Christians must by definition believe in both demons and Satan.
The new testament is FULL of references to demons: it was Jesus' power to cast out demons that was considered one of his most serious proofs of divinity. Jesus not only casts out demons in the NT, but talks with them.
Jesus is also tempted by the devil in the desert, who offers him power. This devil is called 'Satan' by name in Mark, and Jesus actually says that he witnessed Satan fall from heaven. Satan is also identified by other names, like Beelzebub.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity#New_Testament
It's just a metaphor, bro.
I'm pretty sure they do, unless you're talking about liberal Protestantism.
>>1219164
Iblis is the self we must vanquish in order to reach unity with Allah.
>>1219164
Christians will say that everything they dont like about the bible is a metaphor and not literal, and everything they like is literal. What they like or dont depends on the time they live in.
Then they will tell you that the bible is all truth as well and that the proof of its truth lies in itself.
They are clinically insane.
>>1219184
please not another bloody tripfag
>>1219164
Of course demons and Satan are real, just look at this thread.
I believe in demon possession, exorcism etc. as well, know very few "christians" who don't.
>>1220053
Your on a board about History and humanities. Of course there's going to be people who think they know everything and give themselves names on an anonymous image board.
>>1220053
fuck you crosscuck
>>1219164
Jesus is just a metaphor. You don't have to believe he was a real person to be a Christian.
It's a metaphor you stupid atheist
We don't believe in any supernatural phenomena unless it's unfalsifiable
>>1220139
You don't speak for me.
>>1219164
Or maybe it's symbolic
>>1220122
What
>>1220120
Muslim false-flag shitposters? Can't be any worse than the die-hard young world creationist shitposters already around here.
>>1220139
>Unitarian detected
Bible is full of metaphors and you can ignore every single thing Jesus say as well except for ''I love you'' and the heaven part of course that's totally legit.
>>1220324
I tend to think of Heaven as a metaphor.
The ressurrection is a metaphor. Jesus didn't let really raise from the dead. What is meant is that one who believes is born again/finds a new meaning in life.
>>1219164
Christians by definition must believe that Jesus is Lord, and that He rose from the dead. That's the definition of what it means to be a Christian.
You will find that there are Christians who do not believe there are demons, or a devil, etc. That makes them ignorant, not not-Christians.
>>1219173
>I'll speak for my betters.
>>1219184
Where in the qur'an does allah promise you unity with him?
>>1220152
> People who believe differently than I do are shitposters.
met·a·phor
ˈmedəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"“I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
synonyms: figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture
"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
"the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"
Most of you don't seem to know what one is....
>literalism
>metaphoricalism
Heretic as fuck.
>>1220466
Met-a-phor
Whatever part of the bible Christians find embarrassing at a given time.
>>1220474
Oh? And what might those be?
>>1220139
demons are unfalsifiable so it's all good
>>1220485
search "possessed" and "exorcism" on youtube and educate yourself, pleb
>>1220489
Top kek.
Have you got a study done under lab conditions that you want to share with us or is it just "check muh shitty youtube clips"?
>>1219271
so perfectly worded. maybe not "clinically insane," but everything else is.
>>1220489
That shit is bunk. Mermaids: The Body Found tier.
>>1220122
please cite the christian creed or doctrine that says "you dont have to believe..." and that doubting jesus existence isn't blasphemous.
the most disgusting thing about christians or other religious people is that they just make shit up about their faith. religion isnt a place where you make up your own rules. religion is where you follow the rules god made up, not you.
>>1220548
>religion is where you follow the rules god made up, not you.
More precisely, religion is where you follow someone else's spirituality because you have none of your own.
>>1220524
Keep looking for peer reviewed journals on wiping your ass while everyone around you holds their nose.
>>1220548
How can you not tell you're not responding to an actual Christian?
>>1220552
>I know something about stuff I'm not involved in.
>>1220563
I'm more involved than you think. Religion is ultimately for the spiritually vapid. Anyone with their own spirituality that engages with religion, often brings most of its supposed collective spirituality with them to the table.
>>1220558
I suppose in your head that is a solid response.
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1563/389.abstract
>>1220561
it doesnt matter who im talking to on this bengali quilting website. the point is christian actually do sound like this. there are roman catholics, for example, that ignore creeds and doctrines that specifically make them roman catholic and just believe the parts of religion that are appealing to them.
and of course no christian wants to tell another that hes not really christian, because they just want their communities to be unified so theres lots of members. its doesnt matter that all the members actually dont have any clue why their unified.
>>1220574
>I'm an expert in something I'm not.
>>1220579
>Science is an appropriate vehicle for supernatual investigations.
>>1220581
You started out talking about Christians, and then suddenly changed to talking about Catholics.
Why?
>>1220589
>for example
do i need to go through every goddamn denomination to prove my point that christians make shit up about what their religion is telling them.
you seem to have trouble focusing on the point im making. maybe im not explaining it clearly
do you think christians typically seem in agreement with eachother and their doctrines about what their faith is telling them?
>>1220588
>Unscientific methods are needed for unscientific subjects
>>1220611
>Science, Science, Uber Alles! Uber Alles in der Welt!
Where did we come from? Dunno
Where are we going? Dunno
Why are we here? Dunno
What is morality? Dunno
What is God like? Dunno
>>1220620
Prior to asserting your asinine opinions, please prepare to have peer reviewed journal entries for all of your "scientific" answers to these questions.
Thank you.
>>1220619
this thread and posts like this>>1220122 are great examples of evidence of how christians dont understand what a christian actually is.
you dont need to tell me what Christians have to believe in order to be Christians.
my point is christians really often seem to not understand what Christians have to believe in order to be Christians.
which is disgusting to a person concerned with seeking the truth of the world he live in, regardless of which doctrine that truth is aligned with.
is this coming through to you at all?
>>1219164
The real question: is Christianity a metaphor?
>>1220585
>"no u" tier argument
Nice, religionfags at their peak as usual.
>>1220650
It's spirituality for anarchists.
>>1220660
Is that so?
>>1219164
why have 2 names, satan and beelzebub,refer to the same thing? is it possible beelzebub and satan are 2 different things? is the new testament refering to 2 seperate entities?
>>1220588
So tell me.
What exactly is an appropriate vehicle for supernatural investigations?
Look-at-youtubeism?
Make-stuff-up-ism?
What exactly is the methodology you are applying here?
>>1219184
>iblis
Are you telling me a sonic 06 character's name comes from islam
>>1219164
Okay
>>1220666
I'm afraid so, Leo.
>>1220667
>why have 2 names, satan and beelzebub,refer to the same thing?
I don't know. Why do Americans call football "soccer" and handegg "football"?
>>1219164
christianity really bends monotheism by acknowledging all these demons and the godliness of christ. I can see why islam emphasized how muhammad was not a deity, and jesus was just a prophet and a man, as if it was an attempt to steer abrahamic faiths back to monotheism because christianity kind of let it get out of hand.
Why is anyone quibbling with the OP? He's right. I'm a Christian and I believe in demons and the Devil.
In fact, since I'm Catholic, I believe my Church's clergy regularly banishes them from the world.
>>1220702
that analogy isnt quite right. a better one would be that americans use football and soccer interchangeably, which of course, they dont. so why is the bible using satan and beelzebub interchangeably? or is it in fact refering to 2 different things?
>>1219271
>They are clinically insane.
No, just incredibly dense. A scary level of stupid.
Logically, the whole concept of the Bible makes no sense. The book itself makes no sense. One just has to think about it rationally for a good 15 minutes to realize this.
Allegorically, it has way more value, profundity, and sensibility. It is still fairly toxic to the human spirit but in a metaphorical sense it's at least a formidable work.
There is a reason why the rabble flocks to the church. The absolute lowest of the low in society. Snotty, superstitious, conscience-less whistleblowers and deviants, pedophiles, the diseased and the poor, the uneducated blind folk, the resentful and the petty, and idiot children. The reason is because the work itself is just not hygienic for humanity. The work itself is a contaminated version of what Jesus really said, anyway.
>>1220715
This.
I know most people won't believe me but I had a massive problem with a demon stroking my penis while I was asleep. I tried quack doctors but it was a priest that banished the demon after I opened up in confession.
>>1220715
would you say your faith is really monotheistic? of course God is the all powerful omniscient one, but there seems to be other spirits that have lots of supernatural powers. dont you think judaism and islam are "more monotheistic"
>>1220729
>I know most people won't believe me but I had a massive problem with a demon stroking my penis while I was asleep.
Translation: he had wet dreams often
>I tried quack doctors but it was a priest that banished the demon after I opened up in confession.
Translation: the priest he goes to molests him which now satisfies his urges
>>1220736
'Wet dreams' are something 'sex educators' made up thanks to the Lucifer and Martin Luther.
>>1220734
>of course God is the all powerful omniscient one
That's why I do consider it monotheistic. Just because God is the only genuine, all-powerful deity doesn't mean that there aren't numerous other spiritual entities working their will through the world.
It's a bit like the human situation of bad rulers, dictators and demagogues and such. If God was really going to oppose all who defied his will, why wouldn't he also strike down any non-Christian heads of state? But clearly he doesn't do that, so it's not much of a stretch to think that there are other spiritual forces in the world that can to some degree work their will.
Why doesn't God run a tighter ship? I don't know. Maybe it comes down to free will. Maybe there's a big judgment coming at some point in the far future. All I know is that, even if you look into the Tanakh, there are numerous instances of powers and spirits able to work in ways not aligned with God's will.
>>1220739
why martin luther?
>>1219164
Yes, so?
>>1220749
He destroyed Christianity.
>>1220749
he's still buttmad about something that happened 500 years ago
>>1219164
When you believe in the sky daddy, that's a pretty small leap of faith to take.
>>1220746
does it seem to you that islam was is some way a response to christianity, that miracles and the whole son of god thing was a bad idea and we should go back to worshipping just one thing? no more holy spirit, no son of god, no beelzebub, no satan, etc.
I have experience dealing with the demonic, and I've often thought about becoming an exorcist or at least making my way to Rome.
There is so much to it, to actually understand the underpinnings and complexities of the relationship of the demonic to man that it is very difficult to quickly "prove" it to a person who has no personal experience with it. Though it can be done in some situations.
If you want to dive into it without needing great historical and knowledge of esoteric systems I would suggest reading the work Hostage to the Devil by Dr. Malachi Martin.
I'll stay in this thread for awhile if anyone has questions about the nature of the demonic and its relation to man. My name is Thomas.
>>1220739
Bullshit. Repression can be visibly seen in people who suffer from it, it's called neurosis. I would know, because I suffer from it, to the point where if I don't jerk off every week I get night terrors.
Demons causing that? lol yeah, personal demons maybe. I know myself well and what's happened in my past to know what causes it.
>>1220694
Read the Kingdom of God is Within You. Leo wouldn't find that claim all that shocking in the slightest.
Well I guess I'll check in on this thread later, I'll be going out to eat soon.
Best of luck to you all in your investigations.
>>1220739
>>1219164
Oh God, why do I wanna fuck that image?
Fuck demons, all of them are faggots following some pretty boy too triggered by us Humans.
>>1220790
>>1220845
I knew you wouldn't believe me, but until you have experienced demons visiting you at night you should not be so dismissive.
I don't want to overshare but some mornings I woke up with a bleeding dick.
I was at point only semi-religious and I thought most of it was a joke, but then I woke up to the sunlight playing through my window onto the ceiling and it showed me the face of Jesus. Then I went to see my priest and he cured me.
You can't account for that with scientific tests.
>>1220930
Your right, so how the hell did you summon the demon, you fucking witch.
>>1220935
I never summoned any demon. It came to me at night.
>>1220954
One time it even came on my face. And I woke up with a taste in my mouth like you wouldn't believe.
>>1220954
Bullshit it just came to you. You must of done something to summon it.
>>1220965
Why would I do that?
>>1220968
I don't know, maybe you're a horny and you attracted the daemon from hell.
>>1220973
I am NOT a horny.
>>1219164
>Christians must by definition believe in both demons and Satan.
Unless they consider them parable.
I'd like to say the hard and fast definition is the belief in the divinity of Christ - but a lot of Unitarians don't believe that, and are still called Christian by both themselves and others.
So... Just belief in Christ and the teachings there of on some level then? Hell, not even entirely sure in the belief that he ever actually existed, really, suspect just the value of the teachings would cut it.
In anycase, you don't get to tell other folks what religion they are... Or at least, if you do, you're a dick, and people have no obligation to listen to dicks.
>>1220979
A horny what? Why did you make yourself attractive to the whore?
>>1220930
People can experience anything with just the right kind of chemical imbalance.
>>1220993
That's my mother you are talking about you fat piece of shit.
>>1221008
>his mother is the whore
Well that explains it.
>>1221014
>>1220982
>I'd like to say the hard and fast definition is the belief in the divinity of Christ - but a lot of Unitarians don't believe that, and are still called Christian by both themselves and others.
>So... Just belief in Christ and the teachings there of on some level then?
I'd say belief in Christ (regardless of his nature) and his teachings coupled with no belief in any prophets after Christ. This rules out Muslims and Mormons, while allowing for Unitarians to be called Christian.
The Ebionites might cause trouble with that definition, but luckily they've died out.
>>1221017
I'm not the one getting attacked by demons.
>>1220774
Well, whether it was a 'bad thing' or not is irrelevant, since from my own Christian perspective, Christianity is true and Islam is false, or at least less true than Christianity.
I do believe Islam is something of a response to Christianity, and I think scholars have said as much. I've read people saying that Islam was designed to be more "logical" than Christianity. I don't quite understand the point of that, though. If you believe in the transcendent otherness of God, why try and make him conform more to human logic? The Gospels and Paul's epistles both seem to confirm that Christ, and therefore God, see the world in ways humans do not. The divine perspective is different than the human perspective, and this to me seems more authentic than any attempt to make God more sensible to human understanding.
>>1221025
You sound a lot like a demon to me.
>>1221032
But I'm not, I'm trying to get to the root cause of why you're getting attacked by fucking demons.
>>1221025
Be nice to the kid, jeeze. He probably had really bad sleeping paralysis and the priest cured him in the same sense the a psychologist would.
...and if you have faith, the priest is a hell of a lot more effective.
Plus, the psychologist probably woulda send him to a psychiatrist, who woulda given him a pill that'd probably stop him dreaming altogether with who know's what side effects.
Besides, we all know you wish you were.
>>1220776
Can you tell us about your personal experiences with demons?
>>1221039
>wishing I was bullied by demons
Why?
>>1221034
Everyone is under attack by the devil and his minions.
>>1221046
Oh, no reason...
>>1220774
I suspect Muhammad and his followers were simply trying to glue a thousand different tribes with a thousand different religions under one convenient banner, really, and it more or less worked, for a good long while.
There are a host of other supernatural critters in the Islamic faith, much as Christianity has its angels and devils, so too does Islam have its angels and djinn. So it wasn't an effort to simplify the religion. Indeed, Eastern Orthodoxy woulda pulled that better, as would some brand of gnosticism or zoroastrianism as well. (Well, if not for the conflict of interests.)
Christians can pretty much believe in whatever they dream up, I've met plenty of Christians that all hold utterly contradictory beliefs, so apparently there is no standard. I could, if I wanted to, claim to be a Christian too, and no one could really say that I wasn't.
>>1221064
>protestants
>christians
Top lel
>>1220715
D&D isn't real.
>>1221064
As long as your god is unknowable and your book is long enough, you can hold all the contradictory beliefs you want.
Granted, that's among the factors that allows some of these religions to adapt and survive for so long, so it's not all bad.
>>1221076
SECULAR LIES!
>>1221039
Anyone who blames his problems on unfalsifiable superstition doesn't deserve to be treated nicely. The whole "demons did it" is ignoble and irresponsible, which most of Christianity is (like turning the other cheek and all that nonsense).
>>1221040
Most humans are targeted before they are born into a body. I am turning 26 this year and it has been only 4 years that I have been free from their direct oppression. My personal experience with them ranges daily over a 22 year time period. I'm always watching.
Like I wrote before, it is best for me to answer questions you may have about the demonic as a field of study rather than expound on my personal experience, because any experience with the demonic follows patterns of experience unique to what may be called Evil Spirit.
>>1221034
To the human mind demonic attack appears to be random. And for the most part attempting to get straight answers from a demon is like messing with a tar baby. There are a few men who have investigated them to their core but their works are highly volatile and should be read with care.
>>1221098
Can you give me links to the works of them investigating demons?
I fucking hope all you guys realize that angels and demons are poeticized symbols from our subconscious drives and not physical entities flying around somewhere.
>>1221112
Do you have a single proof to prove that?
A friend of mine told me about an experience his uncle had. He was in an old cabin and he had experienced a cup flying out of it's shelf and a box being placed under a table. Then when he went up the stairs he heard something that sounded like a hoof and a foot climbing the stairs. The uncle had studied the demonic himself and concluded that it was a devil, since they are supposedly half goat human.
>>1221108
I'll give you two books that are old and two books that are new.
1. The Lesser Key of Solomon, anonymous 17th century
2. The Vision and the Voice (particularly the 10th aethyr called ZAX) by Aleister Crowley
3. Hostage to the Devil by Dr. Malachi Martin
4. Glimpses of the Devil and The People of the Lie by Dr. M. Scott Peck
>>1221112
Except that's clearly wrong if you actually read the Bible?
>>1221117
Only reason. Are you capable of that?
There are hundreds of mythological creatures, all created by poets. I am capable of creating new ones. Artists create new ones on a regular basis. Plus, the psychology behind all of their creation can be traced. Philosophers and poets know what good and evil are, what angels and demons are, because they are language, and philosophers and poets are the CREATORS of language. Human language did not precede humanity. Fools are ignorant to their true origins and become enslaved by their own language.
>>1221143
I am, but what's wrong with demons and shit, we already have a dude with a bleeding dick, are you saying that he cut himself while sleeping?
>>1221108
You should also learn as much as you can about the life of Dr. John Dee of Elizabethan England.
>>1219164
If you cannot see Satan's hand in this world you simply haven't been paying attention.
>>1221153
I'm not a doctor, there could be a bunch of different medical causes, assuming he's not bullshitting
>>1221158
Why you gotta namefag bro?
Also I'll look into it, maybe I'll be able to do something with this.
>>1221172
One day you may realize the importance of names. Best of luck to your investigations.
>>1220774
>Islam
>no Beelzebub
>no Satan
>What are Jinn?
>Who is Iblis?
Why do people have such strong opinions about things they know nothing about?
>>1221182
>One day you may realize the importance of names
Not on an image board, if I wanted to see names, I would of gave you one, you know, a pet-name.
>>1221088
>Anyone who blames his problems on unfalsifiable superstition doesn't deserve to be treated nicely.
>he says as he defended the field of psychiatry
>>1219164
Is it true that the Vatican has a chapter of learned exorcist still today.
>>1221214
As long as Hell exist the Church will protect us from it's influence.
>>1220739
Man, when I dont fap for a long time and get wet dreams its always an amazing experience, even though I fuck with the weirdest kinds of shit in the dreamscape.
Really like it, even if it can be mildly disturbing.
Thank you succubi.
>>1221214
Yes.
>>1220774
lol
You are misinformed about islam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxa_zVzNucE
>>1221093
Are they always malevolent or can "give and take" symbiosics be established?
>>1221208
I never said psychiatry is perfect. Plenty of people blame their behavior on mental "disorders" they "can't control" there too, and they are just as ignoble and pathetic.
>>1220749
The papists blame their own catholic friar Martin Luther for all of their problems, because they're reprobates.
>>1221190
Jinn are an invention of Islam to take focus away from the question of angel's free will.
If angels have free will, then the angel who talked to Mohammad might have relayed his own information.
Mohammad spoke to satan, and they all know it. So they claim angels have no free will, and all of the demonic forces are not fallen angels but "jinn".
>>1221214
They have cardinals who openly worship satan in the Vatican, and search the skies with a telescope named L.U.C.I.F.E.R. looking for aliens to "convert".
>>1221288
The system is phooey anon, why do you trust it?
>>1221466
No one is even talking about psychiatry aside from you. Now, psychology is a different story, something that is learned from within. I trust myself.
>>1221850
>trusting yourself
In what?
>>1221853
Judgment.
>>1221466
Kek, you're retarded.
>>1221856
What type of judgement?
>>1221341
Read something by Malachi Martin. Anything by Malachi Martin. Educate yourself before you find your ambient surroundings 2500 degrees centigrade.
>>1221866
Why should I listen to a "protestant" again?
>>1221863
Moral and existential.
>>1221868
And where do you get your morals anon?
>>1221869
Why am I being quizzed here?
My capacity to judge comes from my experiences and my genetic ability to parse them. The genetic part is important.
You can believe what you want to believe. I will continue to consider you an ignoble shitstain if you utilize unfalsifiable "phenomena" of any kind as blame for your terrible character and lack of integrity. Also, thinking that turning the other cheek is noble is acceptable, because it's easy to think that, but it's also an indication that you aren't very perceptive yet.
>>1221890
>Why am I being quizzed here?
Because I'm lonely and you're the only person here talking to me.
>I will continue to consider you an ignoble shitstain if you utilize unfalsifiable "phenomena" of any kind as blame for your terrible character and lack of integrity
And I will call you a faggot who gets' upset over Religion.
>>1221898
I'm not really upset over it, but it certain is like fast food spirituality, spirituality for those who lack their own. And those who have their own are often regarded as demons, sinners, or simply "the ignorant and misled."
By the way, how come all of the interesting, fun, and cool people are sinners? How come it's always boring sticklers who are "pure"? Because being "pure" only works when you're a little kid, after that, it means you're just afraid to or incompetent at growing up. You are a boring person that relies on a system of values (scriptures) to feel any sense of height in your life.
>>1221951
Anon, all it's about is repenting and not being a total fuck up.
But that also means you shouldn't be a total fucking degenerate.
>>1221972
The real sin is repenting. You give up your ability to learn from the experience whenever you do it.
>>1219164
Belief or worship? What are you even trying to say here?
>>1222019
No? You still have the experience, it's not like you forget what you do, but you ask for forgiveness for fucking up.
>>1222036
Washing your hands clean isn't the same as taking responsibility for your actions. It's the opposite.
>>1222042
But you are taking responsibilities you idiot. If you didn't you wouldn't care.
Anyways, these artists who sexualize demons are p. good at that.
>>1219164
I'm not sure what the point of Op's post is
But man, between 2005ish and 2012 I had 3 out of body experiences. It wasn't drug related or anything, they just happened. It's frustrating to talk about because of course no one will believe you, but I've had dreams my whole life. And 3 times in my life I've woken up outside of my body. That's only 3 times, but enough to serve as a reference point and object of discernment from a dream compared to what ever happened to me in those 3 other moments where I woke up fully conscious with my body laid out.
Anyways, 3 of those 3 times I was tortured, 2 of those 3 times I was physically tortured, right there in my bedroom by what looked like shadow silhouettes. I was strangled each time. First time scared to death obviously second time, was worse because I saw this thing enter my room, stop about 4 feet away from me, reach its arm out like a python and it just started strangling me, only this time it was slower and lasted longer. Tried pulling it off my neck and it was just solid muscle and felt like snake skin.
Now in hindsight these things are terrifying to remember, but for reasons you would least expect. The confusion alone is awful because it made no sense. How can something like this happen to people? What's worse is that people never experience this and have no idea of what potentially is on that other side. Then there's the helplessness, to be over powered like that for again, what appeared to be no good reason at all. To make things even more weird in that second attack, you can guess who was sitting at my left hand shoulder while I was being strangled. Dressed in white, bearded face, and just kneeling there watching me getting strangled. I demanded help, but he didn't help me. He just shot me a smile that caused me to do a double take and the python (that's what it felt like with my hands) around my neck, just released its grip and for lack of a better choice of words..I just re-entered my body.
>>1222055
Repenting is the act of giving the responsibility over to someone else. It's a disgrace of the past and an offense to those who suffered. You don't repent, you make that burden a part of you and move forward.
>>1222203
So I'm thinking, this man that looked like Jesus himself was laughing at me, enjoying me being tortured because "I wasn't a good person" or whatever. Which...I probably wasn't, I was angry all the time, combative, highly vindictive all day every day etc etc
So 2 or 3 weeks later I'm about to fall asleep and those 2 experiences crept into my mind, now I can't f#$%ing go to sleep. I was getting angry at how merciless that experience was, but I hear a voice in my head. Tells me that "He' was trying to tell you something with that smile." I'm at my wits end because now I definitely heard that voice in my head, got the chills up my spine, feel frozen like a deer in headlights...I ask "what he was trying to tell me." Answer was he was trying to tell me to 'let go.' That aggrivated me, because I was the one being strangled. What do I have to let go of??? But then I saw a bunch of visions, they came across panels. Like a dozen of them in the matter of seconds. On every single panel was me holding onto anger or being angry and unable to essentially forgive. And that was that. It caused a small change in my life, but I still wasn't a believer at that point. But again, brought forth some positive changes.
So yeah, I believe in that garbage and there's a difference between believing in something and "worshipping" something.
>>1222204
Why you explaining this to me?
Why does God allow demons to interact with this world?
For example, if God hadn't allowed the demons in hell to come to this world in the form of the gods of other faiths and let them teach like they did in hinduism, islam, shinto, etc, it'd been a lot easier to convert those people to christianity.
Honestly He seems a lot more complicated than the philosophical omnipotent,omniscient,omnibenevolent God He is made out to be which IMO makes me question whether those properties are truly applicable to God.
>>1222238
>Why does God allow demons to interact with this world?
Because God said you gotta serve man and dammit, they're serving man.
>>1221866
Also, wouldn't it make sense for highest of the highest priests learning how to remove demons by summoning and then promptly kicking them back to Hell?
I mean I'm taking the faggot word with the giant grain of salt but come on, you gotta get experience.
>>1219164
>Christians must by definition believe in both demons and Satan.
Nope.
>>1222260
>He doesn't believe in Demons
Are you a fucking protestant?
>>1222219
You might want to follow the conversation we were having, it was about taking responsibility for your actions and how Christianity does not promote a healthy form of individual responsibility.
>>1222237
Christianity, or more importantly the church, is established on a hierarchy that abolishes the hierarchy of nature, that of power. In this sense it is completely anarchistic. Jesus did quite a few anarchistic things too, like overturning tables in the temple courts — he was essentially a Jewish anarchist.
>>1222266
But you do take responsibility for said action. But the sin, the crime of it is removed.
>>1222262
No, I'm a mystic.
>>1222266
>>1222276
So a liar?
>>1222285
It's possible he's a Nietzschean.
>>1222290
Do you believe in Demons and the occult that they are a threat to God?
>>1222238
The conflict appears to create strength. Specifically spiritual strength. If that's too "fantastic" of a concept to believe or see, I think strength against despondency might be easier to understand.
How's that saying go? A smooth sea doesn't make a skilled sailor? I kinda feel like that's the reason. I mean every morning we wake up, we fight gravity to just to stand up.
We have a very peculiar existence we experience at the moment, especially when you can imagine the never ending and endlessness of God. Our specific moment is strange to say the least. The growth though, that we gain from this strange experience, it's difficult to see at times but it's there.
>>1222301
Demons are an allegory for the things in the world that cause sin and sadness.
>>1222274
>But the sin, the crime of it is removed.
You aren't taking responsibility for shit then.
When, I think about sin and responsibility, I think about a claim I saw here. Where Constantine sought atonement for killing his wife and son horrifically, and how the neo-Platonists told him that there was no coming back from that, whereas Christianity promised that all could be forgiven.
I think given circumstances like that, I'd agree that Christianity encourages shirking responsibility for your actions.
>>1222266
Someone who is born again has free-will in the truest sense that he or she can choose to not sin, and choose righteousness, and choose to seek after God, but we also have a choice not to follow, not to seek, and choose to sin. Sin is also a noun, it dwells in us. This should cause us to cling to Christ
>>1222314
>But I am.
>feeling bad about doing something "wrong" and feeling better when daddy pats you on the head and says it's okay because you told him about it
>taking responsibility
Anyone mature knows this is childish bunk you're spewing. Confessing and feeling guilt alone isn't how a man takes responsibility.
>>1222337
>said the immoralist hedonist who does nothing
>will not repent his sins
>but calls me the immoral one because I want to be clean
Yeah no
>>1222344
>who does nothing
Now where'd you get this stupid idea from?
>>1222344
>does nothing
That's baseless as hell. He's actually bringing up legitimate criticism, and you're resorting to childish personal attacks.
>>1219164
No.
By "definition" a Christian must simply Love God and Love his neighbor. Everything else is just part of the fairy tale.
>>1222337
>Anyone mature knows this is childish bunk you're spewing. Confessing and feeling guilt alone isn't how a man takes responsibility.
Do you know the definition of repentance? I'm not being a smart ass, I'm genuinely asking.
>>1222352
By the fact that you do nothing, acting like you're a "man" for doing jack shit for anything you do.
Or the fact that you're an atheist cuck in a thread about religion and want to shitpost in it.
>>1222358
>protestant
>christian
>>1222364
>cuck
Why do 4chan Christians insist on using this as an insult? It speaks more poorly of them than it does of the insulted.
Also, how do you know he does nothing?
>>1222358
Is this troll or are there actual people like this?
>>1222373
>Also, how do you know he does nothing?
He doesn't do anything for repentance, and wants to shit around the thread like a faggot atheist would, what the hell is this, /pol/?
>>1222380
>he doesn't do anything for repentance
Oh, so we're moving goalposts now? Feeling guilty and apologizing to God is doing something in only the loosest sense of the term.
Not him, but I'd personally contend that the only way to ever redeem yourself is to make right for your deeds, which means something like the example of Constantine earlier is something you can never, ever be redeemed for.
>>1222391
>Not him, but I'd personally contend that the only way to ever redeem yourself is to make right for your deeds
And be damned to hell? Because just doing that, without the priest, means bunk, means very little, jack shit, see your ass in hell.
>>1222398
>And be damned to hell?
You mean the hell that doesn't exist? I'd be happy to spin on a dime here if you provide me even one shred of empirical proof.
>>1222398
>And be damned to hell?
Nah. Just, you know, be a responsible, real man rather than an irresponsible, feel-good sissy.
It's funny you threw the word "hedonist" around as an insult, when really, repentance is all about wanting to feel good. It's not too different from smoking a quick joint to relieve yourself of reality.
>>1222403
>You mean the hell that doesn't exist?
Atheist Raus. This is why /his/ is shit, you got faggots who go into threads not knowing (or not caring) and waltzing in here like faggots, trying to stir shit.
Fuck you, Hell is real, wanna know why? Because this is Hell.
>>1222413
Actually, I just leapt into a discussion already ongoing. But you have no room to complain, your ideological brothers are by far more disruptive. I can't fault Constantine (he does at least try), but that one asshole who does nothing but spam bible quotes and dump links about the shroud of Turin is a good example, and certainly not the only.
>>1222424
So it's MY fault that I got to deal with atheists because of a faggot Orthodox girl and a """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Traditionalist""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Catholic shitposter who thinks SSPX isn't protestantism? Or or I have to bear the fucking burdern that faggot who shitposts about muh house of Robert E Lee. Just fucking filter them, holy shit.
>>1222404
>repentance is all about wanting to feel good.
It isn't.
>>1222442
You have to deal with atheists because you're on a board dedicated in part to the discussion of ideology, which also means it's criticism. This isn't a fucking hugbox.
>>1222442
>It isn't.
The most commonly told lie is the lie told to the self.
Why would any of you be concerned about not going to hell otherwise? Because it's fucking hell. Because you want to feel good, not bad.
>>1222446
>This isn't a fucking hugbox
No shit. But using actual shitposters as an excuse to tell me why faggots can waltz in here isn't.
>>1222452
Look, if you have a problem with something, report it. I assure you that bitching about it is akin to placing your throne on the beach and ordering the tide to not come in.
For what it's worth, I only came here because this particular discussion was ongoing. Part of 4chan is definitely thread drift.
As for those shitposters being used as an excuse, I was just pointing out that claiming it's atheists that make /his/ shit is fucking idiotic.
>>1222451
If you fucking sin. Then you become imperfect, a piece of dog shit in the eyes of God. If you live this life like a hedonist and do nothing for the sins you rack up then you'll be damned to hell.
>>1222391
>Feeling guilty and apologizing to God is doing something in only the loosest sense of the term.
That's not even an accurate definition/description. It's as half assed as your accusation
>>1222398
Obvious troll...
>what this thread is turning into
>mfw
>>1222462
And his argument here is that you don't want to go to hell, so you repent. Thus, the repentance has nothing to do with personal responsibility, and everything to do with not wanting to suffer in hell.
>>1222467
>That's not even an accurate definition/description. It's as half assed as your accusation
Then by all means, give a more accurate one.
>>1222452
4chan is literally the one of the only places on the internet aside from maybe somethingawful, where wholesale bitterness is widely accepted and supported.
It is a hugbox, and you're in it. But it's hugbox because the embittered and lonely can act as such openly, and expect to get embittered loneliness in return.
>>1222480
>Full of shit. Literally full of shit.
Oh piss off. The only religious threads they remove are the obvious troll threads started by Aelian. They've removed countless "atheist discussion" threads that weren't trolling material.
You're just salty.
>But that's not the case.
Then what is the case?
>>1222494
>The only religious threads they remove are the obvious troll threads started by Aelian.
But that's wrong. I've seen threads get deleted for having a religion topic.
>Then what is the case?
That you're sorry, and that you want to make amends. And this bullshit "ayy lmao you can just pray to God and everything will fix it" bullshit you're trying to spew is wrong. That's protestant cuckoldry.
>>1222480
>But that's not the case.
Except here, all you talk about is the bad consequences when you sin:
>If you fucking sin. Then you become imperfect, a piece of dog shit in the eyes of God. If you live this life like a hedonist and do nothing for the sins you rack up then you'll be damned to hell.
Clearly you are not aware of what your own priorities are. You're a dishonest, indoctrinated hedonist, that is all you are.
>>1222473
I asked someone else if they knew the definition of repentance. I'll ask you you the same. It's recognizing the need for change.
Plus you're undermining the individuals heart and the purpose of guilt. Without guilt, there's no reason to change at all. I mean you're entire perspective is lacking.
>>1222510
Because that's where you go when you got people who are covered with sin, hint. Hint. Trying to act like everything is fine.
>>1222511
I never said guilt wasn't a necessary component of making amends. What I contend is that guilt shouldn't be enough in any moral system.
Sure you recognize the need for change, but what of crimes where you have no capability to make amends, such as boiling your wife alive and executing your son? In that case, the only amends you can make in this Christian view is feeling guilty.
>>1219168
Care to highlight what in the bible is commonly accepted by the larger sects to be metaphorical and what is accepted to be literal?
Care to let me know(if you're a dirty protestant) why you observe a book full of metaphors so literally?
Or if you're catholic, would you care to draw me a line as to how literally metaphors should be acted on, so that I don't have to repent?
Or maybe why a god would make a book that ought to be observed in some literal sense?
Why is it that the observation of the bible decides if you do or don't go to hell?
If god doesn't want you in hell, if you happen to be some silly romeaboo larper, why would god only want the bible observed in latin when there are so many more languages?
If that was a mistake, then are all of those who insisted that it should be rotting in hell right now? If they are, why didn't god make it more clear to them in that case? I mean the guy's got a landline right to the pope.
If god doesn't want people to rot in hell with the devil and demons, why would god want a priestly caste that can't possibly reach everyone? They're human, after all, even if they are sanctioned to observe the divine.
Maybe think about letting me know why damnation rests on something like a metaphor, when the bible is expected to be observed in varying degrees of a literal sense.
It just sorta kiiinda sounds like you're cherry picking a little bit. Just a bit.
>>1222517
>Because that's where you go when you got people who are covered with sin
And why is going there not desirable?
>>1221048
/x/ get out
>>1222532
>And why is going there not desirable?
Think of the most beautiful place ever, now times that by infinity.
That's what you're missing, a comfy afterlife doing whatever in Heaven.
>>1222541
You're not really doing much to refute his accusation that you're a hedonist. If you weren't, you'd accept hell if going there was necessary to do something "right."
>>1222546
Why the hell should I go to Hell if I live a just life?
>>1222519
Dude, repentance is a complete turn around. If someone killed their wife and son, there is forgiveness available to them. Only if they repent. Repentance is that man being completely aware of how wrong he was, that if he was put into that situation again he wouldn't even bat an eye lash at the idea of killing his family again.
It's not up to you if that man is forgiven by the way. If his heart has changed and you can't see it, then your opinion on the situation is meaningless. You would be the one holding onto something that, that man has let go of. As for guilt....a man with a complete change of heart, would have to live with that guilt for the rest of his life until he found peace.
>>1222550
Well, this is going to be difficult to argue, since you likely assume "just" is synonymous with "in accord with God." But in theory what is "just" could mean something different.
>>1222553
Then drop it and look at the pretty succubi.
>>1222560
Remember: it takes two to tango.
>>1222578
And I don't wanna tango with you, because you done is piss me off.
>>1222550
>Why the hell should I go to Hell if I live a just life?
This isn't an argument, dumb hedonist in denial.
>>1222600
>said the actual hedonist
>>1222581
I wasn't offering. I was pointing out that you chose to engage with the guy who started this argument.
>>1222611
So it's my fault since he didn't buy into the guy having his penis bleed like a faucet.
>>1222607
How do you know he's a hedonist? He may be a stoic for all you know.
Do demons ever take the form of cute anime girls?
>>1222621
A demon could never muster something so pure.
>>1222617
Yes, actually. If you hadn't responded, he'd have left.
Remember this lesson for next time you see something posted here that pisses you off.
What do Christians believe?
They believe in Jesus as the Christ, the deliverer, the personal savior of the world.
Do Christians believe in demons?
We read Jesus cast out demons. He used his authority to remove the influence of demons on people. This is why we take it to be true. What that exactly "means" is actually above our heads and grounds for speculation.
Do Christians believe in Satan?
Christians believe ha-satan is literally in the bible, but the "substance" or "personification" of "it" varies in deduction. Some believe the serpent in Eden to be representative of Satan. Some believe, as extension, reference to "old serpent" in Revelation to be the same "thing". Some believe the depiction in Ezekiel 28, because it mentions Eden to be the same "thing". Some believe Lucifer to be the same "thing". Some attribute the woes of the world, men's wild and harmful desires, to be representative of that "thing", instead of placing responsibility of "God's curse" of original sin.
Idea of "Satan" may be one of the most divisive concepts in all of practiced Christianity. "What" exactly satan is, by deduction or pure concept, shapes the entire idea of "why things go wrong" and why there are many troubles at all. This very fact is an important allegory as to the shared understanding of "satan" across the board. It "can't be good", but the real question should be "Is it necessarily as bad as our own nature by virtue of that original sin".
Then we get into interpretation of "sin" in our lives. Some believe we always sin are are yoked by it. Some believe we "sin no more" when we choose Jesus. Some believe there is "original sin" and separately the ignorance we propagate. This is all, every bit, in interpretation just as much, or maybe more, than satan "itself".
>>1222607
Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, which is what your pursuit of heaven is all about.
>>1222631
No, Heaven is the greatest place of all time. But the only reason you wanna be there because you can go see God and shit.
>>1222625
>So a hedonist who pretends to be brooding and acts like a stick in the mud.
Words having meanings, moron. Hedonists views pleasure as a "good" and a Stoic does not.
>>1222607
Also, this guy is correct >>1222618
I'm not really a hedonist. Yes, I prefer pleasure over pain. But I find it childish when anyone thinks that a world of just one or the other can exist. They are both needed. If you want to feel warmth, then your body must first be cold, deprived of warmth. If you want warmth, then you have to want the cold as well, or at least acknowledge its necessity and want in in that sense, otherwise what you have here is a philosophy that is deeply out of sync with life.
>>1222653
(you)
>>1222656
Thanks :^)
>>1222653
>philosophy
>working
What does this even mean?
>>1222665
That it's all a spook. The only thing that matters is the things that work, and whatever it is.
>>1222314
You are undermining the poetry of the Bible with your fundamentalism.
>>1222670
And your mincing the situation if you're telling me that demons aren't out to get you.
>>1222378
>just be compassionate?
>what are you, trolling?
I feel the modern understanding of satan removes some of the weight of personal responsibility. It becomes far too easy to claim, "the devil made me do it", and that is rubbish. The only thing to a Christian you've ever been "made to do" was what comes forth from original sin. It's not "identifying" those sins that makes a Christian, but atonement, realizing "We do sin" and showing humility to God who "does not sin", and so we are obedient.
>>1222373
After all, the implication that cuckoldry ought to be feared, belies a personal fear of cuckoldry.
>>1222673
They are.
The temptress at uni? A demon
Porn? A demon
Alcohol? A demon
Gluttony? A demon
Narcissism? A demon
Disease? A demon
Do you see what I'm getting at?
