One of the better ideas humanity has had.
Why do the people that pan it for minor fuckups (more made up entirely by the press than actual fuckups) forget the massive boons it has made to trade?
If it only stayed a trade union nobody would be bitching.
This thread would work better in /pol/. Most of the fuck ups are current events.
>>1176055
More like: if it had been an economic AND fiscal union with a common defence policy and an elected president, no one would be bitching.
>>1176068
I'm sure a lot of people would be bitching about that.
>>1176068
From the outset that is, rather than "one step at a time"
>>1176053
NATO proxy state.
>>1176074
>suka blya pindasy ebanye
The euro is not a minor fuckup. It is a complete economic disaster, and you would have to be stupid to deny it. The organisation is also actively anti-democratic and aggressively expansionist.
>>1176053
CdG was absolutely right about not letting Brits in. Man was an absolute cunt but he had good political sense.
Schengen is an amazing concept, one of the best things that happened on the continent in the 20th century. The financial and economic matters... less so.
>>1176098
He only did it so he could finalise CAP
>>1176084
>anti democratic
>bad
>>1176110
Yeah, unaccountable technocracy is so much better.
>>1176053
>the massive boons it has made to trade
Oh you mean the giant protectionist wall across Europe that prevents other prospering countries from signing independent trade deals with economically stagnant EU countries? Yeah its totally awesome for trade.
>>1176123
Americans are the worst protectionists
>>1176053
Fuck off Schulz and Juncker
>>1176053
Fuck off Merkel,Schulz and Juncker
>>1176053
>One of the better ideas humanity has had
No.
With enough luck the brits leaving will be the force that kicks down the entire rotten structure
>>1176110
I'm critic of democracy, but technocratic oligarchy has all the problems of democracy without the actual checks and balances that give it a modicum of legitimacy and stability
>>1176068
If that had been the case I would literally be marching with pitchforks and throwing bricks at EU buildings right now.
The EU at this point is nothing but a an empire-building (in the business sense of the word) pet project for politicians from small irrelevant countries. Its literally there so losers like Juncker and Verhofstadt can have a bigger political arena to play in than they had in their own min-countries. Being president of Luxemburg isnt all that glamorous, so they try and build a new empire to rule over.
>>1176053
It's a lifejacket for western powers to stay relevant on the world stage and nothing more. Of course countries like britain/france/ germany could perfectly be relevant on their own but dickless politicians prefers a bureaucratic run 'union' to better pressure 3rd world countries.
The EU must be federalized. Make the countries semi autonomous states and the EU a federalized republic. Until then, it is only half assing what is necessary. There is no need for Europe to be divided as it is.
>>1176181
kill yourself
Europe must put Europe first if the EU is to prosper and survive
>>1176181
By that logic, why not make the world a big federation?
And I'm gonna rule it.
>>1176181
This, federal state for wholly Eurooean matters. Refugee crisis would be solved so much quicker.
>>1176181
I could get behind that
>>1176053
Yes because extreme protectionism and banker cronyism really helps the common person by keeping products artificially expensive not to mention having an undemocratic process and federal goal in mind is not in the interests of the members states nor their people
The EU exists to make it easier for big companies to make money. This is the very core of the union, it's fundamental founding principle. For anything else it is an incredibly poor tool as evidenced by the recent crises.
>>1176181
United States of Europe when?
>>1176263
Over my dead body
>>1176253
>not even accepting your business overlords
Bad goy
Bad bad goy
>>1176053
Because no one but rich international businessmen cares about muh trade.
>>1176270
>he says while typing on an american designed computer manufactured in China with ores mined in Africa
>>1176264
>not wanting a United Europe.
get out.
>>1176127
>EU isn't a huge boon to American trade
>the EU is anti-American
When will this meme die?
>>1176280
yeah and prices would be cheaper without the EU corporate protectionism racket or have you forgotten industrial and agricultural subsidies plus tarrifs on non EU goods?
>>1176263
Hopefully never.
>>1176280
Yeah and they have computers in every other first world country on the planet despite the absence of the EU.
Hell they even have computers in Russia.
>>1176263
Not gonna happen because Brexit is thankfully probably going to happen causing a domino effect.
>>1176309
Did americans really that afraid being a second class world power that can't compare with might of entire unites europe?
>>1176316
China annexing asian Russia is more realistic than England leaving the EU.
>>1176258
I'm european and I'm from a pretty wealthy country with the best infrastructure for economic and technological progress in the world. I just feel like unity and supporting other people is a pretty good value.
>>1176323
really because even the Yougov poll is showing leave has a lead both by phone and online which I doubt most people expected from them. Couple it with leave voters are more motivated to go and vote Id say its going to be very skin of the teeth for either side without some serious vote manipulation in which case it would prove the illegitimacy of both the EU and the government
>>1176323
Tell that to the bookies.
>>1176319
Only thing the US is afraid of is the possibility that it's honey pot might cease existing.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/663665/Barack-Obama-Britain-back-queue-Brexit
>>1176258
I am from the Netherlands.
>>1176053
>uniting is a new idea
The Romans did it. The Muslims did it. The Chinese did it. It works out great everytime. Until it stops working.
Circle of life.
But yes, the EU should absolutely remain. The only reason people don't want it is because of the culture meme. Even though the only real differences in all cultures is basically how people dress and style of music. and changes drastically each decade.
>>1176065
fuck ups always happen, no matter what system of government or how unified a region is. They're massive, complex, and imperfect. But the fuck ups that happened simply happened because they were going to happen, regardless of of the EU existed or not.
>>1176325
>with the best infrastructure for economic and technological progress in the world
Which is exactly why you should be against an EU federation. Because with an EU federation the bulk of decisions will be made by people from countries that are not interested in technology but agriculture. It's the same thing as old people voting on online piracy, they don't get it, and it doesn't affect them at all.
>>1176166
Don't give the EU domestic powers. It's that simple. Empires rise and fall naturally.
The EU has a chance to start moving Europe forward, and Europe is stagnating. You know there are only 2 things that kept Europe from becoming like the Middle East after WWII: The US and their unification during their cold war.
the EU should adhere to libertarian policies. They should try to be like the early US. Weak central government with stronger local ones.
>>1176319
>The EU makes it harder to exert its influence, not easier
>This is what EUtards u ironically believe
>>1176258
>Refugees wouldn't leave a wartorn region is Merkel didn't exist
I'm surprised you know how to read and type things.
>>1176367
>The Romans did it. The Muslims did it. The Chinese did it. It works out great everytime. Until it stops working.
The difference is the countries actually want to join, you fucking retard.
>>1176380
Harder for the US*
>>1176264
You already act and dress like Americans. Already watch all of our movies and listen to our music. speak our language (we're so awesome we took it from the English). We saved half of your entire continent from total collapse.
You're already American. You've been successfully Imperialized. You're welcome.
>>1176367
>>1176372
>Even though the only real differences in all cultures is basically how people dress and style of music. and changes drastically each decade.
You're an American. This isn't Kansas vs Texas. EU countries are culturally, economically and demographically very different.
You seriously think a state could 100% benefit all these different countries? No.
>>1176390
When Empires in the Middle Ages defeated armies, they had to win the hearts and minds of the people they conquered. Rome and China were a bit heavy handed, but the Muslim Empires were preferred by the natives.
The early US is another example.
Also, wanting to join or joining because an army invaded doesn't matter. Those empires prospered, and so did the lands under those Empires. You are focusing on events that have literally no impact on whats going on.
>>1176331
Sources?
Every poll I've seen gives the lead to remain
>>1176381
Refugees won't come if it is made clear that they will not be received. See: Australia.
Merkel made it appear that refugees were wanted in Europe (a fact that was abused by the people who arrange transfers from MENA to Europe), when in fact they were not.
Also
>all the refugees are Syrian
lmao
>>1176396
>EU countries are culturally very different
Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.
Also, culture between regions of the US are very different. you are confusing history for culture.
> economically
Thats why it should be put under a unified economic umbrella. The more diverse an economy is, the better.
>demographically very different.
Oh, does Eastern Europe only have 40-50 years olds, while Spain only has 1-10 year olds? Does Norway have a 3rd gender? wtf does this even mean.
>You seriously think a state could 100% benefit all these different countries? No.
Yes. Culture and demographics aren't legitimate answers and mean nothing.
>>1176379
Thats essentially what the EU is now, a weak confederacy binding countries together without a strong central leadership. Everytime this set up is tried, like early America you cited, it fails. That's why there's no libertarian states, its fucking retarded
>>1176421
>Not really. I've been to Yugoslavia. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.
>>1176410
>See: Australia.
Refugee loses everything in war. "Hey, we can walk to another country, or take a boat there. Let's go all the fucking way to Australia!"
You are fucking retarded. Lebanon has more refugees than anyone else and it's been bombed every few years by some Jews from Europe.
>Merkel made it appear that refugees were wanted in Europe (a fact that was abused by the people who arrange transfers from MENA to Europe), when in fact they were not.
No, she took in refugees because she's not a monsterous greedy psychopath like the Gulf Arab states who started the wars and fund ISIS, and take ZERO refugees. I guess you must love Saudi Arabia, you certainly agree with all of their policies.
Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.
>>all the refugees are Syrian
Wtf does this have to do with anything? did you stroke out for second?
>>1176427
>like early America you cited, it fails.
But America became a dominant world power without even needing to colonize.
So did the Romans while they had this system.
So did the Muslims.
So did the Germans.
>>1176429
I've been to Yugoslavia.
wars happen. They didn't happen because of culture or demographics. They happened because of influences from the USSR, history under the Ottomans, and politic events.
Germans use to be at constant war with each other. Same with the people of Great Britain.
>Hey guys look, war happened one time, it must have happened because of the stupid reason I said, instead of the natural ebb and flow of Empires.
I'm happy European governments ignore people like you. You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>1176407
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/24/yougov-view-eu-referendum-polling/
then they changed the criteria because you gov didnt like the answer
>>1176439
People lack basic Empathy these days, there is no point in trying to compromise.
>>1176421
Holy hell. Why do you bother? You're not European, have visited some tourist hot spots and haven't been in every European country. With that out of the way let's get down to your post:
You start with
>The only differences are superficial
and follow up with
>Language
Seriously? Language differences are superficial? Not all European people are keen on speaking English not to mention trying to build up a system where everyone would get their services 100% with their own mother tongue.
>Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures
False. Europe is strongly divided between the South and the North when it comes to family. Just look at the European welfare state models. We value different thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_social_model#Welfare_state_in_Europe
>Thats why it should be put under a unified economic umbrella. The more diverse an economy is, the better.
Refer to my previous post: >>1176372
EU hasn't been able and won't be able to serve the Economic models of all the nations in the EU without someone getting the short end of the stick. The short end of the stick would come to Eastern and Northern Europe, who have economic models and systems vastly different from the big 3 which would be calling the shots.
>Oh, does Eastern Europe only have 40-50 years olds, while Spain only has 1-10 year olds? Does Norway have a 3rd gender? wtf does this even mean.
Strawman. Demographically i mainly meant population. This ties with the point about economics.
You do underestimate the cultural differences between Europeans. It's just that these differences between ideology, lifestyle and opinions have not come under test. Some countries are more conservative, some more progressive. Others are more liberal and others more authoritan.
There is no way a satisfactory solution would be reached when creating the EU state democratically. It could only be forced. The negotiations would fall off at the language question.
>>1176421
>I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial
That's why trying to start a business in Calabria, Italy would go exactly it would in Bergen, Norway.
>>1176489
Here are some others:
>model of minimum wage
Nordic or continental model?
>consumer regulation
Wine isn't allowed to be sold in stores in Finland and Sweden. In Sweden you can only buy 3,5% beer in stores. How do you imagine this would fly over in Spain or France?
>guns
Tires are a deadly weapon, regards the British.
>form of welfare
The nordic, the continental or the Southern? How much welfare? This varies so much between cultures.
>taxation
How much?
>workers rights
Acceptable work hours etc
>employers rights
What does the employer need to give the worker for example.
>workers unions
Good or bad?
>Religion or no religion?
>Gay marriage?
>Trans rights
>Refugees or no refugees?
The EU would be an union dominated by the cultures and ideologies of the Germans and the French - and those who think alike to them. The others have only to lose.
>>1176456
Yugoslavia collapsed because serbs were the dominant demographic. The other states wanted nothing to do with serbs.
The EU parliament in it's current state is dominated by France, Britain and Germany. Some EU countries are already having trouble with this.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/638925/Poland-Bulgaria-EU-membership-Lord-Ashcroft-study-Brexit
>>1176439
>Wtf does this have to do with anything? did you stroke out for second?
Very funny. You talk so much about war, that was my point. Not all refugees are from Syria which is a warzone.
>You are fucking retarded. Lebanon has more refugees than anyone else
You say i'm retarded than agree with my point. MOST OF THE SYRIANS ARE IN ME, BECAUSE THEY ARE FLEEING WAR. MOST OF THE REFUGEES COMING TO EUROPE WILL PASS BY SAFE COUNTRIES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FLEEING A WAR.
The majority of the refugees coming into my country are not Syrian, but are from countries where if they applied legally they would not have been refugee status.
>No, she took in refugees because...
I never stated why she took refugees in. I stated that she made it appear that they were wanted by the Europeans. Which is not at all true.
But hey, continue on feeling smug about how right you are. Go on.
>Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.
EU is far more multicultural than any other nation/union on Earth. Also you know nothing of the political climate in Europe. Absolutely nothing. Most Europeans are pissed off at both sides, the far-left and far-right shit flinging.
>>1176485
Fuck off. You are clearly willingly misinterpetring me so that you can remain in your hugbox where everyone who disagrees with you is the new hitler.
>>1176421
>Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language
ayy
>Nations can't trade with each other unless they are controlled by a super-state!
>>1176439
I'll just analyze this a bit more, since it is so pants out retarded.
>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.
>European culture needs exposure to other cultures
No. If you want to live in Europe, you learn the language and adjust your way of life so that it works within European cultures. Sure you can wear the Burqa, but don't expect that you're allowed to wear it into a bank or force your daughters to wear the Burqa. If you come to the Nordic Countries you have to accept that your children will be influenced by secular ideology.
No one shall be treated unequally, reads in the constitutions of all European countries. The same applies to you. You will not be given special privileges because your religion demands it
>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism.
First of all, for the majority of European countries the European period of nationalism was good. Most European countries are independent because of nationalism. It was only the Germans who took ethnic (underline the ethnic part). So don't think you can just wave the word nationalism around like it's somehow evil unto itself. You need to explain why it is bad, and differentiate between the types of nationalism you are talking about.
> Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.
Okay, show me one party or one politically significant group advocating war between European states and mass genocide.
>>1176546
>EU is far more multicultural than any other nation/union on Earth.
>>1176594
True, some African countries might have many different tribes. But the EU is very multicultural. Every country in the EU has its own culture and those countries all have regional cultures, subcultures and minority cultures.
>>1176053
>minor fuckups
>greek pensioners eating grass to survive
>let a million undocumented migrants in for no reason at all
>help overthrow Ukrainian government and precipitate the Ukrainian War
>minor fuckups
>>1176421
>Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.
How delusional are you?
>>1176439
>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism.
Europe is radicalising with nationalism because of exposure to other cultures. Adding more immigrants is like throwing petrol on the embers.
Landverraders please go
>>1176594
For real, yo. I'm not saying EU isn't multicultural but then you have countries like Indonesia and India.
>Not really. I've been to Europe
I've been to the USA, now let me tell you how to run your country. Or wait even better, let me tell you how to rule your entire continent.
>>1176594
EU as whole is very multicultural. Individual EU countries are not.
>>1176181
White Unified European Continent? How can Asia and America even compare.
>>1176684
If the centre get it's way they will be.
>>1176687
>White
Have you been to Paris or London recently?
>>1176459
>1% ahead with some 20% undecided
>>1176709
staying something is very different from becoming something. Your unification was wrought by war.
>>1176713
One war in nearly 250 years plus a few minor insurrections. It's not that much, really.
>>1176718
So the EU should unify by war? because its citizens dont desire unification.
>>1176732
Why not. Europe needs a good war nowadays anyway
>>1176704
Been to Venice ;) fucking Germanic polluted genes
>>1176053
>One of the better ideas humanity has had.
Agreed. Too bad it's also one of the worst implementations.
I don't give a shit about western delusions, but don't force us along. The moment EU federalizes, I'm seeking political asylum in Russia(and this is coming from an anti-Russian country national).
>>1176709
The United States was a state built on ideals.
European countries are already built on ideals.
Unified EU would not be built on new ideals, but trying to be a compromise between dozens of different ideals which is nearly impossible to do democratically. Of course you could militarily force a union, but that's not nice now is it.
A more closer comparison would be the U.S and Sweden trying to become one country with both countries agreeing democratically. Not just possible.
>>1176753
The Venice area is not germanized at all tho. If they looked white to you, it's because the italic stock is white.
>>1176253
I'm really amazed at how many people don't realise this. Big companies lobby for EU regulation completely because it kills small business that can't afford to have compliance departments, completely unaccountably. And TTIP couldn't exist without it.
>>1176325
You should look into the details of the EU rather than forming an opinion based on a general feeling about togetherness.
Why are Americans so retarded? Fuck off with your bullshit "muh states are so different" claims. You cunts don't even understand the concept of culture. Europeans are different from each other in a way Americans will never be.
>>1176813
It was literally one guy, calm down you autist.
>>1176819
I've literally heard at least 3 different Americans say that IRL. Not ALL of them are that retarded, but sadly most of them are.
What do you expect from a place where public schools are shit and where most people don't even travel outside of their country. Useless cunts.
>>1176053
>forget the massive boons it has made to trade
Such as? And keep in mind that the free trade zone existed before the EU, as did free movement.
>>1176773
What ideals are you talking about exactly ?
Cooperation and solidarity would be new ideals at the European level. But unifying around the old ones that we share, democracy, liberty, etc, is just fine.
>>1176770
>scared of a European federation
>okay with the Russian federation
I think you're the deluded one.
>>1176234
Good point, there should be a unified Europe-wide policy of shooting them if they try to cross the border.
>>1176827
>I've literally heard at least 3 different Americans say that IRL.
That's because Euros have a misconception of Amercia being one monolithic entity. It's to offset common misconceptions. It's an extreme statement because it's trying to offset preconceived notions Euros have of the US that are similarly extreme.
>>1176393
>ignoring the enormous cultural difference outside of media and entertainment
Ayyyyy lmao
>>1176776
That was my point, We Venetians are pure and our city is pure....Except for you know Gypsey thieves
>>1176823
Faudrait te calmer mon gars. T'énerver au point d'être incapable de fournir une réponse cohérente, et renoncer même à te faire comprendre, ça te mène à rien.
>>1176632
>greek pensioners eating grass to survive
Greece is the last people that should complain about EU. pay denbts
>>1176853
It's the fact that you have EU citizens living in 3rd world conditions that shows such a union to be insolvent.
>>1176851
J'suis désolé.
J'voulais juste leur montrer un peu de culture de chez nous, mais je me suis emporté. Merci de me remettre sur la bonne voie.
By the way what's up with the whole 'trade deal' meme that's been made a central issue of the brexit? You don't need a trade deal to trade with anyone you fucking knobs
>>1176813
From my experience, it's Americans who think a federalized EUis a terrible idea while its Europeans fro major hole countries that support it on the idea of a common "European" identity that doesn't actually exist.
>>1176870
From shithole*
>>1176831
We have more in common with Russian culture(both traditional and post-sov) than we have with western culture and the autistic culture the EU is trying to force down our throats.
Europe is a geographic reality and nothing more.
>>1176853
Greeks are being stabbed in the front by EU policy every day, They have the most reason to complain. It was Goldman Sachs that falsified the figures to get them in the eurozone.
There is no such thing as culture in first world developed nations.
I don't get why other yuros get so assblasted when American suggest that all Europeans are the same, they may as well be.
Literally name one massive cultural difference between Germany and Britain that isn't language.
>>1176880
Protestantism vs. Anglicanism
Free education vs paid education
Monarchy vs no monarchy
Privacy vs. safety
>>1176880
>white people have no culture
eat shit
>>1176880
Festivals, food, music, architecture, social mannerisms, etiquette, fitness culture/sports.
>>1176885
>Protestantism vs. Anglicanism
Religion has been irrelevant for about 200 years now.
>Free education vs paid education
Not culture
>Monarchy vs no monarchy
Also not culture
>Privacy vs. safety
Are you trying to imply that the British government value privacy over safety in any conceivable way?
>>1176886
White people do have culture, it's just uniform monolithic capitalist culture. But it's not just white people, this is the case for every economically advanced country. It just so happens that white people make up most of those countries.
>>1176895
That isn't true though.
And to the very minor extent that some vestiges of unique culture might remain it is trivial shit that wouldn't get in the way of a united Europe.
>>1176875
You some kind of Pole ?
Culture is irrelevant. A federalized EU won't stop you from drinking your homemade vodka.
>>1176919
>Responding to him at all
>>1176919
>You're just wrong
Except you haven't proved him wrong. I agree with you, but that's just a poor argument.
>>1176846
>We Venetians
A no pensavo che jero drio parlare co n'altro veneto. Mi no so mia de Venexia, ma quando so là pi che singani mi me pare vedare pi negri (vu cumpra) e cinesi (sti qua in zona Ciosa e laguna).
>>1176905
>That isn't true though.
Yes it is.
>And to the very minor extent that some vestiges of unique culture might remain it is trivial shit that wouldn't get in the way of a united Europe.
Yes it would. All European states are ethnic states that are centered around a central ethnicity, language, and culture. A united Europe would necessarily grate against that, and if a decision was made that pissed off any member state for any reason it would be very hard to get passed through.
Why in the world should Europe be united anyway? What's the point?
>>1176439
>Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism
Literally kys you disgusting cuck, I have no words for degeneracy of this degree
>>1176594
>dude whites are all the same lmao
>>1176919
1. I'm not American, I'm from Ireland.
2. I've noticed this a lot on 4chan, if you so much as concede a minor detail during an argument people will already start shouting "BTFO BTFO".
But how am I wrong exactly? We all wear the same clothes, act more or less the same way, consume similar media, and generally you can take someone from one European country and plop them in another without any real problems fitting in because there simply is no culture shock to be had in the first world.
However there is one thing that has yet to change, people still eat different food. To an extent.
>>1176936
>Yes it is.
Sure thing, bro.
Despite everyone in Europe wearing the same clothes, consuming similar media, consuming the same mass-marketed goods, working the same jobs and having fucking identical home lives there's some massive cultural difference because of old festivals that no one goes to and old sports that no one plays (whilst fucking everyone and their dog plays football).
I can agree that European states are centred around ethnicity (for now anyway) and language. But the concept of any kind of unique "culture" in the first world is simply an absolute lie that we're told is there our entire lives without ever really being told whatever it is.
>Why in the world should Europe be united anyway? What's the point?
I'm not pro-EU, I just think that the people getting asshurt about someone saying that there's no real national culture anymore are retarded and the entire planet would be better off if we just stopped pretending that there's anything unique or special about first world countries.
>>1176940
You fucking uncultured swine, there's music, fashion, and a profoundly embedded form of social conscience that differs greatly from one nation to another. You of all people should know that. A man from Connaught and one from Ulster or Meath aren't the same even if they're the "same" superficially. The same applies to a Dutch and a Flemish. The differences grow exponentially when you're comparing, let's say, a Spaniard to a Finn.
>>1176940
Ofcourse Padraig likes the EU. You're slurping up EU funds by the billions. Do you realise we, the taxpayers from different countries, are paying for that?
Tell me, do you also dress up in all orange in the 27th of april? Do you also feel happy when the 5th of december is coming up?
No because you dont even know what those things mean.
You can reunite with NI, but thats the end of it.
>>1176921
I'm Romanian. Our modern perception has always been highly russophobic, but between an European yoke that would destroy our way of life and a Russian yoke that would only influence the superficial aspects of our culture such as language, I'd take the Kremlin over Bruxelles in a heartbeat.
We do not need EU kommisars to come over here and dictate what is '''normal''' and '''civilized'''.
>>1176949
>globalization kills the crab
>>1176954
>Music
Yes, the same music that's largely derivative of American music.
Or are you talking about the folk music that old dudes listen to at the pub and no one plays outside of primary school?
>fashion
Fucking what fashion?
Jeans, shirts and non-descript shoes. How unique.
And more importantly there is "no profund embedded form of social consciousness". You can go all across this continent from Lisbon to Warsaw and not notice a significant difference.
> A man from Connaught and one from Ulster or Meath aren't the same
But they are.
At this stage in economic development regional differences mean nothing, people are increasingly become atomized individuals that behave surprisingly similarly.
>>1176958
None of the refugees are going to settle in Romania your country is poor enough as is.
>>1176181
This.
>>1176258
I'm French and to be honest, I agree with him.
>>1176936
>>1176936
The state that is most likely to leave the EU is made of three nations.
Germany is made of Germans (and Turks), but bavarians are closer to Austrians than to the guys from brandenburg.
France is too made of a lot of different cultures, from alsace to brittany, Normandy to corsica.
In short, culture is irrelevant.
Man, some people even want to drop the nation states and create an European union of regions.
The point of federalization would be to solve conflicts between the members more easily, to have more democratic control over the decisions that are taken at the European level, to have more influence over world issues and avoid having national politicians answer the demands of the people with "can't help it lol, everyone else is doing it", to have more solidarity between the rich and the poor...
>>1176977
Are you fucking retarded? Nobody is talking about refugees. The European vision of society and politics is incompatible with ours.
>>1176955
1. I don't like the EU
2. I already live in NI, so if anything I would be unifying with the Republic.
>Tell me, do you also dress up in all orange in the 27th of april? Do you also feel happy when the 5th of december is coming up?
Brilliant, national holidays are what's going to take down the EU.
Quality argument.
>>1176976
>You can go all across this continent from Lisbon to Warsaw and not notice a significant difference.
This is so hilariously wrong. I bet you never even left your home country, because if you had you'd know how stupid this sounds.
>>1176309
I'll kill you
>>1176993
Quality post
>>1176976
>You can go all across this continent from Lisbon to Warsaw and not notice a significant difference.
This guy
>>1176990
I have.
At worst you'll find most places don't do tea. That's the height of culture shock you would get leaving Ireland to anywhere else in Europe.
>>1176989
You just keep trivializing every single example of cultural differences you are given.
Your argument is basically "nothing is culture lel"
>>1176985
What do Romanians contribute to the EU? You guys are lucky to be even in the EU in the first place. Every eastern shithole right winger like you thinks that their nation has the better vision forward.
>>1176958
> between an European yoke that would destroy our way of life
What are you thinking of precisely ? I'm curious.
>>1177007
Try kissing a man on the mouth in the middle of Paris then try doing that in Warsaw or Sofia then get back to me
>>1177008
Here's the thing. In Europe the very fact that you can trivialize the so-called national culture should already be setting off alarm bells (and deep down you know shit like wearing lederhosen once a year is as trivial as you can be).
But you simply couldn't trivialize the differences between say Turkey and Iran, or any other less-developed countries. Because even things as major as the rule of law is fundamentally different.
It's impossible to ignore cultural distinctions in poor countries, it's hard to notice them in Europe.
>>1176976
>You can go all across this continent from Lisbon to Warsaw and not notice a significant difference.
less "refugees" the closer you get to Warsaw
>>1177018
Not him but probably something like
>take in all these muslim economic migrants we call refugees or else we fine you €250.000 for every one you dont take in
>No you cant sell those bananes they aren't bent the right shape
>Oh you want to democratically decide things for yourself? No can do Romania we are the EU we decide this for you.
>>1177015
Low cost labour and a marginal market (also arguably geopolitical advantages, but eh, as long as NATO is a thing what's the point).
You can rightfully argue that it's not nearly enough to warrant their admission, but they do provide something.
>>1177021
>Because even things as major as the rule of law is fundamentally different.
Do you know the difference between Common Law and Civil Law? Because Europe does not have a unified rule of law at all.
>>1177024
Not really, if you start from Lisbon you'll meet progressively more refugees until you're out of Germany, then they'll start decrease again.
>>1177015
>What do Romanians contribute to the EU?
We are a market for your shit products and a buffer zone between you and the Russians. Not your average Romanian, but politicians decided that we should be in EU. So fuck off.
>their nation has the better vision forward
There is no better vision, the state has to represent the people and we have evolved in completely different circumstances for hundreds of years. There is no one type of governance that fits from Lisabona to Vladivostok and there is no 'normal' European society, culture or morality.
>>1177019
There's parts of Northern Ireland where people would murder you for that.
It's not a cultural thing, it's an economic thing because poor people are always backwards as fuck.
>>1177008
He's right, Because the cultural differences are indeed trivial.
Who cares if I don't dress in orange on that day ?
I'm French and I don't eat snails or follow the Tour or Roland Garos or watch the parade on the 14 of July. And a lot of French people are the same as me on these cultural things and a lot are different too and that is a trivial matter that does not affect the state that we share.
>>1177031
So why are you angry that the EU will destroy your way of life? They provide you with the factories to work and the market to sell your goods to.
>>1176880
Sense of humour and it's acceptance in daily life is very different. Not saying Germans don't have one, but it is definitely very different
>>1177033
That wasn't what I was talking about.
I was more talking about how in Iran it's law that women have to wear burqas and homosexuality is punishable by death whereas Turkey is more secular.
Also, additionally literally all of Europe follows civil law with the exception of Britain & Ireland.
>>1177045
It's definitely a cultural thing you mong, most rich people in Bulgaria are as homophobic as your average working man.
You keep trying to project your own nation's society on to others', and it's just not working
>>1177048
>I spit upon my cultural heritage because I'm a fat nerd, so everybody else should do the same!
Ok Pierre
>>1177056
>That wasn't what I was talking about.
IT NEVER FUCKING IS WITH YOU.
You keep moving the goalposts so much that you completely lost sight of them.
Nothing is culture. Differences in legal systems on matter when they specifically support your argument. What's next?
>>1176053
>Autocratic, unelected, secretive organization
>one of the better ideas of humanity
Get rekt
>>1177052
I'm not a romanian. Notice the "their" in my post.
My point is that 2nd world countries admission is something wanted by the ruling class of both parties, so it's not a good argument to just call the gypsy out for being worthless, since the fault is on both.
Also I'm actually pro-EU as a concept, tho I hate the implementation.
>>1177057
You clearly haven't been following my argument.
My original point was that with economic advancement national culture starts to deteriorate progressively into a uniform capitalist culture.
The richest man in Bulgaria is still Bulgarian, poorer countries (and communities) in Europe still haven't been assimilated into full westernized states and with economic advancement eventually they will, as their culture is chiefly an extension of their economic conditions. This is even reflected in your example of rich people, because the highest class of Bulgaria are peanuts compared to the highest class of Britain, France or Germany.
>>1177018
Westerners want a nanny state that dictates everything and pushes for an ideology that is in vogue. Our society is molded by Byzantine civilization and our perception of governance, secularism, freedom and the role of the individual in society are completely different.
Something which at this point we can still get away with to a certain extent since the laws we are dictated by the EU can be ignored in most cases(both by the citizens and law enforcement), something which won't be the case if we are part of an European superstate.
>>1177052
That was not my comment, but Europeans made sure that our industry is destroyed and that our farmers cannot compete with imports thanks to regulations upon regulations and the monopoly of supermarket chains(Kauffland, Billa etc) that kill any sort of local competition.
>>1176393
This retard
We are mostly influenced by footballers desu, do americans still wear t-shirts 3 times bigger than they need to be?
You watch all of our actors
listen to our music
Speak our language
WW2 meme, Hitler declared war on you after Jap did the stupid
why do I bother
>>1177059
What are you talking about retard ?
I don't spit on my cultural heritage. I have one and I like it, it is different from that of other people in my country in trivial ways and that doesn't matter to the state.
You're deluded if you think that European countries have monolithic cultures.
>>1177065
I'm shifting the goalposts, you just have shitty reading comprehension.
>Differences in legal systems on matter when they specifically support your argument.
Let me explain.
Iran executing people in public for being gay is a big deal, that is clearly tolerated by the Iranian people if not endorsed. Obviously this reflects culture.
Britain having a monarch is something you wouldn't even notice, it is for all practical purposes trivial. This doesn't necessarily reflect culture on the count that Ireland doesn't have a monarch yet may as well be Britain: Fun-Size.
>>1177095
*I'm not shifting
>>1177095
> that is clearly tolerated by the Iranian people if not endorsed
Source? I've actually been to Iran and that's not what my anecdotal evidence suggests.
Either way, you are constantly setting arbitrary limits on what can be considered a significant difference in culture/law/whatever. Limits that just happen to support your argument.
>>1177073
Got it. Yeah the EU in concept is a good thing to compete with larger markets like US and China but instead of relying on the European 2nd world eastern neighbors for all their labor force they dismantle the borders for foreign hordes and destroy the common European cultural brotherhood.
>>1176899
>Are you trying to imply that the British government value privacy over safety in any conceivable way?
Germans value privacy over safety. This doesn't always translate into govt actions but it has done in the past. Look at google street view for germany for example, or the right to be forgotten.
>>1177102
No see, the foreign hordes are not coming here for manpower, they're coming here to break down the current political blocks. It's about creating a much greater politically loyal working class and wear down the political power of the exceedingly swingey lower middle class.
Does it sound familiar to you (I'm assuming you're american)?
>>1177101
I say tolerated because it still happens, the Shah wasn't tolerated yet this is.
I don't know if it's actually endorsed.
>>1176053
It was a good idea, but implemented and controlled by morons.
>>1177102
What is happening is that Eastern European countries play the role of markets for western goods and a source of cheap labour. The EU has no interest in the development of local industry and has taken measures against both industrialization and international commerce as we aren't allowed to export wherever we want, while in the European market we have maximum quotas. This being no different than the bullshit that we had under the Iron Curtain.
>common European cultural brotherhood
There is no ''''European'''' brotherhood. We have more in common with Turks and post-soviet Asian countries than with Westerners.
Europe is geography - nothing less, nothing more.
>>1177126
well... you can say that about just about everything
Why are Belgians so weird?
>>1177120
Yeah same thing happens here its a shame. Voting should be a privilege for those with a job and no welfare or who served in the country's military otherwise the socialism will get out of hand.
>>1177084
Not being able to sell toxic meat and having to build ramps for wheelchairs in public buildings won't destroy your way of life man.
People in my country have different ideas on governance, secularism and the role of the individual too. They still all have their own way of life.
And an European superstate would care more about Romanian farmers than a group of leaders from various countries whopursue their national interest. Then you would have the advantages of the current union without its faults.
>byzantine heirs
lol.
Also, do you want to give back that part of transsylvania to Hungary ?
Romania is a multicultural state already.
The mistake was adding post-communist countries
>>1176390
>The difference is the countries actually want to join
Pretty sure Romans and Muslims conquered their neighbors with force, not niceties. Sure, they'd get boons inside the borders but that would come later.
>>1176823
Calm down son
>>1176861
I hope you find Jesus in your bed, anon.
>>1176940
I'm Irish too, and you couldn't be more wrong. Have you ever lived abroad, or even spent more than a month somewhere?
People don't "act the same way" by any stretch of the imagination. Clothes and media are the most shallow aspect of culture. We could do well in a United Ireland and maaaaybe Scotland. The EU will only work as long as it is pretty decentralised. The only country comparable to a proposed USE is India, and they have plenty of their own problems, including separatism.
>>1176976
>Or are you talking about the folk music that old dudes listen to at the pub and no one plays outside of primary school?
Spot the dubliner. Maybe we haven't balkanised enough.
>>1176823
>says 'go fuck yourself' in french
>uses the respectful form
>>1177128
Your not going to be able to compete with German engineering its just a fact.
>>1177101
> Either way, you are constantly setting arbitrary limits on what can be considered a significant difference in culture/law/whatever. Limits that just happen to support your argument.
But you too. You're saying that these differences are too significant for an union, even though they are comparable with that which can be found in many countries, but that's just an arbitrary assertion on your part.
>>1176935
Mamma li turchi
>>1177164
I'm not from Dublin, I'm from the Northn.
>People don't "act the same way" by any stretch of the imagination
Okay.
What do they do differently then to the extent that it would frustrate any attempts to unite Europe?
>>1176053
>"minor" fuckups
which are
>including UK who see euro only as a big market
>rapid enlargment of EU toward the East pushed by UK even if the country weren't ready economically
>same thing with euro, countries like Greece weren't ready
>unelected leadership (commissioner)
>Parliement listen more to lobbying than it's citizen (see vote for business secret and issue concerning endocrinian disruptor)
>vote for rules on meaningless thing
EU is the first economic power and a great idea but it's past mistake are about to destroy it
>>1177148
>Not being able to sell toxic meat
Fuck off.
>They still all have their own way of life.
Because your way of life is western. We don't share your humanist values or your concepts of tolerance and ''''equality''''. Things for which we've been sanctioned since they cannot be enforced until federalization.
>And an European superstate would care more about Romanian farmers than a group of leaders from various countries whopursue their national interest.
Just like the Soviet Union cared about the interests of the people of the different SSRs, right? Stop delluding yourself, each state has its own interests. An European Federation would care about federal, not provincial wealth.
>lol.
We are a product of Slavo-Byzantine civilization, further separated from Western civilization first by a Phanariote, then a Communist regime.
>Also, do you want to give back that part of transsylvania to Hungary ?
Transylvania was and still a Romanian historical region with a Romanian majority.
>Romania is a multicultural state already
Multiethnic in some regions, not multicultural.
>>1177180
SCORES OF THESE THINGS HAVE ALREADY BEEN LISTED YOU DENSE FUCKER.
You just ignore them and then ask the same fucking question again.
>would frustrate any attempts to unite Europe?
How about I will NEVER subject to an united European government.
>>1177038
t. romani
>>1177059
t. slav
>>1177166
Every state has its own assets to manage and market. Just because in a certain subsector another country is superior does not mean it also has monopoly internationally.
>>1177200
He thinks Romania can produce a better car then Germany. Should just make the country good for tourism like Greece and do nothing while waiting for bailout monies.
>>1177180
>What do they do differently then to the extent that it would frustrate any attempts to unite Europe?
Politics
Business
Work
Religion
Protests
Unions
Welfare
Nationalism
Family
Communication
Industry.
and more.
>>1177199
Yes, and they're all the most superficial things that you would notice on the tip of the iceberg in your picture. And even then most of those have largely been eroded by western mass-culture.
>How about I will NEVER subject to an united European government.
I agree, I'm not pro-EU either. It just fundamentally disagree with the concept of any kind of culture being a divisive factor in the first world.
>>1177197
The EU should've stopped at Austria. They don't need poor niggers like any of the slavs or Hungarians and Romanians
>>1177212
Hey its called free trade and it works both ways. If someshithole decides to impose tarrifs and close its market off then just watch its currency plummet to Zimbabwe levels.
>>1177217
>I'm just gonna repeat that they dont fit my arbitrary standards for culture.
>>1177216
How does this not apply to the US or even nations like Italy where you can find people who don't even speak the national language as their first language?
>>1177216
You mean all the things that the EU has more or less standardized all across Europe.
But
>Religion
You would find more religious diversity in South Korea than you would in Europe.
>>1177229
The thing is these aren't even my standards at this point, I'm talking straight from the replied-to post.
>>1177223
Blame the UK, they also supported Turkey's admission, without the frogs' refusal they could have already been accepted in the union.
>>1177165
>respectful form
?
>>1177213
You are a retard. Firstly, that is only one subsector of the market. Secondly(and most important), quality is not all. Until a country has both the highest quality, the cheapest price and enough production for all possible customers worldwide, quality by itself means shit.
By your logic, European markets shouldn't be full of Chinese goods.
>>1177223
I agree.
>>1177226
Too bad it isn't free when Bruxelles dictates your national exports.
>>1177202
This.
>>1177223
I agree
>>1177234
>How does this not apply to the US or even nations like Italy
It does to some extent. Not really relevant though. Their history is different.
>>1176439
>No, she took in refugees because she's not a monsterous greedy psychopath like the Gulf Arab states who started the wars and fund ISIS, and take ZERO refugees. I guess you must love Saudi Arabia, you certainly agree with all of their policies.
Doesn't change the fact she just opened border say "welcome" without any organisation behind.
She could have organised the administration and the infrastructure, made apply the law, explain to refugee/migrant how the fuck it's work here and they will respect it.
Instead nothing was ready, Cologne happened, more than half of the refugee aren't registered, incident including refugee rise up with autority just saying to be tolerant, German citizen are throwed out of their house for refugee and refugee road is a way for terrorist to enter in Europe (Paris attack).
>Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism
Nationalism is rising because of exposition to islamism, you idiots.
People are tired to people get away with actual hatred toward women because muh tolerance
People are tired to see all commerce district replaced by halal stuff.
People are tired to see muslim trying to break rules and trying to impose stuff because they think their faith give them every right
And finally people are tired to see more and more fundamentalist in the street
And you think nationalism gonna fall by welcoming people from the most islamist part of the world ?
>>1177197
>we don't share your humanist values or your concepts of tolerance and ''''equality''''.
So your problem is not that your way of life will be threatened, but that you won't able to threaten the other ways of life in your country.
Now I understand why you prefer Russia.
But that's more of political than cultural issue. It can be resolved without a loss.
And, no, it would be quite unlike the USSR, because there would not be a Russia to become the center of it, there wouldn't be a Party with its own power dynamics taking priority, and representative democracy would function better.
>>1177264
It isn't really for Italy, except they unified in an even less democratic fashion.
>>1177248
Or in the case of Czech Skoda the Germans will just buy their competition out.
Or in the case of China the market is so big they dictate how much one has to pay or do to get into their market while they can sell goods and buy bonds to everyone else no questions asked.
>>1177266
Except Germany has already become the centre of the EU.
/his/ - definitely not /pol/ with dates.
>>1177264
>Not really relevant though
The Civil War, differences in development of the north/south/frontier/etc, waves of European immigration, vast differences between states such as North Dakota being the only one with a State Bank, etc are not relevant?
1. kick out England
2. separate post-commie countries into their own version of the EU
3. add Turkey + move all immigrants to Turkey
bam, all problems with the EU solved
>>1177274
>/his/ - definitely not /pol/ with dates.
there aren't even an dates
>>1177273
>Not at all familia.
Kind of has though, the EU has an explicit standard for political matters and serves to standardize economic and industrial matters.
>I'd like to see you try to force Britain to accept France's policy of Laicité
Britain is already for all intents and purposes secular, having an explicit reference to seperation of church and state wouldn't really bother anyone but ultra-protestants who already get offended by everything anyway.
>>1176811
It's not fucking about "vague feelings". It's about putting a priority on certain ideals
>>1177274
>Believing in memes
>>1177235
>standardized
Not at all.
>>1177295
Right, the EU definitely doesn't straight up import western industry to less developed ex-communist nations.
>>1177266
>So your problem is not that your way of life will be threatened, but that you won't able to threaten the other ways of life in your country.
Fuck off with your moral absolutism. Each society has its own values and customs which the EU threatens.
>But that's more of political than cultural issue.
Politics are dictated by local culture, not some arbitrary international standards.
>there would not be a Russia to become the center of it
Instead of the Kremlin you'd have Bruxelles
>there wouldn't be a Party with its own power dynamics taking priority, and representative democracy would function better
Yeah, where the European leadership is chosen behind closed doors and where the number of representatives are tied to countries, not universal.
I was born in a Motherland, not an European province. Go fuck yourself, evro-mankurt.
>>1177303
Huh? Did you reply to the wrong person?
Politics
Business
Work
Religion
Protests
Unions
Welfare
Nationalism
Family
Communication
Industry.
and more.
Are definitely not standardized in the EU.
>>1177173
>Mamma li turchi
That's sicilian tho, not venetian.
>>1177308
Nationalists ruined Europe like five times already. Your shit is long gone and done away with.
>>1177266
>But that's more of political than cultural issue.
Politics, law etc are heavily inspired by culture. Pretty much everything that stands as a barrier between an EU federation has a basis on culture.
>>1177316
>>1176592
>First of all, for the majority of European countries the European period of nationalism was good. Most European countries are independent because of nationalism. It was only the Germans who took ethnic (underline the ethnic part). So don't think you can just wave the word nationalism around like it's somehow evil unto itself. You need to explain why it is bad, and differentiate between the types of nationalism you are talking about.
That shit wont fly in Europe. Most European nations are on some level grateful for nationalism, despite Hitler.
>>1177286
>Kind of has though, the EU has an explicit standard for political matters and serves to standardize economic and industrial matters.
Standards relating to things we can already agree on, corruption is bad, elections must be fair, etc. Trying to get even similar countries like Ireland and the UK to agree on republicanism vs monarchy is an exercise in futility. Standardisation of economic matters has only gone so far as trade-related laws, there is still a huge difference in the economies and industries of Northern and Southern europe as well as the UK. There is no way they can make everyone happy and people do not have an attachment to europe to overcome this.
>Britain is already for all intents and purposes secular, having an explicit reference to seperation of church and state wouldn't really bother anyone but ultra-protestants who already get offended by everything anyway.
As long as it is a monarchy this is impossible. Bongs get defensive enough over this shit already.
>>1177316
How so? Europe became the mightiest continent under nationalism. The downfall came after nationalism was given up.
>>1177310
>Politics
Yes it is, explicitly
>Business
Yes it is, explicitly
>Work
Same as above
>Religion
Europe is already overwhelmingly Christian and religion doesn't matter to begin with
>Protests
Protests happen all across Europe, nothing new here.
>Unions
Pretty sure every European country has those.
>Welfare
Likewise
>Nationalism
Yup, every European country has that too. And outside of Slavic shitholes it doesn't really matter either.
>Family
Family is largely uniform all across Europe.
>Communication
Yes, by this point everyone has phones, the internet and a big English speaking population.
>Industry
Same as business.
>>1177330
>Europe became the mightiest continent under nationalism
What era are you using to make this judgement?
>>1177308
Can you tell me how you would settle a disputes with other nationalists from smaller neighboring country good sir? See this is why nationalism is like a fire that needs to be tempered and reasoned with. Necessary for the survival of the nation but if left unchecked can destroy it.
>>1177327
>As long as it is a monarchy this is impossible. Bongs get defensive enough over this shit already.
You mean as long as the Anglican Church is headed by the Queen.
Belgium also is a monarchy yet also has a policy of secularism.
>There is no way they can make everyone happy and people do not have an attachment to europe to overcome this.
I must be clear I'm not advocating for a united Europe, I'm saying national culture in the first world is non-existent.
>>1177330
Nationalism was late and after Europe already become great because of industrialization.
>>1177342
>Can you tell me how you would settle a disputes with other nationalists from smaller neighboring country good sir?
What disputes and what nationalism?
>>1177324
No the reason so many European ethnicities have their own countries is because of treaties signed by the victors over staggering losses in both world wars and in the Napoleonic era to break up unnecessarily large countries.
>>1177331
But it isn't what the fuck are you talking about?
>Politics
European countries do not at all follow the same politics or political structures. There are large differences between the power ministers, presidents hold, differences between how many votes you need to get to be a real party, how people vote (left and right), how long a parliament lasts before re-elections need to be held.
The only thing pretty much all EU states share is the fact that all have parliaments. Nothing more.
>Business
Again false. Businesses are taxed differently, have different regulations, are protected and are obligated differently all around europe.
>Work
Once again false. Work hours, minimum wages, workers rights, workers rights outside of work (maternal leave, unemployement benefits etc) vary differently. Also different types of education are valued differently around Europe.
>Religion
Europe is divided between catholicism and protestantism. Protestantism is internally divided. But i agree, this is not relevant because religion does not interfere withe the states.
>Unions
Yes you imbecile, all European countries have unions. How much power do the unions have is a completely different thing in the other hand.
>Welfare
Nope, nope nope. Europe has 4 different systems of welfare and they all vary country by country.
>Family
Nope, nope. A massive north-south divide exists when it comes to family.
>Industry
Same as business.
Americans please stop. You don't know about Europe clearly.
>>1177356
Like borders or economics. The EU provides an excellent arbitrary court for these things.how would you replace it?
>>1177360
a) That isn't true for all European countries.
b) Yugoslavia
c) Eastern Europe enjoyed a few decades of independence, which was followed by """""independence""""" under the warsaw pact. Some countries like the Baltics were officially incorporated in to the USSR as well.
d) Trianon etc already had nationalist influences in them.
But many European countries are thankful for nationalism for other things as well, such as art, literature and language.
