Was the statement, "If Hitler didnt interfere with his generals, war against USSR would be better for Germany." real? If Yes, how much better?
>>1191792
They be saying that Hitler shouldn't have gone after Stalingrad an instead should've gone straight to the oilfields or somethin
The thing is, even the generals were idiots. Sure you have Gunderian, Manstein, Kluge, but you also had way too many idiots convinced they knew better. When they failed they would blame hitler. Look at Paulus,
He commanded the 6th army, Germany's strongest, well equipped army.
Instead of encircling, and rushing in when Russia was on the retreat and taking Stalingrad in weeks, he sat back ordered/waited for the Luftwaffe to turn the damn thing to rubble, then ordered his tanks in.
When he could of pulled out, he didn't.
A whole army annihilated
>>1192368
paulus was a real asshole and got a bunch of guys killed but he was a staff officer with little training on the elements of warfare and no prior experience in the field .
>>1191792
Most dictators hamstring their military and cause worse results to flow from their actions.
>>1191792
Nah.
>lack of manpower
>lack of superior firepower
>lack of superior tech
>overreliance on the same tactic
>no real overarching strategy
Germany was doomed from the start.
>>1192368
It was not a Hitler's order to enter in a ruined Stalingrad when no one want to do this? I mean every one in Germany military was like "fuck this goddamn city"
>>1192524
You forget superior genetics senpai
>>1191792
Yes, the generals would have retreated in 42 or 43 and employed a mobile defense on a better line. Without a change of the political landscape they wouldn´t have won the war.
>>1193831
And that would've accomplished literally nothing.
>>1191833
Wasn't it Hitler's plan to seize the Caucasusian oil fields and other economical regions where as his generals such as Mannstein wanted to take Moscow.
>>1191792
It would not have made a difference.
The Soviet Union had a larger industrial base, larger population and larger military.
The Soviets were willing to win at any price.
Zhukov's counter offensive at Moscow in December 1941 brought barbarossa to a halt.
That stopped nazi momentum dead.
After Stalingrad, nazis were finished.
Kursk permanently ended nazi offensive efforts.
Bagration crushed Army Group Centre.
No hope for nazis, Hitler or their ilk.
>>1193923
Most of the soviet factories were in Europe, if Germany had managed to push further in and capture them, Russia would've been left with nothing but cannon fodder and piddling rifles with barely any ammo.
>>1193759
youre right
>lack of superior genetics
>>1193958
Industry was moved toward the urals, which would have meant hundreds more miles.
Your "IF" is based on what? What counterfactuals would be needed to bring about such a drastic difference?
>>1193904
Wrong. It would have made it considerably harder for the soviets to break through the denser german lines and would have allowed for more strategic manouvres by the germans. Also probably some soviet military fuckups more.
There's really nothing Germany could've done. Where Germany had every short term advantage such as organization and initial firepower, the Russians had every long-term advantage such as resources, manpower, time, and distance needed to travel to capture targets.
Even if the Germans captured Leningrad, Moscow, the Russians still had ever more land to fall back to and regroup for a counterattack.
sure the counterattacks would get weaker and weaker with every attempt, but Germany would have to commit more and more to cover what would certainly be a 5000 kilometer frontline if they tried to drive to the Urals or Central Asia.
Time was against the Germans from day one, as fuel shortages were already starting to show their face in the Wehrmacht even during and after the Battle of Moscow in 1941.
>>1193958
The Soviets did an almost herculean task in dismantling their entire industrial base and hauling it to the other side of the urals. Read up about it, the logistics and manpower it took to achieve that are absolutely mind-numbing.
>>1194034
Excellent post, B/rother!
>>1192368
Kluge was imbecile at best, he basically ruined operation typhoon
>>1191792
If Hitler didnt interfere with his generals the whole front would collapsed after russian winter counter offensive in 1941 in the first place.
Hitler did listen to his Generals most of the time.
This meme comes from Manstein and others surviving the war but Hitler and SS not surviving the war.
Manstein gets to write his book defending himself and who the fuck would have defended Hitler?
Not that Manstein wans't goat.
>>1193958
About half of ammunition of the USSR was produced in Barnaul. Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass.
>>1195003
I'm not that guy, but i would like to know where do you get your information? And I mean everyone.
Which books or what the hell do you do to know those things
>Didn't even bother to build and mass-produce a heavy/strategic bomber, crème de la crème of modern weaponry.
>spent resource on building super-tank that bound to stuck in the middle of marsh and freeze.
>any hope in winning the war.
>>1195078
>>Didn't even bother to build and mass-produce a heavy/strategic bomber, crème de la crème of modern weaponry
Ju 488. They tried.
>>1193923
With lend and lease you are right, there only was a slim chance for the nazis too win. It could have been way more costly and drawn out for the soviets to pull of a bagration given that the the Wehrmacht would have taken a defensive stance in 42 or 43 and wouldn´t have tried fall blau and Kursk.
>>1194068
care to elaborate?, I don't know much about the eastern front on WWII
>>1191792
it wouldn't have started hiter didnt have a good reason to invade russia other than oil and living space which he could have gotten from the middle east
>>1197020
>tried
It was the best strategic bomber of the war you twat.
>>1191792
>is a statement real
am i reading wittgenstein?
>>1199917
Invading the USSR and hoping the political structure crumbles was literally the more realistic option than trying to take the middle east.
>>1191792
Most of Hitler's interference was beneficial. Germany wouldn't have made it as far as it did without him.
>>1199925
>the best strategic bomber of the war
If Ju 488 is the best strategic bomber then what is B-29 and B-17?
>>1199925
>best strategic bomber of the war
>prototype
>>1193914>>1191833
This, you defeat Moscow, you defeat the Russians. Hitler saw it as a great humiliation to Stalin take Stalingrad.
It was a wast of time, resources, and people.
>>1199925
That is objectively false, what with the Ar 234 having existed and flown combat sorties.
It was also the last German aircraft to fly over Britain.
>>1199925
Yet none were ever built. Retard go back to /b/
