to describe a work that does not adhere to the same rules, just as an apple may be called a 'poor orange'
>>1288331
All ballet was once contemporary; not all ballet was once *this* contemporary, which is the contemporary I'm referring to.
>>1275380
Here's a very positive review.
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/entertainment/arts-theater/article/Houston-Ballet-s-Giselle-a-heartbeat-in-motion-8053645.php
I love the idea of adding a Willi to an early scene, not just for creepy effect but so that you know wtf the mother is talking about when she starts talking about the Willis later on.
>>1288339
>'artfulness' doesn't have much to do with capital-A 'Art'.
Except it does unless you assume a priori that whether or not something is art is entirely, completely and totally relative, with no conception being any more valid than any other, in which case you are sentencing the study to an eventual demise.
>>1288308
i don't know what 'better' means in terms of art since there doesn't seem to be a definition of art that remains unchanged from antiquity to the present, but i (try to) appreciate artwork on its own terms, according to the practices, society and theories of its time, since that provides (presumably) the most accurate way of assessing the work.
>>1288349
What you said is
>Contemporary ballet is awful, it's a completely new form of art that bears little resemblance to ballet from the centuries preceding it.
Yet you're ignoring that ballet has evolved dramatically and significantly multiple times throughout the centuries, to the point of completely altering what ballet is. So saying "contemporary ballet is awful because it doesn't resemble ballet from the 'centuries preceding it,' you are also saying ballet at these various points was awful, because it didn't resemble ballet from before, either.
>>1288357
>in which case you are sentencing the study to an eventual demise.
not really. if art exists it is studied. there's no way to conclude the study
>>1288339
>'poor prose' may be used to describe a work that does not adhere to the same rules, just as an apple may be called a 'poor orange'
But you can apply 'poor fruit' to either
This argument is boring.
Here's some Youtube videos of vintage ballet.
Geltzer & Tikhomirov pas de deux, circa 1913: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YNpnbGmM5M
Paris Opera ballet, circa 1940: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpoicDbCwlw
Valborg Borchsenius, 1906: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYB5Mbd9jJI&list=PL36C8mkTeWNSeWfsxk6MtHtzxo_Z9eurZ
Pas de deux, 1902: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPvoyu-QYG0&list=PL36C8mkTeWNSeWfsxk6MtHtzxo_Z9eurZ&index=2
>>1288385
yes in the way that we can say that verrocchio was a worse artist than da vinci, but it's harder to make a case for whether titian was worse than da vinci since they had completely different ideas about art
>>1288366
I know it has, but these evolution, judging from the records of choreography we have, were organic, even when drastic. Just like the staging of Shakespeare has evolved dramatically, you have multi-racial casts and different accents, and lines are sometimes delivered to in a way to *avoid* sounding like verse, in order to make them sound more realistic. But if you started delivering lines with every fifth word being yelled as a convention, and the actors looking away from each other most of the time, that would not be organic.
>>1288372
Once you destroy any possible yardstick for a criterion of what to study, you destroy the study as distinct. Because nothing defines it.
>>1288391
Which is preferable, notice there isn't a neurotic prevalence of lifts, but ballet was already in serious decline even then, with it being convention for dancers to not keep eye contact more a second or two at a time (which is very advisable in scenes conveying flirtation or shyness or fear or shame, but terrible as something constant).
>>1288414
What isn't "organic" about contemporary ballet? What is your yard stick for contemporary ballet? What is your yard stick for "organic"? Isn't it interesting that you define drastic changes to ballet in the past as ~organic~ and therefore okay, but drastic changes to ballet (which aren't even happening on any sort of broad scale, let's be honest) in the modern day is ~~~horrid~~~~.
>>1288403
I don't care for any of them, to be frank, but they are all certainly equally artful.
Someone took a video of the Ratmansky Act I Aurora entrance through the adagio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wMnCLDmfJ0
If ABT doesn't officially record this production and release it I feel like I might die.
>>1288432
The changes were alterations in narrative "language", so to speak, often drastic and probably unsettling if you were used to something older (or exciting if you like change). However, the drastic changes that have happened over the past century and a half or so are perverse and have nothing to do with narration, they are just technical impressiveness for it's own sake; okay for a novelty, but image if 90% of the plays you went to were just characters all saying tongue twisters really fast to wow the audience.
>>1288452
*imagine if
>>1288414
>Once you destroy any possible yardstick for a criterion of what to study, you destroy the study as distinct
like i said, art
>is a cultural product and as such can be measured by successes and failures in its (again, presumed) mission to adhere to rules of craft
and to
>appreciate artwork on its own terms, according to the practices, society and theories of its time, since that provides (presumably) the most accurate way of assessing the work.
this is how the study continues to survive -- it is passive compared to the 'active' of art production.
>>1288449
Oh man that person uploaded most of the famous variations. Heaven!!!
The 'christening' fairies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4EP3R8zcFQ
I'll never get over Ratmansky's variations for these. I can't even stomach the standard versions now, they seem so hollow and lifeless.
>>1288436
but in this example verrocchio would have 'poor prose'
>>1288483
No, just simpler.
The obvious and the only answer is missing.
Suicide. This is THE greatest form of self expression. Nothing else gets close to it.
There is no 'greatest' form of artistic expression, but my personal favorite is film. I think it includes the best features of all other mediums.
The best Romeo and Juliet pas de deux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a04IcHI1fFQ
>>1278470
This. I like music. I like theatre. I don't give a shit about watching interpretive dance, be it ballet or figure skating.
