How would you explain to your business major boss that you are worth more than an Indian or a Chinese worker who will do your same job for 1/5th of the salary?
>>51639867
POO
>>51639867
>do your same job
lol
Because it isn't the same job, they churn out shitty bloated barely if you're lucky functioning code that is then repaired and optimized by westerners
I'm more valuable because I'm not 3/5's of a person
because i'm not a fucking currynigger chink with substandard work practices, ethics, or any of that. go to those countries, they shit in their streets, they all rape and steal from each other, their 'work ethic' is cheat cheat cheat cheat plagiarize fucking everything cut corners and do everything they can to get out of any actual work. their entire countries are built with substandard bullshit construction where you look at the building funny and it collapses killing everyone, and no one gives a shit. you want these people working for you?
>>51639890
No one in the business world cares if your code is "efficient", just if it works. If a Chinese or Indian can code a program for 1/5th of your salary and it runs a little bit more slowly, no one will care. It's also cheaper to hire a contractor to fix decent enough code to make it just work than to keep you on full time.
>>51639915
Racist views on Chinese and Indian society don't matter, only the bottom line does.
Because I am white, and a heavy chunk of the programming industry is as racist as you are, so I'm safe
>>51639975
If I spoke poonjab or chink I would probably just turn into a nerdpimp myself.
The biggest barriers are language and hands on. In a spookware spyware world that could be an advantage, compartmentalization with top down hierarchy and all which might help explain certain tends in tech today. If you want the reality of bottom lines, all technology is a means to an end, and that end is control one way or another. The only exception was perhaps that brief flash of light called the reformation and renaissance, or the obscure description know as the enlightenment.
most indian contractors cannot really do much for themselves, you have literally explain every single fucking step in extreme detail and answer weird questions as to why it is done that way.
i want you to take these user accounts and make sure they are in the correct groups, not fucking explain why and not have to go through step by step 20 fucking times
"You get what you pay for"
>>51639975
>Racist views on Chinese and Indian society don't matter, only the bottom line does.
and you're right, with businesses the bottom line really is the end all be all. good thing i don't need to worry about working for some shitty company that only cares about how much money lines the board of director's and shareholders pockets.
>>51640068
>most indian contractors cannot really do much for themselves, you have literally explain every single fucking step in extreme detail and answer weird questions as to why it is done that way.
This guy knows.
>>51639890
>Because it isn't the same job, they churn out shitty bloated barely if you're lucky functioning code that is then repaired and optimized by westerners
This guy doesn't know.
>>51640142
FUCK YOU ! I AM NOT NEET !!!
>tfw no indian gf
>>51639975
> unable to deal with obvious things
> start bitching about "racism"
>>51639867
>I speak english, listen, and think.
Done.
>>51639975
This. We just exported twenty jobs down to south america where I work.
>>51639867
I have 3 times more experience and my knowledge comes back multiple renown sources.
>>51640211
Yeah but you're a weeaboo so they might hire you to fill their Disabled persons quota but other than that you're SOL
Me: You realize that our work is in critical infrastructure and classified environments? Do you want to explain to the Department of Defense where the plans to our electrical grids came from?
>>51640279
they wouldnt be getting a security clearance if they werent a citizen
>>51640156
You obviously are. There's no time for "repairing" code, you either get new offshore engineers or give them simpler tasks.
Because there are enough blindly patriotic retards around that even if our product costs five times as much and has half the functionality, they'll still buy it because it's MADE IN 'MURICA!
>>51640320
well, it's a bit more fungible than that. I know a few people that aren't natural US citizens who get clearances, but the point is that Chinese or Indian people can't get my security clearance so there's a natural born preventative measure as to why my job can't be outsourced.
>>51640242
Weabos beat loopoo's and chen's any day baka sempai.
If you plan on staying in business long term, you'll need software that's built logically, by someone who actually understands the scope now, and how it could potentially be extended later. The amount of technical debt that builds up with India-based developers is terrifying. I work for a multinational that shipped development of 4 large scale products to India about 8 years ago. Every year, the performance capacity plummets, the system requirements double, the install failures increase exponentially, and the entire thing becomes more and more fragile. Their solutions are always to add another layer onto it. Most recently to store all configuration settings and live storage in MongoDB.
Anybody who's ever had experience with MongoDB can guess how well that's going. Plus, they have no idea what should be configurable and what shouldn't, hence you have internal functional configuration values presented alongside optional features and variable prerequisites in an enormous list 500 entries long.
And then there's the DO THE NEEDFUL THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET THE VALUE WHAT YOU ARE WANT TO CHANGE tier documentation. I honestly believe the business would be better off reverting the last 8 years of commits. Of course that'd then put us 15 years behind the competition. Goddamn fuck what upper management has done to this once great company. Outsourcing will be the death of us.
I can work in the US without an H1B
>>51639867
It actually would be hard to explain some superiors who are business managers and not technical managers. I would simply ask to be allowed, on my on time, to provide a comprehensive report of developments houses experiences sources from the Internet, friends, and the industry as a whole, showing the common futility in outsourcing such a major part of their product. I would specifically focus on recovery efforts after outsource; how the mistake ended up costing much more than keeping development talent in house, etc...
>>51640206
that trip
>>51639975
that's totally not true you fucktard
My friend who works for a huge IT company that works for big car company's would fire you for this 1 sentence.
There biggest customer is BMW and they are very very demanding and want a system that they can keep using for the next 10 years and keep upgrading it in this 10 years.
The have shit tons of workers who get paid very very low money to writte a code that in the end my friend has to fix.
Indians are used for basic and tedious work and the western IT guys get paid shit tons of money to actually fix the shit and do the complicated things.
My friend could write you a book about how dumb this indians are.
Fun fact, I work in a company where only two developers are white, the rest are foreign born or non white and this is in a company west of London
The whole "Indians can't code or need whites to complete their code" is a /pol/ inspired meme that doesn't reflect reality (again, /pol/)
>>51640576
If the company is so great then why have I never heard of them?
>mfw you're literally one of the non-whites
>>51640576
Yeah, and those Indians work for similar wages as you, because they are worth their salt. I think OP was focusing on outsourcing code projects to offshore teams.
tfw work with indians doing the same code monkey job
tfw my salary is actually 1/5th of theirs
tfw they code and understand everything better than me
>>51640576
There's no doubt that there are some good Indians. Every turd has a diamond in it. I've worked for multiple companies though where the entire Oracle team is Indians, and they are so unloyal that they would leave the job for a slightly better paying one elsewhere before they even got their computer and phone at their desk. Literally, left it before the second day
I work in tech support and we have a lot of Indians
They are capable and can do the work plus there are better at dealing with other Indian customers
>>51639867
i dont shit in the street, for one.
>>51639941
THE
pro tip : you're not
You won't have to bear with a worker having an annoying accent if you hire me
>>51639867
i poop in a toilet
>>51639915
Someone's mad Raju and Wang were hired over him
>>51639867
I will tell him I'm not better, but good luck with finding an Indian or Chinese worker who will do the same job I will.
I speak English and poo in loo
>>51642198
LOO
>>51639882
>>51639941
>>51642198
>>51642427
ayyyyyyyyyy
>>51639867
>How would you explain to your business major boss
Found your problem.
A business major can no more discern quality code then he can discern quality writing in Egyptian hieroglyphics. He is equally lost when it comes to predicting the impact that outsourcing or importing an engineering team will have on the long term health of the company.
We've got the same problem in IT that other g-loaded professions have had in the past: namely that 'normies' cannot possibly understand the choices before them or make a rational cost/benefit analysis. So they go with the cheapest option because dollar signs are the only thing they do understand.
And things go to shit.
The difference is that in other forms of engineering "going to shit" often involved death, so government and industry were quick to impose laws, regulations, educational requirements, certifications, etc. Although the stakes in IT are growing every day, we haven't reached the point yet where normies demand government move in and solve the problem.
Cheap Indian and Chinese teams are often pure shit. Their code is shit. The resulting performance, reliability, and security is shit. And there's always the risk that your code and data will wind up else where.
But the IQ 105 business major can't grasp any of this.
This is why jobs in pure tech companies are so highly coveted. When everyone up to the CEO is a coder, and you know your shit, you don't have to explain why you're more valuable to the company then some sub-min wage Indian kid asking questions on stackoverflow and pooing in the street.
>>51639867
I work in startups. Sink or swim and Indians don't know how to swim.
>>51639975
It's obvious that you don't understand how the business world works.
Bad engineering rots the product from the inside. Startups come along and eat your lunch.
>>51640555
>The have shit tons of workers who get paid very very low money to writte a code that in the end my friend has to fix.
>Indians are used for basic and tedious work and the western IT guys get paid shit tons of money to actually fix the shit and do the complicated things.
But this process is fundamentally broken. Good code...good software architecture...is planned from the beginning. I have no doubt your friend can patch the street poo he gets to make it better, but it's still not as good as it could be if he and people like him did it right from the beginning.
This is why I've lost all respect for business types. It's a fundamental flaw in our society that people with average IQs are "trained" to oversee the work of those with high IQs. As if they could ever understand it or make the right calls. (Pushing average IQ people into high IQ careers is another major problem, i.e. "let's make everyone a coder!" and "cool clock ahmed!")
Case in point #1: the loss of the shuttle Challenger thanks to management while the engineers were literally SCREAMING that the booster would fail.
Case in point #2: the loss of shuttle Columbia when management refused engineering requests for an EVA to evaluate the tile damage.
Case in point #3: the Toyota accelerator issue. Their ECU code was studied by outside experts as part of the civil trial and it was absolute shit, so bad that it's surprising Toyota cars don't just randomly burst into fucking flames. Once again management had no clue and chose the cheapest options.
I could go on. This shit needs to end.
>>51640518
this is true. i mean, i'm not trying to be racist, but i am being critical of a very slim aspect of naieve, enthusiastic programmers: they want to do everything. they don't obey KISS or "You ain't gonna need it".
>>51640518
This is 100% true.
Thank you for writing this for me.
>>51639867
>How would you explain to your business major boss that you are worth more than an Indian or a Chinese worker who will do your same job for 1/5th of the salary?
You don't. You never make any such attempt.
What you do is leave. They aren't paying you as much as you want? Leave. You don't like the direction the company is going? Leave. You don't like coworker X? Leave. Been at the company for three years? Leave.
The worst thing you can do is stay at a company and be a bitch. Your boss's bitch, some other asshole coworker's bitch, any of it. Be your own man and work on your own terms.
The one and only time you get to define those terms is when you get hired. Your old boss does not value you. You are simply a means to generate income. When you leave, if you are missed (techincally speaking/business-wise) then he will resent you for leaving.
I worked at a company that didn't value me. I moved across the country and took a new job. They hired three people to replace me.
The worst decisions I've ever made have been decisions that actually took into consideration the company I worked for. Fuck them. They don't care about you, you don't care about them, the one and only way to deal with a situation like that is to simply take your talent elsewhere.
>>51639867
Indian software is horrible. They stick all kind of things in it, and don't even bother making it stable first.
I don't need a Hungoecezz™ Sound Engine®, I need a stable kernel you fucking shits.
Franco's kernels are way better than the shit indians put out. He may not be great, but his shit is way better than what indians make.
When you've seen an indian kernel programmer, you've seen all indian programmers.
>>51639867
"Tell your customers they'll be talking to indians next time."
He'd change his mind pretty quickly
>>51642700
>the loss of the shuttle Challenger thanks to management while the engineers were literally SCREAMING that the booster would fail.
Challenger was lost due to political scheming. The boosters were built in a particular location and sent in on a barge due to a politician's attempt to "save jobs" in his region. The boosters were not brought up to the engineered temperature in time, they hadn't expanded as expected, and they exploded.
It was 100% due to political machinations trumping practical and engineering considerations.
>>51639867
>business major
I'm worth more than him too.
>>51639867
For one thing, I am fluent in 7 programming languages and I speak the English language well. Companies also tend to not want foreigners in charge of their infosec.
Companies also find sponsor H1 visas a pain in the dick.
>>51639867
>3rd world standards are the same as 1st world standards
kek, the reason is that the most incompetent 1st world tech worker is still more competent than the average Indian or Chinese tech worker because all their universities are poo.
>inb4 chinese universities are gr8
They all do stupid nationalistic garbage research that literally does nothing to advance technology because they're all state sponsored retardation by and for the state and not designed to actually bring anything useful to the marketplace.
>>51642789
>Challenger was lost due to political scheming. The boosters were built in a particular location and sent in on a barge due to a politician's attempt to "save jobs" in his region. The boosters were not brought up to the engineered temperature in time, they hadn't expanded as expected, and they exploded.
>It was 100% due to political machinations trumping practical and engineering considerations.
No. Read up on it. Solid rockets are going to be built in sections and need O-rings even if built on site.
The O-rings were not "brought up" to temperature. They were only supposed to be used within a specific range of outdoor temps. If temps were too cold within a certain number of hours of launch they would not expand and function properly (that part you got right).
The engineers knew the prevailing weather at the launch site and told their management to tell NASA to delay the launch until another time. Their management buckled under pressure from NASA management and didn't put their foot down, and NASA management got the launch they wanted.
The lead engineer knew it was going to blow. But the lower IQ arrogant assholes in management had authority to override him. That is a fundamental flaw in American society (not sure about other nations). We should not place those people in positions of authority.
Because I can speaka de english.
>>51642771
hey, come on now..
>>51642873
keep telling yourself that
Judging by my pay, I'm not.
At least I'm white.
>>51642873
While I don't disagree, 'Merican colleges aren't much better right now...
>>51639867
Ãm not
im worthless
hire me or i kill myself
>>51645685
At least light yourself on fire to save you family the cremation expense.
>>51639867
Security reasons, readability of code obviously, they often know nothing about best practices, language barrier, performance issues with their code, often no testing, no long-term support.
But as you are speaking with your econ. manager just tell him that most forbes 500 companies tried that already and are insourcing the bits because of higher long-term costs and their code ending up in some Chinese malware.
It's the free market at work, you shilled for it worldwide, you can't complain now.
If they replace 70% of western programmers, I'll shill for fsf so hard. I'll dedicate my life to writing free software to put these fucking subhumans out of a job.
>>51640555
>my friend
Stopped reading there.
>>51640157
it's a good feel. indians are ugly.
>>51639867
50% of my software team is in India. I produce more in a week than they can in 6 months. My boss knows this because he manages us all.
I'm not going anywhere any time soon.
We have customers in India who use us because literally nobody in their entire poop stained subcontinent can give them what they need. Short of India spending a trillion dollars each on datacenters, power grid improvements, undersea fiber bandwidth, and public health there's no chance of that changing.
>>51644949
Not 'murican, but 'murican colleges are still pretty much among the best out there, bar almost none.
>>51646003
Mate the amount of BTUs to burn a human body is insane, he can't just light himself on fire, he has to stand in a pool of fuel.
>>51640645
Then why don't you befriend them and learn from them?
>>51639867
Because those niggas can't think outside the box and only strictly follow standard procedure.
>>51639867
I've actually invented and created new things, have a github and youtube following, am a us citizen
>>51639867
kek a lot of programming job descriptions emphasis knowing english
>>51639867
Because My boss actually understands what the fuck I am saying and I can get the work done right instead of paying to fix the same work multiple times.
>>51639867
i can speak english properly for a start
I don't smell funny
>>51639867
I can't. Most of these people are doing one job while they answer you on the phone, and they go do 3 or 4 other jobs before sleeping and eating at home.
I learned more liberal arts(didn't pay for it) ) along with my programming to make better solutions?
>>51639867
Im a German/Chinese halfbreed working on a team with 2 Saxons and 9 Indians.
I do more work in less time than the other 11 fuckasses. It's also clear to bosses because I make 50k more too.
So I'm glad all these shitskins fuck up so much work because I make so much money fixing it all. And it's dumb mistakes too, because they're dumb.
Now look, I'm not a racist, but can we all agree that poor shit countries that ruin everything for everyone else should be bombed to rubble and then have waves of robotic laborers and soldiers go in and maintain the vast tracks of now empty land removing every trace of resources for the first world?
>>51639915
>cheat cheat cheat cheat plagiarize fucking everything cut corners and do everything they can to get out of any actual work
Shit, I'm white and I do that now.
>>51648564
curry pls go
>>51639867
I'm more valuable because I am a cis gendered white male who cis gendered white males can relate to
Oh also because I have better schooling and a more diverse background in my sector
>>51649760
Nice sarcasm there SJW shitskin. You are so racist when it comes to others but SJW your own causes.
> most ppl in the world learn compsci on their own not in school
Learn to fucking read, you don't need skin color or a university to learn, Adjay.
>>51640157
>This is a 10/10 indian
>This is a 4/10 elsewhere
Because China, India, and the USA all have wildly different ideas of what a college education should be. Especially in regards to PhDs. India is churning out PhD holders at a startling rate yet these are the people who don't have the intelligence to poo in loo. If you have ever looked at the curriculum of an Indian college you will see that their PhD programs at best matches a bachelors in the USA. There's a reason very few people travel to India to go to college. In China, cheating is the name of the game when it comes to academics. And instead of actually doing the work they will cut corners, plagiarize, and bluff their way through college, meaning they never actually learn anything. So if you feel like you want to take your chances with these people just so you can pay them less than me, then go right ahead. Because in the USA, we tend to network with our peers and family to get jobs. But I'll go ahead and warn you, cheap IT labor isn't as good as it sounds and has actually been the downfall of many large companies as their products decreased in quality, stability and functionality.
Have a good day sir.
>>51640157
ugh! ew
Nice try, pajeet
>>51649989
I'm in nuclear engineering, most of my PhD courses required government clearance for the software I used
>>51639867
Two words: classified information.
>>51639867
Because
#1:
>You have moral standards for refusing to work for 1/5 and moral standards are valuable.
#2:
>Accent. Say "hello this is microsoft" with and without indian accent. Who would you trust rather?
#3:
>Other reasons why you specifically are better than other employees regardless of their background.
>>51639867
I don't know, my bosses made that speech for me already.
All I know is that a well written script is worth more than my job.
And a person who could write good scripts every day could replace my entire team.
[spoiler]I'm not telling anyone though[/spoiler]
>>51639975
>Reddit styled posting
Leave please.
>>51639901
/thread
Why are you interviewing me if you're prepared to hire someone else for a fifth of the cost? Obviously you're concerned about the quality of work done.
There, done.
Because I poo in loo.
>>51639867
Serious question, I ask this every time it comes up but no one has provided a satisfactory answer.
Why don't companies give you the opportunity to undercut foreigners? "Hm, you want $20 an hour. Raj here says he will do it $10 an hour."
I only ask because I'm a fresh graduate and would work pretty much minimum wage just for the opportunity to get my foot in the door, get training, and get experience.
Like when Disney replaced all their workers with H1Bs, why not say "The value of your labor has decreased by 50%, are you willing to continue doing this job for that price?" Some people might be desperate and need to feed their families so they'd rather take a pay cut than unemployment.
>>51656614
High potential for disgruntled employees fucking things up.
>>51639867
If my boss had the gall to say that to my face, I would quit right then and there.
Any manager stupid enough to ask that question is not worth my time.
"Ever called Microsoft Enterprise support to try and fix your fucked forest? Now call them for literally everything that breaks."
>>51656614
The cost of living in the US (if that's where you live) is too high to realistically undercut a foreign-born worker. You can offer for them to slash your salary, but you better have a second job in order to make ends meet.
As far as Disney, it varies by state, but you get unemployment in the US if you are laid off aka fired but not for cause.
Unless you are unbelievably desperate to keep a job in a total shit economy where they are no jobs at all, then maybe, but it's not quite a shit economy and unemployment is going down so it's foolish IMO to consider doing it now.
>>51639915
This. It's how their culture works.
>>51656614
>>51656614
Because they'd invariably discover the quality of the work plummets.
I'm fine with a visa coworker, because I can hold them personally accountable for being a lazy shit-ass.
Outsourced, phoned in support, is some of the worst support you can get. Even paid-for MS enterprise support, will get you a tier 1 or 2 Indian whose only goal is to close the ticket. They are not their to help you identify the root cause of your issue, they're their to band-aid the issue and close the ticket.
>>51648086
Agreed, while the #snowflake crowd are causing problems and generally making mountains out of molehills, there are a number of people who are actually learning and advancing technology.
>>51639901
Underrated post
