>free will doesn't exist
>god doesn't exist
>objective morality doesn't exist
>life has no objective meaning
Knowing these facts, how am I supposed to be not depressed? Philosophy, please solve my existential crisis.
God does exist and you can have a relationship with Him
>>1235415
Jesus isn't a qt though so I'll pass
>>1235399
Play vidya or something, I dunno
>>1235415
>God does exist
[Citation needed]
Religionfags should be genocided desu
>>1235415
Nope.
>he thinks objective morality doesn't exist
You don't have to be religious to see that morality is in general pretty objective OP
>>1235432
What a worthless shitty response. You really just wanted to fit in so badly that you jumped on the b8 train and has to type this out. kys
>>1235429
>Religionfags should be genocided desu
This is what happens without an objective morality
>>1235399
>>free will doesn't exist
>>god doesn't exist
???
if there is no superior being then what aren't you free from?
>>1235399
by memes
>>1235460
Parents probably.
>>1235448
>implying the objectiveness of morality, a social construct completely dependent on culture
>>1235429
Reminder that Aquinas objectively proved it and the debate is over
>>1235481
Yeah because the torture of infants being wrong is only a subjective social construct
>>1235486
>Aquinas
>DUDE ARISTOTELIAN METAPHYSICS LMAO
>>1235486
Nope. The universe doesn't have to have begun.
>inb4 b-but cause and effect
That is a principle that exists inside the universe, and it cannot be demonstrated that it applies to the universe itself.
>>1235489
Actually, yes it is. Just look at monkeys and lions.
>>1235446
Nah.
>>1235494
>implying Aristotelian metaphysics arent making a comeback
>>1235504
Those are animals
>>1235506
>I WON AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE, HAHAHA
>>1235513
So are we.
>being depressed that there's nothing hold you back but yourself
Stop being a weakling. Derive meaning from yourself and go and accomplish whatever you want to accomplish before you become infested with maggots, lying six feet under the ground.
>>1235399
Start with not being a pussy. Don't worry. You'll get over it. Everyone(that is intelligent) goes through these things when they're 16-21 years old and they move on. You can only think about it for so long before you just don't give a shit anymore and move on with life.
>>1235517
Then why are we capable of wonder, science, and spirituality
>>1235514
Thanks for going all out in showing you gave up
>>1235486
>Aquinas
>THINGS HAPPEN THEREFORE INTELLIGENCE, LMAO
>>1235506
Surrendering to what? I didn't accept your claim, I denied it.
>>1235529
Because we have more complex brains and a social structure that allows learning from our elders.
>>1235530
>Implying I was ever trying in the first place
>>1235539
What part of our brain accounts for spirituality
>>1235399
Just accept existence for what it is and it'll be okay.
>>1235399
>>objective morality doesn't exist
Subjective goodness does exist tho. If you have enough empathy, you can still feel what you consider 'good'. On top of that, you are free to do what you like, what you enjoy most, since life is meaningless anyway.
Pretty great desu
>>1235542
The part that allows the denial of reality.
>>1235542
I don't know, I'm not an expert on the brain. You could look it up on your own though.
Maybe it comes from our brain's need for order and answers, so it seeks them as best it can? I don't know.
>>1235399
See chart. Although frankly any exetensive post-1800s is going to address the problem you've mentioned. It's been talked to death and exhaustively explored. But you need to actually read books.
>>1235512
I've never heard of this. Can you name some examples of it happening, especially outside of a the Christian "philosophy" section of the world.
>>1235558
Nobody knows. We can dissect an animals brain and for the most part assign which mechanisms result in what. Not with humans though. Human brains are different. Human brains, the red blob in your dome piece, is the most powerful thing in existence.
Yet it came about naturally. Along with the entire universe. Don't seem legit to me.
>>1235538
Meme posting is an automatic surrender my friend
>>1235570
Reminder that even pigeons have been shown to demonstrate beliefs in superstition.
>>1235556
Your point is invalid. The brain DOESN'T accuratly account for reality. We have known about this for hundreds of years. You can't even look at things submerged in water and get an accurate of reality. There is no innate truth about our perception, it's just the one we are stuck with.
>>1235570
Why not? Wouldn't occam's razor indicate that things just happened?
>>1235445
If morality is objective you should have no problem posting a moral code 100% of all life that exists can agree upon.
You fucking can't, except by being intellectually dishonest and saying anyone who disagrees is just immoral. Pretty convenient that you and you alone have the answer to a universal problem question.
>>1235572
Not a meme. It's a legitimate hypothesis that Aquinas never took into account. Since you say its not a meme, what's your refutation?
>>1235564
Good chart desu. That should be in the sticky thread.
>>1235575
Occam favors the simpliest explanation
The simplest explanation would be that spiritual beliefs are natural part of the human experience.
Attempts to explain ALL religion as being entirely from external forces is incredibly complicated and convoluted
>>1235570
So the everything coming out of "nothing", which was actually an infinitely dense point of matter, seems less reasonable then " it was created my an unknowable all powerfull and all knowing being"?
>>1235582
https://www.psychologistworld.com/superstition.php
>>1235582
If machinery was found on the moon, and it was not human, the easiest explanation would be aliens, not gods.
>>1235584
>This meme again
Morality is based on one thing and one thing alone: Survival of the individual and their in-group, whom share a common moral code. This is an objective fact.
The only reason there exists disagreements in morality is because different people have different ideas on how to achieve this, and because not everyone belongs to the same in-group.
>>1235589
>"nothing", which was actually an infinitely dense point of matter,
that isn't "nothing".
> seems less reasonable then " it was created my an unknowable all powerfull and all knowing being"?
yes
>>1235590
kek. He just taught the pigeons the reward system.
>>1235600
That wasn't the point
design = designer
>>1235589
>So the everything coming out of "nothing",
The only time I've seen anyone make this claim is when Christians falsely attribute to the the big bang. The concept of "nothing' doesn't exist in physics, because pure vaccuums do not exist.
Also the Christian explanation fails to account for the origin of everything, since God is part of the 'everything' categeory. You can make special pleading that God is exempt (without giving any real proof) but this just makes the argument too weak to consider.
>>1235582
You wouldn't find machinery on the moon aside from what we as a species have put there.
>>1235588
I don't understand how spiritual beliefs would be the simplest explanation rather than things falling into the place they are today over a long time. Granted, I am not a religious person and no matter how hard I've tried I can't understand it.
>>1235608
>design = designer
But the universe was not designed, that's the thing
>>1235604
>Morality is objective because it is subjective based on individual and collective opinions
lol
>>1235617
You don't really understand the whole objective/subjective dichotomy do you?
>>1235614
It has the appearance of design, given the exponentially small chance of intelligent life actually appearing on earth, or at all anywhere.
>>1235604
>Morality is based on one thing and one thing alone: Survival of the individual and their in-group, whom share a common moral code. This is an objective fact.
No it isn't. You have failed to provide a logical reason for this.
In addition even if you did "survival" and "in-group" are subjective. If you build your morality on subjective foundations it's a subjective morality. "Survival" means something very different to a monk than a normal person, it means not reproducing and idealing being killed as martydom is the best way to have one's soul survive. Different groups ultimately value different outcomes. In addition there is no objective way to measure in group. I can exclude my friend from it or not based on a whim.
>>1235399
Knowing these facts you are finally free. Why would you be depressed? I don't understand.
>>1235625
There is absolutely nothing subjective about survival. Everything you just listed is ideological in nature and has nothing to do with it. The fact that there is no way to "measure" a group does not mean that the premise does not still hold, too.
>>1235622
Unless we are miscommunicating and you are just saying the existence of a belief in moral code is objective then it doesn't matter
>(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
>based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
If morality changes based on a populations culture and values then it's closer to the second definition than the first, and guess what it's the definition of? SUBJECTIVE.
>>1235624
Why focus on life? What makes life so special? Why not focus on methane or helium, or any other configuration of atoms?
>>1235611
Being born with something is incredibly simple. Since certain genetic material can be universial to all humans, if some aspect of it promotes spirituality than it can easily explain all cases of humans having spiritual experiences.
Saying it is all cultural is massively complicated because there are literally hundreds of different examples of spiritualism growing up independent of each other. The earliest human inhabitants we found show displays of rituals and mysticism, every isolated primitive tribe has it.
I'd find it hard to argue that after tens of thousands of years it hasn't been permently imprinted in our dna. Did you know that information can be stored in DNA, like how turtle's dna can give them a map of where to go to lay our eggs.
>>1235662
Can't be that summed up to imagination? It's something humans are extremely good at having.
>>1235660
Because life is more complex to create than those things
>>1235675
Not to mention it has an intrinsic value that we're all aware of.
>>1235675
So?
>>1235681
You're aware of it because you're life. You have a bias towards life because you're life.
>>1235682
So it was more likely to be designed
>>1235604
I bet I don't trust your ideas on what's right.
>>1235688
That intuition comes from your bias as a human. Humans are the ones who design things--we build structures, we fashion mechanisms, we design machines. These are human doings, so you're so used to agency (human agency) being responsible for complicated or not-immediately understandable things/processes, you wrongly assume a mind/similar entity created it. It's a cognitive bias, and it leads you astray.
>>1235704
>That intuition comes from your bias as a human
no. It comes from the fact that things which appear to be designed are probably designed.
>>1235711
You fail to realize that this logic is exactly what stems from your human bias.
>>1235718
no it stems from the way reality works
apparent design = probable design
You're just ruling this off with some hack psychologist logic like that guy who thinks pigeons are superstitious
>>1235726
You still misunderstand. How do you define apparent design? You find apparent design in things that are "complicated" and not easily understood. You therefore apply agency. This is a cognitive bias. Again, to reiterate, humans design things.
>>1235738
>How do you define apparent design?
Things that are unlikely to be created by random chance
>>1235742
How do you know they are unlikely to be created by random chance? I'll guess: your intuition. And you're proving my point again that you're just going off the same faulty bias again.
>>1235748
>How do you know they are unlikely to be created by random chance?
Because the requirements are overwhelmingly great and specific
>>1235759
You don't know that complexity isn't an inevitability with enough time. And don't misuse statistics. The requirements for a pebble on the ground the size of my thumb to have a specific configuration of atoms is humongous in odds. But yet we don't find that incredible. Talking about the "odds" of life is meaningless.
>>1235742
Not him, but evolution is a process that creates complexity, and isn't pure random chance.
>>1235399
>facts
Time to accept that no product of human brain is objective, and learn that you are the master of your world perception
>>1235782
>Then I guess history in itself is meaningless because all we have is odds and probabilities for what probably happened and what didn't
That doesn't follow.
>That doesn't explain the origin of life
Evolution never attempted to.
>>1235787
>Time to accept that no product of human brain is objective
Is that statement objective?
>>1235782
And since we're playing this game, since life is so complex that it demands an designer explanation, I deem light so fast that demands a designer explanation.
Face it. There is no real reason to focus on life. Just because it's complex isn't an answer. That's flawed reasoning. The real reason you are is because your bias towards life and intelligence as a human being.
>>1235668
Why is everyone imagining similar things? You've heard of the theory of arch-types right? That all mythical figures can be reduced to basic figures, common to all cultures and time periods. It is amazing when you can find the same pattern in two different cultures that would have had no way of communicating.
The idea that people were just making stuff up for the fun of it fails to account for the sheer enormity and scale of it. We are talking about a universal phenomena dating back as far as the archeological evidence will go. These are ideas are massively powerful in terms of causing personal development and lead people to have astonishing 'visions'. Not every thing someone day dreams about can produce such things, nor can you explain 100% of it as drugs or lies. This stuff is potent.
Jung had a theory that all myth is of the unconscious. It helps act as a bridge between the conscious and unconscious parts of the brain. Humans are unique among animals that our conscious mind has so much control but in evolutionary history the unconscious mind is far far older. You can sometimes see that animals that grow stronger conscious minds tend start showing early signs of spirituality.
I think this ties it up neatly, since everyone has a subconscious everyone has access to the spirtual side of reality and it can take an infinitude of forms based on whatever the culture has. This also explains the sheer potency and power of it because it's directly inside the brain.
>>1235399
I just jerk off a lot. Embrace that sweet chemical release.
>>1235399
>free will doesn't exist
yes
>god doesn't exist
yes
>objective morality doesn't exist
wait what the fuck?
>life has no objective meaning
what in the shit are you on about?
2 out of 4, git gud
Thats like saying pain doesn't exist, because its just a subjective feeling. Don't be retarded.
>>1235843
I'm fuzzy on the morality thing but how in the fuck is there objective meaning?
>>1235399
>no objective meaning
Swap out objective meaning, replace with hedonism as a subjective meaning. You're welcome.
Why do you need these things?
>>1235871
Because God exists
>>1235878
But he probably doesn't
>>1235881
Except he objectively does
>>1235885
Except he probably doesn't
>>1235843
your analogy is terrible and wrong and there is no evidence that moral statements can be truth-apt so no, morality does not inherently exist in this universe, it's asinine to assume such a thing without the tiniest simplest shred of evidence. Opinions are not evidence. You should feel bad and dumb for being wrong.
>>1235888
Except he objectively does
>>1235876
to be fair hedonism is the closest thing you can apply any inherent meaning in life to. Feeling good is good, therefore I want good. Feeling bad is not good, therefore I do not want bad. This is your premise, welcome to life.
Someone just got introduced to Nietzsche and failed to grasp the conclusion.
>>1235896
He probably doesn't desu
>>1235399
How do you believe free will doesn't exist if a god doesn't exist. Who is controlling your will then
>>1235941
Maybe it's illusory? but for all practical purposes it may as well be real.
>>1235871
You are confusing objective with externally imposed.
You as a free agent (unhindered, this is not a free will argument), can not be told by others what your meaning of life has to be. Even if you found out today that som bitch alien made you for meat, would that be an objective meaning to your life? Fuck no.
There can not be an externally imposed meaning, it has to be meaningful to YOU.
So whatever you find meaning in for yourself, that is objectively the meaning of life for you. As I said, same as pain, just because its subjective to you, doesn't mean that you are not objectively, as a true statement, feel pain. Same with meaning. If your life means something to you, that is the meaning it objectively has for you.
It means as much as anything could possibly mean anything, because meaning is only possible in the context of a conciousness that can expirience meaning. And life means something to us, so it means something as much as anything can have a meaning. That is an objectively true statement.
>>1235878
martyr yourself as soon as possible
>>1235894
I did not say intrinsic. Why would i say that? Did you think I mean morality exists as a particle or something? Are you retarded?
>>1235904
hedonism is about direct pleasure, deapths and impact of expiriences can be a lot more profound that just eat yourself into a coma every chance you get. Thats being an animal. Living a hard but succssessful life, or achieving something despite harsh odds through dedication, or learning to feel empathy and compassion as deeply as humanly possible. All those things might be in the end more preferable and more enjoyable than what is usually understood by hedonism.
>>1235399
Why does thinking this depress people so much? Feeling that life doesn't have any objective purpose doesn't change anything. Just accept the absurdity of your meaningless existence and try to enjoy yourself.
Everything's still the same as it always was.
>>1235962
>So whatever you find meaning in for yourself, that is objectively the meaning of life for you.
Isn't that what SUBjective meaning is, since, y'know, it's mine and no one else's?
>>1235955
But its literally impossible to not have free will if no god exists. Even if you subconscious gives you the illusion of choice its still you indirectly making the decision
>>1235399
For one thing, you need to throw out the idea that objective=good and subjective=bad. We're fed this idea because contemporary culture sees science as the crux of human life.
It is so bad that we talk about subjective things as if they don't exist at all, when really, they are just not scientifically measurable. But of course, according to our culture, everything must be verified by science or else it's "not real". But that is idiotic. The entire point of the scientific method was to measure objective things, not subjective things. It's not surprising that subjective things don't make an appearance in science.
>Life has no objective meaning
Meaning of life is to survive and reproduce.Other than that you set your own life goals and do whatever you fancy
>>1235980
There is a difference there:
pain is subjective to you, noone else expiriences your pain. But the fact THAT you feel pain is objective.
The fact that something means something to you, is also objectively true. It might be expirienced differently to different minds, but the fact that the expirience takes place is still an objective fact.
Thats why i differentiated it to an externally imposed "meaning".
People usually also confuse "life has no externally imposed meaning" with "life is objectively meaningless" as in on one end of the meaningful-vs-meaningless spectrum. That is just a mistake in reasoning and some people make. Likethinking that "the universe doesn't care about us" means that the universe has the capacity to care but just calously and sadisticly watches us suffer. Thats not what it means. It means this terminology just doesn't apply here.
>>1235983
But just because the term "free will" exists doesn't mean it's correct. How you you exist if it weren't for the existence of earth and evolution etc, can your will be said to be free from the process that created it?
Or is the freedom an illusion?
>>1236041
How would you*
>>1235798
There is an exception to every rule, even the rule that there is an exception to every rule.
>>1235983
Fuck?
If the decision you THINK you made conciously is instead generated by a process outside your control and awareness, it just pops up into your conciousness as an establishes conclusion, and you just FEEL that you caused it, YOU had no choice in the matter at all, you're just along for the ride, along with a feeling of agency and every other feeling you get. You, as the thinker of your thoughts, are just witness to them.
That is the situation you discribed with the subconcious, yes?
In what manner is that related to the usual concept of free will?
>>1236040
Listen to this guy OP.
>>1235962
>Uses the word "objectivity"
>Explains exactly how subjectivity works instead
Also I didn't say intrinsic either. I don't see how I'm retarded because you're saying that you didn't say something irrelevant.
And because I know what you meant I'm going to ask why you're claiming something exists when there is no evidence of it's existence? Opinions aren't evidence. You're describing how opinions work, not objective meaning. In fact, the word "objectivity" was invented specifically to separate things that are true for everyone from things that are true for individuals.
Also, to further prove how wrong you are about absolutely everything:
he·don·ism
noun
the pursuit of pleasure; sensual self-indulgence.
This is the most widely accepted definition, top result on google.
>Living a hard but succssessful life, or achieving something despite harsh odds through dedication, or learning to feel empathy and compassion as deeply as humanly possible.
If these things make you feel good living life in order to feel good by doing them is hedonistic, by definition. You just aren't aware of your intrinsic hedonistic nature like a retarded animal and deny it's the basis for everything you do even though it is.
>>1236079
>>1236079
>specifically to separate things that are true for everyone from things that are true for individuals
..Let's try this again:
The fact that you have subjective expiriences, is that an objective fact? The existance of your subjective expiriences, is that an objective fact?
You are confusing the following cases:
"this cake tastes good" is an objective statement ->this is false; not only can it taste bad to someone else because they have weird tastebuds, it also has no intrinsic taste, since that requires someone to actually taste it, and then how it tastes to them is subjective, but the fact that that is how it tastes to them is objective
but nohting has an intrinsic taste, so saying "this cake has no taste" is retarded
"this cake tastes good to me" is an objective statement -> this is true (assuming you are being truthful and not lying about it tastes to you)
saying "life has no meaning" is the same, it objectively has meaning to whoever lives that life, and that is the only extent of "having meaning" that is possible in principle
>tfw never got not into an existential crisis even though I'm nihilistic as fuck
inertia is a bitch
>>1235399
Change your perspective. A lack of objectivity in life means you have ultimate freedom, limited only by your perceptions. You do not need religion, doctrine, or any moral code. They are optional. Just do what you can to have a healthy mind and enjoy life.
>>1236185
>Just do what you can to have a healthy mind and enjoy life.
That sound like morality to me.. considering we as apes are happiest when people around us are happy, what else would you need..
>>1235399
if you're short nothing will work
>>1235429
>Religionfags should be genocided
Atheism everybody
>>1235399
>free will doesn't exist
It makes literally no difference because you can't tell. Obviously you can reason that it doesn't exist, but it doesn't change the fact that everyone experiences the world as if it did.
>god doesn't exist
Thank fuck. I don't think most people would actually find the way the abrahamic god would act to be very agreeable, and it'd be scary to think something of such immense and incomprehensible power exists anyway. Death being permanent is very disconcerting, however.
>objective morality doesn't exist
>life has no objective meaning
Who cares? It annoys me when people complain about things having no "objective" value or purpose because those are completely subjectively defined concepts anyway.
If something has subjective value, it has value, it doesn't need to be validated with "objective" value or anything. Subjective value is the only kind of value that genuinely matters or even exists.
Anyway, morality doesn't need to be objective because it basically just involves everyone trying not to cause one another undue suffering which is something anybody can get on board with, really.
Life doesn't need an objective purpose because the only think that really matters is your own happiness anyway, if you can achieve that consistently, you win.
I'm not being very eloquent here, I know, but people getting depressed over this sort of shit really annoys me because it's not something that anyone with half a brain should be upset about and yet angst over it is still taken seriously.
>>1236246
Thank fuck I'm 6'1" and put on muscle easy.
That dude aint bad looking by any margin, but society's got no love for weak manlets.
>>1236485
>the stupidity of that image
Only theists!
>>1235399
Just keep chewing on it til it tastes like the nothing it's made out of.
Once you stop caring, you'll be freer to focus on life again. Remember, no matter how badly you want to, these questions have not been answered in any self evident or convincing way. If it's hurting you to ask them, you need to learn to let go of whatever reservations you have about their implications. When it hurts you less to ask them, you'll be more free to wonder.
>>1235415
There is only one reason to proselytize on an -anonymous- board for somebody who already accepts atheism as a given. That is trolling. Bad christian. Bad. God doesn't like that, and your Kierkegaardian relationship with him has nothing to do with anon's by its very individual nature.
>>1236529
>mad
lol
>>1236529
Naw man, the priestly caste is considered one of the crucial aspects of early society. Control over food and power is cool and all, but control over morality and ideology are pretty important. Rule by law goes a lot more smoothly if those are consistent within a population.
Granted, it's retarded for very clearly abrahamic tools to claim this influence to be solely their own. They're very special boys though, so don't pop the bubble please.
>>1236566
>very special boys
Yup sonny, we're responsible for the civilization and culture you're leeching off.
>>1235399
just do what is fun and dont hurt others or yourself in the process
>>1236566
>Control over food and power is cool and all, but control over morality and ideology are pretty important.
Right, it's not like Abrahamists believe the world will end soon or anything like that
>>1235460
Laws of physics.
Haven't you ever heard of determinism christfag?
>>1237360
Yeah, it's a belief system that can't meaningfully distinguish itself from Libertarianism.
>>1235570
The human brain isn't completely unknown.
There is function ascribed to various portions of the brain, to insist there isn't is ignoring research.
To imply that there will be no more accurate description of the brains functions is a baseless assumption.
