Someone please help me like systemd.
I want to like it because everything is starting to use it, I just don't see how to accept it.
I've been trying to educate myself a bit on the issue and controversy, but there's still one thing that I can't get over, and it's the claims that other packages and system components are starting to explicitly depend on systemd.
Now, if this was just an over exaggeration and nothing to really worry about, then why is it that there are so many distros which can't offer me a choice of init system anymore? Linux is all about choice and there's so many alternatives to everything in the repositories of every Linux distro (there's even a bunch of different options for bootloaders and entirely different/experimental filesystems), but suddenly this one thing is almost becoming a non-option anymore. Based on that fact alone it doesn't seem like an over exaggeration to me at all that everything about Linux systems is starting to derive dependency on systemd at one level or another. I don't understand why, and yes, it scares me. Why doesn't it scare you?
PLEASE NOTE: This concern is not about the mere fact of distros dropping support for alternatives, it's about what this fact tells me about how systemd might be coded and makes me wonder why it's gotten to the point where nothing else can play on the same playground as it.
Is this systemd's fault? If it's not their doing then I could probably accept systemd. If it's just the maintainers of _other_ packages that are being lazy and including systemd dependencies because it's easier or something then I could probably swallow systemd and be happy.
Or is there actually something about systemd itself that's making everything have to depend on it? Which Is the possibility I would find more difficult to understand and accept.
>>54059447
systemd was a good idea till pottering decide to usurpe every proccess.he even calls 'su' unneeded and made systemd-su
There are a few forks that dont use systemd,but they ARe shiitly maintaned. Your only real options is gentoo.It uses openrc,which you can use on other distros,but it will be unsupported,and a new upgrade,and fuck your life.
So get used to systemd,or use gentoo.Thats about it
>>54059447
Why would you give a flying fuck about what goes on in the kernel as long as your apps still work?
>>54059843
Its not the kernel.Its the OS,which systemd is becoming
>>54059853
I guess systemd is just outside of the kernel.
Still, why do you give a shit? It doesn't change anything. You still use the same software.
>>54059916
No,you dont use the same software.
You have to use the systemd version of it.And if there is a problem,and pottering dosent agree with it,welp there goes your entire conifiguration,and you cant get in to your system without a liveusb
This has happened countless times.He ask for bug fixes to revert HIS changes,asking the public for patches to revert the changes he did?
FUCKING ASININE.
You control the software,if you cannot keep git commits to revert your software,you should fuck off and die
It's shitty, there's not much to like. It's harder to use, more complicated for no benefit and isn't really faster at all. It does the job though and it's not impossible to use though. If I have a choice (which I do most of the time) I don't use it, if I have to then I do, it's not that much of a big deal although I do hate it with a passion.
>>54059952
So new versions of software aren't compatible with old systems? Oh no, that's only been true forever.
Just upgrade you retard. If systemd is good enough for RHEL, it's good enough for you.
>>54059447
GNU/Linux is right and truly fucked for the most part.
Slackware or BSD.
>>54060013
>Upgraded
You dont get the chose of what software you use,as systemd has a version of it,and you are FORCED to use SYSTEMD"s version.There will be versions and even bugfix's provided by the non-systemd software,but since pottering is slow on everything,or just dosent give enough fucks to patch it on system,because he is a retard.
>RHEL
They will go the path of least resistance,they use it because it is one packe that then have to maintain,instead of a few more that you orginalyl had in sysvinit
I really urge you to read up on what you are typing,so you look like less of a autist stallmanist
>>54060045
>Slackware
lol no thanks granddad.
Last time I looked slackware guy wasn't actually against systemd so it will probably make it in one day.
>>54059916
OP here. For my everyday activities it probably won't make a difference. Starting and stopping services would be a different command but still pretty much the same.
But I guess it's mostly because I like to install distributions that don't come with a lot of default software and a fresh install just drops you to command line where you have to install xorg and a window manager, etc..
So I'm used to picking a choosing the components that go into it, and when I see a massive debate about something like this and all the distros rapidly removing their alternative options which used to be available to me (even if it's not something I was ever concerned with before) I feel like I need to know why.
So I've been reading up about all this and I really just don't see it. I get that it's new, and I get that it has some benefits (which from what I can tell would only be noticeable to like 1% of Linux users) but what I also see is that not only is it causing distros to remove my choice of init system, it seems like every new article I click on it I'm reading about some new component of my system (again which I probably never cared about before) is also losing its alternatives to systemd, and again I just have to scratch my head and wonder why.
If there's a reason I should be ok with this then I'd like someone to let me know, which is the point of this thread.
Hey OP, did you ever complain that you only had one choice of device management - freedesktop's udev - and nothing else unless you wanted to use something as severely unsupported as hotplug or HAL?
Did you ever complain about there only being one dbus?
Did you ever complain about code bloat in those?
How about the *kits?
Gconf, dconf, xfconf?
Systemd hate exists because it's bloat that non-programming users have more of an opportunity to interact with. In reality, it's nothing special in linux land.
>>54060060
What about the hundred other tools and demons that make up the GNU userland of desktop Linux? Why aren't you bitching about the fact that you have to have them to install any Linux applications? Your argument doesn't make any sense. You used to have to have init or whatever there was before systemd to run anything, but now it's all of a sudden a huge deal that software depends on systemd, just like it used to depend on init.
>They will go the path of least resistance,they use it because it is one packe that then have to maintain,instead of a few more that you orginalyl had in sysvinit
If they're using it, it proves it's good enough for mission critical jobs where actual money is involved, so why isn't it good enough for your computer? RH helped develop systemd, they didn't just passively accept it because it's the "path of least resistance."
>>54060109
Why don't you just ask RedHat why they use systemd instead of a bunch of neckbeards on /g/.
Fuck off, Microsoft FUD.
ANTI-SYSTEMD = ANTI-GNU
ANTI-SYSTEMD = MICROSOFT PAID SHILL
REPORT (this is stale copypasta by microsoft)
DO NOT REPLY
>>54059447
>always looks like she's eating freshly pissed urinal cake.
>Based on that fact alone it doesn't seem like an over exaggeration to me at all that everything about Linux systems is starting to derive dependency on systemd at one level or another. I don't understand why, and yes, it scares me. Why doesn't it scare you?
Because I decided to get off the crazy train a long time ago. Distros used to be babby's first Linux, but the real power is in rolling your own.
Take off the training wheels, and learn true power. Or, you can keep them on while riding your little tricycle like a 3 year old.
Or just say "fuck it" and go FreeBSD.
>PLEASE NOTE: This concern is not about the mere fact of distros dropping support for alternatives, it's about what this fact tells me about how systemd might be coded and makes me wonder why it's gotten to the point where nothing else can play on the same playground as it.
Congrats, you're aware of the actual and true reason that systemd is considered slime by a vocal few. It's not the fact that the software is a half-assed design (it is), it's the fact that Poettering pissed on everyone else. But Poettering is a SJW and will, like all SJWs, emit a shrill scream at anyone that suggests he's a fucking egotistical asshole.
>Or is there actually something about systemd itself that's making everything have to depend on it? Which Is the possibility I would find more difficult to understand and accept.
The short version is, the Freedesktop.org tards decided to drink the kool-aid, and have basically had their brains sucked out with a straw. There are little bits and pieces of actual ideas still there but for the most part, critical thinking went out the window and was replaced with pure bag-o-dick, i.e. "we are FD.org, we are right, you are wrong, suck our mighty shit-stained cocks".
>>54060116
Well I mentioned here >>54060109
that no, a lot of that stuff I never cared about before. Read in there to see why I still have questions about systemd though.
Also remember, this thread isn't about actually losing options. This thread is asking _what is it about systemd_ that's making the alternatives disappear.
I'm looking for perhaps a technical answer. What's in systemd's code or what are the design choices that's making this happen? Why are things needing to depend on systemd that never needed to depend on sysv init or whatever?
>>54060135
There are actually people who bitch about dependencies on glib/bash/gcc/etc because the programmer used GNU's extensions, but they're not a controversy because they have a genuine point. It's normally general purpose software instead of OS plumbing that you need a whole new compiler and libc to compile and run, which your sysadmin might not allow.
A fucking init being linux only is no big deal, but more basic things pulling around bits of GNU, even fucking bash (hey, we have a standard, it's called sh), that's actually something that bothers real people in the real world doing real work
On a real production server, you do not install compilers and libcs that are not officially supported by the vendor. Period. If a program needs glib you need redhat or ubuntu. It's an unacceptable security/stability risk to have other ccs and libcs floating around.
>>54060178
>Fuck off, Microsoft FUD.
>ANTI-SYSTEMD = ANTI-GNU
Please show me where the GNU Project has endorsed systemd.
>ANTI-SYSTEMD = MICROSOFT PAID SHILL
A nice, but crappy, try at a redirect. There are anti-Microsoft people that are also anti-systemd.
>REPORT (this is stale copypasta by microsoft)
There's nothing to report, you are trolling because someone pissed in your Cherrios.
>DO NOT REPLY
Oh, I can reply all day, buttlicker.
>>54060163
Because they funded it?
Because it allows them to eventually sell a shit-ton of support contracts when the REAL bugs start crawling out of the framework?
>>54060135
>but now it's all of a sudden a huge deal that software depends on systemd, just like it used to depend on init.
This statement is so full of shit, I'm not even sure where to start.
Little to no software is dependent on "init". Let that sink in for a second.
You are confusing the init system, daemon management, and various bits and pieces of non-system-space. Systemd does a nice job of fusing them together, like Brundlefly, so that you have a nice seamless experience.
>>54060135
>other tools
Because systemd is forcing them by raping the system.Are you seriously this dense?
>userland
Soon you wont need a userland,because systemd will supply it for you,and fuck your shit up with evey upgrade,when pottering decides that feature you use,isnt needed anymore
Sysvinit had ONE FUCKING CONFIGURATION FILE IN /ETC
Now there are upwards of THREE CONFIGURATION FILES for any given tool.Oh this crashed,let me check journald,oh whats this,it didnt log anything or what daemon files it was using.Guess i better jut put my thinking pants and start looking for what is misconfigured(from systemd stock settings)
>money
Why would RHEL want a system that is ever evolving,that has multiple config files such as your host name,yout time,your locale.When with sysvinit,you had it in ONE ONE ONE ONE fucking file.
People got behind it in the beggining,which im not going to lie,it was really nice and was promising,then they started usurping the system part by part.If its been working for 30 fucking years,why change it for the sake of change? Pottering is just after an ego trip(look how pulseaudio turned out,enjoy that clusterfuck)
>>54060109
>it seems like every new article I click on it I'm reading about some new component of my system (again which I probably never cared about before) is also losing its alternatives to systemd, and again I just have to scratch my head and wonder why.
Remember that crappy movie, "Demolition Man"? Remember the Taco Bell scene? "Now all restaurants are Taco Bell!"
Now all inits are systemd.
Make sense now?
>>54060206
I don't see how there is any way of getting away from making Linux software depend on GNU and Linux. It's not BSD.
>>54060231
You're not making any sense. Now you're saying that they deliberately shipped buggy software, even though that would damage their reputation.
>>54060262
>Because systemd is forcing them by raping the system.
What the hell do you mean by this?
Systemd does more than init, so it's more complex.
>>54059843
>Why would you give a flying fuck about what goes on in the kernel as long as your apps still work?
Five years later:
"Don't pay any attention to the spyware and shit we're loading, you wanted your fucking app, now suck it up and just install it."
>>54060259
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/systemd/
140 depend on systemd
Please take your foot and put it in your ass,you dont know jack fucking shit
>>54060259
OP here, let me see if I understand
If we were to take the set of software that we used to have which is now being replaced by systemd, and call that "A".
Would you say that A had about the same amount of things depending on it as systemd does now?
>>54060013
>Just upgrade you retard. If systemd is good enough for RHEL, it's good enough for you.
You seem to think that the sun rises and sets in Red Hat's pants.
Do I give a fuck that Red Hat exists?
Does ANYONE give two rat's asses?
Red Hat is a company, hell, they are a publicly-traded corporation. And they are required to make money, like any other corporation. Red Hat will do what is necessary to make money. If that means ass-raping your mother, then they will do it, and pay the lawyers to get you to settle out of court and sign a non-disclosure.
>>54060301
>You're not making any sense. Now you're saying that they deliberately shipped buggy software, even though that would damage their reputation.
How the fuck do you think Microsoft made their first Billion? What are you, asleep?
>>54060178
lel what a fucking retard
>>54060325
>https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/systemd/
>140 depend on systemd
>Please take your foot and put it in your ass,you dont know jack fucking shit
Package dependencies?
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? THAT'S YOUR METRIC?
Fuckit, nevermind. Get back to me when you can show me how a compile will 100% fail without any systemd present.
Hint: it will be newer software that has already taken the systemd-only plunge.
>>54060414
>compile
Literally all 140 of those pages,which use udev,which systemd usurped
>Udev is now part of systemd and is installed by default. See the systemd-udevd.service(8) man page for information.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Udev
Your move.
>>54060357
>If we were to take the set of software that we used to have which is now being replaced by systemd, and call that "A".
>Would you say that A had about the same amount of things depending on it as systemd does now?
That's a very different comparison to "it's replacing init".
The answer is: no. And I can say that because the software dependencies were not always baked in at the source level. Sometimes it was a simple matter of cross-calling a program by name. Which means you could SWAP OUT something and things might still move along...
Systemd is more than a user land replacement, it's a set of APIs. And those APIs are locked to systemd in such a way that the cost of reimplementation would probably exceed the value. In other words: the comparison you're making doesn't pan out.
>>54060301
Lots of software has good cross operating system compatibility. OpenRC and init work on the BSDs.
A big problem with systemd being complex is that it runs on process ID 1, so if it crashes, it can take down the whole system.
If this complexity was necessary, that would be unfortunate, but unavoidable. I don't think that that's the case here. Many of the functions of systemd could be performed by separate programs.
>>54060457
>https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Udev
What is the udev 208 fork?
For that matter:
What is eudev?
What is mdev?
What is hotplug?
What is makedev(8)?
People CHOOSE to lash themselves to the white whale. What will REALLY break if it isn't udev? Seriously, will the system melt into a puddle because udev isn't present?
I get the feeling you are pandering to non-server setups.... what use case are you envisioning?
>>54060485
And yet systemd is being adopted by every major distribution. Do you really think you know better than RedHat, Canonical, and Poettering?
>>54060470
Ok, so then it's just the whole landscape changing? I could be ok with that.
But then I have one more question, what if a new alternative comes along that also acts like a set of APIs that accomplish the same tasks in a similar way to systemd.
Would I be able to expect that Linux distros could include that as an option with little to no effort?
If so then I might be able to accept systemd. It's important to me though because if that's not the case then I'd again have to wonder what systemd is doing that makes it so special.
>>54060540
Not Gentoo.
In this case, yes.
>>54060540
>And yet systemd is being adopted by every major distribution.
"Bandwagon" appeal aside, please wake me when the largest distribution running a linux kernel runs systemd internally, i.e. Android. The rest is statistical noise at the moment.
>Do you really think you know better than RedHat, Canonical, and Poettering?
Red Hat isn't an entity, Canonical is going along for the ride, and Poettering (& Co.) is/are a joke. A quarter of a million lines of code to accomplish what others have done in less than 25k, I judge him by his actions and not his words. And his actions speak plenty to me.
>>54060545
>But then I have one more question, what if a new alternative comes along that also acts like a set of APIs that accomplish the same tasks in a similar way to systemd.
>Would I be able to expect that Linux distros could include that as an option with little to no effort?
That's a nice thought. But no-one will care, even if it is shown to be superior in every aspect.
How do you think EVMS was sunk over LVM?
>>54060532
If you want toget rid of systemd's infection,you have to literally gut your system and repair it.
Not something anyone would want to do.And when your distro is rotating systemd exclusivly,you dont have much of a choice,as openrc would be broken various times
This means you have little to no choice.or rather,systemd wont work without its version,because they do shit differently,and it isnt supported
Look up LUKS suppport(systemd-cryptsetup) is taking up to a minute to decrypt when using cryptsetup by its self is about 2s not including t he time the user has to type in their password.
WONTFIX.Pull requests accepted.but its your software,and your software(systemd-cryptedup) is inferior to the source program.
>>54060590
Gentoo allows you to choose other init systems, it doesn't exclude systemd.
>>54060590
>please wake me when the largest distribution running a linux kernel runs systemd internally, i.e. Android.
Android always lags behind because it uses an LTS kernel with older features. Also, Android isn't GNU so this isn't really relevant here.
>Red Hat isn't an entity
Red Hat, Inc. is an American multinational software company.
>>54060627
>If you want toget rid of systemd's infection,you have to literally gut your system and repair it.
>Not something anyone would want to do.And when your distro is rotating systemd exclusivly,you dont have much of a choice,as openrc would be broken various times
>This means you have little to no choice.or rather,systemd wont work without its version,because they do shit differently,and it isnt supported
This right here is a tacit admission that >>54060191 is the only sane way out.
>>54060662
True. I thought you meant something different by adopt.
I'm totally fine with people using systemd. I don't like it when it's forced on people and alternatives are made difficult.
>>54060662
>Android isn't GNU so this isn't really relevant here
Completely confused as to how GNU fits into the discussion at this point.
>>54059447
If you are truly honest OP, here's a good place to start:
http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd
you can't
it's bloated for a mere init system
>>54060540
>And yet systemd is being adopted by every major distribution.
Nobody gave a shit about systemd until it became a dependency for Gnome via logind.
Most distros don't have the manpower to patch out those dependencies.
Unrelated:
Guess who develops Gnome!
Because you fell for this retarded meme hard. Every time something new comes along with linux everyone freaks the fuck out, claims dictatorship, and 3 months after every distro accepts it, they wouldn't remember it if you reminded them of it. You're basically the smarter college dropout version of complaining to random sites when youtube changes its layout or design.
-Remember the shitstorm when pulseaudio was being taken in and it was relatively unstable compared to now?
-Remember grub2 replacing grub and how everyone freaked the fuck out when they had to learn something to make grub generate its own config instead of them doing it by hand?
-Remember how the transfer rate of people from gnome2 to gnome3 was less than 10% due to it being too tablet oriented and how nobody would ship or maintain gnome2 anymore?
-Remember how much shit everyone flipped when Ubuntu started shipping unity by default even though you could easily switch it out at any time?
Of course you don't because only systemd hate became the kind of meme it did. It's mostly passed but at the height of it I saw linux newfags make threads like
>I don't use linux but I want to but what distros DON'T have systemd? Systemd SUCKS and is KILLING LINUX. Btw guys what's this thing called, an "init system", I don't know what that is
Not knowing what the fuck you're talking about but repeating it means you are a parrot meming as hard as possible. Penny to a pound are you wouldn't have half a clue how they differ or what the other choices even ARE.
>Help me like systemd
Your choices are as follows:
-Take the red pill, grow up, stop giving a fuck, and get a linux job where you use ubuntu. Linux is about being the best and quickest and free-est platform to run APPS for business, if you start to "tinker" you end up in desktop threads jacking off to anime boys pretending to be girls.
-Take the "red pill", install some obscure BSD, and keep that special snowflake syndrome going.
>>54060191
>say "fuck it" and go *BSD
Do this OP, the "it" in this case refers to your employability for the future. Remember your dreams of the future? Fuck those too.
>>54060917
Wait, so there's 2 red pills?
>>54059447
>>54060109
>But I guess it's mostly because I like to install distributions that don't come with a lot of default software
Oh boy, contrarian alert.
You don't know what you want, because you want arch and it has le evil systemd now too so it sucks, "I guess". Ironically enough I rarely see arch spergs complain about systemd. Look mate this isn't gonna stop here. I wasn't gonna tell you about this because it's a secret club, you probably wouldn't fit in. It's even more obscure and shitty than BSD. And doesn't have any "software". win-win. You didn't hear it from me though
>>54060988
I do apologise, I spent too much time on a certain board that flaunted these terms, I suppose I am nothing more than a memelet myself
>>54061039
This thread and my concerns about systemd are something entirely different than you think they are.
>>54061087
Do you or do you not use Arch Linux?
>>54061097
I do not. I use gentoo which is happily running with openrc.
I'm considering my options. If you read my posts again you'll see that I'm neutral. This thread so far has actually helped me feel a lot better about systemd.
>>54061125
Good. I use it on everything.
>>54060851
Good thing it's not, and has never claimed to be just "a mere init system" then, isn't it?
