What does /his/ think of Ali
[obnoxious Persian disco intensifies]
Not a muslim, but from the outside it appears that shia>>>>>>sunni. Ali should have been leader first but arabs had to go full retard
>>1104514
Ahura Mazdra in disguise.
>>1104588
I'm just curious. Why do you say Ali should have been first? But the Shura's vote was not in his favor
>>1104514
A Gentile for Ali. He genuinely loved the Prophet and was not treated well by those thirsting for power after the prophet's death.
(I can hear the Sunni / Shia shitstorm approaching this thread)
>>1104662
Shia detected
>>1104621
The will of the prophet that Umar didn't let him write, claiming he was mad. It's such a weird event...
Anyways, muslims have a pretty stupid vision of the beginning of islam. The way they think the first caliphs were all great guys and that everyone loved the prophet clearly show they don't really understand history.
He wrassled with an alligator. Tussled with a whale. Handcuffed lightning and thrown thunder in jail. Once, he murdered a rock. Injured a stone. Hospitalized a brick.
He was so mean that he made medicine sick
>>1104974
No, it's you who have the retarded vision of the early beginning of Islam. The first few Caliphs, especially Umar and Uthman, were extremely competent and the reason why the religion was able to spread. Ali showed his incompetence when he took the reign, losing the First Fitna. The only things Ali had going for him are his bravery in battle (which has been exaggerated), his very early conversion to Islam and him being Muhammad's cousin.
>>1104986
I guess Yazid was competent too when he killed the family of the prophet.
>>1104997
Yes. We're not Muslims here - we should look at it from a historical perspective.
>>1104986
>who is Khalid
>>1105008
A good general, and Umar did well to absolve him from his duties because he was getting reckless.
>>1105010
>#rekt'ing Byzatium and Persia with shit logistics and a significant number of undisciplined auxiliaries
>getting reckless
no
>>1105020
There are plenty of stories about him being reckless, I forgot most of them but just an example from his wikipedia page:
>taking a lot of money out of your state treasury to pay a poet who wrote nice things about you
Reckless.
>>1105027
nigga, he deserved it
>>1105028
>letting your general run amok
Would could go wrong?
>>1104986
>his very early conversion to Islam and him being Muhammad's cousin.
Seems to me to the best reasons why he should Caliph. If anyone understood the Quran theologically, it would be Ali.
I can understand Sunnis saying don't worship Ali or think his family is flawless, but I still have a hard time imagining how the prophet Muhammed would pass over Ali as Caliph.
I think he was mad that most of the Mohammad opponents just switched sides and enjoyed privileges even more than the original Muslims who were with Mohammad from the start
The opportunists who converted to Islam just because it became dominant were also resentful towards the first Muslims. I think this was the reason of the conflict.
>>1105247
That is one reason though history is never that simple. It was also about different Ideas such as a dynastic Caliphate and Parliamentary Caliphate (Shura) that led to conflict.
>>1105232
But if Ali became the first Caliph it would start a Sayyid (descendant of the Prophet) Dynasty. Yes,I know the Umayyads were a Dynasty but the first three Caliphs did not know that yet, they tried to keep the Shura system running(the Shura was a Parliament made from influential people and other men of importance)
>>1104514
I'm an Arab Christian, I've read a lot about the history of Islam. I honestly think Ali was pretty good, and he was better than Muhammad. I think if Ali was the prophet of Islam rather than Muhammad, Islam would have turned out much differently and would probably be somewhat more similar to Christianity today. Ali was much more peaceful and diplomatic with non-Muslim peoples.
>>1104621
The first example of "Arab democracy" being a horribly tragic experiment, unfortunately to be repeated many times.
>>1104514
Objectively the one who should have succeeded Muhammad.
Now, the shia/sunni stuff is a completely different history and I will not take sides in theological debates.
>>1105895
Yes, it worked out SO terribly for Islam!
>>1105988
Well it did go well for the Caliphate but not so much for Islam
Pic related
Why do Shia seem so much more tolerant than Sunni? Did he tell them not to be assholes?
>>1106199
it comes more from latter ideological developments as opposed to the initial split
the Sunni hare highly rationalistic and put a heavy emphasis on logic, likewhise they tend to come to these zero sum situations where supere logicl leads them down pretty shady paths
Shia emphasise the mystical aspects more and embrace them as opposed to the Sunni who largely detached themselves from their own mystical traditions (the Sufi mystics)
Shia has a number of Saints and other holy men who occupy important positions for many Muslims similar to how they do in Christianity
>>1106165
The only rift that matter is the Sunni-Shia one.
>>1105008
>>1105010
Without Khalid at Yarmouk, Islam would be nothing more than a Jewish heresy confined to the Arabian desert.
Still, the fact that Khalid obeyed the Caliph and stepped down is pretty impressive. He showed his devotion to the movement.
>>1106458
Because both Christians and Shias are followers of losers (Christ and Ali)
