Daily reminder Paul the homosexual and neurotic obsessive Hellene hijacked the Christian religion.
Paul preached a number of doctrines that were considered disgusting and pagan by James and Peter (who had actually spoken with Jesus).
For one, James and Peter held Jesus to be an annointed human (Messiah) and prophet: at no point did they believe he was pre-existent or that he was God, as Paul taught.
The Bible is written in a pro-Paulian light, seeing as Paul's epistles were written down before the Gospels had coalesced, and as such, when the Gospels were being transcribed, they were written down through the lens of Paulian thought.
The Jerusalem Church of Peter and James was destroyed and scattered due to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, leaving Paul in Asia Minor free to spread his cult.
Luckily, a few hints still remain in the Bible that speak to us of the conflict between Paul and the Jerusalem Church: the Incident at Antioch (in which Paul was BTFO'd), the interpolation of "Jesus' hometown/family rejection". The original disciples believed Paul to be a lunatic at best, and possibly a demon.
It is safe to say that Christianity as it is today is based completely on Paul's teachings: the original teachings of Jesus are lost and may never be known, thanks to the persecution of the Ebionite 'heretics' under the Church.
>>1036751
Are there any records of James and Peter disputing Paul over the nature of Jesus Christ?
>>1036751
>Paul the homosexual and neurotic obsessive Hellene hijacked the Christian religion
[citation needed]
>>1036751
>James and Peter held Jesus to be an annointed human (Messiah) and prophet
Islam believes Jesus was a prophet too
>>1036881
Islam believed that Jesus is the messiah and a prophet, but they don't see him as God. Islam preaches a oneness of God.
What have Jews historically thought of Paul and his cultural appropriation of their religion?
>>1036906
Wait, Jesus is the Messiah in Islam? Then what the heck is Muhammad? Going from 'Messiah and Prophet' to 'some other prophet' seems like a step down.
>>1036908
http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=738
>>1036751
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Bishops got together and decided that Jesus was God and all the trinity bullshit. Absolutely hilarious.
>>1036908
Negatively, but to be hoenst, most Jews don't have a very firm grasp on the components of Christianity. To a lot of Jews, what focus exists on Christianity is more about institutional action and persecution than theology and how it developed.
If you get people who study both Judaism and Paul's writings in general though, you get to be pretty dismissive, you might want to look up "The Problem of Paul" by Hyam Maccoby for something pretty representative of Jewish thought on the figure. But the tldr is extreme skepticism that Paul was a Pharisee or held any sort of religious post, and probably only had a cursory religious education. He jumbles together a number of contemporary Jewish theological notions, but managed to get away with it because he was primarily preaching to gentiles who wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.
>>1036908
I've heard a claim that Paul didn't claim Jesus was God and was just trying to preach the Noahide Laws. Jews don't think that everyone has to follow their laws (unless they convert), just 7 Noahide Laws that supposedly were set down in the time of Noah
>>1036919
Basically Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed and others are considered Prophets in Islam, Adam is the first Prophet.
Muhammed is suppose to be the ""Seal of the Prophets", ie, the last one God sends to earth to guide mankind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam
>>1036942
Just confused that they would use the word 'Messiah' when he's not actually the Saviour, just the hypeman. Lots of prophets makes sense, having someone they acknowledge as Messiah be there, only for them to say, "Yeah, we'll wait for the next one," is super weird. Reading around, seems to be they get around that by saying that Jesus is focused on the Jews alone.
>>1036942
Not that anon, but I too am confused about something about Jesus's role in Islam, but more specifically, Messianism.
One of the big reasosn you have splits between Judaism and Christianity is that the Christian conception of the Messiah seems to be God incarnating to fix the spiritual ails of the world, whereas the Jews viewed the Messiah as a human warrior-king who would conquer the world, right wrongs, and institute a very earthly notion of paradise.
As far as I know, Muslims claim that Jesus was the "messiah", but what exactly does that mean?
>>1036751
>James and Peter (who had actually spoken with Jesus).
But OP Paul also spoke with Jesus.
>>1036995
lol, no he had visions which were probably just an altered state of mind
>>1036958
First anon you asked misspoke. Christ is not "The Messiah" in Islam, just a very important prophet.
>>1037036
For what it's worth, Muslims believe that it'll be Jesus who comes back during the apocalypse, not Muhammad, so as far as prophets go Jesus at least seems to more preeminent role in Islam (behind Muhammad of course.)
Whether that qualifies him as "the Messiah" or not IDK.
>>1036958
Moshiach (the Hebrew word Messiah comes from, which is XRISTOS in Greek - Christ in English) means "anointed one." It doesn't mean "died on a cross for the forgiveness of sins" - whether Christ did that or not.
What's up with the Book of Revelation? Most Christians I know don't seem to like talking about it.
>>1037340
That's because no one really knows what the fuck its on about. Some think it's a literal end-times prophecy, others think it's a coded message to christians during roman persecution, and others still think it's allegory for any number of things.
>>1036751
t. Muhammad
>>1037004
He spoke with the resurrected Jesus.
>>1037369
Yeah, this is basically word for word what muslims think about Christianity.
>>1036919
Islam holds that every prophet other than Muhamid has had their words corrupted. Muhammad surpasses Jesus because he was able to correct the mistakes that Jesus's followers made in recording his teachings.
It's actually an ingenious justification for their religion. Christianity is founded on the idea that the Jewish priests corrupted their own religion which gives permission for the torch to be passed on to the new Christian priesthood. Christians cannot fully rebuke the Muslim position without compromising their own origin story. The clause that Muhammid's teachings cannot be corrupted and that no new prophets also prevents people from using the same tactic on themself.
>>1037530
I don't know, if you look at the Jewish scriptures, they also claim that no later prophet can abrogate the laws that Moses gave, given that he was the greatest prophet who spoke to God "Face to face", and the Christians got around that just fine.
I'm sure someone sufficiently inventive could come up with a reason why their new spiritual leader is also right and even Muhammad got it wrong, once they get enough followers anyway.
>>1037530
>The clause that Muhammid's teachings cannot be corrupted and that no new prophets also prevents people from using the same tactic on themself.
This is essentially the same circular reasoning Christians use to say Jesus's words were not corrupted because Jesus words claim to be from God. The Bahai faith applies this same reasoning (the scripture that claims to be inerrant is not, here's a new prophet to clarify everything) to Islam and all Abrahamic monotheism. Muslims can't actually object to this without undercutting their own argument. Muhammed was a clever guy, but apparently not clever enough.
>>1037431
>oh guys I totally talked to messiah who is still alive despite dying
>He said that I'm right about everything and you should all join my church
Paulites confirmed for gullible gentiles
>>1037340
It's a 2nd century book, the claim it was written by John is definitely false.
It's generally understood that it's a coded anti-Roman message. There was a genuine beleif that Nero would come back from the dead and kill Christians.
>>1037539
This is correct. Christians tend to ignore Moses spoke face to face with God, if Moses never saw a trinity that really discredits Christianity.
Essentially early Christianity was marked by a desire to discredit Judaism. The holy day was moved one day forward, Paul claims the Old Testament is the word of angels not God, John is written with the purpose of accusing Jews of oppressing God as a way of wrestling away God from their hands.
There is also no real reason to suspect that Muhammad's word wasn't corrupted: it too contains contradictions and was written long after the events.
>I'm sure someone sufficiently inventive could come up with a reason why their new spiritual leader is also righ
Joseph Smith supposedly spoke to Jesus who directly told him that all translations of all holy texts are corrupted. He than gave Smith the correct version. Honestly it's the same crap that Paul pulled.
The thing about Monothism is that it's inheritatly a moralizing religion. One God means there is no alternative opinions. Whoever is the rightful prophet of God (or the correct interpretation) wields supreme moral authority over all that worship the spook. In contrast Polytheism can allow for an infinitutude of views, since what one God likes another God hates. There is also some sort of meta-divine force like Karma or Tao that while not providing moral absolutes, does provide a basic structure.
>>1037545
All monotheistic faiths are correct and have the correct prophets, provided you take certain assumptions as axioms.
The thing is that when one Monotheistic faith evolves from another they strategically try to discredit the previous movement. Paul claimed the Old Testament was written by Angels while his teachings come from a higher source, meaning he can contradict the Old Testament. Muhammad got whole world's history from Gabriel, he doesn't contradict Paul, he says "real history"
>>1037573
>the claim it was written by John is definitely false.
I thought it was a different John than the gospel writer? Did people really think it was the same John writing those two?
>>1037604
>Christians tend to ignore Moses spoke face to face with God, if Moses never saw a trinity that really discredits Christianity.
Not really. That's like saying God revealing his name as Yahweh discredits him being known earlier as El Shaddai. Obviously the original intent was different but the shoehorning was not explicitly contradicted.
>>1037617
>Did people really think it was the same John writing those two?
Yep.
>I thought it was a different John than the gospel writer
John isn't even written by 1 person. It was written in stages. Also given the date of when the earliest parts are from it's extremly unlikely the John of Jesus's desciple. John's earliest dates are 90CE. Jesus was born around 4-6 BCE. The idea that John didn't bother writing anything till he was a 96 year old man is absurd.
>>1037625
I seem to recall a quote from John that says no one had seen the face of God.
The idea that someone with Jewish upbringing would not remember the spirtual journey of his religion's most celebrated prophet is absurd. John was most likely written by gentiles.
>>1036763
>Are there any records of James and Peter disputing Paul over the nature of Jesus Christ?
Somewhat. If you read between the lines in the epistles you can tell Paul got BTFO at least once. Basically: confrontation going to happen - then we never hear the end result.
But no direct records. Quite possibly because Paul was BTFO but Pauline doctrine won so the records were destroyed. There was a lot of destruction of anything non "orthodox" in the early church.
>>1037638
Moses doesn't see God's face. He sees his backside.
>But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live...you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
Exodus 33:20-23
>>1037649
>Moses saw God's butt
Yahweh is a tease.
>>1037649
John's Gospel doesn't specify face of behind. It just says no one has seen him at all.
>>1037659
That is shirk dude , you are going to hell
>>1037552
>messiah who is still alive despite dying
yep
>>1037431
All we have to go by this is the Book of Acts (which was written long after Paul had died and contains a lot of fanfic) and perhaps Paul himself. He's like Joseph Smith reading off the Magic Tablets.
>>1036751
OP get it.
I remember when I came to this conclusion myself. I feel the worst for James, Jesus's brother. He must have loved Jesus and knew him best, only to be underhanded by lying Paul, a guy who was obviously just looking for power and control of gentiles.
James was called James the Just by everyone, including the Romans. Apparently he was the closest thing to Christ because he WAS closest to Christ.
>>1037296
XPISTOS
>>1036919
Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed are all "prophets." All are just divinely anointed but otherwise ordinary men. Mohammed is special because he is supposed to be the very last.
>>1036930
And this is why the Heebs will never enter the Heavenly Kingdom, for God has blinded you with your own pride. You can't even read the words of your prophets, who all spoke of Jesus.
Hey, OP, I'm the one who originally wrote what you posted.
So, thanks for copy-pasting, I suppose. Will my anti-Christcuck diatribe turn into a meme?
>>1039352
Enjoy hellfire, atheistcuck.
>>1039366
>literally defending/whiteknighting a fictional character
As cancerous as waifu-fags.
>>1036751
>Be Saul
>Be born to Gentile parents
>Start getting homosexual urges, really want it stop
>Go to temple of Attis every day to get my life on track
>Going to school and learning about Plato and his crazy Forms, got my degree in Gnostism
>Unable to contain my raging homo-lust for Attis and his sweaty body
>Feel tremendous guilt from my fag-hating parents
>Think I'm turned gay by a male succubus
>Idolize the Pharisee for their sexual purity. Figure if I join them I can stop masterbating so much
>Wanna be a Rabi but don't even know Hebrew!
>Go to them and say I want to join their club
>They tell me it's "Jews only"
>WTF, these guys don't even know you gotta eat God to be God.
>They kick me out of their temple
>Childhood dream of being a Rabbi crushed. Still feel like shit for being a fag
>Appearently my Gnostism degree is worthless so I have to make tents for a living. Fucking liberal arts!
>Leave town. Realize that if I start preaching to the Gentiles I can pretend to be a rabbi!
>Hear about this new Jewish prophet called Jesus, don't know much but fill in the blank with stuff about Attis and Hellenic philosophy
>Things are going great, started own religion, life starts picking up
>Tell everyone no homo!
>Huh you can't eat pork? That's a stupid rule.
>Read Greek translations to learn about Jesus and his Jew religion.
>This is nothing like my Hellenstic theology? Where's all the Forms? Where's the dying and rising Gods? They must have made some mistakes.
>Well maybe I can combine the two togeather! That liberal arts degree is coming in handy. Add in some special rituals to spice it up!
>Asshole named James shows up and claims he's the real leader of the followers of Jesus
>Don't wanna get rejected again so I go to him and decide to show off my education
>"I'm a real apostle too! Jesus gave me the secret Gnosis he didn't tell you guys"
>They make fun of me and my Forms
>Go home crying
>Masterbate to Attis
>Feel guilty afterwords
Being Paul is suffering
>>1039399
I'm not catholic, so that image does nothing to me.
Keep trying.
>>1036751
Fuck off Muslim/Arian scum, I'm sick of people shitting on Paul.
>>1041000
He's right though. In the bible there is not a single book which is not written anomalously 20-50 years after Paul or written by Paul and the people that personally knew Jesus accused him of being a liar. Paul's backstory is confirmed as a lie, but he does show a great knowledge of Hellenistic, Gnostic, and Mystery cult knowledge.
The only thing in the OP that is even remotly contestable is Paul's homosexuality which isn't very unlikely. The man admitted to never sleeping with women and being overcome with a forbidden lust.
>>1041118
If he was truly Hellene it's almost confirmed he got some boipussy
>>1041118
Let us see some proofs. Post links to credible sources (not Jewish nor Muslim) or at least chapters and verses that mention Paul being accused by "the people that personally knew Jesus".
>>1036751
>Paul preached a number of doctrines that were considered disgusting and pagan by James and Peter (who had actually spoken with Jesus).
So you're buttblasted because you wanted some 100% Jewish-as-fuck religion instead?
>>1037359
Cultural Catholic here.
I just look at all of scripture as one big parable desu senpai. Except for literal historical instances.
>>1041305
Have you been so brainwashed by the Paulian tradition that when the people that the one's that actually were there you call them liars?
James spent his entire life with Jesus, from birth to death, he was respected by virtually everyone that knew Jesus and even the Pagan authors acknowledge his role (he is the only person other than Jesus they ever wrote about). Literally hundreds of people would have vouched he knew Jesus, including Christ's own mother! You dennounce him for uploading the very religion your Jesus taught (which was completly Jewish)
Than a new guy comes up who's only credentials is his own testimony, a guy who gave nothing but lies about his background, claims to have "secret Gnosis", and is denounced as a deceiver by everyone that knew Christ....and you accept everything he says unconditionally!
LOL
>>1041361
Then why are Paul's books in the Bible?
Why are they canon?
Infact, Paul's epistles are the most important after the Gospels, essential for doctrine and understanding the Christian lifestyle.
I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.
>>1036919
They call Jesus the messiah, but by that, they only mean that He was a leader of the Jews. Not the Anointed One.
>>1041361
not him, but the evidence anything other than the Pauline tradition is scant and at most you can say is that there were was a guy named James that was leading a christian sect that followed the law. we can't even be sure he is Jesus's brother. Paul's mention of him as the brother of the Lord could be meant in the same sense that he mentions other brothers of the Lord: as simply followers of Christ. the mention of James as the brother of Jesus in Josephus is dubious at best. the only supposed writing we have of James, the epistle in the NT, doesn't show any personal knowledge about Jesus. the only thing you have is the assumption that the Essenes were the "correct" sect
>>1036960
"leader"
It's a slap in the face to both Jews and Christians.
>>1037004
Paul spent time with Jesus after Jesus rose from the dead, and wrote about it, many times.
Maybe read the bible.
>>1037340
What do you want to know? It starts with John the beloved apostle being taken into the third heaven, where God and the angels live. Jesus gives John 7 letters for 7 churches in Asia Minor. These churches existed; however, they are also the 7 types of churches, and depict the changing ages of the church by which is dominant.
After that, it goes to "things that will be", i.e. prophecy. It is very specific, very well ordered and organized, and predicted things like a country with the Chinese military colors fielding a 200,000,000 man army.
It is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ as it depicts Jesus coming down from heaven in the clouds, in glory, to rule the world for a thousand years.
>>1037604
Wrong about literally everything.
>>1041370
>Then why are Paul's books in the Bible?
>Why are they canon?
His writings were first collected by Marcion, a known Gnostic. These letters are the only parts of the bible that we actually know the name of the author for (the so called Gospels were anonymously written). All the real followers of Jesus focused entirly on the Jewish people. Paul's message spread to Gentiles, most of them who had no clue about the Old Testament and were more comfortable with Hellenistic ideas. Paul being the only Hellenisized/Gnostic "Christian" was their favorite. Most of them wouldn't even be able to read the language of the actual followers of Jesus.
In other words Paul had a monopoly. After a few years of this it came to be that any writings which did not fall in line with Paul were declared heresy. The Christian writers even freely admit that there were other versions of the Gospels (which they destroyed) written by those in the communities Jesus actually preached in. Closness to Paul, not Closeness to Christ was the number one priority for deciding what was cannon.
>Infact, Paul's epistles are the most important after the Gospels, essential for doctrine and understanding the Christian lifestyle.
No shit. Any writing that didn't fit his style was declared heresy. He was founder of the religion so of course everything matches up with him.
>I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.
Analyzing history and arriving at conclusions you personally dislike is not "hate".
>>1037617
Same John wrote the Gospel according to John, John 1, 2, and 3, and the Revelation. The apostle.
>>1037631
Just fucking wrong about everything.
>>1037648
More absolute fucking bullshit.
>>1038189
Holy shit another one that's absolutely fucking wrong.
>>1038624
Wrong.
Fucking wrong.
What is this plague?
>>1038834
Adam is not a prophet, Mohammad is definitely not a prophet, and Jesus is God.
>>1041361
Paul was sure as hell not Gnostic.
Dunno where you got that from. Paul himself states that he was raised a Jew and prior to his dramatic conversion, he claimed to be the most Jewish Jew that ever Jewed.
Again, do you have evidence that he was a Hellenized Jew at least apart from his birth in a Roman territory.
Am actuallyy curious here.
>>1039583
100% bullshit.
>>1041411
>Marcion, a known Gnostic
Hold the fuck up.
The only sources we have on Marcion are Catholic ones.
Catholics view Marcion as an enemy/heretic, so they could've lied about him.
Catholics also murdered Waldensians and Albigensians, which were basically proto-protestants (believed in scripture alone).
Bible-believing Christians were often confused with being dualists/gnostics because Catholics didn't understand their position.
I would take the idea that Marcion was a gnostic, with a grain of salt.
>>1041118
No, he's fucking wrong, and you're fucking wrong.
>>1041413
Or at least a third to fourth generation disciple.
>>1041361
James never believed Jesus was the Messiah until after the resurrection.
>>1041370
Bunch of fucking liars is where it's coming from.
>>1041411
Holy shit you can't just make up this many shit tier lies and think anyone believes you.
>>1041370
>I don't understand where all this Paul hate comes from.
It comes from either fags and feminists who don't like that paul makes rules against them, or it comes from jewish anti-missionary groups who don't like stuff like "messianic judaism" taking root in israel.
>>1041361
t. Isaac Ben Abrahamsberg
>>1041440
I want to rip the living shit out of each and every one of these unsourced contrarian bullshit Jewish/Gnostic lies, yes.
>>1041440
I am very out of touch with Bible scholarship, so I must ask for sources.
>>1041442
The apostle whom Jesus loved wrote them all. John, a son of thunder.
>>1041440
>What these annons are saying is generally accepted history and biblical analysis.
In the Church of Satan.
>>1041463
None of their bullshit is in the bible. Not one single word of it.
>>1036751
>The Jerusalem Church of Peter and James was destroyed and scattered due to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, leaving Paul in Asia Minor free to spread his cult.
Paul was killed years before this.
EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT PAUL IS A LIE.
God promised to preserve His word.
So OP by saying that Paul was just like Mohammed/Joseph Smith (a false prophet), you're saying that God lied because the Bible contains false books.
>>1037604
>The holy day was moved one day forward
Because Jesus rose one day after. That has nothing to do with "discrediting."
>>1041438
Marcion created the first "bible" he removed all Old Testament sources from the cannon because for him that represented the tradition of an evil, lesser God.
>>1041435
>Dunno where you got that from. Paul himself states that he was raised a Jew and prior to his dramatic conversion, he claimed to be the most Jewish Jew that ever Jewed.
Yet he fails basic Jewish theology. He mixes up Saudeecee and Pharisee idea. This is 1st centuary Jewery 101 and he fails it. Most likely he never knew a word of Hebrew and based his understanding off Greek translated copies of the bible, which real Jews at the time didn't use because they were poor translations.
It's generally understood Paul's entire backstory is a fabrication designed to make him look good.
Paul's terminology is loaded with Hellenistic type language.
>Paul was sure as hell not Gnostic.
Marcion, a known Gnostic, was the first to compile and destribute Paul's letters. Paul was so popular with the Gnostics that Valentinus declared him "the greatest apostle". Rather than being perceived as an opponent the Gnostics embraced him! Paul's writings are filled references to "mysteries" and "revealed wisdom". His writing style also doesn't seem to refer to Jesus as a person but some sort of astral figure who has a presence in the initiated. In fact Paul's claim to have special Gnosis the other Apostle's didn't was used to legitmize Gnostic teachers.
>>1041492
He's also saying Paul is contrary to the rest of the disciples.
Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
2 Peter 3
and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
>>1041505
PROVE ANY OF THIS, YE VIPER.
>>1041505
There is one character, however, which was undoubtedly one of the devil’s own agents: the heretic Marcion, who lived in the second half of the Second Century. Marcion taught that the entire Old Testament should be rejected because it belonged to an evil, inferior God, and not to the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth.
>>1041505
"Irenaeus writes in Against Heresies (1.17.2 ), “Besides this, he [Marcion] mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most clearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father.
GREAT SOURCE
>>1036751
DAILY REMINDER TO NEVER LISTEN TO JEALOUS JEWS TALK ABOUT PAUL AND JESUS
>>1041505
Hm. Interesting.
Again, could you link me to sites or recomend me books related to this? It's either this or searching JSTOR for this.
>>1041458
>>1041457
>>1041466
Aww Christians, vile hateful wurms that scream "Satan" or "Jew" at the first sign of having their feelings hurt.
>>1041463
A basic wikipedia check will confirm that all 4 Gospels are considered to be written at the dates I mentioned and their authorship is considered unknown. None of this is in dispute anymore than the Holocaust (aka only paranoid retards think it never happened).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Dating
EP Sanders and Meiers should cover the more detailed stuff. If you want a quick intro watch or read Erman's "How Jesus became God"
>>1041273
The evidence is in your fucking Bible, idiot. It's called the Incident at Antioch.
>>1041568
This thread is literally started by a viper in the Synagogue of Satan.
It's complete and utter bullshit, from reliance on gnostics to heretics to just flat lies.
A quick reality check will tell anyone reasonable that wiki is not a reliable source for the things of the bible.
And Bart Ehrman is a heretic going to hell. His work has been refuted by everyone who knows him. He is a book writing whore. Follow him. Please.
>>1041570
Oh? And what is Paul being accused of there?
>>1041580
He did not compile Paul's letters. He had copies of Paul's letters. He made his own 11 book canon.
He is a known heretic, and you are a known liar.
>>1041580
Your sources are wiki and your ass.
God will repay you to your face. Bet on it.
>>1041580
Irenaeus says YOUR SOURCE MARCION IS A FUCKING HERETIC WHO BELIEVES THERE ARE TWO GODS; ONE OT AND ONE NT.
YOU FUCKING VIPER.
>>1041579
Don't worry bro. Everyone that hurts your feeling is going to hell.
The founders of these ideas are other Christians. Erman's ideas arn't even his own. He just takes John P. Meier's ideas and explains them in an easy to digest ideas. What I am telling you has been the mainstream view in New Testament scholarship for decades, and it's put forth by Christians.
But don't worry it's probably a conspiracy by Satan or the Jews and Jeebus will kick their ass when he gets here!
>>1041568
Do you know why your scumbag godless wiki people date the gospels well after they were written?
BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN PROPHECY.
>Christcucks calling others 'VIPERS! SINNERS!' when they get mad that objective reality doesn't align with their mythology
This is a history board - head on over to you containment board/hugbox. Also, you sound ridiculous - why not just the usual 'faggot!' or 'idiot!' instead of these LARP-tier 'viper! sinner! devil!'?
>>1041611
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 23:33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Luke 3:7 [ John Preaches to the People ] Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
>>1041611
One day you will know how offensive this thread is.
One day you will pay for this thread.
And I will be there, watching.
FYI to everyone in this thread
Bart Erman is an atheist and discredited scholar and the people in the thread spouting bullshit are all just blindly following his teachings
A good scholar for the histocricy of the Bible and on Paul in particular is N.T Wright
>>1041599
But annon the people that dated these are other Christians.
>>1041605
Erman was a devote Protestant until he actually studied the bible. It's not uncommon for Christians to take classes that teach bible history and emerge as having less faith.
>>1041611
It gives them the moral high-ground. They get to roleplay being Jeebus and fighting evil Jews and Demons.
>>1041622
You can't possibly be amused by this shitposting.
>>1041370
Because Paul's epistles were written down before the Gospels were ever transcribed. At the time of Paul's ministry, the story of Jesus was passed on as oral history.
In 70AD, Judea was reduced to ashes when the Romans put down the famous Jewish revolt, which had the result of dispersing and eradicating most of the original disciples of Jesus - that is, those Jews led by James. On the other hand, Paul - preaching in Asia Minor - was unaffected, and the oral history was very much susceptible to Paulian interpolations now that the other holders of the oral history - the Jerusalem followers - were gone.
Once the Gospels were finally written down, the only source of the story was an oral history that had been filtered through Paul exclusively and with Paulian theology as described in the epistles: the story was made to fit what had been outlined in the epistles, and not the way around.
Modern-day Christcucks owe more to Paul than Jesus, and it is very likely that - in their persecutions -, the Church establishment destroyed whatever was left of the original teachings and words of Jesus when the Ebionites and other Jewish-Christians were demonized and treated as heretics.
>>1041643
Personally, I find all of this very interesting.
If I needed to lose faith, I'd just have to look at what Christians do and believe in today.
>>1041650
Didn't Paul die sometime around 63AD?
>>1041676
c.67CE
>>1041681
If Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD how could Paul have been preaching in Asia Minor after that?
>>1041676
I get your implication, but even if Paul died before the destruction of Jerusalem, he had attracted a manner of followers and students. Of course, students that had been taught Paul's version of theology/Christology...
And considering there was no more Jerusalem Church to hold up a different 'version' of the events.. Well, you know how it goes.
>>1041681
>CE
>>1041699
I see.
What are your thoughts on N T Wright and the New Perspective on Paul?
>Taking the original "fuck off goyim this is our monothesitic cult" Semitic theology and making it accessible to illiterate snowniggers and speakchuckers by shoehorning pagan traditions with no basis in the original Semitic theology (even if said paganism contradicts original theology)
>But but but the JEWS are the assholes for keeping their religion pure! We only wanted to get rid of the parts where Jesus and his literal Jewish followers talk about Jewish things! (Because our later revisions, omissions and ghostwriting are contradicted by anyone with an understanding of contemporary early Jewish-Christian theology)
>Its not our fault none of our followers read Hebrew or Aramaic and we taught Greek and Latin to our priests instead! Or that our only understanding of the OT comes from revised copies of Hellenized fan fictions!
Giving Christianity to the Goyim was a mistake.
ITT: OP trying to shake the faith of believers
Get behind me Satan
>>1041727
Fuck off, LARPer
So OP, what constitutes "Real Christianity" then?
What is the "original message" if Paul wasn't in the gang?
>>1041713
Wright's argument for the historicity of Matt 27:51-53 ("Some stories are so odd that they may just have happened. This may be one of them, but in historical terms there is no way of finding out") has become a punchline among other scholars.
>>1041743
>"true Christianity"
No such thing.
The historical Jesus never claimed to be a part of God, or even to be a pre-existent eternal entity, for such a thing goes contrary to Jewish thought. The Trinity itself is an invention of a number of councils.
The historical Jesus was likely a reformer/apocalyptic preacher who preached reform (an end to the corruption and collaboration of the Priesthood) and that the Kingdom of Israel would soon be established by divine mandate. Very underwhelming compared to what Christcucks believe.
>>1041781
I don't believe you
>>1041628
THIS
>>1041781
Then explain the Old Testament prophecies regarding the coming messiah, which Jesus all fulfilled.
>>1041645
Read it again.
Take it seriously.
>>1041791
>a bishop who has a vested interest in proving his religion is the right one is a "good" source
>>1041743
From what we have of the fragments of the origenal Christianity was a more strict version of Judaism. All the old laws were in effect but not only were not allowed to do certain actions you also couldn't think them. New laws were also added such as an extreme commitment to non-violence, we are also told that you had to take a manditory vow of poverty. No old laws were removed.
Jesus's "kingdom" was not something that was supposed to be a magical floating castle that would descend from the sky but a state of a mind like Nirvana. It's outright recorded that James and his followers didn't beleive in the eternity of the soul (that's Platonic Paganism).
Also Jesus wasn't divine, he was a prophet.
The real Christians were basically the Jewish version of a Tibetan Monk.
>>1041643
>But annon the people that dated these are other Christians.
No, they were not. They were people who did not believe Jesus could prophesy that the Temple would be destroyed with no stone atop another, which happened in 70. So they started dating in 70.
Read "Early Dating For The Gospels".
>>>1041605 (You)
>Erman was a devote Protestant until he actually studied the bible. It's not uncommon for Christians to take classes that teach bible history and emerge as having less faith.
Never. A fedora through and through. He never had any faith in God; he just wants to get rich selling books to fedoras. Mission accomplished.
>>>1041611
>It gives them the moral high-ground. They get to roleplay being Jeebus and fighting evil Jews and Demons.
It's very real. Very, very, very real.
>>1041794
What prophecies? None were fulfilled.
The only ones who ever fell for the "he fulfilled OT prophecies" were the Gentiles who had zero familiarity with the Old Testament - why do you think the Jews never converted? Even without being Jewish, one just has to look at these "prophecies" and realize they are taken out of context, are not intended to be prophecies, or appear extremely convoluted and vague, similar to how horoscopes are written extremely vaguely so as to apply to a number of situations.
>>1041806
>Read "Early Dating For The Gospels".
I typed this into Google and only got links to evangelical websites. Silly me for expecting scholarly sources
>>1041650
Daily Reminder that Mark was written @ 45 AD.
Daily Reminder all the gospels were finished @ 68 AD.
Daily Reminder that Jews hate Jesus.
Daily Reminder the Ebionites are heretics.
Sect of Judæo-Christians of the second to the fourth century. They believed in the Messianic character of Jesus,
but denied his divinity and supernatural origin;
HERETICS
observed all the Jewish rites, such as
>JEWS
circumcision and the seventh-day Sabbath; and used a gospel according to Matthew written in Hebrew or Aramaic, while rejecting the writings of Paul as those of an apostate (Irenæus, "Adversus Hæreses," i. 262; Origen, "Contra Celsum," ii. 1; Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iii. 27; Hippolytus, "Refutatio Hæresium," vii. 34; Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah, i. 3, 12; on Matt. xii. 13).
>>1041805
>It's outright recorded that James and his followers didn't beleive in the eternity of the soul
Do you have a source for this claim? Genuinely curious
>>1041665
Stick to Christians and Christian sources then. Start with Ravi Zacharias, and cleanse your mind of the filth OP started here.
>>1041817
Arn't half the "prophecies" actually from a book of poems talking about dead Jewish kings?
The biblical prophecies are basically the equivelent of Paul-is-dead.
>>1041699
>I get your implication, but even if Paul died before the destruction of Jerusalem,
WHICH IS THE FUCKING LIE YOU TOLD
>>1041829
>Daily Reminder that Mark was written @ 45 AD.
>Daily Reminder all the gospels were finished @ 68 AD.
A source, anon. Provide one.
>>1041713
YOU JUST CAUGHT HIM IN A FUCKING LIE.
>>1041817
There's this code in Genesis:
Adam means Man
Seth means Appointed
Enosh means Mortal
Kenan means Sorrow;
Mahalalel means The Blessed God
Jared means Shall come down
Enoch means Teaching
Methuselah means His death shall bring
Lamech means The Despairing
Noah means Rest, or comfort.
Man appointed mortal sorrow, the blessed God shall come down teaching His death shall bring the despairing comfort.
Sounds like Jesus Christ to me.
And then there's all the prophecies in the Book of Isaiah,
very fucking detailed prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
>>1041739
NO YOU FUCK OFF, HELLSPAWN.
>>1041643
Nope, Erman doesn't believe in God because of the philosophical problem of pain
>>1041781
>The historical Jesus never claimed to be a part of God, or even to be a pre-existent eternal entity
John 8
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
FUCKING LIAR
help i'm scared that what OP is saying is true
>>1041781
>The Trinity itself is an invention of a number of councils.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
FUCKING LIAR
>>1041781
>Very underwhelming compared to what Christcucks believe.
John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
FUCKING LIAR
https://studentsdefendingchristianity.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/misquoting-jesus-debunking-bart-ehrman/
>>1041856
He's lying.
>>1041781
So, no "forgiveness is through Jesus" and all that, huh. And I'd have to chop my dick and not eat pork?
>>1041802
>Bart Erman is an atheist and discredited scholar and the people in the thread spouting bullshit are all just blindly following his teachings
NO, THIS, FUCKWAD
OP you smell like a Talmudic Jew.
You Rabbinical Zionist kike.
You killed your Messiah, deal with it.
>>1041794
>Old Testament prophecies
Pure Eisegesis and confirmation bias
To Jews, Jesus was a reformer, not a messiah. At the very minimum, he qualified as a prophet.
Only christcucks with their pagan revisions and convenient late commentaries can look at their version of the OT and put their own ideas over the words and actual followers of Jesus.
>>1041829
>Daily Reminder the Ebionites are heretics.
Wait a minute are you calling James the Just, a heretic?
James was with Jesus all his life, from birth to death. No other human being except maybe his mother would have known more about him. Why would he lye about this? And if he was lying why did Peter back him up and consider him Jesus's successor?
If James thought Jesus wasn't divine to be divine it's probably true. Your hatred of Jews has made you call the very earliest and closest followers of Jesus heretics.
>>1041831
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
>>1041817
Born in the Tribe of Judah.
Born in the House of David.
Born in Bethlehem.
Born of a virgin.
That literally narrows it down to ONE PERSON.
>>1041817
>why do you think the Jews never converted?
WHO DO YOU THINK ALL THE EARLY CHRISTIANS WERE, JEW?
>>1041874
You smell like an idiot Christcuck.
You ignorant fuck.
You destroyed precious historical records just because "muh heresy!"
>>1041824
Yes, read Christian books about Christianity.
>>1041880
Not to mention:
>He would be betrayed by 30 pieces of silver
in the book of Zechariah
>>1041856
IT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT, AND SO IS YOUR FEAR.
IT'S JEWISH GARBAGE.
>>1041889
YOU KILLED YOUR MESSIAH
Yahweh abandoned you in 70 AD, golem.
>>1041896
>what is interpolation
Stupid Christcuck poster.
>>1041873
NOT SURPRISING YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE BIBLE IS.
NOT SURPRISING AT ALL.
>>1041886
Well the early Christians that were Jews were part of the Ebionetes, which never thought Jesus was divine. They read Hebrew and knew their scriputres didn't say Jesus was a God.
The one's that thought Jesus was a God were the Goyim who at best read poorly translated Greek copies and added in their own Hellenistic ideas.
>>1041874
He can't deal with it. He's been driven insane. He knows God blinded him, and he can't turn to Jesus because he's in the Synagogue of Satan.
>>1041875
Hundreds. Literally hundreds of messianic prophecies all fulfilled by Jesus.
The top 70 of which, if you want to say they were done at random, clock in at 1 in 10^258 against.
THAT'S FUCKING INFINITY.
>>1041902
YOU ARE BROWSING A HISTORY BOARD WHEN IT WAS YOU WHO DESTROYED PRECIOUS HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS
You're a disgrace, idiot born of idiots.
>>1041902
>Screaming about Jews on the internet
Yeah those mean Jews oppressed Jesus! =-(
>>1041919
Abandoned
By
Jehovah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-j_1e13qlE
>>1041908
Ebionites = the remains of the followers of James, who had actually been a friend of Jesus
Christians = followers of Paul, a man who never met Jesus and wasn't even versed in basic Jewish theology.
>>1041902
>Yahweh
does this video trigger you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
This isn't some fringe conspiracy theory either - if you attend a Bible history lecture at any university that isn't Biola or Liberty this is what they will be teaching
>>1041889
NO TEMPLE
NO HIGH PRIEST
NO FESTIVALS
NO ANIMAL SACRIFICE
NO PASSOVER
NO GOD
STILL CALLS HIMSELF A JEW
>>1041896
A sum no Jew would bargain for, as it is a cursed amount; it is the amount you would have to pay a man if your ox killed his slave.
And that money went to buy a potter's field, just as the prophet said.
Jews today do not believe Moses, and they do not believe the prophets.
>>1041930
Fuck your kike blood god.
I care more about the fact that so many documents concerning not just the Ebionites, but the Bogomils, Paulicians, Carpocratians, Cathars/Bonhommes, Lollards, and even more concerning Classical philosophy have been lost because your pedophile Church just had to cover all its bases and erase anything that could have been viewed as contrary to their precious religion. And to boot: it's not as though they did it for piety, but more to maintain their own authority and power.
Disgusting.
>>1041908
The fucking Ebnionetes were a fucking cult, not a bunch of Christians. They were fucking Jews.
>>1041918
He's a godless heretic who plies idiots like you with information that you cannot handle.
OMG 400,000 MOVABLE NUS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ALONE! THAT'S A LOT OF ERRORS!
My sources are CHRISTIANS, which you have already DISMISSED because you are a JEW.
>>1041932
>Ebionites
Fucking heretics and Jews. No wonder they loved Jesus' asshole half-brother. Just like you, they don't understand jack shit about James.
It's not that hard fucknut.
Christians know Jesus is God.
These Ebionites say Jesus is not God.
So they are not fucking Christians.
>>1041953
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-j_1e13qlE
Hold on, now I know what angle you're coming from.
The Catholic church persecuted the majority of those groups.
You should be attacking the Papists, not Bible-believing Christians.
>complains about Paul
>lists Paulicians as victims
>Paulicians
>PAULicians
All of those people were scripture-believers you retard.
>>1041954
>They were fucking Jews.
What do you think Jesus was you tard? What do you think his brother, the leader of th Ebioneetes was? What do you think every person Jesus interacted was?
Christianity was a Jewish religion until dumb-ass gentiles like Paul added in a bunch of Pagan and Hellenistic bullshit.
>>1041953
THEN AIM YOUR FUCKING RAGE AT THE FUCKING PAPISTS YOU COMPLETE AND UTTER TOOL.
>>1041954
First, you persecute those who arguably believed that which was the closest to the actual teachings of Jesus. Having destroyed their holy books and killed/scattered them, you proceed to tarnish their reputation and call them cultists and heretics, even after 2000 years.
Man, am I glad Cucktianity is dying in the West.
>>1041976
>What do you think Jesus was you tard? What do you think his brother, the leader of th Ebioneetes was? What do you think every person Jesus interacted was?
IF THEY KNEW JESUS IS GOD, THEY'RE FUCKING CHRISTIANS YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
Holy shit the lack of any sources in this thread is ridiculous to the point of absurdity. Mentioning the names of controversial scholars and linking to wikipedia articles does not count as sources folks. So how about someone provides some?
>>1041980
JESUS IS GOD.
EBIONITES: JESUS IS NOT GOD.
THEY HAVE NO PART WITH ME, YOU FUCKING FOOL.
>>1041976
Paul didn't do that.
Paul's message is pure.
Constantine did, when he """"converted"""" the Roman empire to Christianity. This had as a consequence the mixing of pagan traditions into Chrsitianity in order to attract the masses. Alot of compromising and paganization. That was the birth of Roman Catholicism.
>>1041984
FEDORAS
NOT EVEN ONCE
>>1041964
Ehrman and his contemporaries are held accountable to peer review and can lose their jobs if they try to fiddle the facts.
While you haven't listed who they are, I am willing to bet that your Christian sources have to swear oaths at their Christian """"universities""" that they will not undermine the Bible. Ideological bias is not only encouraged, it is literally part of the job description.
>>1041980
You do know the "Falling Away" has been predicted right?
The Bible says that in the end times, people will stop believing and the hearts will grow cold.
>>1041986
The beautiful thing about you keeping your head about you is to show these people that they also do not believe calm, kind, gentle Christians either.
They just strawman that they would.
I apologize if my posting offended you. It was done intentionally, and my rage is quite real.
Face it goyim, you betrayed Jesus by building a religion around pagan revisionist blasphemy. just as Jesus was betrayed by his own Jewish kin.
also:
>Jews say Messiah hasn't come yet and is a metaphor for something spiritually profound
>Christcucks say Messiah came and left and will come back...eventually...
>Christcucks mad Jews weren't dumb enough to give up a strong theology for some meme prophecy
>Neither religion is actually wrong because Messiah has not come back in either case
>>1041989
You're a fool. The Catholics threw people like me to the lions, and you can't tell the difference, and blame both for the sins of the Catholics.
>who had actually spoken with Jesus
>>1041991
No they don't. He just writes books. His contemporaries are Dan Brown. Bruce Metzger gave him cover for a minute, but deeply regrets that now.
Liberal scholars.
Chrstians.
Pick one.
>>1041997
The Jews betrayed Jesus to the Romans; Jesus was not seditious. And their trial of Jesus violated dozens of their own rules.
>>1041997
>pagan revisionist blasphemy.
Jesus rose from the dead.
>>1042001
>The Catholics threw people like me to the lions
Uhhh, Pagan Rome did.
Catholic Rome burned Christians to the stake.
Later they founded the inquisition to torture heretics (anyone who doesn't suck the pope's dick or bow to Mary statues).
The Papacy held alot of control during middle ages, barking out orders to kings and lords. It was more interested in power & politics than upholding truth.
>>1041936
Don't Christians get bothered by the fact that the OT is basically a giant copy-paste job full of myths and with multiple deities rather than one?
>>1042009
>No they don't. He just writes books. His contemporaries are Dan Brown
So you're going to just piss all over the field of Biblical scholarship because you don't like its findings?
Have a look at history: christians were persecuted in Rome, but strangely enough it was alleged "devil" worshippers the ones persecuted in witch hunts and so on, and in the modern age we have "insane" people.
I'm sure you have noticed now that jesus is the antichrist and you shouldn't trust the bible a single bit, and you should hate your enemies, as most people in the world are actually devils, why love them? why be humble? why serve them? are you retarded?
And who told you that sex is bad if not the guy that wants to ruin mankind, the devil? Didn't GOD place lust for anal sex and a prostate in your butt? And then place a desire for it in there? Well? Isn't it HIS will then?
And notice how the faggots that pretend to be devil worshippers in here will take good care to defend that piece of shit jesus. Don't they claim to be wizards and pagans and shit? What fellowship would they have with jesus? And in a place with cp occasionally of all websites.
>>1041992
The one thing even these people can agree upon is that there is a rising tide of lawlessness in the world. It is that rising tide of lawlessness that causes love to grow cold.
>>1042002
Yes, many did, and billions more do in prayer.
When we say Jesus is alive, it's code for "Jesus is alive".
>>1042022
[citation needed] you baiting motherfucker
How is OT a copy-paste job?
>>1042020
They want to tie themselves to the Rome of Peter, they get all the baggage that comes with it.
I do not consider pagan Rome ever changing.
>>1042013
The idea of Pilate giving a shit about a few angry makes no sense.
Pilate was the overseer of the entire providense. He could literally command troops if he wanted. He could tax anyone at any rate he wanted.
And you want us to beleive he was being controlled by the very people he had the power to tax, kill, or jail? John gives no reason why such an absurd thing would happen.
Add in the confusion that supposedly Jesus was charged with blashemy, and the punishment for that is stoning, not crufixation!
John's Gospel is totally unreliable as a source. John freely admits that the trials were private so there is no way John could be a witness. Add in the fact that the Gospel is dated to more than 60 years after the event and is completly anonymous.
Jesus's death would have been because the Romans wanted it. If a man is going around knocking shit over at temples and calling himself a "king" he gets BTFO.
>>1042022
You can carve a coconut and call it your god. It will be your god. Your god will be a false god, of no help to you, and not the creator of the universe. But it will still be your god.
There is only one true God.
Yes. I am going to piss all over liberal scholars whose main goal in life is to increase doubt and skepticism by exaggerating things like 400,000 movable nus in the NT must mean there are 400,000 errors in the NT, and it is therefore unreliable.
No honest person would come to that conclusion; only a liberal bible scholar.
I need NO MAN to tell me what the bible says, what it means, and what is going to happen pursuant to its pages; I have what every other Christian has had throughout the ages.
The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God.
This logical fallacy that the Bart Ehrman's of the world must know more is just an appeal to authority that is sadly false in this case, particularly.
>>1041873
Hate might be too strong a word.
They accepted him like one would a retarded brother.
>>1042045
Gee, if only the bible spoke to that.
John 19
From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, “If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar’s friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar.”
So a bunch of Jew rulers threatened to go to Caesar and rat out Pilate as a traitor.
Yes, Pilate would move on that basis. Yes indeed. He was a hard man; he was not going to be humiliated in his post, removed from his post, or potentially executed.
The trials were not private to the Holy Spirit of God; they were not private to Jesus, and they were not private to Nicodemus, or Joseph.
They were illegal trials done by scared little men who would rather Jesus die for His beliefs than they die for theirs.
In fact, I bet they broke every single rule on trials that they had.
For you to say nobody knows anything about these trials, WHEN THEY WERE DONE AT NIGHT TO PREVENT ANYONE FROM KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THESE TRIALS, is again INFURIATING.
>>1042054
2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
FUCKING LIAR
>>1042045
The Jews threatened to riot and tell Caesar.
Pilate could
>Do nothing and lose his carreer or even life
or
>Kill this one guy who is causing trouble to satiate the bloodlust of the natives
>Only Christians (and the proper type of Christian!) are allowed to make revisions of established doctrine and ritual based on circumstance and schisms! Jews aren't real Jews unless they did exactly to the letter what 4,000 year old Semitic tribes did during the bronze age! Don't you DARE hold our hodgepodge Christian theology accountable for the hundreds of years of Papal corruption, wars, persecutions, schisms, contradictions, heresies, etc...
>If a "Christian" reworks the OT to fit a constantly evolving NT narrative through eisegesis - DEUS VULT!
>If a Jew sticks to the OT in its original Aramaic/Hebrew and older, established commentary - SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN! BLASPHEMY! CHRIST KILLER!
Its like this thread is a time machine back to the Middle Ages or something
>>1042069
2 Peter is a known forgery dude
The atheists in this thread need to provide evidence for a few pretty heavy claims that they've made, which are:
>that the all of the four canonical Gospels were written after 70AD
>That the Apostles based in Jerusalem such as James the Just hated Paul and viewed him as a heretic
>That Paul was alive after 70AD and used the fall of Jerusalem to spread his own cult
>That the MAJORITY of Christians in Judea were actually Jews who didn't believe in the divinity of Christ
>That the Ebionites represent the most Orthodox version of Christianity and that they were wiped out by the followers of Paul
If these things cannot be proven then I will not take any of your arguments seriously, and linking youtube videos by atheist channels, name dropping controversial atheist scholars and claiming that every scholar in the world, including Christians, agree with you, does not count as evidence.
>>1042093
>bronze age
Spotted the evolutionist.
Post discarded.
>>1042067
>>1042071
You seriously think any random citizen can just march all the way to Cesar and tell him to fire a prefict?
This is the equivalent of a peasant walking up to a king and saying the king needs to kill their Duke. Why the fuck is he gonna listen to a bunch of peasants, much less Jewish peasents?
>>1042094
Prove it.
>>1042103
Urine idiot.
>>1042103
>Jewish peasents
Fool.
>>1042103
>an entire province rioting
>not a big deal
Governors are tasked with keeping order in their part of the Roman empire.
Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent, but he executed him in order to keep the calm.
>>1042069
Let's put this in a modern context.
You are a Christian. Ted Cruz claims to be Christian but violates every damn principle Jesus taught.
It's easier to say he's not, but he fucking insists. What do you do then?
You have to accept him like a retarded sibling. You don' like the retarded little fuck, but you have to acknowledge he's one of you, so you have to imply your sharp dislike of him.
That's what being done in that verse you quoted.
>>1042101
There's been several wikipedia articles mentioned and the names of the most importaint Christian bible scholars mentioned.
In contrast there has been zero evidense, of any kind no matter how weak given for alternative dates.
>>1042118
How does Ted Cruz violate every principal Jesus taught?
>>1042116
Jesus was preaching a backwater shithole. The idea of them being able to organize any large scale riot isn't beleivable.
>>1042118
Unlike you, I know how to test Christians. It's a very difficult and complicated test. It consists mainly of one question:
"How did you become a Christian?"
Peter literally wrote that Paul is his beloved brother, and writes about things that make the fisherman's head swim. That's it. No retardation on either side. And that's AFTER Paul had to dress down Peter in front of everyone for pretending to be kosher with the Jews when they came into town.
Except yours, of course.
>>1042101
I don't know about the other stuff but
>>that the all of the four canonical Gospels were written after 70AD
is the consensus by scholars in the field. And it is pretty generous to boot.
>>1042143
Is that why Rome was forced to act when the Jews revolted in 70 AD?
Retard.
>>1042120
wiki is not a biblically reliable source.
Bart Ehrman is a discredited atheist.
There are no reliable sources for the notion that Paul made Christianity up out of whole cloth.
The bible answers all of these questions, and more, to anyone who wants to read them.
Your logical fallacy, your appeal to authority, is nauseating when you deny the authority of the Word of God, and of God Himself.
Why was killing Christ a bad thing?
>Core tenant of your faith being the death and resurrection of God's son
An actual Jewish joke: Whats Christianity without Jesus dying on the cross? Reform Judaism.
>One thousand years of violent rage towards Jews for having done to Jesus literally the same thing you are now doing against heretics and blasphemers
The murder of thousands of Protestant/Catholic/Pagans in the name of Christ seems to heavily outweigh the sins of a few Jews sending "Gods Son" back to his daddy via a Roman proxy. Or is the unforgivable sin their refusal to submit to your nationless pagan abomination of a religion?
>>1042155
>Peter literally wrote that Paul is his beloved brother
Provide a source that isn't from 2 Peter, a known forgery.
>>1042143
The entire city of Jerusalem turned out a week prior yelling:
Matthew 21:9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: “Hosanna to the Son of David! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ Hosanna in the highest!”
>>1041349
>Cultural Catholic
Fuck off faggot
>>1042159
>comparing a tiny town in the middle being of nowhere to a full scale riot
Compare more apples to oranges.
Besides it's clear that Jesus is pissing off Rome as well. His old leader John the Baptist was taken in as a criminal, when Jesus hears this he flees the area himself. When Pilate intergates him he charges Jesus with claiming to be a king.
>>1042158
It is not, actually. It is a lie based on the false notion that Jesus could not tell the future; that His prophecy about the destruction of the Temple just couldn't have been made in 32 AD, written of in 45 AD, and accomplished in 70 AD.
It's literally the skepticism of the godless who believe the gospels must be late.
>>1042183
Jesus is king over the universe.
He created Pilate in his mother's womb.
So yeah, Jesus is correct when He says He is king.
>>1042163
Nobody killed Jesus. He came to die.
Making His death count for nothing for you is a bad thing. It is Unbelief. It is the unparsonable sin.
The only unpardonable sin, and the only sin that remains unpunished.
>>1042165
Your claim is that 2 Peter is a known forgery.
Prove it.
>>1042184
It's based off the type of political and theological disputes they are in. The fact that the Gospels spend so much time talking about the Pharisee and their disputes shows it had to be after temple destruction.
Pre 70CE the dominate Jewish group were the Saudecee, if you were going to challenge the Jews you would mention them. After the temple was destroyed Saudecees were completly gone leaving the Pharisee as the new theology people would be disputing.
If the documents were pre 70CE we would expect Jesus to be talking to the Saudecee all the time.
>>1042165
The epistle opens with the name “Simon Peter” as the author (1:1), it mentions the immanency of his death foretold by the Lord (1:14), and the author claims to have been an eyewitness to the Transfiguration (1:16–18).
Genuine.
>>1042190
>tfw imagining a computer programmer turning into bits of 010101 data to interact with his creation
>or a human turning into a fish to interact with his fish in the aquarium
That's what God did.
>>1042200
Nobody believes they were written after the Temple destruction because they didn't mention the Temple being destroyed.
Try again, faggot. Harder this time.
>>1042208
https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0039/0039_01.asp
>>1042120
Irenaeus of Lyons in the 2nd century said that Mark was an interpreter of Peter (not Paul) and it was from Peter's eye-witness accounts that Mark based his Gospel on. Peter probably died in 65AD (as did Paul by the way, so he did not live to see the destruction of Jerusalem). So first of all, if you're all saying that the Gospels are written through the lens of Paul's teachings then this explanation contradicts you, because actually the first Gospel is based off of what Peter had to say, and you all say that Peter hated Paul.
Furthermore, the reason scholars date Mark no earlier than 70AD is because of Mark 13: "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus "not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." This clearly predicts the destruction of the temple and therefore atheist scholars say that Mark had to have known about it and then added in the prophecy to make Jesus look legitimate. But that doesn't mean anything when the opposing argument is that Jesus is the Messiah and can make prophesies. The truth is that the Gospel of Mark could not have been written too long after about 65AD and perhaps before then because Mark based it off of what Peter said and Peter died around 65AD.
>>1042208
God is also hyper-dimensional, and we as 3D beings cannot properly conceive of how His extra dimensionality causes Him to be as He is.
We're like Flatlanders being told that line is really a cube.
>>1042051
>You can carve a coconut and call it your god. It will be your god. Your god will be a false god, of no help to you, and not the creator of the universe. But it will still be your god.
>There is only one true God.
>Yes. I am going to piss all over liberal scholars whose main goal in life is to increase doubt and skepticism by exaggerating things like 400,000 movable nus in the NT must mean there are 400,000 errors in the NT, and it is therefore unreliable.
>No honest person would come to that conclusion; only a liberal bible scholar.
>I need NO MAN to tell me what the bible says, what it means, and what is going to happen pursuant to its pages; I have what every other Christian has had throughout the ages.
>The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God.
>This logical fallacy that the Bart Ehrman's of the world must know more is just an appeal to authority that is sadly false in this case, particularly.
Do you ever get tired of making up a bunch of random bullshit and pretending you know what christians believe?
>>1042217
I am a Christian, and I know what I believe.
Bart Ehrman would be wise to consider it loss to gain the entire world, and yet lose his very soul.
So would you.
>>1042217
1. People literally carve idols and call them gods. If you do not know about this, kill yourself.
2. Liberal critics of the bible are not Christians. Christians know the bible to be the Word of God. If you do not know this, kill yourself.
3. No man will ever get between me and my God. If you have a man between you and God, kill yourself.
4. I have the Holy Spirit living in me. If you do not, you are already dead.
5. The appeal to authority is a real logical fallacy. If you do not know that, kill yourself.
I think you get the hint.
>>1042216
The Flatland analogy is really genius.
Imagine us trying to interact with a 2D cartoon stick men on a piece of paper. They only perceive in 2D.
If I stick my finger through that 2D paper, they would see my finger as a circle.
If I stick 3 fingers through that world, they see 3 giant circles.
Then one 2D guy starts the church of the 1-circles and the other guy starts the church of the 3-circles.
But neither of them have any idea of what I really am.
That's the story of Christianity right there.
>>1042215
>Irenaeus of Lyons in the 2nd century
Read that over again. Iraenius is not a reliable source of 1st century information nor a reliable source about people he never met.
> Most modern scholars reject the tradition which ascribes it to Mark the Apostle, the companion of Peter, and regard it as the work of an unknown author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative
In other words Mark is a collection of many different writings with no way to tell who the author of the various bits and pieces of it were.
>>1036751
OP IS A JEWISH FAGGOT WHO WISHES HE COULD LITERALLY SUCK PAUL'S DICK.
>>1042224
>Bart Ehrman would be wise to consider it loss to gain the entire world, and yet lose his very soul.
>So would you.
You're literally one of the dumbest people I've encountered on the internet, I'll find wisdom elswhere.
>>1042200
This is your claim:
The writer of Mark wanted to challenge Jews rather than actually record what happened, and since after the temple's destruction Pharisees were the dominant sect he chose to make them Jesus's chief enemy
Well, our claim is that Mark is not trying to challenge the Jews, rather, he's trying to record what actually happened. What happened afterwards has nothing to do with it.
