Why was it so impossible for God to create a perfect world without evil? Why did he decide to tolerate evil in the first place?
>inb4 free will meme
I'm sure omnipotent God can do whatever he likes if he truly wants to create a perfect world
>what is heaven
>>1209510
I don't really get this either. Why can't he just make people who have free will but are naturally content and peaceful because their minds were designed to like good and really really hate evil?
The only rational explanation is that God allows evil for his amusement, with the handwave'y excuse of
>don't worry guys, if you grovel enough eternal bliss awaits
>>1209510
The garden of Eden was perfect, blame Adam and Eve not God
>>1209540
Whose blame is it for creating imperfect humans/angels/gardens?
Itt: why weren't we made like robots with no free will
>>1209580
Next post you're going to tell us God is incapable of doing anything evil, as if he's a robot with no free will.
Hey wait a minute..
>>1209553
Adam and Eve had free will to partake and decided to which introduced sin. The garddecias perfect. Lucifer was glorious and that led to his pride and ultimate fall, you could claim God shouldn't have invented the concept of pride but all things that cone from are good including pride, only when it becomes improper does it lead away from God.
>>1209510
>>1209580
Thanks no of the most moral person you know. It could be your mother, a friend, a saint, the virgin Mary. There are people who, even if they commit minor sins, are not as rotten as the rest of us, and yet they have as much free will as the rest of us. Why couldn't God make everyone hat way?
>>1209597
Garden of Eden was*
>>1209510
>Evil
Trying to understand the choice ,if you can call it like that, of an omnipotent being that cant be even described by any humane means,is just impossible. Things like good and evil are purely mundane terms.
>>1209597
Why did a perfect garden have the forbidden fruit?
>>1209597
How can perfect beings make imperfect choices? Talking about SHAITAN as well as Adam here.
>>1209602
They choose to be that way. No human has to be rotten. Humans have no one else to blame but themselves.
>>1209629
Like it says, all things God creates are good, including the fruit of knowledge. Therefore since it's good God intended for Adam and Eve to partake and become capable of distinguishing between good and evil when they were mature enough. Satan in his hatred of mankind tricked Eve into eating the fruit claiming that it would lead to becoming like God when it instead led to them being cast out and sin introduced.
>>1209510
Good can't really without evil to contrast against it, just as light can't really exist without darkness to contrast. Evil exists in order for good to exist in a meaningful way.
>>1209629
It is a methaphor to explain why humans act concupiscibly. The old testament is mostly mythos and oral tradition.
>>1209652
>they learned about good and evil too early
>damn them for all eternity and make them suffer
>couldn't even foresee this and BTFO the snake before it could do anything
Hey, sounds like an all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful being right there.
>>1209641
Lucifer wasn't perfect but he was the greatest of the angels, second only to the persons of the trinity. He had free will of course, with that he grew envious of God and rebelled. But that doesn't mean that anything including emotions such as hate and pride are inherently evil things since they come from God.
>>1209641
>imperfect choices
You are wring here. You are trying to explain something that cannot even be described with our language. All the confusion that comes in the discussion of God,is just linguistical or limited by our own minds. It is impossible to even describe how a neing like God could operate
>>1209687
agnostic please go
>>1209540
Nah.
You could still blame god for that.
He left two idiots with no concept of right or wrong and zero experience, as well as infinite time, a tempter and zero supervision (Since he isn't omniscient or omnipresent in this story).
They only had his word to go on as well and he was either plainly lying or lying by omission since neither of them died and he didn't mention that it would be a spiritual death (Ignoring that dualism is retarded since we're already talking about the garden of eden).
The story of genesis is retarded.
>because god is evil
>because god is crazy
>because god is dead
>because there are many gods
>because there is no god
why not pick one OP?
>>1209711
proof?
>>1209682
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApL4ESiEix0
>>1209510
Mysterious ways and shit.
>>1209673
Adam and Eve aren't in hell, they went to Hades until the resurrection when Christ descended and brought them out. Satan aka. The snakes treachery didn't change God's plan, regardless of whether they waited until they were mature it was still necessary for The Son to come incarnate in the flesh to redeem the flesh. Since in our fallen state our goal isn't to return to their innocent state but to go beyond to become one with God. Think of it like a shortcut, you can take the longer road until you're ready to partake or take a shortcut is more painful and arduous but they both lead to Christ's incarnation.
>>1209691
I am theist. But it is just impossible to understand God. The only way to understand it would be through revelation.
>>1209739
>[citation needed]: the post
I mean your rationalizations are nice and all, but they're nowhere to be found in the Bible.
t. someone who read it without cognitive dissonance
>>1209696
But they did die as a result of eating the fruit, not immediately but death along with disease, hunger etc. were introduced as a result of sin being introduced into the world. You're also assuming Adam and Eve weren't becoming what God wanted them to be, if a child asks to drive a car you don't allow them to until theythey're mature because you know they will most surely die, as the bible puts it, and II'd say humanity has assuredly not been mature in the knowledge they were given.
>>1209791
They died as a result of God damning them, not the fruit.
>i'm going to the shop kids, if you touch the stove you will surely die
>kids touch the stove
>come back home and murder them
STRAIGHTFORWARD.
>>1209791
That's why I don't let my 5 year old nephew drive the car. If I hung up my keys near his toy chest and he took it for a joy ride, crashing it into a pole. It's probably my fault more than his.
>>1209773
These aren't my rationalizations, it's Eastern Orthodox theology as well as teachings of early church fathers, you're free not to believe it but if you go sola scriptura all you're gonna end up with is the snake being a Promethean type figure.
>>1209805
They're someone else's rationalizations, but rationalizations nonetheless. I don't care about shit that must be assumed in order to make the Bible work, that don't come from it.
>>1209650
Surely you can admit that it is not as easy for everyone to be good. Some people, through genetics and circumstance, are tempted worse than others. Why couldn't God just make us less genetically prone to temptation?
>>1209802
Without them having the capacity to partake of the fruit they have no possible way of defying God's command and thus no free will.
>>1209800
They died as a result of sin, according to tradition for the rest of their lives they committed no other sins which is why they lived such long lives in the beginning of the bible and subsequent generations lifespans slowly decline as they become more sinful and further away from God. They were forced to leave the perfect garden because they were now imperfect.
>>1209840
>They died as a result of sin
I love how you keep trying to absolve God of responsibility, but it is he that punishes and rewards. So fuck off.
Why did God put the fruit there in the first place?
>>1209840
>the only way to have free will is to be able to fuck up in this specific way
How retarded are your arguments going to get?
>>1209848
God is responsible for driving them out of the garden, but the introduction of death into thecworld rests squarely on Satan and those two.
>>1209840
That doesn't make sense. Didn't people in Noah's time live hundreds of years ? And yet God killed almost all of them for being sinners.
>>1209855
In their innocent state in the garden of Eden partaking of the fruit was the only possible decision they could make of their own free will that would go against God's commandments, without that option their free will would be meaningless
>>1209856
>God is responsible for driving them out of the garden, but the introduction of death into thecworld rests squarely on Satan and those two.
This post is the definition of cognitive dissonance. I'm outta this thread.
>>1209874
But your prior explanation was that they weren't ready to eat the fruit yet. If they were too underdeveloped to wisely make that decision then it shouldn't have been possible for them to make it at all. This is what we do with children. We don't let them get the keys to the car, or their hands on the knife, or their finger in the socket, etc.
>>1209874
>choosing whether to go here or there isn't free will
>it's only free will if the outcome is being BTFO'd by God for no reason
What's even your definition of free will?
>>1209916
They did not have the capacity to exercise their free will that went against what God commanded
>>1209931
The "capacity to exercise" free will is irrelevant. I have a will to fucking destroy god.
>y-y-you can't do that
Then I don't have free will. Fuck off with this nonsense.
>>1209888
If they can't eat of the fruit prior to them reaching maturity then in what sense would they have any agency, they'd simply be waiting until God deemed them worthy to partake and be given it instead of having to resist temptation until the appointed time.
>>1209510
>Christfags treating their fairytales like a legit topic.
I'll tip my fedora, I don't even care. Tired of this cancer on /his/ of all places, ffs.
>>1209510
Have you ever written a story?
If there's no suffering the argument is a bore.
Now, if you are a god and you want to make a good story you need conflict, strife and suffering.
Look at history, got all those ingredients and it's entertaining as fuck.
A perfect world is a boring world.
>>1209937
So if they were simply sitting in the Gadren of Eden in a state of innocence prior to the introduction of sin waiting until God decides to give them the fruit what difference would their decisions make? You may have the capacity to will God's death but they didn't.
>>1209971
/his/ isn't your safe space, sorry bud
>>1210024
>You may have the capacity to will God's death but they didn't.
Nice unsubstantiated claim. God existed, so they probably did have that capacity.
> what difference would their decisions make?
What difference do you think your decisions make right now? It is of exactly zero relevance.
>>1209960
Having free will, but no real knowledge, sounds as if they were children. Meaning they need to be protected from certain catastrophic choices that they don't understand.
>>1210038
Choosing to follow God's commandments or not to is pretty relevant when it comes to the bible. I suppose they could've decided to fool around with the animal names if they wanted.
Your probably is meaningless, desiring the destruction of God is a result of sin, something they didn't have. It's obvious you hate God and want him to be a tyrannical bully in order to justify that.
Why did God put the Tree/Fruit in the Garden to begin with? Why did he allow Satan to tempt them? Why did he punish them for an action they didn't fully understand?
>>1210062
>Choosing to follow God's commandments or not to is pretty relevant when it comes to the bible. I suppose they could've decided to fool around with the animal names if they wanted.
But that isn't free will as you've defined it.
>Your probably is meaningless
About as meaningless as yours, mate. Unless you want to tell me what "meaning" decision between a chicken sandwich and a bacon sandwich contains.
>It's obvious you hate God and want him to be a tyrannical bully in order to justify that.
I don't hate something that doesn't exist, just for the record.
>>1210066
The fruit is good as are all things, they weren't mature enough for it. According to Genesis God was away which Satan took as an opportunity to tempt Eve. The only punishment God gave was driving them from the garden, everything else that is evil which came about is from sin being introduced.
>>1210071
What would "maturity" have granted them then, if all they had to do is wander around the garden like some ants?
>>1209510
God didn't want to create a perfect world. It already exists in heaven. He wanted to create a free and independent natural world. And he destroyed evil at the flood and then made a covenant with Noah never to do so again.
>>1209937
You are free to try and destroy God though.
>>1210077
You're pretty adamant this somethint this something that doesn't exist conform to your image of it.
Without more info the choice between those two sandwiches is meaningless morally. Choosing between loving or hating God and decidingg whether you're going to follow his commandments has meaning because one is sinful and the other is virtuous.
>>1210109
Then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil could've been put outside of the limits of A&E's reach.
>you're free to try to eat from this tree, good luck tho hehe
There you go, I just solved your issue of sin.
>>1210112
>Without more info the choice between those two sandwiches is meaningless morally.
If choosing between sandwiches is not free will, I reject your retarded idea of free will.
>>1210089
When they had reached a "mature" stage they would be free to partake of the fruit of knowledge and use the ability to distinguish between good and evil in a wise manner, thus not introducing sin while still becoming like God (Theosis) which is what Satan initially promised.
>>inb4 free will meme
You don't get to write off arguments by calling them memes. The free will defense is correct, anyway.
>>1210131
Lovely tautology, but you're not explaining what would be different about the scenario.
>>1210129
Choosing between the sandwiches is a choice made of free will, but without more info it isn't a choice that has any bearing on morality. Same as hypothetically Adam could have named cats as dogs and dogs as cats, but it would make no difference.
>>1210143
Oh sorry I misunderstood, following this Christ would've eventually come in the flesh and redeemed the flesh, which would allow them to ascend into heaven.
>>1210150
If choosing the sandwiches is free will, then the "difference" you're talking about is completely irrelevant. Get it through your thick skull.
>>1210161
What does Christ have to do with their "maturity" exactly?
>>1210165
Well the Son is a member of the trinity so presumably he would've helped them reach this mature state. Other than that I don't understood your question.
>>1210180
I'm asking you what you're calling "mature", you inane dipshit.
>>1210163
Guess I'm too thick for your enlightened intelligence but the difference is that the choice between sandwiches is irrelevant to morality while disobeying God's commandments is relevant to morality, I think you just enjoy being angry.
>>1210193
Where does morality enter into free will, cretin?
>>1210224
Fuck off, moran.
>>1210230
I'll pray for your soul anon ;)
The point is that man must learn how to pave his own way to heaven.
if you hadn't realized it by now, heaven and the teachings of christ are metaphorical, not literal. But even if you believe that they are literal, what I said still applies.
>There you go, my children, an entire world just for you!
>Just be sure to not do that and that and (...), otherwise I will get really mad and you will suffer in hell for all eternity, okay? Now go enjoy your free will, my beloved ones!
Well, this hypothesis is only true if there is actually a God, but the probability of that hypothesis being right is the same as every other that does not include an Omnipotent god.
But, if he IS omnipotent and did not make the world "good", being good OUR standard of goodness then he simply didn't make the world for us, and we're an accident, just as (almost) every other theory implies.
>>1210071
Children also "know" not to do dangerous things, yet if you left them alone long enough with a guy saying "hey, stick a fork in the power plug, it's actually really cool!" long enough then you know what's going to happen eventually.
Especially if you're a fucking all powerful, omniscient god you insufferable cunt.
>>1209515
I wanted to post this.
But it's already posted
so this.
>>1209586
God defines good and evil, so his free will isn't a problem in this regard.
The answer is that God is evil or neutral, insane or non-existing. Basically all of Christianity is wishful thinking and atheists or gnostics are right about a nature of omnipotent God. There also a possibility of a weak God who just couldn't do work perfectly.
>>1211632
Then you don't believe that God is completely merciful and benevolent? You think that he's in part malevolent?
>>1211652
Malevolent only describes God's relationship toward us, it says nothing about good or evil. It's entirely possible that malevolence toward humanity is the morally right course of action, but we find it convenient to believe faithfully that it isn't.
>>1211721
>It's entirely possible that malevolence toward humanity is the morally right course of action
That's exactly why morals shouldn't be based on religious thinking, just look at this absurd remark.
Also, why would you worship a being that wants harm to befall upon you?
>>1211721
Morally right in relation to what? Tell me then, what is there besides God and humanity? Where's the morality in a God that just decides for himself what's moral and what's immoral, like some sort of dictator?
If "malevolence toward humanity is the morally right course of action" that's because he himself made it so, and that's evil and immoral.
>>1211766
You probably wouldn't want to worship a harmful God, which is probably why most people don't. They take it on faith that we have the nice God, and if we don't what is there to do anyway but submit?
>>1211816
> what is there besides God and humanity
Aliens, they are infinities more moral than us and we are threat to their harmonic society.
>>1211816
>and that's evil and immoral
You just decided that was "evil and immoral" arbitrarily
>>1211860
No, society as a whole has decided what's evil and immoral, and that's what you live for. That's why you don't go to the bible trying to claim that keeping slaves is okay.
Also, God can arbitrarily decide what's "evil and immoral", can't he? Do you have a problem with that too? Or you are afraid of questioning it and going to hell?
Wellll....
>>1211875
Or society is just plain wrong about god's motivation. His motivations, opinions, morality, are almost ceartainly totally alien to ours exactly because of his omnipotence.
Stop thinking abou morality or good and right so anthropocentrically
>>1211905
And That's How Calvinists Came About, Son
>>1211875
If we accept that morals are arbitrary, then the next thing to decide who the arbiter will be. The theory of assigning them to God is that it's supposed to make it more difficult to wriggle out of your own rules or adapt them to suit yourself, and the idea of an ordered and meaningful universe will give your own ideas of rightness a different character. To put it in a cynical way, you give your morals to God so that he can protect and dignify them
>>1211919
Eh. If there was a true heaven, you'd be able to do as you please, but if you can't commit evil, then you pretty much have no say in your existence.
Unless of course god let's you kill virtual hookers in his God simulation. No harm. No foul.
>pretend christians trying too hard to handwave their pleb tier religion
>>1211914
So you can just spew shit about morality, good and right as if they were some kind of undecipherable divine concept, but people can't threat it as a human made concept?
>>1211926
>arbitrary
>decide who the arbiter (individual?) will be
You really don't see anything wrong with living in a dictatorial regime?
>>1211940
Heaven is Rockstar Games?
>>1211947
Which leads me to another question.
Is killing virtual hookers a sin?
Can you be a good christian and play violent video games.
And if so, would god let you play murder simulations in heaven?
>>1211970
> Is killing virtual hookers a sin?
Yes.
>>1211997
Can you cite the Bible passage that explains this? I'm genuinely interested.
>>1212099
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZdmfbuUFBg
>>1212108
Bible not the 700 club. The 700 club is not an authority on religion. They break the hell out of the wealth rules.
>>1211970
It's a virtual sin and will get yourself thrown in virtual hell for all virtual eternity, with virtual fire, virtual torture and virtual everything.
>>1212125
Kind of like robot hell then?
>>1211947
Of course they can
Just don't impose on God human standards for morality, that's all
Plus, ther still is (albeit it being almost nonexistant) a possibility that God's morality is akin to human, because human morality is still in the spectrum of all possible moralities
>>1212244
If you think that you can't understand morality because it's a concept out of your reach, you shouldn't be arguing over it to begin with, nor should be regarding things as moral or immoral, good or bad.
>>1212284
It's not a concept out of reach, because it is still in the spectrum of possible moralities. It might just be completely alien, therefore requiring much more work to be deciphered.
My point is we shouldn't assume a "good" omnipotent God's notion of good and bad are akin to ours if we see the world as immoral, because, if he is omnipotent, and "good" (in his alien sense of morality), he wil make a "good" world, wich might as just seem to us "evil" in our moral sense
>>1212311
So you're fine with disregarding your whole "moral sense" if God tells you to do so? If God told you to kill a children you would do it?
Why didn't he made our sense of morality equal to his? That would get rid of a lot of questions. Ah, my bad, we can't understand how he thinks, so there's no use in asking these kind of question, right?
>he wil make a "good" world, wich might as just seem to us "evil" in our moral sense
Yeah, not very worthy of worship, if you ask me.
>>1211632
If he can act within the parameters of good while retaining free will, then so can humans. Whether he creates the rules or not is irrelevant.
>>1212355
No. My moral sense is still mine, and has evolved within my species, in a world of His creation, most likely an accident, because, if he made the world for us, he wouldn't bother giving us another set of morals. He would make our moral sense the same as his if he hadn't disregarded us as an accident and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (wich we most possibly are).
And no, such a God is not very worthy of worship. He might even chucle at our notions of a God.
If he even exists of course, and he is omnipotent, wich is an almos nonexistant possibility in all the imaginable reasons for the existance of our universe.
>>1211940
I don't know man, I think God would let you do whatever in his perfect simulation, like conquer worlds and it'll feel great, and also there would be no foul because it's not real, and it's your reward.
>>1212376
Your God is quite human-like, committing accidents, bothering about things...
>>1212430
>2+2 = 5
>(Some random dude at the local bakery this morning)
Now you tell me, why do you think that this quote of yours is true?
>>1212447
I don't know, he's famous.
>>1212447
"It is what it is, nigga"
-Aquinas
How does that equate to 2+2=5?
>>1212484
I'm not saying that this equates to that, all that I'm saying is that you can't simply take a random quote as truth.
>>1212413
That makes sense. Touché
So perhaps it isn't an accident? Perhaps he made it so we learn morality the hard way, because it isn't moral to just instill morality in someone? Perhaps we just can't see the big picture? Perhaps we were created as some force to oppose the main object of the universe, making our appearance and evolution logically explainable?
There can be a whole myriad of reasons as alien as these and even more, because an omnipotent mind would be completely and absolutely alien to ours, that's for sure. Not that it's MORALITY would be, but it's rationale or whatnot.
>>1211603
This is implying God left them alone with Satan instead of him deceiving them in secret.
>>1212570
But then how do you justify this enormous amount of souls through history who just accepted things as they were and died immoral?
>Perhaps
You see, I just think that's unhealthy to just keep making hundreds of assumptions like these because in the end they will not get you anywhere. Plus you're basically making them on the go, with nothing to back them up or reason to think of them as valid. You can literally apply this type of thinking to anything and it will wield you nothing.
>>1212619
Why allow Satan into the garden? Why not contain him on the opposite side of the universe? Why allow Satan to have unsupervised contact with humans?
>>1209510
Judeo-Chrisitian philosophy is stupid and shallow.
Only Jesus' discourses and late prophetic writings are of any value.
The biblical creation accounts are literally bronze age mythology tier.
Eastern and Hellenistic philosophies are much more complete and comprehensive.
>>1211947
It's more like a monarchy, with a very hands-off monarch
>>1209515
>why are we not in there?
>>1209599
/thread
>>1209510
Maybe life is a testing ground, from which God can pick and choose the people he see quality in, and punish those in which he does not.
Maybe God is imperfect, and just a creator with no power to regulate or destroy.
Maybe God does not care for good and evil on Earth, as in his mind, our lives on Earth are of little importance compared with the one after death
It's not hard to come up with theories if you have a little fantasy.
>>1213277
>no Satan in garden
>Adam and Eve never given chance to exercise free will
>no fall
>no salvation
It's almost like you've never read the bible and are pretending to be retarded...oh wait
Holy fuck just read it already and shut the fuck up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga%27s_free_will_defense
>>1216535
Why create beings that can fall in the first place if you're intending to save them later? Why not just skip the fall and have them be innocent from the outset? Why create beings that have free will if you are going to punish them for making the only free choice?
>>1216968
Demiurge
>>1212682
Mow, i don't realy believe in souls so...
For me our morality has a biological basis + historical and social complexities, so, if god didn't make us moral in his sense of morality, there probably is a higher reason and he would probably "forgive" us for being wrong in his view.
Basically my point of making all these assumptions is trying to point out that the sheer number of possible scenarios where a god with a different morality than ours could let us end up having a moral system different from his. Think a library of babel-esque kind of possibility numbers.
Plus the number of probable worlds that could exist with a non-good god, non-omnipotent god, or even without a god is pretty much way much more than we can even fathom.
What is evil?
>>1216292
We live now to test if we are worthy then.
>>1209515
There is no evil in heaven so therefore there is no free will in heaven. Why would anyone want to live like a mindless drone for all of eternity? Honestly I'd rather go to hell.
The best of all possible worlds was neither the best, nor possible, nor a world.
>>1209510
Who said that God didn't want to create evil with good.
>>1209510
>>1216168
The question of evil presented is either a question among fellow theists, or it is an objection to theism presented by atheists.
If it is the latter, then atheists must give proper demonstrative proof for the existence of evil, and how it is evil for God to create evil or let evil things happen.
If we get beyond the petty emotion and talk about how babies die, we see that in fact atheists have nothing to stand on when talking about moral arguments.
If an atheist wants to say that God cannot exist because if he did, then he would be evil, and God cannot be evil, then they must:
Define what evil is on their worldview
Show that evil exists
Show that it would be evil for God to allow evil to happen, or to create evil
Show that this conception of "evil" matters to the concept of theism, i.e. if a theist concedes to what they call an "evil" God, then so what? What does that show?
They need to give proper arguments for all of these in order to be philosophically cogent. Going on rants is a good way to provoke people and stir the emotions of people, but if they want to sound like intelligent human beings then they need to present proper arguments.
The reason this is important is because we have different conceptions of what "evil" is, for orthodox Muslim theologians, evil is simply what God prohibits. So it is impossible for God to do evil by definition. For atheists however, evil might be "letting suffering happen", but then why should the theist be scared by what atheists call an "evil God" if our conceptions of evil are completely different!?
And الله knows best
>>1219112
OP got roasted
>>1209510
The better question is why the supposed "test" you need to pass to get into heaven is so damn unfair and nonsensical where nothing points towards such a test really existing. Why am I not this perfect light vessel that floats around and interacts with other vessels who all started out with the same values and the same scripture ready at hand instead of it being a lottery of where one is born where one might not encounter a bible their entire life. Why am I this inconvenient meatbag that gets sick and can be subject to getting killed by natural disasters and wild animals?
>>1209687
So why do you thrust the bible as being some kind of universal truth, if our language and mind is too limited to understand God? Why did'nt God make people with a better comunication so we can understand his work fully?
He didn't want earth to be paradise, that's Heaven. Giving humans free will is allowing whatever. If he wanted.Earth to be some paradise utopia, we wouldn't have free will. We are an experiment. He love his us though.
>>1209510
>Why was it so impossible for God to create a perfect world without evil?
He did. He also created this one. Would you rather him not have?
See: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/03/15/answer-to-job/
Because evil is as innate in the fabric of creation as good. You cant have one without the other, just as you cant have matter without space to go between it.
A physicist will tell you mass and nothingness are not independent things but peaks and troughs on one continuous field. Same thing as good and evil. It is literally the most unavoidable fact of reality.
