So, on the justification of homosexual acts, masturbation, and contraception being sinful, here is what a Catholic told me:
>anything must follow the natural law otherwise it is a sin that goes against what God intended
>if you make yourself puke after eating without taking the time to digest, you're sinning
>quoting: "Sex must be procreative, in that the culmination of the act is anatomically oriented toward (not the same as "results in", or "has x probability of resulting in") new life. Sex must be unitive, in that it draws the couple closer together and fulfills their mutual duty of furthering each other's pursuit of virtue and ultimately salvation. Finally, sex must be marital, in that the couple must be united as one flesh through marriage.
Sex must be all three. Procreative sex that is done out of nothing but pure lust isn't licit, any more than non-procreative sex done out of genuine desire to provide mutual comfort is licit. But whether it's done out of pure lust or not will have no bearing on whether it's procreative, etc. etc."
Okay, that's fine, I understand.
Now, what is the justification behind this line of thinking? Which parts of the Bible explain this reasonment?
t. retard who wants to convert to Catholicism but has problems with homosex being a grave sin
Then don't convert. If it really bothers you that much, then Catholicism won't bring you the solace you're looking for.
>>1164419
>being a faggot
Anon no.
>>1164546
>said the piece of shit getting offended by the Catholic Church and what it stands by
>supporting immoral behavior
>>1164552
>I can't understand = I'm offended
>sex between two people who love each other is immoral behavior
???
>>1164419
You must be new here to believe a catholic on anything.
If you want to know what the bible says, read the bible.
>>1164580
I've read the Bible in two languages. What is your point?
>>1164419
Or how about you abandon these petty religious doctrines and think for youself for a change you plebeian.
>>1164585
The point is to refer to the bible to answer questions about the bible, and not to people who value their traditions over the bible.
The bible says nothing about masturbation whatsoever.
The bible says nothing about contraception whatsoever.
The bible calls homosexual acts an abomination before God.
The bible says that sex is reserved only for a married man and wife, and that by sexual congress a man and wife are united into one being, and that the fruit of that union are children.
And God said to cover the earth, be fruitful, and multiply.
You can be a homosexual Catholic, if you'd like.
Or you can be born again as a new creation in Christ Jesus, in which case you will have to leave your current "lifestyle" and become something brand new.
>>1164419
This isn't justified in the bible. Natural Law is a concept Catholics got after cherry picking Aristotle.
In the Catholic world theologians, bishops, and the Pope have a higher authority than the bible.
>>1164602
My questions aren't about the Bible but about Catholicism though.
The Bible is the product of the Church, not the contrary.
Leviticus calls homosexuality an abomination, the only mentions of it in the OT are Paul mentionning that fact (not in a context that specifically brings down the people concerned by the law though) and that's it.
I'm not a faggot by the way :^)
>>1164607
>Natural Law is a concept Catholics got after cherry picking Aristotle.
Interesting, mind elaborating? Because that's pretty much the only issue I have with Catholicism.
>>1164639
>sex is for man and woman
so why does god make some people who want to have sex with people of the same sex and have no attraction for the other sex? people who can't procreate because of it?
oh wait a minute
>For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.
What's with all these homosexuals trying to change religion? Or trying to find justification of it.
>>1164652
>so why does god make some people who want to have sex with people of the same sex and have no attraction for the other sex? people who can't procreate because of it?
Are you saying they should be allowed to go sodomize each other and make a mockery of life?
>>1164638
The bible was finished in 95 AD.
The Roman Catholic church was founded in 325 AD.
>>1164638
The OT is essential to Christianity. If you omit it then there's no point in being a Christian, you're just an atheist at that point.
>>1164639
Yes, it does. It is the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.
>>1164657
Guess they don't want to be cool and be trannies.
>>1164419
Catholics think abstenance outside of a committed sexual relationship (including masturbation) is natural. This flies in the face of pretty much all accepted science so if you want to accept it your going to need to do some hard core cognitive dissonance
>>1164419
Isn't Catholicism just idolatry?
>Pray to saints
>Change rules
>Elect a man who talks to God on behalf of men
>>1164677
Yup. Anti-semetic paganism.
>>1164684
God didn't even say you must follow Him, and Him alone.
You only have to do that if you do not want to reach 2500 degrees centigrade.
>>1164686
So God is the Bible?
>>1164693
There's kind of a funny twist on that. The bible is the Word of God.
And Jesus is the Word of God.
>>1164419
>homosex, masturbation and contraception are sinful, every pope says so
>molesting choir boys? well, that's a tough call...
Catholic logic.
>>1164658
>make a mockery of life
elaborate
>>1164663
The Bible wasn't finished in 95 AD. The Hebrew Bible canon as we know it today was completed in about 250 AD. The Catholic Bible canon as we know it today was completed in the fucking 5th century.
>>1164664
It was made obsolete by Jesus bringing about the fullfillment of the law. It is very important to understand how things came to turn into Christianity but it is expected to be read from a Christocentric point of view by Christians, and as something to learn from, not as something as absolute as the gospel.
>>1164671
What I've been told so far isn't that it is "natural" (after all, killing your rival is natural too but that's unacceptable) but rather that, to follow the ideals of God, things must go to their natural conclusion and purpose without artifically messing with them. So, sex acts must be between two people who are married together, who are brought closer by the act, with the possibility of creating new life remaining open. So homosexuality and masturbation are sinful for the same reason ejaculating anywhere but inside a vagina is sinful.
>>1164693
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Revelation 19
Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 20
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
>>1164704
alright. got it. We should eat pages from the Bible for communion
>>1164709
The bible was finished in 95 AD by John writing the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
The canon for the Roman Catholic Church was somewhere near 397 AD. And it was wrong. And it was comprised mostly of the books that were written prior to 96 AD.
>>1164709
The Old Testament was not made obsolete; the Promise is eternal.
You're not good at this. Lurk more and post less.
>>1164714
If that's what helps you remember what Jesus did for you, sure. Go for it. Eat paper instead of unleavened bread.
>>1164733
>Hebrews 4:12
>For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
What part of that don't you understand again?
And who said the bible was the Holy Spirit? I said the bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit, who lived in the men who wrote it, and brought all things to their remembrance.
>>1164743
And what part don't you understand that the Holy Spirit is in everyone, including the Church? What don't you understand that the Church has authority because of Christ words.
>>1164756
kek
The Holy Spirit is only in people who have been born again in the Spirit, and in nobody, and nothing, else.
>>1164733
>Christ is the Word of God
oh for God's sake Jesus isn't the fucking Word. absolutely terrible translation of John. He's the Logos, concept taken from Platonism
>>1164716
The Bible wasn't finished in 95AD because the Bible itself is a compilation of different texts. You're better off saying the latest book of the Bible was written at that date.
>>1164718
The Torah given to the Israelites only applies to the Israelites. God's renewed promise through Christ concerns everybody, not just Jews, but it also only includes what Jesus has taught.
>>1164733
>why do you think Sodom(y) was burned to the ground?
because its inhabitants gangraped then murdered people all the time, maybe
>sodom was destroyed because of the GAY
>>/islam/
(although i'm pretty sure that view comes from the catholic church first, but what's the reasoning behind that too?)
Men who sleep with men will not inherit the Kingdom of God
Stop being a faggot
>>1164756
Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
>>1164764
kek
John is wrong!
Plato is right!
Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
>>1164766
>(although i'm pretty sure that view comes from the catholic church first, but what's the reasoning behind that too?)
Because it's immoral. Listen. Being gay is immoral, but acting on it is fucking worse, because that means you fell to the temptation. Are you a homosexual?
>>1164766
The last book that is in the bible was written by John the Revelator @ 95 AD.
The texts prior to that, that are in the bible, were obviously written prior to that.
The Promise gives the land to Israel, God gives the Land to Israel, and that is eternal. You said it was obsolete. You greatly err.
The promises in Christ Jesus are not the same promises that God made to Abraham. Maybe crack open a bible?
stop shitposting about the bible and give me a reply you fucking pigs
>>1164638
>Interesting, mind elaborating? Because that's pretty much the only issue I have with Catholicism.
>>1164791
Dude, you summoned the shitposting "protestant".
>>1164791
I already did. If you want to be a Catholic, be a catholic. They're a rules based and works based operation; if you don't like their rules, and don't like their works, don't join them.
If you want to be saved, do what the bible says is necessary to be saved.
Just don't be gay anymore faggu
>>1164779
I wasn't making a statement about John or Plato being right or wrong. it's simply a fact that the gospel of John opens by calling Jesus the Logos, often translated as Word. Logos is a part of Platonist terminology
>>1164782
>why is it bad?
>because it's bad
wow
>>1164788
>god gives the law to the israelites
>the law is holy and eternal
>christ comes, fulfills the law, opens the religion to the rest of the world (by paul's interpretation) with a new set of commandments that apply to non-Jews
i misworded myself probably, it's 2am
>>1164800
I asked for an explanation on what leads to this reasonment. This is a non-answer you're giving.
>>1164815
>wow
I know right :^)
Being gay and acting on it is an abomination, if you're gay and don't act on it, you're saved. Also if you had gay sex, just ask the priest to do some forgiving, and show that you wanna be buddy buddy with Christ by doing work.
>>1164823
>asking anyone but God or Jesus to forgive your sins
>>1164891
No, you see anon, the priest gives you that privilege to tell you that your sins has been absolved and what to do to make it better and prove yourself to God.
The whole homophic stuff in the Bible was caused by the time period the Bible was translated. King James Version set the precedent for other Bible renditions to come.
tl;dr homophobic shit was put in as a means to keep the sons of royalty from breaking the lineage, and thus the hold on their respective state.
>>1164913
Would you happen to have a source for this?
>>1164913
oh boy its this meme again
homosexuality was always a no-no
>>1164955
It's propaganda to destroy nations.
>>1165080
I-What? How is being against gays going to destroy nations?
>>1164419
Your friend got it basically right. Since sex must be procreative and unitive, it rules out homosexual intercourse (since two dudes obviously can't have kids), contraception (since it prevents the couple from being open to new life and therefore makes it impossible for them to draw together perfectly), and premarital sex (since people who are not married are unable to fully give themselves to one another).
Pope John Paul II's discussion of marriage in Theology of the Body does a fantastic job of explaining these beliefs and placing them in their Scriptural context. Paul also talks about marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 and other places. Here's a link that might give you some other places to look.
>http://www.foryourmarriage.org/catholic-marriage/catholic-beliefs/biblical-roots/
I would also advise talking to a priest or someone else who is well versed in these questions.
>>1164602
>refer to the bible to answer questions about the bible
Yes, but what happens when two people read the Bible and come away with two completely different interpretations of a given text? They both can't be right.
Also, just because the Bible doesn't mention things by name doesn't mean they're unnecessary for Christians to know. The Holy Trinity is never named specifically in Scripture and yet it is one of the most important doctrines of the faith.
>>1164607
>In the Catholic world theologians, bishops, and the Pope have a higher authority than the bible.
This is not true. The Church's Magisterium is considered a valid source of inspiration along with Tradition and Scripture, but it does not have a higher authority than the other two. Rather, all three of these sources work together to serve Christ and the Church.
>>1164638
>Interesting, mind elaborating? Because that's pretty much the only issue I have with Catholicism.
St. Thomas Aquinas was heavily influenced by Aristotle and drew om his thought extensively for his Summa Theologiae.
>>1165149
Continuing:
>>1164652
The Catholic Church has essentially said, "We don't know where homosexual attraction comes from. It's likely some combination of biology, environment, and personal choice, but we don't know the exact composition." Because of that, just being attracted to the same sex is not a sin but a "disordered desire," in other words a desire that aims at a bad end. Since it's unclear how much control people have over whether they feel this attraction or not, the Church has not said it is a sin to be attracted to the same sex, but it is a sin to commit homosexual acts. That's why you may meet gay celibate Catholics occasionally.
>>1164677
>>Pray to the saints
We ask the saints to pray for us, we do not pray to them.
>>Change rules
I'm pretty sure Protestants changed rules more than the Church did, seeing as our tradition goes back to the time of the apostles.
>>Elect a man who talks to God on behalf of men
The pope has never claimed to talk to God on behalf of men. He is the Vicar, i.e. Representative, of Christ on earth. He leads and guides the Church as its shepherd.
>>1164716
There's a lot of problems with this, so I'll go right at it. Just because John finished his gospel does not mean that every single Christian had access to it right away. The canon of Scripture (basically which books are in the Bible and the order they go in) took time to figure out. There were still a lot of apocryphal gospels and other books floating around for the next 3 centuries that people had to clear up. That's why you had Councils that tackled this problem: people might agree on most of the books in the canon, but you had some fringe ones that people weren't sure about. That's why the canon was not officially declared until 397.
>And it was wrong.
So what made Luther's version right? He basically copypasted the Jewish OT canon because he didn't like a few books that the Church had been using for a millennium and a half.
Ditch this spooky shit. Have ya read stirner?
>>1165246
>egoism
Get the fuck out, men are having an actual discussion you pleb.
>>1165261
>discussing spooky meaningless bullshit
okay kid
>>1165280
>said the cuckold that jerks off to the fall of the west
>>1165283
Cuckhold no, but other than that you were spot on.
>>1165286
Get out.
>>1165283
>fall of the west
>implying this actually happening
also Christianity isn't even European, shouldn't you be worshiping pagan gods or something? Why the dead kike on a stick?
>>1164607
>Natural Law is a concept Catholics got after cherry picking Aristotle
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Protescucks don't know their scripture. Sounds right.
>>1164419
Read the new testament anon. You're asking religious questions when Jesus was killed because he went against religious laws. As for sex, it's relation to the flesh is where the slope gets slippery. The flesh is what needs to be sacrificed and let go of. The flesh in general is where the problems lie. It has a "tug" of it's own that attempts to steer your actions, which is always competing against the soul and spirit. Following the flesh leads to profound selfishness which pretty much separate you from the first 2 commandments. The first two commandments being the most important.
As for homosexuality, I asked God about this once. It was a topic that bothered me because I knew most Christians weren't handling the whole homosexual situation properly. The last thing you ever want to do is be a reason someone can't find God, or be a reason they don't come to God. Anyways, I asked God about this and got a vision. The vision I got in return was one of a mans strength.
There was a time when a man's strength was in his family/clan. Every individual in that clan/family, their strength was in the other individuals. The bigger the family, the less likely they were to suffer. The larger they were, the less likely they will be stolen from, the larger they were meant that the young could care for the old and vice versa. The whole unit can take care of itself and support itself.
If you introduce homosexuality as a acceptable lifestyle...the growth ends. It's considered an abomination because it cuts off growth and in a way, assists death.
I also saw that the only way a homosexual lifestyle could ever prosper, is if you find yourself in a society where family isn't important. Like in today's society. Where it doesn't matter if you have family or not as long as you have money. With wealth, just about any life style may be supported. And since the flesh has that "tug" of it's own, sadly it leaves us beyond vulnerable. But that's a testament to people who think-----
>>1166810
But that's a testament to people who think man is God. Man can't even compete with his own flesh, not without help from God. Which sounds ridiculous, but only to those who don't understand what God is. Which is a testament to the significance of humility. With out humility, you can become a victim of self righteousness in a life where everyone is facing death. That's not to say you can't be arrogant and defiant till death. But why would you? You weren't almighty on earth, maybe under delusion you were, but the truth is, on earth you're one of many equals. Goin off on tangent, but yeah.
