So /g/ do you really think programming is hard or something?
>>55619665
It's not hard. It's tedious.
>>55619665
>I didn't want the whole screen
>>55619665
>using two table tags
>uses styles declarations right above the fucking code but still uses reduntant repetitive classes in the actual code
>no meta declarations
>retarded attribute styling
>retarded extra unclosed table tag
what a fucking moron. zero fucking attention, she'll probably just end up sticking weenies up her but for nickels
>do code
>HTML
>Code
Choose one.
>>55619665
>Not procedurally generating the table into a wrapper div
>>55619665
programing its a craft, everybody can do it, but do it something functional, secure, smart and beauty its hard.
>>55620217
Programming can also be considered as intellectual discipline or art.
I know that Stallman says it's a craft, but there's more and he also said that to encourage people to contribute to free software and not be afraid of doing so.
>>55620258
I'm agree with you, i don't understand people who tries to mistify it, its like music, everybody can play music in a basic way, everybody should know how to write code.
>>55620310
>everybody can play music in a basic way
?
The head tags are missing.
>>55619665
HTML+CSS is a fully complete programming language.
>>55620359
bait
>>55620474
no! It's already turing complete & shit and will soon be even more applicable to regular programming tasks
>>55620507
Nice b8.
>>55619779
>two <table>
>one </table>
I am sufficiently triggered.
I don't get where this "who says girl's cannot code" shit came from. I have been a software developer for years and I have never heard anyone of my colleagues go "girls cannot girl". It's a false barrier these woman act like they are overcoming, no one ever stopped them from coding to begin with.
>>55620713
B-but only 49% of programmers are girls!
>>55620648
Not him but HTML5 is turing complete when you include CSS. As usual, that does not mean that it's a good idea to use it for an entire OS, not looking at anyone in particular and certainly nothing to do with the picture.
>>55619665
Daniel's comment is pretty stalkerish
>>55620713
This. I have never ever seen anyone complaining or being rude to girls in the field.
But fucking feminist are trying to create this myth of 'hostile environment in tech' just to get high positions without any skills.
>>55620746
it's JS-based though
Like every other OS 10 years from now
Hail node.js!
>>55619779
You clearly know your HTML
>>55619732
This tbqh
Though it depends on the language. C++ is the most tedious shit on the planet if you want to do anything past fizzbuzz. Shit like Java and C# is less so due to garbage collection and other such features.
>>55620713
>I don't get where this "who says girl's cannot code" shit came from.
Some people just imagine that they're being oppressed.
>>55620779
Node is pretty dece.
Though Node itself is written in C++
>>55620713
>It's a false barrier these woman act like they are overcoming
Going back five years I had a 37 year old gf. I can't remember her full title now but she was some lead developer on some database thing. We went to a party where we met a friend of a friend of hers. I had met him earlier that night and asked him what he worked as and he had given me a detailed explanation, some basic web design bs. My gf asked him later on and he answered "Oh yeah, I work with computers." in what was possibly the most condescending tone possible. No matter how hard she pressed, that was the only answer he gave.
I don't know how prevalent that attitude is because I don't work in tech but I do know how infuriating it is. I work in a field dominated by women and it was mildly irritating that everyone assumed I was the hired muscle when I started four years ago. At this point it inspires nothing but loathing in me because I've heard the same bullshit over and over again. The jokes aren't original, they're not funny and they're not witty. Having to jump through hoops for every single customer to show that I'm just as capable as a woman gets real old real fast. Gender discrimination is a thing, it's annoying as fuck and everyone does it. Now watch /g/ accuse me of being a cuck or a SJW. I don't care about feminism, I just want it to stop being ground hog day with the same fucking jokes over and over.
>>55620713
They are trying to flood the market with women in order to decrease wages. That's all it is.
>>55620889
>programming wages are only low because the field isn't saturated
This is a myth.
Computer science is by far the most popular STEM major and has been for ages.
>>55620813
It's only "tedious" for stupid people.
Where are all the campaigns to get more girls interested in coal mining, crab fishing, or underwater welding?
>>55620918
Being autistic doesn't mean you're not also stupid.
>>55620918
Then I suppose we should all be thankful there's smart people like you around that are capable of dealing with the tedium of C++ and gracious enough to post about it here.
Thank you, smart person.
>>55620941
>>55620941
Programming is a job for little girls and you know it. Why do you think crossdressers are the best (male) programmers?
It's time to Kode with Karlie Kloss
>>55619665
It can require logical thinking different from, say, common sense. Not the best example but you get the gist. So, yes, I'd say it can be hard.
>>55620911
>implying wages aren't always "too high" from a company's perspective
They have everything to gain from increasing the labor pool. The easiest way to do this is to get women involved. Happened during the 60s as well.
>>55620883
So you and your gf met one asshole IT guy once in a blue moon and then you paint every guy in that field with the same brush?
>>55620973
>it's time to KKK
14/88
Code war now
>>55619665
"How do I snipping tool?" the post
>>55620883
I hate to say it, but it probably had nothing to do with her sex. She probably just didn't "look" like she would have understood completely what it was he does. Sounds fucked up, I know. I tend to do the same thing with older people, kids, dudes and girls that look like they wouldn't know what I'm talking about.
"Oh...computer stuff" is what I tell 95% of strangers.
>>55620348
I'm barely able to read music, but I can still have fun with transcribing existing tunes in Famitracker and MuseScore.
>>55620960
Thank you for posting your opinion. I hope you'll be able to find a non-tedious programming language that's comfortable enough for you to work with.
>>55620883
From my experience, when I tell women what I do (sysadmin) they have no fucking clue 99 out of 100 times, it's just easier to tell women "I work with computers". And then the 1 out of 100 who knows who that is, she gets into this dick measuring contest with me about how her job is actually harder/better/pays more or some shit like that. It's just not worth the effort.
BTW, I convinced my female boss to hire a female junior sysadmin with no experience because she had good work ethic, I have no problem with women working in IT.
>>55619736
I'm a simple man.
I see Harold, I upvote.
>>55620997
By your logic, programmer salaries should have been decreasing the last 10 years. How do you explain that the opposite has happened, despite the labour pool having quadrupled in size.
>>55620883
>woman
>lead developer
We have a mad feminist cunt here, lads. Abandon thread.
>>55621135
Obviously the demand has outpaced the labor market, genius.
>>55621154
Thank you for proving my point, smart-ass.
Do you guys sincerely believe that the demand for programmers will decline or flatten in the future? Even your fucking sweater is a IoT device and demands firmware programming now.
>>55621135
Everyone's salaries increased, because of the inflation.
If you look at the purchasing power, the programmer salaries have actually dropped.
Not to mention they outsource the work to Pajeets now and 7 out of 10 western educated programmers are unemployed or involved in some startup/mobile app development shit for pennies.
>>55621188
>IoT
Jump off a pokecliff.
>>55621191
>If you look at the purchasing power, the programmer salaries have actually dropped.
Except programmers' starting salaries are still above median salaries for all workers in the entire western hemisphere.
Also,
>hurr durr outsourcing
Companies have been outsourcing tech jobs for at least 30 years and "insourcing" indians through visas for the last 15 years, yet programmer salaries are still increasing.
>>55620746
> Says HTML is Turing complete
> Doesn't explain why
>>55620359
Top kek
>>55621221
>Except programmers' starting salaries are still above median salaries for all workers in the entire western hemisphere.
This
When your field's STARTING salary is above median salary for EXPERIENCED workers in all fields, you should not be complaining.
>>55621221
>programmer salaries are still increasing.
Only if you're lucky enough to have an actual job. Most don't.
And after this years financial collapse 99% of programmers will be living in cardboard boxes.
You fucked up big, when you chose programming career instead of finance.
>>55621221
Thus why they are trying to increase the supply of labor by any legal means necessary. Jesus are you a shill or something? This is basic economics.
>>55621259
>Only if you're lucky enough to have an actual job. Most don't.
Uh, we're not talking about /g/ here, we're talking about real CS graduates.
>You fucked up big, when you chose programming career instead of finance.
lol, okay
If anything, finance is a field saturated by daddyboys who didn't know what to do with their lives after highschool. But suuuuuuuure, claim that any STEM field is saturated despite the fact that everyone does a degree in economy, business or a liberal art....
>>55621259
When there's a financial collapse, you really think most people working in finance will still able keep their jobs too?
>>55621278
I'm just saying that if you're afraid of losing your job to some 24 year old girl who did a two week intensive course in JavaScript hacking because she found out her degree in graphic design was useless, you're probably not a very good programmer in the first place and deserve to be fired.
>>55621232
>(elt (multiple-value-list (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time))) 5)
>not knowing html5+css3 is turing complete
still mighty inconvenient though
>>55621317
>you really think most people working in finance will still able keep their jobs too?
If you aren't dumb you will get rich. The more blood and suffering there is, the more money there is to get.
I'm making $1000 per month just sitting on my ass, because I was smart enough to put most of my savings into gold and silver last august, because I calculated the Asian markets meltdown and brexit happening.
Then I'm making yuge money off the volatility indexes, just by watching the news and buying at the right time.
The recent coup night in Turkey made me $800 and only because it was Friday night and markets were closing down for the weekend. If the faggots decided to rebel at Thursday the profits could easily hit over $5000.
>>55621387
>$1000 per month
You're not actually cashing it every month though, you're just sitting on a bunch of assets and praying to whatever deity or non-deity you adhere to that the value will increase.
>>55621341
And where in the documentation is any of that?
It's still not a programming language, it's a markup language.
>>55619665
>HTML
>>55621432
Rule 110 is Turing-complete
Ergo, any implementation of Rule 110 is Turing-complete
HTML5+CSS3 implementations of Rule 110 exist
Ergo, HTML5+CSS3 is Turing-complete
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=html5+css3+turing+completeness
Granted, it usually isn't used for programming though
>>55621424
Well, I cash cash it right now at any bank.
I'm not praying, i know it will hit $1800 this year for sure, then there is a fat chance of it hitting $2200 and in best case scenario the Wall Street lets Trump win to pull the plug and blame the market collapse on him. They are actively looking for a scapegoat, it will either be artificially killed Chinese market that will start the chain reaction or Trump.
In this best case scenario we are looking at astronomical values, because the paper gold market is 6 times larger than the amount of actual physical gold existing.
>>55621494
>i know it will hit $1800 this year for sure,
Uh, wait what?
So it's not actually increasing by $1000 in value every month, what you're trying to say is that it has increased by $1000 from when you invested until now?
How the fuck is that the same thing as "making $1000 every month"?
Also, it doesn't seem as a very profitable investment long term. Pic very much related.
>>55621494
>>55621551
Forgot pic.
>>55621551
I'm trying to say I bought lots of it at $1096 per ounce and put them in my bank safe.
After 10 months it's 19% higher than it was back then. So these 1.9% per month make approximately $1000
>>55621474
Oh shit, HTML and CSS can colour boxes that are clicked and boxes that are close to that one. Better start making an OS in it.
Guess what you could also do, call it a markup language like it is
>>55621636
>Granted, it usually isn't used for programming though
>still mighty inconvenient though
class=sansserif
it's not. the hard part is finding a use for it.
>>55621474
The last time I saw an implementation of rule 110 in html+CSS, it required user input for it to work in the first place.
>>55621660
Then what's the point of arguing about it being a programming language when it quite clearly fits the definition of a markup language?
>>55621697
Not the guy you're replying to, but do you even know what being Turing complete means?
>>55621626
I suspect you don't know how to calculate percentages if you believe an increase of 1.9% per month adds up to a total increase of 19% of the original amount....
>>55619732
If you like coding it's not tedious, and i get a thrill sometimes when i'm stuck or have problem like some puzzle complex.
>>55619665<table><table></table>
>all these people discussing wages
What happened to working with something you like?
No wonder /g/ is filled with shitposting, it's probably all people who picked up IT for the money while not truly liking it.
>>55621736
It's not tedious until you start doing it for a living.
>>55621722
Not that guy, but he's obviously talking about simple interest and not compound interest.
>>55621191
>7/10 western educated programmers are unemploy or in start ups
Complete bullshit.
Its one of the most in demand jobs in the world at the moment.
>>55621722
I'm just dividing the total gain by 10 months I'm holding it. The total profit would be $10336 as of today.
It's just easier to calculate per month, because if you invest into something and it takes too much time to get returns it's not a good investment. For instance if it would be $300 per month so far, I would've sold it and invested elsewhere for the time being.
>>55620359
>>55620507
>>55620746
Write an HTML/CSS program that prints out fizzbuzz for the numbers 1 to 100.
>>55620813
I use c# for making stuff in unity.
Before that I used Basic and VBasic.
I'm not a girl though.
>>55620889
>Women are purposely trying to decrease the very wage they would earn
This is a special kind of paranoia where you think people do stuff to fuck you over even if it hurts them.
>>55621191
If you don't really like this field.
You are not gonna last long, burn out are gonna hit fast and hard.
Also the trick is to change your job every few years.
From Application developer to web developer or writing database scripts etc.
>>55619665
Programming gives me an erection.
>>55621842
I wasn't aware that Google was entirely woman run.
ME DO CODE
>>55621795
>>55621769
>I'm just dividing the total gain by 10 months I'm holding it.
I see
>if you invest into something and it takes too much time to get returns it's not a good investment
How long is too much time? Considering that my current PhD student salary is $59,000 per year (before taxes), waiting 10 months for a profit of $10,336 doesn't seem like an obscene amount of money to me.
Of course, I understand that you simply invested and did nothing except sit on that, but you still have to spend an awful lot of time managing your (I assume) multiple different investments according to trends and news going on?
>>55621147
>The woman can't code thing is a myth
>A woman having a tech job is a mad feminist.
You are literally developmentally disabled.
>>55621191
>Staying in America
kek, Munich, Kuala lampur, Seoul pay better and have more job opportunity.
>made a table in html
>programming
>>55621816
easy, the language doesn't even has to be turing-complete.<!DOCTYPE html>
<html><body>
<style>body{counter-reset: item}
div{counter-increment: item}
div:not(:nth-of-type(5n)):before{content: counter(item) ""}
div:nth-of-type(3n):before{content: "Fizz"}
div:nth-of-type(5n):after{content: "Buzz"}</style>
<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>
</body></html>
>>55619665
>too stupid to know how to take a screenshot
You did prove that retards can program though I'm not sure that was your exact intent.
>daily rage reminder https://medium.com/@loorinm/coding-is-over-6d653abe8da8
>>55620713
>I don't get where this "who says girl's cannot code" shit came from.
Women claim that programming need women because it´s a generic office work, now that automatization destroyed a lot pink collar jobs (receptionists, secretaries, child care workers, nurses, nurses' aides )
>>55621781
I'd say he is correct. It's very difficult to get a programming job unless you have a master's or 250 years of experience. I don't even bother applying anymore. I'll just continue to make money with mobile apps I make myself.
>>55619665
>HTML/CSS
>Programming
Babbys first step.
Everyone can do that shit even granny with some effort.
>>55620113
HTML is code. It's not programming, but it's code.
>>55621862
>but you still have to spend an awful lot of time managing your (I assume) multiple different investments according to trends and news going on?
Not really a lot. Just read the news, trends, be informed. Anything around you is money. I started browsing /g/ in late March when I wanted to build a new pc. You guys hyping about the rx 480 made me buy some AMD stock and drop it right after the release, because I suspected AMD would shit itself and it did with the burning pcie slots. Made some cash out of it.
It's a living. The profit is literally as big as the changes in the world. 2016 is big, 2017 will be even bigger.
I won't say much, but I'm planning to buy a supercar by the next summer.
>>55621941
>I'd say he is correct
Statistics would say that you both are incorrect.
>It's very difficult to get a programming job unless you have a master's or 250 years of experience.
>I don't even bother applying anymore. I'll just continue to make money with mobile apps I make myself.
It's hard for you. It's not hard for non-autistic persons.
I was already working full-time as a C++ developer before I even finished my degree. Hell, I even got the company to finance my master's in exchange for me committing to work for them for at least a year afterwards.
>>55621941
Know lotsa guys who don't even have a real degree.
But that's in Europe, and you do have to know your shit.
>>55620713
You're right, anon, nobody is saying it. Just like nobody runs around reminding people how the sky is blue. They don't have to, because it's just true, and everyone with half a brain notices it's true. Which tells us how smart you are, since you haven't noticed.
>>55619665
In my uni class there was one dude that was the best at calculus and math in general but could barely comprehend shit like java. So it depends.
>>55621941
If you can make mobile apps on your own, I'm sure a lot of companies would be interested in hiring you, at the very least a junior.
Granted, if you're making a living from apps on your own, may as well stick to that.
>>55621977
>You guys hyping about the rx 480 made me buy some AMD stock and drop it right after the release, because I suspected AMD would shit itself and it did with the burning pcie slots. Made some cash out of it.
LOL
If you're getting your tech investment tips from /g/ you're bound to fuck yourself over
>>55620806
are you really that fuckin retard ?
>>55621980
Yeah that shit was pretty common back during the 90s when there was a surge of investment and not a lot of skilled programmers. It's way different now gramps.
>>55621221
>Except programmers' [or any STEM field] salaries are still above median salaries for all workers in the entire hemisphere.
Won't happen until the entire world is on the brink of collapse, and even then it won't happen until the absolute last second. You, the working poor are defending the current system using propaganda from the rich. In the last election cycle, the poor were defending giving more money to the rich by repeating stuff like "they're JOB CREATORS!", as if the rich are creating jobs out of charity and should therefore be worshiped.
We live in a world where people fought better health care because "the JOB CREATORS can't afford it!". The very idea of basic income is laughed at because we don't want our precious JOB CREATORS to pay more taxes. The poor would rather pay the tax themselves instead of making the wealthy pay it.
Nobody even realizes how deep the divide actually is. The amount of wealth that the people on top actually have is beyond comprehension for most people. Most of us live on budgets, some live paycheck to paycheck, some dream about home ownership but know it will probably never happen. The wealthiest people can purchase private jets and entire islands with the same consideration that we would have when buying a roll of toilet paper.
But to most people, that's the way it should be. They earned it, and we all deserve to starve. When we're all replaced by automation, we'll cry tears of joy because our job creators can reap more profits and pay lower taxes.
>>55622022
I'm graduated in 2014 you fucking imbecile.
>>55622003
You don't really have to know tech to invest, you only have to know how much people obsess over something.
You will laugh, but /new/ (currently /pol) got me into investment, I got a degree and made it a living.
They talked me into buying bitcoins when they were around 30 cents per 1.
Easiest $100 turned into hundreds of thousands I made.
>>55622032
Thank you for confirming my view that communists edgelords, like yourself, are only pretentious faggots that seek to defend their NEET lifestyles.
>>55621956
To people who don't know English, English is code.
>>55622049
Yeah that's bullshit and you know it. Stop pretending to be all cool and hip on an image board.
>>55622073
>I got lucky on a fluke and now I use a bunch of internet trolls as my financial advisors
>>55619732
first post, best post
>>55622104
>i'm too lazy to find a job
>it's the world's fault
You're a retard if you failed to get a job after college/uni.
>>55621889
Burn!
>>55622104
Did someone tell you life is easy or something?
You do nothing, you get nothing.
Maybe start making connections and getting the right skills can get you far bro.
Bitches stay bitches.
>>55622104
>failing at life
>blaming girls and brown people for your shortcomings
>getting angry random strangers on a forum for taiwanese tapestry
>>55621889
>TFW somebody shitposts with your CSS
Feels pretty good desu.
>>55622290
This is my css you fuck i posted this on here a few days ago and a different version a few years ago
>>55621011
You think it was an isolated incident? That was one of many, the anecdote was used as an example.
>>55621093
I omitted a lot of detail but the general gist is that gender played a large role and he said as much once she name dropped the company she worked for. Even then he assumed that she didn't do any actual programming.
>>55621127
>And then the 1 out of 100 who knows who that is, she gets into this dick measuring contest with me about how her job is actually harder/better/pays more or some shit like that
If they're used to people expecting them to be clueless about IT then they'll go in to any conversation about it on the offensive. That's one of the problems we can solve by being less assumptive. There'll be less thundering feminist bitches if they have less to bitch about.
>I convinced my female boss to hire a female junior sysadmin
Congratulations on not being a chauvinist?
>>55621941
That's just you. I don't have any formal training or degree, but I'm currently working as a software developer.
>>55622403
>You think it was an isolated incident? That was one of many, the anecdote was used as an example.
How would I know unless you give more details about the other cases? You expect people to just make conclusions based on one anecdote?
>>55622884
You're the one actively doubting his story unless he provides all the evidence in his entire case. Sounds to me like you have a very strong bias. Is the prospect that several men were condescending to a woman that hard to fathom? It's a reality. It doesn't imply that all men are like that, just that it's an established problem. Your defensiveness about it is just you being a shithead.
>>55622978
>It doesn't imply that all men are like that, just that it's an established problem
Thank you anon. I'd also like to point out that I also stated that it's a problem I run into in a female dominated profession. Men are not the only guilty party here, I have no difficulty imagining women as also being condescending to women doing a "mans job"
>>55622197
>>55623115
Yeah, I don't get how you're being labeled a SJW even though the great majority of your original post was about how it's a problem for a guy in a female-dominated environment. You can enver be accomodating enough for /pol/tards not to get triggered.
>>55619732
this desu senpai
>>55620674
Does that even work?
>>55623653
Depends on the browser. I remember there was a website that didn't close title tags IIRC, so for every new tag the font just kept getting bigger and bigger. Will work perfectly on IE8 and earlier or later with the compatibility mode. I need to find that website again.
>>55621093
I do this too, but when I meet someone who I think looks like they know about what I do, but they actually don't I go full autism because then I have to explain it all.
>>55622978
Fuck you, asshole. I wasn't doubting that specific story about his gf. I was just asking for more information. He just gave one example and came to general conclusion that most or all men in the profession are like that guy that his gf mention.
Is that the way people like you think? One story => conclusion about everyone? Even that anon admitted that he doesn't know how prevalent that attitude is.
>>55624095
>One story => conclusion about everyone?
At no point did anyone say that it goes for everyone. I'm the anon who posted that story and while I don't know how prevalent it is, I do know that it's prevalent enough to be infuriating.
>came to general conclusion that most or all men in the profession are like that guy that his gf mention.
Again, no one said that all men are like that. Later I even said that women are guilty of it too. My entire post was about how gender bias is a huge fucking thing that affects both genders and both genders do. But no! Anon assumes I'm a SJW feminazi and that I'm attacking men.
>>55624149
>I do know that it's prevalent enough to be infuriating.
And how do you know that?
>My entire post was about how gender bias is a huge fucking thing that affects both genders and both genders do.
You say you don't know how prevalent it is but, at the same time, you it's a huge thing. Don't you see how self-contradictory that is?
>But no! Anon assumes I'm a SJW feminazi and that I'm attacking men.
I never accused you of being anything.
I'm not saying gender bias doesn't exist, but you need to at least provide more information than just your personal experience and your gf's experience before saying it's a "huge fucking thing".
>>55624095
You literally said:
>So you and your gf met one asshole IT guy once in a blue moon and then you paint every guy in that field with the same brush?
>>55624252
>I never accused you of being anything.
>He just gave one example and came to general conclusion that most or all men in the profession are like that guy that his gf mention.
Alright anon.
>I'm not saying gender bias doesn't exist, but you need to at least provide more information than just your personal experience and your gf's experience before saying it's a "huge fucking thing".
So now the goalpost goes from the details about specific experiences to objective proof about discrimination in general? That can be easily found on wikipedia, or any other part of the interwebs for that matter. Unfortunately, these statistics will be one sided as they don't include the male narrative in female dominated jobs. This thread will die soon, so one of us will probably end up the last word but I will say this; if you're open to the topic then there's a lot more to it than both the SJW feminazis and the hyperconservative MRAs will admit. Both sides have some good points and some (or a lot, rather) horrible points but seem blissfully unaware that this is a problem for society at large, not just one small part of it.
