"Poverty is not socialism. To be rich is glorious."
Can someone explain to me how the Chinese still believe they are communist? Like they study Marx and Lenin and Mao in school and then they somehow think that the teachings of those men are compatible with the actual Chinese government system?
>>1210177
It's just official. Off the books they know it isn't.
Nobody's just raising stink because it's china's best break so far after 2 shitty centuries. Let the government pretend it is what it is.
>>1210177
Turns out that Authoritarian One-Party State Capitalism works and nobody cares about them styling red and gommienism anywhere.
>>1210177
Maoism was a weird hybrid of Marxist-Leninism and Ruism. It never really drove out the old Chinese folk belief structures, which is why state leaders became strange saint- or small-god-like household figures.
Mao's death left a power vacuum. Chinese officials filled it by configuring the state economy to function like the capitalist and fascist economies of WWI/II, and politically to superficially resemble a republic, but designed to produce "stuff" for foreign buyers, not local growth (which is why you hear stuff like "China needs to grow its GDP by 2% per annum in order to outpace recession). This left the situation even weirder, being a Marxist-Leninist-Ruist-Maoist-Capital-Republic-like... thing... which is "communist" because it resembles Soviet governmental structures, Ruism and Maoism because you're never getting the white off rice, and capitalist-republics because that's how the state economy behaves (but only at the bottom and top levels: capitalist economy for the low class and the elite business class, but pseudo-communism for the working through bureaucratic classes).
So the question is really just probing into a nightmare of complex political and social networks and rearrangements. It's like how American politicians "believe whole-heartedly in the free market" while actively disrupting the free market. They've redefined the terms of discussion so the discussion itself is impenetrable and inarguable to anyone from outside their party, requiring that you agree with them before you can discuss with them.
>>1210331
Really interesting. I'll have to take a closer look at China.
>>1210177
China hadn't had a good government since like 1614, it was about time that something started working, so people don't give a shit that they talk about gommunism, as long as it works.
>>1210331
Not exactly true. There wasn't a power vacuum after Mao died. He had a successor that was supported by the party (only because Mao chose him) but he wasn't a very effective leader due to a lack of tutorship.
Much of the existing government was not supportive of the changes and still believed in Mao's Cultural Revolution and viewed anyone trying to do something different [because it wasn't working] as being bourgeoisie. Deng (pictured in OP) pretty much always pushed for an economic system that actually worked and made China stronger which ended up being a more market based economy. His insistence on doing things his way got him temporarily kicked out of the party twice and the push back from the existing government members made the whole thing an uphill battle. Deng was smart though and was able to build up the changes piece by piece. Prove that this works by using a small experiment, prove the next thing works, etc. That helped him build support as it showed other members of the government that he knew what he was doing. He also knew, generally, who to trust with carrying out his ideas and how to get them into positions of power.
>>1210331
>but designed to produce "stuff" for foreign buyers, not local growth (which is why you hear stuff like "China needs to grow its GDP by 2% per annum in order to outpace recession).
This doesn't logically work.
>>1210486
>China hasn't had good government since 1614
Wew lad
>>1210177
Even in the Soviet Union, the goal was to get rich fast. The Soviets didn't even go that far in terms of radical redistribution and the like. The plan was very much to build up a rich, powerful country with a strong urban proletariat first, as a necessary step towards communism.
This was always the Soviet Model: Planned, state managed capitalism to achieve a sufficient standard of living.
On those terms, how's the CCP doing?
Increasing Urban Population? Check.
Increasing Industrial Workforce? Check.
Increasing Industrial Output? Fucking check.
>>1213105
Wanna trip to the countryside m8?
>Dog with Chinese characteristics.
>>1213208
>Research with Japanese characteristics
>>1213217
>Peace keeping with American characteristics.
>>1213182
Been to the countryside in Hebei. Air pollution is bad(better than some cities), peasants can be a little uncouth, but friendly and safe. Lodging is okay, not third world tier. None of that /pol/ "Chinese are soulless backstabbers" meme.
>>1213105
>mfw thought that top photo was in the late fifites or something.
>mfw Ninties.
Jesus Christ.
>>1213217
>That agony on his face.
Are gooks naturally psychopathic and emotionally stunted?
>>1213342
The nineties were a long time ago, grandpa.
>>1213351
I was born in Decemeber 93. Don't call me grandpa ever again, Pops.
>>1213208
But does he catch mice?
>>1210177
How can you say they aren't if they claim to be? They're just riding out capitalism until they're strong enough to enforce communism.
An Marxist knows Marxism will occur no matter what - so every mass genocide is actually still working towards coming closer to the goal of a global communist state.
>>1213351
Maybe, if you're under 20.
>>1213105
i like the top pic more. It looks comfy
>>1213208
Good post
>>1214424
It was not.
>>1213105
the power of socialist endeavors.
>>1214454
What about capitalist endeavours? Pizza is always worth it.
>>1210177
Daily reminder that free market mechanisms are allowed in communist states.
>>1214489
Most Americans and Eastern Europeans are retarded when it comes to communism.
>>1210486
This is bait
PRC's government since Deng and the ROC 1928-1937 was the best government since 1614.
>>1214528
The ROC absolutely sucked, bro.
>>1214528
Why are retards in this thread thinking that I was saying that the PRC's government wasn't a good government? I said that up until Deng-era PRC, China hadn't had a good government since the Ming fell, but it finally got a new one with Deng
>>1213105
I don't understand why you deliberately misquoted that anon.
>>1210222
It works because they are a modernizing economy built on cheap labor.
Literally every country, regardless of political system, that had those features grew rapidly. China's government is working only so far as it can keep the mask of societal progress up, to keep the country stable from the peasants realizing they are being sold out, and that business will move to India as soon as China's middle class tries to develop in a significant way.
>>1213350
They have such allegiance to the larger Japanese society that its difficult to really make comparisons. Emotions don't really mean the same thing they do to Westerners.
>>1216450
>Literally every country, regardless of political system, that had those features grew rapidly.
>>1216450
Retards that think all that matters is wage difference are the reason there's so many misconceptions with trade and economic development.
China's average wage is $8,000 per person.
That's nearly 4 times India's.
Yet China's economy continues to grow.
Why?
Because PRODUCTIVITY: the output per worker, is nearly 5 times higher in China than India.
You are correct that the worker has been getting screwed though. China's worker productivity is worth about $10,000 a year. Yet they only get paid about $8,000.
Why? Because of artificially low interest rates and an undervalued currency. Much like Japan or Korea, these are like hidden taxes on the average worker.
America recently has the same issue.
>>1216488
>Should've specified
He did specify you illiterate retard. Why are you on a history board if you can't read?
>>1214551
>Why are retards in this thread thinking that I was saying that the PRC's government wasn't a good government?
Because of a certain Chinese shill pulling the wool over the eyes of retarded /his/ posters.
>>1210486
>China hadn't had a good government since like 1614
>>1213105
>China hasn't had good government since 1614
>>1210142
This guy was anti-Hitler. His policies saved millions of lives.
>>1216866
His post was confusing. But I see how it gramatically correct.
>Chinese shill
?
>>1217254
it's*
>>1210142
What remains of China's communism is:
>one party state
>nationalism which varies from benign to fairly rabid
BUT, most importantly, the anti-liberal (I use this in classical terms) attitude to indoctrination and control of the people.
You think American tertiary education is bad, by the time chinese students reach uni they've received years of indoctrination supporting the communist party. University isn't about freedom of intellectual exploration or satiating curiosity, it is about the quasi-spiritual indoctrination of the student's psyche into accepting their polity for what it is.
>>1217288
>he doesnt know that the western educational system isnt pure indoctrination either
>>1217302
Perhaps but its not nearly as overt (whether this is good/bad remains up to you).
I mean all education is some degree of indoctrination but the scariest is that which China subjects its children. Second worst is probably American campuses tho.
>>1217288
they're trying to spread it internationally now
baka.com.au/nsw/behind-confucius-classrooms-the-chinese-government-agency-teaching-nsw-school-students-20160525-gp3882.html
>>1217325
fucking hell
replace "baka" with "s m h"
In the end Mao was right. The Party was littered with capitalist roaders and the Cultural Revolution was necessary to keep China communist.
Their only mistake was not killing more people. Deng Xiaoping and Zhou Enlai should have died.
>>1217325
kek baka.com.au
>>1216878
Only question is, should he have saved it?
>>1217288
>by the time chinese students reach uni they've received years of indoctrination supporting the communist party.
Uhh no
>>1217335
Now that I think about it, I agree with you.
>Maoist policies continue
>China is irrelevant on the world stage
>state capitalist policies are implemented, along side a brand new, spiffy repression apparatus
>China is able to spread their legalist tyranny all over the world
>>1217377
>tyranny
implying
>implying more Maoist China wouldn't have led to the same shit we have in North Korea today with a nuclear armed maniac
>>1217384
>implying poor, insane countries aren't simpler to deal with than rich, evil ones
>>1217393
>implying simpler to deal with = easier to deal with
>>1217364
Wow now I agree with u now!
>>1217377
Maoism will return. Bo Xilai was extremely popular in Chongqing thanks to his Neo-Maoist policies.
The current regime buys time while the economy is growing, but the first economic crisis that hits China will trigger another revolution, and since the only revolutionary terminology the Chinese know is Maoist, what do you think will happen?
>>1217425
I was assuming they'd revert directly to warring states or ROC.
>>1217425
>Chongqing
Wow that's racist
>>1217425
To be fair, we have never seen a state capitalist country long term. People speculate that Hitler's economy would have gone down the drain after a while, but it didn't last long enough for us to find out.
>>1217462
>What is South Korea
The problem with China is calcification; they need to privatize some big SOEs because theyre inefficient and shit but when their directors are members of the CCP it gets complicated
>>1217486
They have been working on making SOE's profitable (which they'd had some success at).
I really doubt they are going to get rid of them any time soon especially if they are deemed to be strategically valuable.
>>1217425
>>1217462
You're assuming that if the PRC were to shit the bed that they'd be allowed to revolt in a vacuum.
The first time around China was an insignificant backwater """"""""country"""""""" and all of the important countries were fucking around with their own problems (The US cutting the Kuomintang's funding and giving it to Mao because of commie journalists doesn't count).
If China were to go full implosion, what makes you think Russia, Iran, Europe, and the Saudis wouldn't love to jump on that shit? We've already seen that the US federal government is willing to bring """""""Democracy""""""" to any Middle Eastern nation steps out of line, what do you think will happen when the world's factory goes tits up? And that's just the US. The Saudi's have been trying for years to bring Chinese Islam under their corporate umbrella. I doubt Russia would just sit idly by, and neither would Japan or South Korea.
>>1217620
The US isn't dumb enough to get involved directly in China.
Last time this was a thing, there was heavy military assistance to China, but we weren't about to put our asses on the line for the nationalist Chinese.
>>1217254
>intentionally misquote a poster to make some ham-fisted point about how great the CCP is
>not a shill
>>1217620
I'd really doubt the Chinese would revolt against the CCP Government.
Even if things were bad, they have an efficient propaganda system and would crack down on dissent like they have done in the past.
And also it would have to be a terrible depression... And if they were in a depression we'd be dragged down too so we'd be facing our own set of problems.
That said... Is the USA better able to deal with mass revolt or are the Chinese?
>>1217288
Lol, not true. I know tons of Chinese and they all aren't making any illusions about the party or communism. They know it's a deeply corrupt cut-troath faction ( and ironically use anti-corruption campaigns to be corrupt ) and that they're only at the mercy of the growth they're helping to foster.
These people know they're in an anomaly of a system. The only thing they are is ethnocentric as fuck. Which is what they've always been and will be. It doesn't do them any harm to be so.
At least Chinese know the reality of their own situation.
We in the West are far more indoctrinated because everyone agrees on the basic tennets of modernity being so awesome... Plus that we should be thankful for it to have dragged us out of the Tartarus of premodern history.
It's honestly a joke to see Westerners talk about being free from indoctrination while all they do is echo the officially sanctioned narrative of anything post-French Revolution being a continuous blessing, if not better than anything that came before.
>>1217672
>intentionally misquote
I wasn't even that poster.
The Hasn't looked like Hadn't to three different people. Apologies, but it was a poor choice of words.
>>1217407
Why don't you back up your shit with sources.
China 2016 education != China 1966 education
>>1218184
>The Hasn't looked like Hadn't to three different people.
No it didn't. You're illiterate if you can't see the difference between hasn't and hadn't.
>Apologies, but it was a poor choice of words.
It wasn't.
>>1217425
>Bo Xilai was extremely popular due to neo-Maoist policies
>>1217620
>what are nukes
It's like you guys all forgot about why WW3 didn't happen and why nuclear powers haven't been invaded since 1945.
>>1218197
The poster that misquoted you obviously rewrote it nearly word for word but got the "hadn't" mixed up with "hasn't." This may be intentional or not.
Shill or no shill, when three people make the same interpretation mistake, it's on you to write the sentence in a way that is easier to interpret how you want.
>>1218233
>when three people make the same interpretation mistake, it's on you to write the sentence in a way that is easier to interpret how you want.
It was perfect grammar. You're wrong. Stop apologizing for illiterates.
>>1218071
>and ironically use anti-corruption campaigns to be corrupt
There's a number of recent studies that show Xi allies being taken down by the corruption campaign.
Also, it's almost completely focused on the unprofitable SOE's and military.
I think you should be able to tell what Xi wants to do with these organizations now that he controls them.
Hint: there's been hundreds of unprofitiable SOE's closed down and the old military has been reformed into a Western style system with joint chiefs of staff and emphasis on Navy/Air Force/Rockets.
>>1218238
Okay.
Question.
Why did China avoid being colonized like India?
>>1218246
Oh yeah Xi isn't really all-powerful.
The Jiang faction is still going and isn't giving up without a fight.
Like it's funny. When I chat with my friends in the mainland, they all use these Jiang Zemin memes. Which at first I thought was an interesting way to see how 'open' China has become to depict their leaders cartoonishly. Which it kind of does. But especially for Jiang they're without mercy. Which goes to show they push the picture of him as a total joke.
>>1218255
Well it did, partly.
I guess it wasn't profitable to go deep inland and actually territorially control the vast landmass.
Pretty much like how the West mostly kept settlements near the coast in Africa because they didn't possess the means in the first few centuries to actually subdue it all.
>>1218314
China is an interesting nation with extremely interesting politics.
I personally don't think many people, even political scientists, understand China.
It's just so quiet about its real political changes inside the party.
In the meantime, the CRD is changing a lot in China and the corruption campaign is beginning to slow.
I believe Xi sometime in February got the memo that he and his anti-corruption had gone too far. Plus the budding cult of personality the state media was creating.
Deng's prodigee still have some power it seems.
I think slowing the anti-corruption campaign is for the best. China needs reform. When officials are all too scared to make decisions they want to, the machinery slows down and mistakes like the 2015 stock market and early 2016 currency depreciation occur.
>>1218335
Bits and pieces. Nothing like India or Africa.
If the Qing Emperor wanted to cause pain for the Europeans, he was able to do it at great cost for himself.
It just is interesting to think Britain didn't try colonizing China like India.
>>1210142
That doesn't sound very Communist.
>>1218314
I don't think we're fully aware here in the West that the meme market in China has extreme potential.
The fact it's been left unexploited is a disgrace.
>>1218376
Hahahah they have some crazy U WUT memes. I don't get half of them.
>>1218478
the facebook page
"Avant-garde memes from China - 中文的 ㄇㄧˊㄇㄨˋ" is fairly entertaining.
>>1219997
Huh. Alright thanks m8
>>1213223
Reminder that every gook deserved to be cooked to death with napalm
>>1220894
Zhou Enlai was such a handsome dude
>>1213350
That's not agony per se, they peeled the skin off his face so all you see are his teeth.
>>1223644
I think I'd be in agony if that happened.
>>1216494
I was exaggerating, we already have enough from China. India will grow just as rapidly when China's wages increase. I don't know the critical amount per hour, but you will see a change of location very rapidly by businesses.
>>1216526
Its not the wage difference, its that the Chinese government is leveraging their economic prosperity as a showing of why they should keep control of the country. But this prosperity is temporary.
>>1223014
>Zhou Enlai
>Not another chinese copycat of a superior thing
>>1226214
Don't you have a manservant to fuck?
>>1216526
good post
>>1226214
>Mishima
>wrote cringeworthy autistic novels about "patriotism"
>eternally butthurt he never got to banzai charge to death
>spilled his spaghetti in front of a bunch of JSDF cadets
>couldn't even sudoku properly
>Zhou Enlai
>levelheaded and extremely skilled politician who never gave into Maoist autism
>actually fought for his country for decades
>didn't spill his spaghetti when Red Guards were fucking shit up
>died from cancer still working like a boss
Yeah, nah.
>>1226298
>unfit for service
>faggot too
lul some hardcore rightwinger he was
>>1226309
He was also a manlet even by Asian standards, a cursory Google search puts him at 5'1. He was just a pissed off dude who should've channeled his anger into poetry, not martial arts and nationalism.
>>1226214
>I know absolutely nothing about Zhou Enlai but read Mishima's wikipedia summary
Holy shit fuck off
>>1226358
Manlet babies should be abandoned in the hills like the days of Sparta
>>1226147
>India will grow just as rapidly when China's wages increase.
China's wages have increased nearly 30 times over since 1990. Industrial production continues to climb.
>I don't know the critical amount per hour, but you will see a change of location very rapidly by businesses.
You seem to think change in wage = change in profitability.
No. Chinese workers earn more because they are more productive.
Of course, the lowest end and highest polluting industries are being taken out of China.
But why would Chinese want that?
China is going through America's 1950's when the worst and cheapest industy was exported to countries willing to handle the pollution and low wage.
>>1226147
>its that the Chinese government is leveraging their economic prosperity as a showing of why they should keep control of the country.
Ummmm okay? And why does that matter? Shouldn't countries take credit for 7% GDP growth?
And is that all they rely on? because that's totally what they did in Maoist times.
>But this prosperity is temporary.
Source?
7% GDP growth each year seems pretty good for now.
A lot of other countries grow 1% a year. You don't see people overthrowing the government because of that.
>>1226949
7% is inflated for sure, and its definitely nominal as opposed to real growth rates
