How the Christians came into the concept of Trinity? It's literally nowhere in the Bible.
>>1124598
>It's literally nowhere in the Bible.
>inb4 multiple morons post the Comma Johanneum
>>1124598
It's a way to reconcile the polytheist influence of Christianity with the Jewish tradition
>>1124598
From Neoplatonism.
>For Proclus, on the other hand, the arkhê or 'ruling beginning' of all Life is the 'One-in-itself' (to auto hen), or that which is responsible for the ordering of all existents, insofar as existence is, in the last analysis, the sovereign act or expression of this primordial unity or monad. The expression of this One is perfectly balanced, being a trinity containing, as distinct expressions, each moment of self-realization of this One; and each of these moments, according to Proclus, have the structure of yet another trinity. The first trinity corresponds to the limit, which is the guide and reference-point of all further manifestations; the second to the unlimited, which is also Life or the productive power (dunamis); and the third, finally, to the 'mixture' (mikton, diakosmos), which is the self-reflective moment of return during which the soul realizes itself as a thinking -- i.e., living -- entity. Thought is, therefore, the culmination of Life and the fulfillment of Being. Thought is also the reason (logos) that binds these triadic unities together in a grand harmonious plêrôma, if you will.
...
>Pseudo-Dionysius professes a God who is beyond all distinctions, and who even transcends the means utilized by human beings to reach Him. For Pseudo-Dionysius, the Holy Trinity (which is probably analogous to Proclus' highest trinity, see above) serves as a "guide" to the human being who seeks not only to know but to unite with "him who is beyond all being and knowledge" (Pseudo-Dionysius, The Mystical Theology 997A-1000A, tr. C. Luibheid 1987).
>>1124598
Why the hell should something be bassed in some shitty book?
>>1124673
Well, Christians believe it's the word of God.
>>1124661
Neoplatonicians took this divine conception from the Vedic-Aryan India.
>>1124629
This.
Santeria is to the Caribbean as Christianity is to Europe.
>>1124598
It's throughout the bible, actually. Not the word Trinity, the idea of the trinity. (The word "bible" is also not in the bible, but nobody seems to think that invalidates the bible.)
Then you have to figure out there is only one God:
The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 8, 45:5, 14, 18, 21, 22, 46:9, 47:8, John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:5-6, Gal. 4:8-9.
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 45:5).
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).
Then you have to look at all of the ways the Father is described as God, the Son is described as God, and the Spirit is described as God.
FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT
Called God
Father: Phil. 1:2
Son: John 1:1, 14,
Holy Spirit: Col. 2:9, Acts 5:3-4
Then you can walk through the verses and find out all of the times each of the Trinity is described as God: Creator, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Creates life, Eternal, Willful, Speaks, Saves, Judges, etc., and you end up with One threefold God.
God in three persons; one being.
God is hyperdimensional.
As to your false claim that the trinity is nowhere to be found, Origen attempted to remove this verse from the bible, as Origen the heretic did not believe in the trinity:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
So it is not the case that there are three gods that somehow join up into One God; there is One God Who has manifested Himself in three ways so that we might get to know Him.
>>1124661
kek. it always seems to come back to Christianity being a cheap rip off of Platonic philosophy made for the masses
>>1124598
Jeremiah 8:8 directly states that the bible lies and the bible tells you that you are evil merely by having sex with whomever you please so yeah, satan at work.
Can't wait for an army of drooling cumgoobling braindead retards to come and paste here every bit of the bible to try and prove me wrong while suspiciously they don't do what they preach nor the miracles preached of them.
>>1125328
You can respect Origin the heretic for attempting to rid the bible of something he did not believe, but I will not.
And stop acting as though you have access to the autographs. You do not.
>>1125394
I'm surprised insane asylums in Spain have unfiltered internet access. Seems unhealthy.
>>1125407
>Spain
Can't see any flags in my post.
You better start explaining where you get all of these emotions of yours telling you that I'm spanish, since the world and the internet is so vast...
Btw, I see you are part of the drooling cum gobbling braindead retard army.
>>1125407
>Person says the truth
>Durhurrboi can't prove him wrong
>y-you're insane!
>>1125419
I've told you several times that Jeremiah 8:8 refers to talmudic writings and takenot, not the bible. And that scribes are lawyers and teachers, not transcriptionists.
Stay spun out, Spainfag. Keep sputtering. It's amusing.
>>1125232
Platonism was the standard of thinking in the ancient world. When theologians learned of Christianity, they saw it through a platonic lens. That doesn't mean it's a rip off.
>>1125394
If you read the entire chapter you will see that Jeremiah is prophesying to the Israelites who have been in rebellion to God and are not repenting. The interpretations and ordinances of the scribes were not the word of the Lord.
>>1125394
Some might see this as a reference to the Jewish Scriptures being incorrectly written or corrupted. But the “scribes” of Jeremiah's time were not copyists of the Jewish religious texts.
The “soferim” or scribes of Jeremiah's day were professionals who wrote documents for important functions (lawyers—religious and secular, financiers, historians, etc.) in Judah. Some of the soferim or scribes were responsible with the work of being “copyists” of the Mosaic Law. Their familiarity with the Law (because they were making handwritten copies) made them experts of what was written. The soferim class eventually became a teaching class unto itself. By the time of Jeremiah they were more “teacher” than actual scribe.
By the time the Babylonian exile was imminent, the way of many officials of Judah was that of corruption. This included the soferim class which, according to Jeremiah's pronouncements, had left off attending to the work of copying the Law of Moses or any of the other works which would eventually become Scripture.
The teachings and interpretation of these scribes ran contrary to Scripture. The “lies” that they were copying were not Scripture, which is what you read if you put the text in context:
How can you say, “We are wise,
we have the law of the Lord”?
See, that has been changed into falsehood
by the lying pen of the scribes!
The wise are put to shame,
terrified, and trapped;
>Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what sort of wisdom do they have?--Jeremiah 8:8, 9 New American Bible, Revised Edition; greentext added.
>>1125394
>>1125756
Did you notice that they “rejected the word of the Lord”? They left off copying it and were now offering their own “falsehoods” instead.
The JPS Tanakh (a Jewish translation) renders this:
How can you say, “We are wise,
And we possess the Instruction of the Lord“?
Assuredly, for naught has the pen labored,
For naught the scribes!
The wise shall be put to shame,
Shall be dismayed and caught;
>See, they reject the word of the Lord,
So their wisdom amounts to nothing.--greentext added.
The reference to the “pen” may be sarcasm as this is a pronouncement against these false teachers. They obviously were no longer scribes in the literal sense for some time, at least not the ones that had anything to do with the “word of the Lord” which the same text says they had “rejected.”
The texts of the Hebrew Scriptures as we have them today were assembled and edited into the form we are now familiar with after the Babylonian exile ended, some 70 years after the events in Jeremiah 8.
>>1124598
Paul distorted Allahs word
>>1125773
Mohammed denied the Divinity of Christ and listened to demons.
Good Field Commander, Shit Prophet.
>>1124598
Gentiles can't into monotheism.
Is God the father mentioned in the bible?
Is the Holy Spirit mentioned in the bible?
Is Jesus, the son, mentioned in the bible?
That was difficult, wasn't it OP?
Its on the last page OP
>>1124603
I know what you are saying but technically OP is right. You're able to stitch together the concept of the Trinity from different passages of the Bible but there is nowhere the Trinity is explicitly laid out in a single passage.
>>1124995
First of all, the trimurti is Puranic, not Vedic.
And Secondly, it didn't develop until India's medieval period.
Are you suggesting that Scripture doesn't teach the Holy Spirit is God? Or rather that Scripture doesn't teach Christ is God? The Trinity is the baptismal formula from the NT.
>>1125406
Except that isn't what happened.
>>1125490
it's more than just a "lense", christianity borrows a ton of concepts
>>1125766
You received an answer, but you cling to your insane lies.
>>1124598
>How the Christians came into the concept of Trinity?
It came from the same place the cult of saints came from, paganism. The triplicity of god is an ancient trope in European mythology, found in Hindu myth, in Celtic myth, in Germanic myth and even in Greek myth.
>>1126320
You were there?
>>1126334
It's not in any of those.
>>1125780
>Nay, they say:"These (revelations of the Qur'an which are inspired to Muhammad ) are mixed up false dreams! Nay, he has invented it! Nay, he is a poet!
Kaffirs BTFO.
>>1125916
you know damn well the trinity isn't the only way to see the relationship between those three
>>1126339
It's the only true way.
It's not complicated.
Father is God.
Son is God.
Spirit is God.
There is One God.
>>1124995
The faces in Hindu art really piss me off. Kind of a shame really because it seems like an interesting religion, but every god damn time I look it up I'm greeted with the most punchable faces ever designed.
>>1126343
Man, you used to be an interesting poster.
What happened?
>>1126335
I wasn't there when Julius Caesar was murdered, and yet we know what happened regardless. Isn't that interesting.
>>1126346
I guess I got sick of having to rebut the same memes over and over and over and over, that don't come from people actually doing research, but are literally just memes.
>>1126342
maybe you should look into Arianism
>>1126352
You never rebut anything. You just make long winded asspulls that always hinge on you taking an interpretation of something that's meant to support your position rather than honestly interpret. But you treat them like solid fucking gold, because you're an insane narcissist who can't imagine being wrong about anything.
>>1126350
Can you prove it happened? Do you really believe all those myths?
>>1126337
So what you;re saying is, you're completely unfamiliar with any of these mythologies?
>>1126345
I think they're all kind of androgynously sexy 2bh.
Like I don't know if I want to fuck Shiva or have him fuck me.
>>1126345
Man, it really is true. They’re on the same tier as those faggot-ass pictures westerners like to make of Jesus (see pic related). Old-style eastern icon Jesus could kick all their asses any day.
>>1126353
Been there, done that, bought the Heretic shirt.
What I posted is a direct refutation of Arianism.
>>1126358
No, I actually do exhaustive research and offer primary sources and arguments. Compared to literally just memes
>>1126361
I'm saying Jesus changed everything, and what you think is derivative is exactly the opposite.
>>1126358
This. And when he gets something he can't "refute", he just plays dumb or posts an oh-so-funny maymay instead. Typical Christian, he just can't stop lying.
>>1126366
the ironic part is that hindu painting conventions are quite formulaic and strict, just like orthodox icons.
>>1126359
The myth that Caesar was murdered?
>>1126362
Nothing but demons.
>>1126371
Jesus had a time machine? You know, it's normal to actually look at the evidence before declaring it invalid, you;'re a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
>>1126374
The myth that he even existed.
>>1126358
>Says the Atheist
Don't insult mah wifu.
>Constintine will never Deus Vult all over your cock
Tfw
>>1126368
>exhaustive research
Being long-winded is not the same as exhaustive research. What you do is mine for shit meant to support your position and then wilfully misinterpret it. You'll distort literally anything to support your position.
>>1126376
Jesus needs a time machine?
He's God. He's outside of time. He was walking in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve four thousand years prior to His "birth".
>>1126377
Yeah man, De Bello Gallico wasn't gonna write itself.
For instance, the idea that Christianity comes from Greek philosophy literally just boils down to the word "Logos". Now as I've already shown before, the term is used in the OT in passages Christians considered to be prophecies about the Messiah. Still, it persist, but Logos in Greek philosophy is nothing like Logos in Christianity, Logos in Greek philosophy is Hegel's Geist, which is foreign to Christianity, Christianity does not see Christ as some sort of common mind that thinks for everyone, but because this meme will continue to persist with zero substantiation, because people who don't even read Stoic philosophy, Heraclitus or Plato, think they understand what Logos is in Greek philosophy, and people who have never combed through the prophecies of the Old Testament or the Christology of the NT, think they know what the term is in Christianity.
>>1126382
>>1126387
I bet you think Romeo and Juliet were real people too.
kek
>>1126368
Be completely honest, and don't avoid the question: Have you ever admitted you were wrong about anything on /his/? Even once?
>>1126395
Yes, you have thrown out the entire bible, to your error, and to your loss. And to your shame.
>>1126392
>For instance, the idea that Christianity comes from Greek philosophy literally just boils down to the word "Logos".
Yeah, no. There are countless similarities between Greek religions and Christianity, the fact that you are completely ignorant of them doesn't change this.
>>1126379
This sort of thinking, "I can't be bothered with anything longer than soundbites," is exactly why memes are all that are ever appealed to.
>>1126400
Good goy.
>>1126399
Sure, I admitted I was wrong about the pagan concept of contrition in regard to Herakles killing his family.
>>1126396
>implying Romeo of House Montague and Juliet of House Capulet aren't real
Wow I want historical revisionists to leave.
>>1126378
I lmao'd irl 2bh
>>1126403
There aren't, and if you actually read significantly from both without actively trying to impose connections, you'd know this.
>>1126412
I'll leave as soon as Falkor picks me up for a ride.
>>1126405
>I can't be bothered with anything longer than soundbites.
Yeah, no. I know you're an idiot, from the majority of our discussions. I'm not going to read an essay from you, when every time I've done that has resulted in me just proving what I already know: that you're an idiot, a fanatic, and a narcissist. You've done nothing but damage to your position in your time here.
>>1126372
>And when he gets something he can't "refute",
Please actually provide an example.
>>1126403
Greek religions had Jesus in them?
Jesus died?
Jesus rose from the dead?
Jesus is God?
Because that's the entirety of Christianity.
How much of that was in the Greeks again?
>>1126419
Oh I'll give you a neverending story you cheeky son of a
>>1126427
I'll admit, I had to google the dog's name. Totally worth it.
>>1125937
You would think that the supposedly central dogma of Christianity would be explicitly proclaimed in supposedly revealed scripture, since this is the only source where humans can know about it (Aquinas himself says that it cannot be reached by way of reason, which is another way of saying it is irrational and contradictory), and wouldn't require years of theologica despute, political muscle and persecution of contradictory views by other Christian sects, such as the Arian "heresy" which was at one time the majority view. But that's just me...
>>1126428
I think they label him a "dragon" or something, but who the hell knows, weird movie.
>>1126430
Christ being God and the Holy Spirit being God are both explicitly present in Scripture.
>>1126424
>Because that's the entirety of Christianity.
Oh don't be disingenuous. I'm not that poster and I don't think the connections between Platonism/neo-Platonism and Christianity are all that strong (except perhaps their inane distaste for all things material as some sort of "lower" reality to the pure one beyond), but there's a shitload more to Christianity than that, unless you're going to argue Ahmadiyya is Christian.
>>1126423
Well how about your pathetic claim that Psalm 110 is a prophecy of the Messiah When it was pointed out to you that this is simply a mistranslation, you responded with memes like the mendacious little shitstain you are.
>>1126442
>the Holy Spirit being God
is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in scripture, unless you’re going to pull that 1 John 5:7 bullshit.
>>1126403
This. The entire concept of the three hypostases partaking in one godhead is platonic as it gets.
>>1126424
>Greek religions had Jesus in them?
>Jesus died?
>Jesus rose from the dead?
>Jesus is God?
Yes, only they called his Dionysos.
>Because that's the entirety of Christianity.
It's also the entirety of Orphism.
>>1126445
>(except perhaps their inane distaste for all things material as some sort of "lower" reality to the pure one beyond)
Saint Nikitas Stithatos said, in On the Practice of the Virtues (it’s in the Philokalia): “If you refer the activities of the outer senses back to their inner counterparts - exposing your sight to the intellect, the beholder of the light of life, your hearing to the judgment of the soul, your taste to the discrimination of the intelligence, your sense of smell to the understanding of the intellect, and relating your sense of touch to the watchfulness of the heart - you will lead an angelic life on earth; while being and appearing as a man among men, you will also be an angel coexisting with angels and spiritually conscious in the same way as they are.” We worship with all five senses at Divine Liturgy, doctrine is expressed not just in writing, but pictorially, and to the other senses as well The material and the spiritual are complementary, they are not separate places, but different dimensions which properly intersect (“Five senses characterize the ascetic life: vigilance, meditation, prayer, self-control and stillness. Once you have linked your five outward senses to them, joining sight to vigilance, hearing to meditation, smell to prayer, taste to self-control and touch to stillness. you will swiftly purify your soul's intellect: refining it by means of them, you will make it dispassionate and visionary.” ibid.);
cont
>>1126452
hell and heaven are actually different terms for the same dimension (see Ephesians 6:12, which says overtly that our struggle is not against the material, but against the dark spirits who inhabit heaven, also see A6 of this FAQ for the Orthodox conception of hell and how it is the same as heaven); the fall impaired the harmony of these two dimensions, but it will be restored after the restoration of all things--in fact, the only issue is that we can’t see that we are in heaven, because hamartia clouds our ability to detect it; to quote Dostoevsky, “We don't understand that life is heaven, for we have only to understand that and it will at once be fulfilled in all its beauty, we shall embrace each other and weep.” Hamartia is a lie (the Devil is the “Father of all lies”). Christianity is not Gnosticism. “World” in Christianity is a translation of kόσμος (kosmos), which means order...as in, the order of being enslaved to carnal good and evil (see A5 of this FAQ, and: http://deathtotheworld.com/about/ ), which means the material rules us rather than vice versa. The material realm is γῆ (gé), generally translated as “earth”, it’s never used negatively. See the significance of the word here: http://biblehub.com/greek/1093.htm Notice how Plato's Socrates confronted death: he said it was no big deal, and that philosophy is all about no being concerned about it; compare that with how Christ begged to live from His Father at Gethsemane.
>>1126430
Jesus is God.
Jesus rose from the dead.
Confessing that out loud and believing that in your heart makes you a Christian.
Romans 10:9-10 says just that.
It's not a mystery.
>>1126450
It's much older than that, every branch of the Indo-Europeans have this trope in their conceptions of the godhead.
>>1126445
>Ahmadiyya
They have a different person they believe is the Messiah, so no, they would not be Christians, having not confessed Jesus is Lord, and knowing He rose from the dead after paying the sin debt of humanity.
>>1126442
Not the dogma of the trinity and no it is not explicitly present in "Scripture", that bundle of contradictory and edited texts by many authors spanning thousands of years. No, it is found here and there on ocasion.
>>1126460
Fair enough but I'm talking about the technical way they frame it. It's exactly like form theory.
>>1126447
Psalm 110New King James Version (NKJV)
Announcement of the Messiah’s Reign
A Psalm of David.
You may be mad.
>>1126449
So you're saying in Genesis 6:3 and Jacob 33:4 are talking about entities separate from God?
>>1126466
Well Christians were pagan before they were Christian, and educated pagans were well-versed in Platonism, so it's only natural they would use the tools they already had to describe and define their new god.
>>1126463
The dogma of the Trinity is not the term, the term was just invented to express the dogma. The dogma of the Trinity was always with the Church, it just wasn't called that, but the same understanding was there.
>>1126460
They really don’t, though. The Hindu one developed only in medieval Hinduism, and none of the others have this idea of three persons in one God.
I’m not even Christian, but you can’t just make shit up and expect to be taken seriously.
>>1126452
>>1126453
Oh my fucking God, shut up. I meant that they both have the inane idea that you're not supposed to take pleasure in your material existence, and pursue something "higher" beyond it.
It's like you are literally incapable of not responding in anything but a dense wall of text, and can't accept the idea that Christianity may have some actual ideological/historical influences that aren't just "Welp, God gave me the idea to write this shit down" one day to some schmuck.
>>1126462
Actually, they believe Jesus is the Messiah, and their central prophet to be his second coming. So shut up. By the definition you gave, they're Christian.
>>1126447
There was no claim it was a mistranslation, there was simply a claim that the exegesis was wrong. You said that the Psalm was not written by David, but by God (the idea that God inspired the Psalm is in both Christianity and Judaism; the idea that he dictated it is only in Protestantism). You then said Adonai doesn't refer to God in the OT, just to a mortal Lord, so I said, "So God is calling David my Lord?" And you ragequit
>>1126449
Holy Spirit called God Acts 5:3-4
Holy Spirit is the Creator Job 33:4, 26:13
Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead Rom. 8:11
Holy Spirit is Omnipresent Psalm 139:7-10
Holy Spirit is all knowing 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Holy Spirit sanctifies 1 Pet. 1:2
Holy Spirit gives life 2 Cor. 3:6, 8
Holy Spirit fellowships 2 Cor. 13:14, Phil. 2:1
Holy Spirit is eternal Rom. 8:11, Heb. 9:14
Holy Spirit has a will 1 Cor. 12:11
Holy Spirit speaks Acts 8:29, 11:12, 13:2
Holy Spirit loves Rom. 15:30
Holy Spirit searches the heart 1 Cor. 2:10
What was that you were saying again?
>>1126450
There is only one hypostatic union, and His name is Jesus. He is the Son of Man and the Son of God.
>>1126481
>they both have the inane idea that you're not supposed to take pleasure in your material existence
This is not part of Christianity, Christianity only says you are not supposed to take perverse pleasure. God made the material for us to take joy in, and that is why we engage all five senses in Divine Liturgy.
>>1126451
So the Greek religion had Dionysus.
And Christianity has Jesus.
So, totally not the same, at all, ever, in a million years.
>>1126468
They are talking about the Spirit of God. Just as man has a spirit, God also has a spirit. It’s not "separate from God" but it's not the same thing as God either.
>>1126487
>perverse pleasure
Which is a whole shitload of common material pleasures, according to Christianity.
>>1126463
>contradictory and edited
[citations needed]
>>1126485
This is heresy.
>>1126467
And you may be a simpleton. "Ladonee" does not translate as "Lord", and certainly not as "Messiah", it means an earthly ruler or master. Compare how Christians translate the word in Genesis 24:54 and 32:4, compared with how they distort and lie in their translation in Psalms 110. Why do Christians suddenly forget the correct meaning of this word ONLY in Psalm 110?
>>1126473
Christians were never pagan.
Catholics are pagan.
Come back when you can tell the difference.
>>1126485
God has three hypostases: The Father, the Logos and the Spirit. The Logos became flesh, but maintained his singular hypostasis, hence hypostastic union (Greek adjective form of one is used here) between Christ's humanity and divinity.
>>1126479
>and none of the others have this idea of three persons in one God.
This is a central idea in Celtic mythology and is found in some form in every European mythology (for example, the three Norns).
>>1126482
The fuck?
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have appeared in fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the world's reformer during the end times, who was to bring about, by peaceful means, the final triumph of Islam and herald the eschaton as predicted in Islamic scriptures as well as the traditions of various world religions. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the Mujaddid (renewer) of Islam, the promised Messiah and Mahdi awaited by Muslims.
Show me "Jesus" in that mess. This guy's just another antichrist.
>>1126504
Is your definition of sex more or less "fucking while thinking about God"?
Because I recall you going on about that in a Christian sexuality thread one time.
>>1126483
>>1126467
And let's not forget:
Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?
41 And He said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is the Son of David? 42 Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
43 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[h]
44 Therefore David calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?”
>>1126505
All the accounts of these postdate the advent of Christianity considerably.
>>1126460
This. Alain de Benoist expressed this in one of my favorite phrases:
>Eveything that is good about Christianity is not new. And what is new is not good.
It's not correct to say that Christianity is an entirely Semitic religion. It is highly Hellenized and thus highly Aryanized (or Indo-Europeanized if you prefer). Hence the Logos doctrine, essence, hypostasis, mysteries, etc.
It also has a Persian touch (three wise men or magi from the "east" I mean come on). Satan, the Messiah, the final judgement, etc. all come from Zoroastrianism.
>>1126495
Heresy to me is against the bible, not against the Whore of Babylon.
How the Catholics came into the concept of Purgatory? It's literally nowhere in the Bible.
>>1126506
Oh wait, I was confused. I'll admit error here.
>>1126483
>You said that the Psalm was not written by David, but by God
No, this was you playing dumb as usual. None of the Psalms was written by god or David, they were written by anonymous priests. This is also clearly not the relevant part, but rather the mistranslation of ladonee as "messiah". This is not what it means it's not even what Christians think it means as evidenced by their correct translation of this word in Genesis.
>>1126315
Well first of all there is no passage that says Holy spirit=God. In fact they appear as separate beings during the baptism.
So we've already knocked off one part of the trinity.
Now let's talk about Jesus. You do realize there are very, very, very few passages that could be interpretted to say he is the same entity as God. Passages saying he is pre-existent, or had divine powers, etc. are not evidense for God. These are properties that angels can perfume. It also doesn't exclude the possibility of a 2nd deity.
There's only one real passage I can think of which would imply Jesus could be God rather than a separate deity or an angel. Where he says "the father and I are One". But this is only found in one Gospel, the newest one at that, and it's still not very clear (it could mean something like a spirtual oneness, "I am one with the world" etc).
So
*Holy spirit=nothing to suggest he is God
*Jesus=one line to suggest he is God. Ambiguous. The rest of the lines actually read easier if you assume an angel.
>>1126498
Maybe your church teaches this. Maybe you believe it.
It's wrong.
>>1126504
>Is God's Spirit God, or not?
No. It's His Spirit.
>>1126512
Accounts are not the only way to study history.
If they were, we would have very little clue about our past.
>>1126489
Dionysos was the son of God, he was murdered by his earthly enemies, his death redeemed the world, and thru him all men can achieve salvation. Sounds pretty fucking similar to me.
>>1126518
No problem bro. I had to google what you referred to. Never heard of the man.
>>1126532
No offense, but I'm going to assume you've never had sex, because if you did you would understand that thinking about anyone other than who you're fucking simply doesn't happen.
>>1126529
No, but using an account written a hundred years after the advent of Christianity, with concepts similar to Christianity, as a source Christianity was influenced by the religion accounted of, is very, very, very tenuous, it would be exponentially more likely that Christianity influenced the religion in question, if it's not coincidence.
>>1126512
>considerably
If by that you mean they were recorded while the traditions were dying but not yet dead then sure. But ofc you didn't mean that, because you;re a Christian and therefore a liar.
>>1126513
Is there any proof of these influences coming from elsewhere? I know Augustine was a neo-platonic philosopher after his conversion from Manicheism.
To hear the local Christposters claim it. Christianity was invented whole cloth, bestowed by the holy spirit, with no place as a historical phenomenon and I highly doubt those claims.
>>1126537
Well, maybe not....
But I don't see what the problem is.
>>1126539
Yeah, that's what I mean.
>>1126494
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#History_of_textual_criticism_on_John_7:53-8:11
>>1126534
I'm not sure where I got that idea from. I remembered they had a different view of Jesus than mainstream Islam, and got mixed up I think.
Sorry for being a dick about it.
>>1126513
>an entirely Semitic religion.
I really struggle to find anythign semitic about it. The focus on guilt rather than shame is very un-Greek, but aside from that it's indistinguishable from any other mystery religion.
>>1126537
>thinking about anyone other than who you're fucking simply doesn't happen.
Oh really?
>>1126530
You're Zeitgeist tier dude.
“Dionysus was born of a virgin” — Again, this blatantly flies in the face of mythology surrounding this pagan god. The two most common stories of Dionysus’ birth involve the god Zeus, his father, either impregnating the mortal woman Semele, or impregnating Persephone (the Greek Queen of the underworld). In either instance, it is not a virgin birth (and it also gives allusion to the Bible’s description of fallen angels impregnating human women, something written in the book of Genesis 2,000 years before the myth of Dionysus).
“Dionsysus was born on December 25th” — Once again, there is no pre-Christian manuscript or evidence of this. And of course the date of December 25th is not significant since it’s not in the Bible. Some point to Dionysus’ ability to create wine as a sign that Jesus was a copy (since Jesus turned water to wine at a wedding) but Dionysus was the god of wine. Jesus was the Son of God and humanity’s Savior. And while there is non-Christian evidence and proof that Jesus existed, there is none to support that Dionysus was a real person who actually existed. And Jesus Christ was clearly not a copy of Dionysus.
>>1126519
Yeah because Jesus wrote in English, right? Oh yeah that's right, Jesus never wrote anything at all, and the author of Matthew never even met Jesus.
Which is just as well, because if this exchange was accurate, it does not show Jesus in a good light. The Pharisees would have laughed him out of the room for making such a schoolboy error as translating adonee as Messiah, no-one who actually spoke Hebrew could make such an error.
>>1126544
My point is that whichever presbyter laid down the do's and don'ts of Christian sex clearly didn't have a clue. It's like following an artist's guide to astrophysics and expecting it to make sense.
>>1126557
Well, assuming you're fucking someone you actually wanted to fuck in the first place.
>>1126564
We don't have manuals on sex, that would be lewd.
There is nothing wrong with having sex in the joy and spirit of Christ, especially if both are chaste before the wedding. It is something you can't understand because you hate his spirit.
>>1126549
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
There's a reason this is still a hypothesis. It's absurd.
As to the woman, there are questions as to which gospel it originally was written in, as Luke compiled stories from other authors. The story itself is true.
>>1126504
>No, just the perversion of material pleasures
What actually defines a perversion of material pleasures? Because as far as I can tell, it's any pursuit of them that isn't done to glorify this higher existence.
>>1126400
The bible is nonsense and not worth consideration as anything other then a source of unoriginal and frankly boring mythology.
>>1126550
>Sorry for being a dick about it.
This, um, made my day. Thank you.
>>1126505
Source for that claim? I can't find a single reference in the Eddas to the Norns being three-in-one-god. In fact, they weren't even necessarily three.
>Who are the Norns | who are helpful in need,
>And the babe from the mother bring?"
> Fafnir spake:
>13. "Of many births | the Norns must be,
>Nor one in race they were;
>Some to gods, others | to elves are kin,
>And Dvalin's daughters some."
>>1126532
>my Lord [Adonai]."
Amazing, even after being shown to be wrong, you continue to just lie. What a shameless shower of creatures you Christians are, truly you are worse than niggers.
>>1126569
>It is something you can't understand because you hate his spirit.
Oh fucking hell man. People that disagree with you don't hate your position. Though shit like that will certainly not help.
>>1126563
Matthew was one of Jesus' disciples, a tax collector also called Levi. And his Hebrew was apparently not that good, but he tried to reach out to people like YOU and tell YOU that Jesus is your Messiah.
You act as though Adonai and Messiah are mutually exclusive, which is foolish.
>>1126559
He's not talking about the common Greek depiction of Dionysos, he's talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_(religion)
And yes there is written evidence centuries before Jesus was even a twinkle in God's eye.
>>1126573
It's amazing as the only holy book on the planet, and the only shot you have at reaching heaven.
>>1126569
You're a brainwashed and prudish cultist who will never show your feet.
>>1126559
>“Dionysus was born of a virgin”
Where did I say that? Oh wait I didn't! You're just another lying sack of shit! You wouldn't happen to be a Christian, would you?
>>1126579
In the KJV, YHWH is LORD and Adonai is Lord.
>>1126586
Jesus created the universe, so, no.
>>1126569
>because you hate his spirit
Rude. I don't hate anything, I'm just telling you that prudes (such as yourself) have no business explaining how sex works.
>>1126540
Zoroastrianism is a given.
Logos doctrine came from Greek philosophy through Philo of Alexandria, a hellenized Jew. Every serious Christians scholars agree to that, except they try to put it in a way as to say that: "Oh yeah those ignorant pagans had glimpses of the truth but the church has the whoooooole truth" (even though in our scripture it is used in an obscure an confused way as if a Palestinian pleb who only had a superficial notion about it had read it somewhere and decided to use it for his counterfeit fanfic religion).
>>1126585
>Matthew was one of Jesus' disciples
Okay. What does that have to do with the author of the Gospel of Matthew? You realise these were not the same person, right?
>You act as though Adonai and Messiah are mutually exclusive,
No I act as though words have the meanings they have, and not the meanings lying Christians lie about. Go look in Genesis, see how this word is translated.
>>1126586
>Orphism_
The gospel according to demons. But then, you don't believe in demons, so you categorically reject them as sources of information for the Greeks, who prized very highly their oracles. Who were in touch with demons.
>>1126590
>>only holy book on the planet
lol no.
>>only shot you have at reaching heaven
kinda hard to reach a place that doesn't exist.
>>1126595
Yes, and? Are you claiming a mistranslation is more accurate than the actual meaning of the word being translated?
>>1126592
It's copy pasta for Zeitgeist addicts. Nobody said you didn't believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.
You just said that Jesus was a ripoff of Dionysus, which did involve an unusual birth. Of a mythological person.
>>1126602
Zoroaster merely believed the scriptures the Jews brought with them into captivity.
>>1126604
>>the gods of other religions are demons!
>>pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
lol, yet another idiot.
>>1126484
Not one of those says the Holy Spirit is God.
>Acts 5:3-4
Lying to the Holy Spirit means you lied to God. Great. If you lie to someone's spirit, you lie to them. That says nothing about them being the same.
>Job 33:4, 26:13
>Rom. 8:11
>Psalm 139:7-10
>1 Cor. 2:10-11
>every other verse you posted
Zero reference to the Holy Spirit being God, as opposed to being His Spirit.
What was that you were saying again?
>>1126603
Matthew the tax collector known as Levi wrote the Gospel according to Matthew, yes.
Genesis has the proto-evangelion, the foreshadowing of Jesus being the Messiah.
>>1126609
Yes, and places you don't believe in still exist, despite your disbelief.
Same God Who made the earth made heaven and hell.
>>1126610
The totalitarian left and its hatred of free speech on display.
>>1126613
>Jesus was a ripoff of Dionysus
That's not what I mean, religions don't spring into being from nothing, they build on what came before. Just look at all the weird rituals in Judaism and Islam, many of them clearly pagan in character, but that have been reinterpreted in a new light. Same thing happened to the various Saviour gods of the Greeks, they informed the character of their new god, which is why Jesus is so unlike any Jewish figure and so like nearly all Greek ones.
>>1126617
Your pious fiction is an impossibility.
>>1126626
Except heaven and hell are mythical places like Atlantis and Krypton.
>>1126611
You claim there is a mistranslation, but you do not know that Jesus is both Adonai and Messiah. And also YHWH.
So, you're not the expert you think you are.
>>1126617
Gotta love this damage control. The jews had no concept of good and evil as two separate cosmic forces until they learned it from Zoroastrianism.
>>1126620
If you don't want to believe in demons, that's on you. Your disbelief doesn't change anything.
>>1126621
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unpardoned sin, and the sin you just committed.
Congrats.
Repent, and be saved.
>>1126622
Yeah no, it was written decades after the events and Matthew the Apostle was an Aramaic Jew, he wouldn't have written his gospel in educated Greek even if he'd still been alive when it was written, which he may have been idk when he died or even if there's good evidence he existed at all.
>>1126628
Job rationally inferred that God must come down from heaven as a mediator between men and God in order for men and God to have a relationship.
People back then were not less intelligent.
>>1126627
He doesn't hate free speech. He doesn't want to silence you, he wants to exert his freedom to ignore you.
>>1126626
It's not a matter of belief moron, it's a matter of there being no evidence for the existence of these places other then a 2000 year old collection of superstitious stories.
>>1126629
It's the only way it makes sense. There's no record of Zoroaster anywhere in Jerusalem.
>>1126635
As usual, the opposite of what you say is true, is true.
>>1126639
He wrote it in pidgin Hebrew. Maybe 15-20 years after Jesus rose from the dead.
>>1126638
>I have no scriptural basis for my faith, but I'll ignore that pesky little fact and yell "Repent!"
Truly the Devil is subtle and malicious.
>>1126600
How am I a prude? Because I reject sex before marriage? I'm not against sex after marriage, in fact I think it is the duty of both spouses to provide it whenever the other needs it.
>>1126645
Yup. Intolerance to opposing ideas. The hallmark of the godless left.
Do you think it accidental I never have a trip?
>>1126636
I see no reason to believe you over them. I mean, I don't believe the oracles of ancient greece were actually communing with anything other then their own chemically assisted illusions but at the same time I see no reason to believe the claims of the bible either.
>>1126646
The bible suffices.
>>1126633
Adonee never refers to YHWH, not anywhere in any text. It refers to a mortal ruler, one who is BENEATH God. To say this refers to Messiah is simply wrong, and Christians apparently realise his when they correctly translate adonee elsewhere in their texts.
>>1126638
>unpardoned
>Repent
>>1126655
Mark 3
The Unpardonable Sin
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Romans 10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
>>1126656
>Because I reject sex before marriage?
No, when did I say that?
You're a prude because you only view sex through a religious lens.
>>1126636
Your "belief" (that is imagination driven by social, psychological and emotional needs and desires) doesn't make them come into being either, but who would want demons to exist anyway? Oh that's right, Abrahamites so they can play pretend to condemn the people they don't like (everyone) to hell.
>>1126659
Your basis for disbelieving the oracles is also absurd.
The universe does not run per your consent.
You're nobody.
>>1126667
Jesus is my Messiah, my Adonai, and my YHWH.
>>1126602
>Zorastrianism is a given
Wrong, the eschatology Zoroastrianism has in common with Christianity first appears in the Bundahishn, written several hundred years after the advent of Christianity. The main pre-Christian Zoroastrian text is the Avesta, which has nothing in common with Christianity.
Please explain what the Greek concept of Logos is, so I am sure you understand it. Then please explain how that relates to Christology.
>>1126638
>unpardoned sin
>repent
>>1126643
>Job rationally inferred that God must come down from heaven as a mediator between men and God in order for men and God to have a relationship.
There's nothing at all rational about this. A god can do as it pleases, that's the whole point.
>People back then were not less intelligent.
I neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Typical lying Christian.
>>1126674
I view literally everything through a Christian lens. I view eating through a Christian lens, that doesn't make me anorexic.
>>1126657
Listening to the insane and stupid is not a virtue.
>>1126672
Yes, it was not pardoned at the cross with the rest of the sins of mankind.
So it must be dealt with.
It is Unbelief. And Unbelief is pardonable only by confessing Jesus to be Lord, and knowing in your heart He rose from the dead. In that wise, you agree with the Holy Spirit Who is the witness saying that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
All of your other sins have already been forgiven, and were so before you were born.
>>1126652
>He wrote it in pidgin Hebrew.
So who re-wrote it in Greek? Because whoever THAT guy is, he done goofed.
>>1126675
I don't want them to exist. My life would be simpler, easier and safer if they did not exist.
And unlike you, I have made plans to spend eternity away from them, not bumping into them in the dark, while on fire.
>>1126678
>>Your basis for disbelieving the oracles is also absurd.
No it isn't.
>>The universe does not run per your consent.
What's that? The intellectually sub-normal primitive is trying to tell me how the universe works when he seriously believes it runs on christ-magic and pixie dust?
lol
>>You're nobody.
We're all nobodies on here you dumb faggot bitch. But the difference between you and me is that I'm smart enough to not fall for blatant bullshit like xtianity in the year 2016 CE.
>>1126679
Who's forcing anyone to post?
>>1126681
Congrats, you just described your god as a mere human. There are many words in Hebrew that are reserved for God, adonee is not one of them and in fact is NEVER used to refer to god, anywhere in the OT.
>>1126673
I'm not talking about the Unpardonable Sin, I'm talking about your claims that things are in scripture when they're not (namely, that God=God's Spirit.) If anyone is blaspheming, it is you, by adding things about the Holy Spirit into Holy Scripture that were never there.
>>1126691
Do you know what "unpardonable" means?
>>1126685
Wow, your reading comprehension is shit.
Job figured out that God Himself must come to earth as a man in order to reconcile man and God.
And you, capable of reading Job, still have not figured that out.
>>1126686
>I view eating through a Christian lens
Do you eat a lot of fruit?
Cause you just went bananas!
>>1126692
The Greek of Matthew is a translation, and sure isn't any erudite form of Greek, it uses a very non-Greek, Hebraic syntax.
>>1126690
You just violated Thou Shalt Not Murder.
I forgive you though.
>>1125220
>(The word "bible" is also not in the bible, but nobody seems to think that invalidates the bible.)
Not to mention the contents of the bible.
>>1126692
I think Papias, or one of his boys. They all complained that translating it was very difficult. Matthew was an outcast, outside of society, and his Hebrew had no chance of being good. He dealt with people likely in Greek.
>>1126691
>All of your other sins have already been forgiven, and were so before you were born.
You hear that, murderers and rapists? Have at it! You've got nothing to worry about!
>>1126700
Nobody, but then it would be kinda nice to be able to discuss current religions and their historical/social effects without the interference of imbecilic zealots with tiny retard brains.
>>1126693
wtf is a Christo-Islamist? A Muslim?
>>1126711
The Our Father asks for bread, the act of Communion, the central mystery of the Church, is an act of eating. One says grace before eating every time, eating is regulated on fast days, and multiplied on feast days. Eating is a communing together of loved ones, and a physical manifestation of God's sustainment of our existence and his nurturing of us.
I do like fruit, ofc. Especially useful for fast days.
>>1126699
It is absurd to use your normalcy bias to not believe the oracles were in touch with supernatural beings, yes.
Your biases are powerless, and useless, and cause you to be foolish.
>>1126710
>Job figured out that God Himself must come to earth as a man in order to reconcile man and God.
And I repeat, this is not an impressive feat since it is simply wrong. God could simply choose to have a personal relationship, BAM, no human sacrifice needed.
>>1126724
Protestant.
>>1126731
Christ's Sacrifice isn't juridical, it's the vehicle for which God physically and spiritually communes with the human condition.
>>1126703
Mere? No, He is not "mere" in any way, shape or form. He was as much human as though He were not God, but He was also God as much as though He were not human.
You are obviously and painfully unaware of the idea of a Kinsman Redeemer. Maybe read more bible. Like Ruth. One of Jesus' ancestors.
>>1126705
I gave you a laundry list of bible verses showing that the Holy Spirit of God is God. You saying "nope" just makes you wrong. It has no effect on the bible or the nature of God.
>>1126741
Doesn't God know everything? Why does he need a vehicle?
>>1126729
>I do like fruit, ofc.
Do you like dry fruits encased in a hard shell?
Cause you're nuts!
>>1126682
>Christology
Lol. Oh I do understand it, but I won't waste my time writing a gigantic post because I already know your answer in advance.
>Dude, Christ-Logos is a completely new and different thing "revealed" by God, nothing to do with that evil Greek bagan thing at all
>>1126742
Now you're just babbling foolishness.
>>1126708
Yes. It's the sin that if you die having committed it, you are doomed to hell. You stand condemned before your trial for your unbelief.
There is no second chance.
However, in this age of grace, while you yet live, you can repent, which means to change your mind, and agree with the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and be saved.
Your thinking ends at death. Mine does not.
>>1126730
Supernatural beings do not exist. Your god does not exist, and neither do the demons you wish to use to frighten people on this board into believing in your god.
>>Your biases are powerless, and useless, and cause you to be foolish.
My biases are actually much closer to the truth then yours are, because they are based on observable reality. The self-same observable reality that says jebus-magic isn't real.
>>1126754
>Your thinking ends at death. Mine does not.
Yours never started m8.
>>1126719
They have Unbelief, as you do, to worry very much about.
It's a shame in your self-righteousness that you think you are better than a murderer and a rapist, when you are in fact a murderer and a rapist.
>>1126750
For God to be physically one with us, he has to be physical. This isn't a matter of lack of knowledge. For God to do to the dead and commune with them, he has to go to the dead and commune with them. For God to commune with those suffering from sin, he has to become part of their suffering.
>>1126743
Genesis 15:2 It's used to address God
>>1126722
Maybe experiencing why the power of the Word of God exists will help you understand how it changed the world.
Or you can stay dull and ignorant. I won't try to stop you from posting your dull and ignorant posts.
>>1126760
>when you are in fact a murderer and a rapist.
The only thing I murder and rape IS THAT UPVOTE BUTTON MY DUDE, +1'd!!!
>>1126761
So God isn't all powerful?
>>1126731
And that's why I say you are no match for Job, because Job knew that God is holy, just and righteous, and you thing God is some sort of genie.
>>1126758
Savage
a
v
a
g
e
>>1126743
wtf are you babbling about now?
>>1126752
The Greek pagan concept is that Logos is a universal mind that all creatures think with, which always existed with a creation that always existed. The Christian concept of Logos is a person of God who creates the world and is distinct from it, our minds being our own.
>>1126760
>when you are in fact a murderer and a rapist.
Wow, you sound like a stereotype of a tumblrina.
>>1126746
You gave me a laundry list of verses, exactly zero of which mention the Holy Spirit being God. Anyone can read them for themselves in two minutes and see it plainly. Just because you say "haha, I declare that this verse means this thing I just made up" doesn't mean God will agree with you after your death.
Come back when you have Scripture that ACTUALLY SAYS what you claim it says.
I will pray for you.
