![Tesla-Model-S[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SvdQulZ.jpg "Tesla-Model-S[1].jpg")
>Only wealthy people can afford to buy energy and environmentally friendly tech (Electric cars/home energy saving tech). Poor people will continue having to pay through the nose for energy and remain poor.
>>51477041
>being so poor you cant afford a tesla
u wot m8, they cost the same as a normal petrol car
>>51477082
I drive a used Ford Fiesta so no. I cannot afford a new car full stop. Also I cannot afford to insulate my home. Basically I am energy poor and pay through the nose to heat the place.
>>51477124
b-but insulation doesn't even cost a thousand bucks and you can't complain about being poor if you drive a car, they are expensive to maintain
just use pleblic transport and bikes
>>51477041
Not true, but it takes time for fully electric cars to become affordable. The regular guy will be able to afford a second hand electric car in maybe 5 years from now when Mercedes, BMW, VAG have electric cars in full production. From that point on it will only take maybe two years until manufacturers are bringing out small affordable fully electric cars. You can already by a Prius at decent prices today. Although the Prius is not a very exciting car it's very well made qualitatively and the batteries never give out. Buying a Prius is probably the smartest choice you can make when buying a used car today.
>>51477198
This. It takes some time for brand new technologies to reach the point where majority of the world can afford it.
Demand and supply.
>>51477193
Please come replace my 7 *LARGE* bay (drafty and rattly) windows for less than $1000.
>>51477198
the newer model prius' are awesome
>>51477248
hey, you said insulation, fixing dafts on windows, doors, installing thermal curtains, installing air circulation and heating is different
>>51477041
Tesla isn't the only manufacturer of an electric car, you know.
-Chevy Spark EV starts at $25k before tax breaks.
-Ford Focus Electric starts at $29k before tax breaks.
-Nissan Leaf starts at $29k before tax breaks.
-Fiat 500e starts at $32k before tax breaks.
Leases on these EVs are incredibly affordable as well.
>>51477350
>I think I need to define poor here.
>energy and environmentally friendly tech
>a car
Pick one.
>>51477350
You pay like 400 euro a month for a private lease for the Nissan Leaf. That is for the most basic edition.
None of those cars are really there yet. They're made for government agencies to waste money on.
>>51477437
Considering electric cars have only been on the market for a couple years, demanding that they be as cheap as a Kia is incredibly misguided. It's like complaining that people below the poverty line can't afford the latest smartphone.
Moving up to the middle class, if you're an adult with full time employment and you cant afford the monthly payments on a $25,000 car then you should probably just take a swan dive off an overpass.
>>51477124
The hell do you heat with?
I live in a non-insulated house from the 30s, and I can heat the place with ~4-6 stere of wood a winter, which costs around 200-400 Euro.
>>51477522
Sucks to be where you are, in the US I can lease a 2016 Leaf for $199/month
>>51477198
So how is the regular guy going to charge his fully electric car? He doesn't have a garage and there is 0 infrastructure for charging electric cars.
Electric cars are a just smugmobiles for rich suburban americans. It's completely impractical for people living in cities.
>>51477594
Gas boiler connected to 7 rads (I have half of them turned off and just live in the front room during the winter). The boiler is old and constantly being repaired (landlord won't replace it).
The windows are huge old Victorian single glazed sashes. I also have a condensation problem. Flat roof on my bedroom too so it gets fuck cold and condensates like buggery. I should move but I am currently looking for a job so cash is a problem right now. It's something I am working on though. I should have tried moving when I was working on minimum wage. Now it just became impossible.
>>51477642
Infrastructure is good enough depending on where you live. In Europe and California in the US there are enough charging stations already. But you will eventually be able to charge your car with stationed fuel cell that doesn't need to be connected to a power network and can be placed anywhere.
>>51477082
Really now?
>>51477801
There are only enough charging stations for the 5 idiots who actually drive electric cars and you still have to leave your Tesla smugmobile there for 5 hours to be fully charged. It's completely ridiculous compared to a petrol car that can be filled up in 2 minutes.
The infrastructure for every parking space to have a charger is simply impossible in cities. Either bring charging time down to 10 minutes or fuck off with your useless technology.
>>51477803
Hello Kevin.
>>51478046
Hi :)
>>51478017
The supercharger stations charge a Tesla with enough energy for 270km in just 30 minutes. And because of the Tesla's great range you don't have to charge it very often.
https://www.teslamotors.com/nl_NL/findus#/bounds/49.38,-66.94,25.82,-124.38999999999999?search=supercharger&name=Amerika
>>51477248
Me being an eneryauditor for 3 years now. Unless you have original Metal framed Windows there are many more cost efficient ways to reduce air infiltration and improve the thermal boundary of your home.
>>51477803
>Luxury vehicle
>Subcompact car
yeah, great comparison faggot
>>51478017
how long do electric cars last?i mean if they can go 5 days of nonstop driving before it needs a charge.. then 5hrs isn't that bad
>>51478171
>>51477082
Today, on "shitposting out of context"...
>>51478177
tesla does about 400km and then needs about 30 minutes of supercharging to reach 270km from zero
>>51478156
>Have Tesla smugmobile
>Waste 30 minutes of your life every week waiting for your car to recharge
>Have normal car
>Drive into petrol station for 3 minutes once every 2 weeks
>>51478177
It is if you don't have your own private parking space with an outlet. If it takes 5 hours to recharge than a public infrastructure for charging is impossible to realise.
Also you are completely fucked if your battery is half empty and unexpectedly need to drive long distance.
>>51478282
So how many gallons of oil do you have to sell to keep your job?
>live in Norway
>electric cars are heavily subsidised, has lower tax, have benefits such as passing for free through toll booths etc
>people buy Tesla Model S as their secondary car
>>51478246
So the average car owner needs to find a charging station once a week and then has to spend 30 minutes waiting for his car to charge?
That's beyond retarded. Might as well use public transport if you have to waste that much time recharging your car.
>>51478337
People who can afford a Model S can afford to get a charging point installed. Plug in car overnight, never empty unless you have to drive ridiculous distances, in which case, supercharge on the way.
>>51478017
>Either bring charging time down to 10 minutes or fuck off with your useless technology.
Do you have a MS or PhD from a highly ranked grad school? If not, fuck off.
>>51478282
lol what. You can just charge your car at home at night and at your work and drive right past the petrol station.
>>51478282
I suppose you drive 24/7, never sleep and need to be on the road as much as possible
>>51478337
You know you can charge it at home and in parking lots (that offer electric charging), right?
>>51478246
That's shit. I couldn't even get all the way home from uni. I also don't like that the gear stick is on the steering wheel.
Also, I like [spoiler]driving a manual car. It's more fun.
Teslas have a range of 500km, which is about on par with petrol cars. You can charge overnight or fast charge on longer trips where you should be having a 30 minute break every 2-3 hours anyway.
>everyone here is on the road 24/7 without breaks
If you have to make long trips e.g. vacation you're gonna be taking a break every now and then anyways. Supercharging is actually surprisingly comfy, most if not all superchargers in Europe are near some form of food or drinks, so you can grab a coffee, drink it in peace, then continue driving. Leave it to charge a little longer if you have to eat, skip the next charger and grab a drink again at the one after that.
>>51478364
>>51478385
>>51478390
people who live in cities don't have garages or parking spaces provided either at home or at their workplace. Your shit doesn't work for 90% of the car owning population.
Stop shilling your useless smugmobiles when mankind could be focussing on much more practical technologies to reduce emissions. Personal transport only makes up a small percentage of emissions anyway
>>51477041
Nissan Leaf, desu. Decent mileage/charge, plus there's a whole bunch of complementary charging stations in my area, so I don't spend jack on electricity for the car.
Yes. I am Indian.
>>51478529
I'm sure you're doing your very best reducing emissions by eating burgers therefore killing cows which produce emission too.
>>51478422
It's not really that bad since you can charge it over night.
Also, future models will have some kind of batterychanging device at gas stations that swaps the battery in a few minutes plus batteries are getting better and better.
>>51478521
>taking breaks
Fucking weak. How often do you take breaks when you drive?
>>51478529
In Europe pretty much every company has a charging station. And you can easily install one at your home unless you live in an apartment building.
And if you live in the city and pay for a parking spot there's a good chance there charging stations available as well.
>>51478585
I drive an hour to work and an hour back daily. Going on vacation, I just drive and take a break every 3 hours or so because it's comfy as fuck. Sure, could keep driving, but it's not like my life depends on it, it's a fucking vacation.
>>51478171
He said "the (tesla s) cost the same as a normal petrol car" which I took to mean something like a generic sedan or subcompact, not a luxury car.
The Tesla S is still $30,000 more than an average entry-level luxury car.
>>51478743
Yeah, despite me praising electric cars, we're not going to see them become viable or city infrastructure support for them until we start seeing sub $20k models with at least 150km ranges
>>51478836
Tesla Model 3 (should be on the roads early 2017, we should see the production ready prototypes in May 2016) will be $35,000, which isn't half bad.
>>51478888
Yeah, it's getting there and despite the few of us being early adopters, it's still a ways off
>>51478888
BMW i3 is already available for 40k with the range extender it can do 300km.
>>51479078
k, how much is the range extender?
>>51479227
It's 40-44k depending on where you live and it can also run on petrol and do 40 miles to the gallon.
>reading this thread
>realize poor people actually exist
Thank god I grew up in a suburb full of people with big houses and nice cars (and now live in one)
>>51479286
What's the range without the range extender and without gas?
>>51479356
130 to 160 km depending on your driving style
>>51479380
I'd wait for a Tesla Model 3 then, it should be ~300 miles range.
>>51478643
>In Europe pretty much every company has a charging station
hahahaha
no.
>And you can easily install one at your home unless you live in an apartment building
the vast majority of the population in developed countries do live in apartment buildings. That's why only american suburbians actually buy Teslas.
>And if you live in the city and pay for a parking spot there's a good chance there charging stations available as well.
Again. Less than 5% of car owners do this.
>>51479425
The Model 3 is a much larger and heavier car. BMW i3 is a city car designed with the city of Amsterdam in mind. Tesla is more of a long distance car not really suitable for use in the city.
>>51479512
>Not for use in the city
Depends on the city, but driving a sedan around a typical US city isn't hard (ask my dad, he drives near-luxury rental cars fucking everywhere since he travels a lot). If you seriously want a car that can fit literally anywhere just get a fucking smart car.
>>51479565
Also we haven't even seen the Model 3 yet, it's probably going to be smaller than the Model S.
>>51479589
I would wait for the model 3 as well. Also have you heard about the Youxia. It's a Chinese copy of the Tesla. Even the company logo seems to be inspired by Tesla. http://youxiamotors.com/
>>51479737
http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20150818-youxia-ranger-x-is-totally-not-a-tesla
>>51479737
Looks interesting, and the price is certainly a lot lower than current US-made EVs. If only they would sell them in the US.
>>51477248
A few years ago, I bought a three story house at a decent area for only $60k . It was a wreck and I couldn't afford to just fucking renovate everything.
I got the basic necessities done (electricity, bathroom) and survived the the first winter by living in only one of the bigger rooms and placing styrofoam against the windows to function as insulators.
It looked like shit, kinda like the building from Fight Club but over the years, not having to pay rent was the best thing ever. You have to make sacrifices and do uncomfy shit to succeed. If you want luxury without having to put in the effort or money, go fuck yourself.
Right now, I'm turning the first floor into a studio office. That way, my buddy and I can ditch having to pay for office space and my commute time will dial down to like 10 seconds.
Electric vehicles are still fuck-ton expensive and not really economical right now. Sure fully recharging an 85 kWh battery only costs like 12$ and can give you up to ~310 miles of range but they still cost 50K+ which is still pretty fucking expensive even
The average person drives around 13,476 miles anually
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
So an electric car would cost you around $540 on electric fuel
Meanwhile a gasoline-fueled car would cost you around $1,347
SO, until electric vehicles cost ~20K they are nothing more than toys for rich people.
>>51477041
>yfw a Prius is now cheaper than an Accord
>yfw if you don't live in a house built before 1950, odds are good the "energy saving" tech like inline water heaters and super-efficient HVAC will never pay themselves off in your lifetime because they're only 3-5% more efficient than 1960's era equivalents. Doubly so if you don't live in a 2500+sqft McMansion built by mexicans who may or may not have actually insulated the walls.
>yfw a Prius rolls off the lot brand new with a higher carbon footprint than a Hummer H2 since they literally ship the uncompleted frame across the atlantic on a diesel-powered superfreighter TWICE before it's done being built since the frame's made in Europe, the engine in Canada, and it's assembled in Mexico.
So where do you all plan to get the extra electricity from? Burn more coal and oil? Muh wind/solar power?
That's not very green, anons.
>>51480265
>wind/solar power
>not green
Explain.
>>51480295
Solar cells and batteries are notoriously dirty to produce and inefficient.
Wind kills animals that get too close, creates huge shadows that bother homeowners, and if anything goes wrong, they send debris flying into said homes.
>>51480396
OK, so solar is shit, but we're working on improving that, right? I read something about graphene based solar cells being crazy efficient, compared to what we have now.
>Wind kills animals that get too close
Like, birds? Yeah, that's pretty bad. There needs to be some way of fixing that, maybe lowering/heightening the windmills so that birds don't fly into the blades.
>creates huge shadows that bother homeowners
I thought windmills were built out in the open planes. Don't know too much about them though.
Teslas are nice, but are still a rich man's toy. Unless the only thing you do in life is commute to work and get groceries, you'll need at least one other car.
The Volt is the only practical solution I've seen. You can run it solely by plugging-charging if you want, and if you exceed its battery capacity it uses gasoline to power a generator which feeds the engine. It also starts at $33k, so it's cheaper than any Tesla too.
At any rate, Tesla is overdue to make another flagship like the Roadster.
Why are all electric cars (except Tesla) fuck ugly?
>>51477803
>Kevin
I'll wait until the batteries last me as long as an engine.
>>51477082
>>51477350
I bought my used old car @ 1K. You cant get cheaper than that. Its reliable enough for my use.
>>51480660
I'm Kevin and I know plenty of other Kevins. First names are pretty damn meaningless on the internet.
>>51477041
Pretty much
>>51480529
>buying a prius clone
>buying anything from general motursss
>>51480679
I wouldn't trust most 1K cars personally. I got my pickup for $5000 and even that had some bizarre problems that cost me over $1000 to fix once it approached 80,000 miles.
>>51480265
We don't really give a fuck about the environment to be quiet honest (I know we should though). What we really want is to pay less money for things. If an electric car could be bought for less than 30K then you would significantly spend less in the long term compared to a petrol car.
A 2.4 kW solar panel config on a home could be installed for as little as 6K maybe even 4K.
Anyway if those solar panels could produce 1kW on average every hour (being optimistic here) then each month you would generate ~744 kW of electricity. This would let you fully charge your 80 kW electric car 5 times and generate ~344 kW of "free" electricity.
All of this might not be "green" but it sure as fuck is cheap.
>>51480728
I had to fix some issue ofcourse, but only spent about $200. Still a fine drive for the price.
>>51480726
My 03 Impala has served me dutifully. I paid less than $8k for it and I've put in maybe $1500 in repairs in the ~9 years I've had it. The car is fucking comfortable, too. Zero regrets.
Most of my coworkers drive BMWs and Mercedes. Their cars break more often and they have had to put in repairs that cost more than my entire car cost. That's what they put up with to drive 'status' cars.
>>51480750
The point is if electric cars become cheap enough that they become viable for the common man, this is going to increase demand in electricity and, therefore, the price of electricity.
You're not really solving anything, just shuffling responsibility around.
>>51481082
>The point is if electric cars become cheap enough that they become viable for the common man, this is going to increase demand in electricity and, therefore, the price of electricity.
Not true at all. People will start using solar panels and electric companies will panic and lower electricity prices to not go bankrupt.
Even if they don't then people will start hiring jose and pablo to install solar panels on the cheap, go off grip, and have 50-100 kW battery reserves.
>>51481151
Electric companies on suicide watch?!??
>>51477041
That tends to be how new technologies work. At first its only the rich, then normies, then everybody.
>>51477041
the cost savings and the environmental friendliness of these cars is not that easy to quantify.
I mean it takes a lot of energy and resources to make those batteries and then they have to be recycled/disposed of properly.
It make make far more sense for the average consumer to pick a hybrid that won't destroy their wallet instead
and the payoff for the tesla just keeps getting longer and longer..
So really, who is buying these teslas ? its just rich people that want that sub 3 second performance while being able to chime in and say how good they are for the environment. Needless to say they weren't driving some prius before the tesla arrived.
As hybrids become more fuel efficient the running cost difference between the Tesla and a hybrid becomes smaller and smaller making it harder to justify its hefty premium.
Granted the performance is worlds apart.
>>51480750
>2.4kW solar system
>less than $6,000USD
Try about $60,000USD. There's a reason only treehuggers and rich people looking for tax shelters use solar in the US. And yes, half that cost comes from fees, taxes, and other government fuckery if you wish to tie it into your residential grid (since pretty much nobody can run a normal house on 2.4kW/h and that's -peak- production) instead of going completely off the grid.
>>51481151
...you do realize that nearly half your electric bill in the US is composed of taxes and fees the government mandates, right?
US energy companies are already not doing too hot. A major price cut would render most of them insolvent.
>>51477041
>>51477082
>>51477124
>buying a car
Gooood goy!Pay hundreds of thousand dollars to drag you obese ass a few miles every day
>>51481664
You do realize that most single states in America are larger than almost all Euro countries, and shit is more than a few blocks/miles apart here, right?
I mean hell, a thirty mile/50km commute is considered SHORT in most of America. Some people have to drive upwards of 180km one way to get to work every. single. day.
>>51481572
Your math doesn't add up senpai. Pic related is a ~5x3 ft solar panel, 8 of them would only cost ~$3,200. You can find cheaper 300 watt solar panels but I'd trust LG with making long lasting solar panels.
Also, yeah solar panels alone can't power your average home which uses ~1,500 kW/month since a 2.4kW system might realistically only produce ~744 kW/month if you live in a sunny place. It would however cut the electric bill in half every month.
>>51481750
Okay, so you're looking at $3200 for -just- the panels.
Add in another $2,000 for the battery system, so you're not literally throwing out free electricity on a sunny day when you're at work and nothing's on, and having to draw fully from the grid when it's dark and you've got 7 computers and the A/C running.
Oh, and you have to wire it all together. Expect a couple hundred bucks in wires.
Then you will probably wish to pay a contractor to actually run the wires, because I doubt you really wish to be drilling holes clear through your wall by yourself. This is honestly region dependent (based primarily on the concentration of mexicans) but I can pretty much guarantee it starts at $600 and will usually be over a grand.
Then, you're looking at between $200 and $2700 in fees to the government (both federal and local) to tie into the grid, because yeah you're not running even a small cottage off 2.4kW/h worth of panels.
>yes, my math was off. A 500kW panel 4 years ago when I last looked at it was ten grand each.
>>51481750
>installation costs
>DC to AC conversion costing you at least 40% of harvested power
>battery costs (or you will be wasting that energy almost always and it won't lower your bill much at all)
>wiring costs
yeah its not 400$ for 300w, its more like $1200 for 100w that only gives you any real power a few hours out of a nice day.
if it was cost effective everyone would do it you fool.
>>51477193
Lmao! You sound like an urbanite! Yea.. go ahead and ride a bike the 35 miles i drive one way to work. And public transport? Yea.. you dont live in the u.s. or if you do, im betting chicago or new york... possibly san fran. Only 3 cities with realistic public transport.
>>51477198
Only electric car 98% of people can afford is one with bad batteries. Walmart doesnt sell prius batteries yet, but maybe with a little crownsourcing, we can get a replacement kit made in china we can replace it with that takes D cells...
>>51481808
As a continuation of this:
I have a 1920sqft house. It's old (1973). Because I don't have to have it at 60F during the summer and 80F during the winter, my average electric bill is around $170 at 13c/kWh. That's with a furnace and A/C from 1973, an always-on server, and 2 always-on desktops plus the normal appliances.
So I take my $10,000, 2.4kW/h system. I'm getting ~600kW/h a month from it because I don't fucking live in Florida. It knocks a quarter of my electricity bill off every month. Woo, I'm saving a massive $42.50 a month! That means it'll ONLY take me 282.36 months to break even. That's ONLY 23.5 years. By which point it will have broken twice, incurring significant expenses to repair it.
Right now, for the average person, SOLAR IS NOT AN ECONOMICAL OPTION.
Most people struggle to buy tires and everyone is talking about a 30k car like its candy. Shit. Wish i had your income. No thanks. Ill pay 5k for a 12 yr old used one and drive it for 4 to 5 years and repeat. Never had a car payment and i may drive an older car, but im not paying 80% to banks in interest.
>>51481808
>Add in another $2,000 for the battery system, so you're not literally throwing out free electricity on a sunny day when you're at work and nothing's on, and having to draw fully from the grid when it's dark and you've got 7 computers and the A/C running.
This is why net energy metering is a thing. You no longer need the battery system since you can literally sell electricity now in most states.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_energy_metering
>Then you will probably wish to pay a contractor to actually run the wires, because I doubt you really wish to be drilling holes clear through your wall by yourself. This is honestly region dependent (based primarily on the concentration of mexicans) but I can pretty much guarantee it starts at $600 and will usually be over a grand.
True, most people wouldn't be able to hook everything up properly.
>Then, you're looking at between $200 and $2700 in fees to the government (both federal and local) to tie into the grid, because yeah you're not running even a small cottage off 2.4kW/h worth of panels.
source? Hope the fees are reduced or even eliminated soon.
>>yes, my math was off. A 500kW panel 4 years ago when I last looked at it was ten grand for each.
They'll only get cheaper. We might get 500 watt solar panels for $500 around 2020. Shit's gonna be so cash.
>>51481922
>net energy meeting
So I can sell at 30-60% of the cheaper non-primetime rate, then turn around and buy it right back for a 150-400% markup during primetime when I'm actually home and not producing any/enough?
I'll take the battery bank, thank you.
>>51480562
Designed by engineers. When was the last time you saw a stylish engineer?
>>51481812
Everyone doesn't have hands on cash. Most Americans dont know how to plan ahead.
Also it won't be $1200 per 100w. Thats just outrageous. A 2k solar diy kit (excluding battery) costs about $4000. Batteries would cost maybe extra $2000, labor to set up would cost less than $1000 from a local electrician.
>>51481922
While net energy metering is available in at least some part of most states, keep in mind that there's about 25 states where solar power is simply not worth doing regardless of how long you have the system due to simply being too far north and too rainy (looking at you, Washington and Alaska!) and vast swathes of every state where that service is not offered.
Not to mention they usually make the customer pay for the new, fancy meter. They're not horrendously expensive (around $400), but they're damned sure not free either.
>>51481812
>>installation costs
Companies will be competing to install solar panels as they become popular. We might see companies charge 3K for labor and 3K for solar panels + dc to ac conversion equipment some day. Contractors might already be charging this.
>>DC to AC conversion costing you at least 40% of harvested power
For cheap ones yeah. Some dc to ac conversion kits are up to 80% efficient.
>>battery costs (or you will be wasting that energy almost always and it won't lower your bill much at all)
what is net metering
>yeah its not 400$ for 300w, its more like $1200 for 100w that only gives you any real power a few hours out of a nice day.
lolwut? see >>51481750
>if it was cost effective everyone would do it you fool.
And they will soon, those $500 500 watt solar panels won't take long to come into existence.
>>51481750
Your math is jacked. It will be about 300w at 12volts for about 8 hours a day at most which is 24kw a day at 12v. Convert to 120v for u.s. and its roughly 2.1kw a day with loss for inversion. x30 days is 63kw out of the 1500 needed by your math. You need 25 panela if you live in a nice sunny area. If not, double it. Then add the inverter (5k), mounting(3k), and grid tie in (8 to 15k).
>>51481979
>Also it won't be $1200 per 100w. Thats just outrageous. A 2k solar diy kit (excluding battery) costs about $4000. Batteries would cost maybe extra $2000, labor to set up would cost...
still ignoring the 40% loss on conversion to AC which almost everything you use runs on and it would cost a lot of convert your appliances to DC (which you really would have to if you wana use the most solar possible).
there are a lot of reasons only rich people in the far south have pannels. anyone else is doing it a a big loss and its taking those rich people in the south decades to recoup their investment or more than likely they never do.
and its not "green" to use pannels anyway, the heavy metals pollution and carbon it costs to make them are HUGE, not only for the pannel but the factory you are paying for also. giving demand to non-green products helps kill the environment if that's what you care about.
>>51482042
yeah you can get efficient dc converters but they can cost thousands making it less likely you will ever see profit.
>>51482105
Those solar panels are rated at the right efficiency. Conversion loss rate isn't 40%, with modern inverters, its around 90-97% efficiency, depending on the inverters themselves.
>>51482175
Only for the $4,000+ inverters, and you don't hit 95% efficiency til you're looking at the $100,000+ industrial inverters.
>>51482203
http://www.harborfreight.com/2000-watt-continuous4000-watt-peak-power-inverter-69662.html
$170 for 87%.
Amazon/other online sites have them for around $200 for ~90%.
>>51481887
>most people struggle to buy tires
Where do you live, Sri Lanka?
A set of 30,000 mile guaranteed tires is less than $150 here. 50,000 mile tires are under $200 for a set of 4 as long as you don't want mud tires or Pirellis.
That's a single shift at a burger joint. If you think everyone in the industrialized world struggles to afford that, you must surround yourself with people who are HORRIBLE with money.
>>51482225
>harbor freight
I'd be willing to bet that someone other than HF testing it would find it's more like 60% efficient. HF sells shit.
>>51482229
U.s. a set here is about 500 to 600. Hell, its about 100 a tire and about 25 to install each.
>>51482091
>Your math is jacked. It will be about 300w at 12volts for about 8 hours a day at most which is 24kw a day at 12v. Convert to 120v for u.s. and its roughly 2.1kw a day with loss for inversion. x30 days is 63kw out of the 1500 needed by your math. You need 25 panela if you live in a nice sunny area. If not, double it. Then add the inverter (5k), mounting(3k), and grid tie in (8 to 15k).
You're confusing me here m90. The solar panels I used as an example are pic related. They have open circuit voltage of ~40.
Also these solar panels are going to be put in series so 8 of these even at half load would generate at least 160 volts.
>>51482229
>kids
>credit card debt
>student loan
>mortgage
>car loan
>phone bill
>telecom
>some sort of entertainment
>gasoline
>water
>power
>heat
>>51482225
>up to 87% efficiency
>up to
Nigga there's no way in fuck that runs at 87% efficiency 24/7.
>>51481887
>can't afford a 10 yearly replacement part that cost <100 for all 4 piece.
>>51482225
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
>>51482175
>97% dc to ac
no fucking way
even converters with 15% loss are like 5k anything better and price skyrockets.
>>51482225
if you think that thing is even 70% eff your high off your ass. real eff costs real fucking money.
also that thing would burn the fuck out after a few days. it is not made to run forever despite the name.
>>51482266
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Douglas-Performance-GT-H-Tire-185-60R14-87H/1819269
>$39 per tire
>$156 for 4
>$12 per tire to install and balance
>out the door for $204+tax
There is a walmart in basically every town over 30,000 people in the US.
Either you are the worst person in the world with money, a fucking auto snob that has to go to somewhere that tips their trillby at you before rotating your tires, or you're just retarded.
>>51482274
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXzuYqSIyE
>Xantrex XPower 1500 watt
>$170
Some random youtube guy testing efficiency
"Optimal efficiency rating 90%"
Efficiency ratings are bit flaky, 90% becomes 75% or so.
>>51482091
Okay, so youre still talking dc voltage. It has to be inverted to ac voltage. Ive looked into when i lived in indiana, wind was better there. It was about 20k for my 4br 1600sf house there. That was for a net zero system. I made what i used. That saved me 120 a month in power. Thats 2400 a year, wld take me about 8 years to break even if i had zero issues which required repair. Im in seattle now. Winter makes solar virtually unacceptable here. Virtually no light from oct/nov to apr/may due to axis tilt and rainy season. As is the case for prob 70% of u.s. residents due to living location on planet. In indiana wind is big. Putting up wind farms in the corn fields like crazy. No worry about bugging people as there are no people around. And as for birds: it bugs the canadian geese and starlings? Good! They cause more damage every year and cause more accidents... and the geese? They need a hunting season and get them off protection. Evil little bastards! !! Ive seen more people hurt by them than bears and sharks.
>>51477350
Yeah, by me a Nissan leaf is $200 /month lease
Even poor people can afford that
>>51482357
he is right, geese are dicks. fuck em.
>>51482272
>kids
Feeding a single teenager or baby for a single week costs more than a set of 4 tires installed.
>credit card debt
Only a literal retard has it.
>student loan
Wow you must have failed at life if you have kids+cc debt+student loan and aren't making 300% what the student loan payment is MINIMUM.
>mortgage
Should be no more than 1/3 of your total monthly income and if you borrowed money from someone who let it be more than 1/3 of your total monthly income you got literally scammed.
>car loan
Should be no more than 1/8th of your total monthly income. If it is and you aren't unemployed you bought too much car and it's your own fault
>phone bill
Should be less than $100 a month, which is still 15-30x what a set of tires costs when amortized into a monthly cost
>telecom
Ditch cable, save $200 a month. There's never anything good on, and if you like trash TV you can get it free on your $30-50/mo internet.
>some sort of entertainment
You cannot go to a professional sporting event for the cost of a set of new tires once you include gas, parking, and a single beer.
>water
Should be less than $30 a month unless you have a dozen women in your house. I pay $17 a month, the minimum, because I never use enough to actually get charged for water. It's literally 100% fees.
>power
If you're spending more than $200 a month on electricity, fucking turn something off a few hours a day.
>heat
Shouldn't even be a separate category since 88% of America has electric furnaces now.
>>51482343
That's still amazing as fuck. 8 300 watt solar panels generating electricity at full blast would produce 1,800 watts of raw ac power each fucking hour even at 75% efficiency. Holy shit.
>>51482321
Yea, for a wee little bicycle tire! The cheapest ive found for my truck is 100 each. Im not driving a smart car. I drive something that actually protects my kids from the douchebags who think streets are their personal drag strips. Wife just got creamed 2 weeks ago by one of these ass nuggets who ran a stop sign. Tucks a loss, but no scratches on my family. Ass nugget got popped pretty good by air bag. I lost no sleep. Yes, i pay about 40 more a month in fuel, but it was worth it.
botnet in wheels
>>51482387
Assuming single room apartment that costs $700/m (includes w/s/g).
$100/m food spendings
$100/m on car insurance
$60/m on gas
$60/m on electricity/heat
$30/m on internet
Thats $1050+$200/m for 1250.
That person would need to make $11/h and work 40 hours per week and 4 weeks per month to meet this quota.
This is the absolute essentials and the person would be left with couple dollars in savings, assuming perfect conditions and no spending.
>>51482423
Okay?
I drive a 300C AWD. Takes 225/60/18's. Tires usually cost more than my wife's Tacoma because they're wider by a lot.
I can get 50,000 mile Hankooks for $102 each or if I wanna cheap out I can get Bridgestones for about $82 each.
>>51482419
On average it would be more like 1,500 watts for the 12 hours there is sun assuming you live in a sunny place.
Still that's almost 600 kW a month which is still pretty cash.
>>51482419
and the panels are probably less than 20% efficient themselves.
you got 80% loss on the pannel then 40 on the wires and dc -> conversion then another 20 on a lot of your appliances for the ac -> dc conversion inside the appliance and its all going to run stove that makes heat at 70% loss.
from the sun thats 99.97% loss.
coal is like 65% loss, not bad.
>>51482419
>each fucking hour
>solar
lel
>>51482546
elaborate
>>51482560
Solar don't work at night, Jamal.
>>51482510
That sounds like a normal amount of working
Ffs I work 44 hr/week and last year I took no sick days and only 1 week vacation time
Plus 11/hr isn't too unheard of for lower paying jobs
I mean in my company the lowest paid employee is an intern and he us r paid 12/hr
>>51482533
Except over a 1-year average literally nowhere in the US receives 12 hours of daylight, much less sun.
Once you get above Texas/Florida panhandle you're looking at about 7 hours of sun. Get above Cairo, IL and that drops to about 5.8 hours of sun averaged across the whole year.
The national average of sunshine per day per year is less than 9. Let's use 9 as an example. 9*1.5kw/h=13.5kw/h/d*365=4927.5kW/h per year.
Considering the average home uses about 1100kW/h per month...you've got a little over 4 months of electricity out of your $10,000+ system.
>>51482411
So with your math, student loan and mortgage is 2/3 income. That leaves 500 a month for kids, phone, water, power, insurances, food, and gas. Im taking your advice and ditching tv, credit cards, entertainment, and heat. Water where i live also includes trash. My family of four showering everyother day and handwashing dishes, while watching clothing worn to limit washer usage pays 125 a month. 20 for water, 20 for sewer, 35 for storm sewer, and 50 for trash. No option is given to not pay the rest, by law. Phone is 150 bc i have 2 kids and a wife. 4 phones. Power is 80 bc i really watch its usage. Again no dishwasher, watch clothes washer/dryer use, cfl bulbs, led tv. Car insurance for 2 cars and medical insurance for me is about 250 a month bc i have a great company that pays 90% of the medical insurance bill. Right there im over your budget and i havent got to food and kids yet. Yes, i make over the government minimum for help, so were screwed there. If i dont make it, they dont get it. No my wife doesnt work. With 2 kids in 5th and 6th grades and schools not wanting to go a week without starting late or getting out early and the odd times for sports, etc, the extra cost of gas and meals, and her having no formal education - the job she would get would just offset the expense of child care, lunches, gas, etc. Not to mwntion if one of us gets sick, were still responsible for 20% copay. So yea.. i make 95k a year. We own both our vehicles, but our 'play money' after bills and living is still only about a hundred a week. Hardly enough for a new car or extra money for luxury items.
>>51482567
Actually they do albeit generate less than 40 watts per panel.
You still get 12 hours of sunlight for the panels to convert into electricity. That's a lot of fucking time for generating 1,400-1,800 watts each hour.
>>51482510
>$100/m car insurance
The fuck? Do you have 12 DUI's and drive a Lingenfelter vette?
I drive a luxury sports car according to my insurance company and I pay less than $600 a year, AND I have 3 tickets that are less than 7 years old. That's also full coverage, not state-minimum.
>>51482567
>>51482546
He said 'each hour'. Not 'every hour'. Retard
>>51482622
Nope, 28 year old and no DUI or arrest or anything. Cheapest is $100/m. I've seen some people around here get charged $200-300/m with no prior driving records.
>>51482622
Where the hell do you live? Syria? I have 2 10yo vehicles, full coverage, zero accidents, zero tickets, and mine is 100 a month, best i cld find. Please tell me your company!!!
>>51482605
>20 for water, 20 for sewer, 35 for storm sewer, and 50 for trash.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
I pay $17/mo for combined water, sewer, and storm sewer and an additional $12 for trash and $4 for yard debris haul-away (which is optional).
I run the dishwasher every day, do 5-6 loads of laundry a week, shower 3x a day, and have a wife and 1 teenage son who also shower 1-2x a day each. I don't even come close to meeting the max water usage before they start charging me per gallon.
>>51481664
God, I fucking hate Europeans.
>>51482652
St. Louis.
USAA for insurance, which is US-mil-and-family only, but Geico is usually a couple bucks a month cheaper here (though their customer service is much worse).
I pay $277.93 every 6 months, and yes I get a bit of a discount for having it set up that way.
>>51482663
Seattle suburb here.. i miss indiana for the cost of living. I miss your costs! Lol! I used to pay about 100 a month for power, trash,water, and sewer for a 4br 1600sf house with dishwasher, washer dryer.. the works. I got seriously shell shocked when i moved here how outragious everything is from food, to power, water, even insurance is about double. Its sad.
>>51482676
Thats who i am with. Well. Shit. Lol. Mine must be due to location.. oh look.. he lives in seattle, quick - rape him.
>>51482676
dude I'm in Ontario and I pay 210 monthly...
granted the coverage is much different in dollar amounts and such.
>>51482652
Moreover, that's for a 2007 300C AWD (luxury sports car, guess having a V8 in a luxury car means it's also a sports car despite weighing more than 2 tons).
My wife's 2010 Tacoma, which doesn't have comprehensive, we pay $134.something every 6 months for. My son's too young to drive yet.
>>51482618
truth is you'll almost never be getting peak output.
that output only happens for about an hour in the summer when the sun is at it's brightest. the morning and evening light will provide dismal amounts of power.
light cloud cover totally ruins output too. this is a huge issue almost everywhere.
and if you don't take the time to wash them off every now and again the losses due shit on the panels will be high.
>>51482701
>300C
>luxury sports car
topkek
>>51482699
What did you tell them you drive in a year?
I told them 8,000 miles per year, which I've averaged over the life of the car even though now I'm in STL it's more like 11,000mi/yr. If you told them significantly more than that it'll raise the price (I think the price break is 12kmi/yr but not sure).
It was about 40% higher when I was out at Ft. Bragg, but that's mainly because of the Fayetteville 500 known as Yadkin Rd (despite a town of officially ~20,000 people it had more car accidents than the entirety of Mecklenburg Co/Charlotte metro).
>>51477304
Double windows count as insulation
>>51480728
>tfw dodge dakota @ 170k
>bought it two years ago for 2500
>put 1k into it since then
>lasted longer than my jeep
>>51482585
Are you allowed to make a solar farm in your backyard? Because if so then I might be interested in hooking up 16 300 watt solar panels together and sell electricity since net metering is mandated in my state.
Those lg panels would only cost me around $6,400 which is something I could save up for. Throw in a $600 for an okay ac to dc inverter and I'll be all set.
>>51482747
I only drive about 6k per year. I live about 5 miles from work here. I lived 35 miles back in indiana. I set it up for as little cost as i cld. With exception of full coverage.
>>51482775
in america you can. where do you live
>>51482775
In the u.s. there is a law that requires utilities to purchase net power from you, but i do remember there is a limit to what they are required to buy back. Most wont go over it due to them being able to create power cheaper than what they are required to buy it from you for. Its not much more than you actually use, i want to say like maybe 3 to 5%, but please dont quote me. Its been about 4 years since i researched it heavy.
>>51482775
Depends on municipality.
Totally not worth it here, we get 60% of retail for sold-back electricity and electricity's only 14c/kWh.
At 7 hours' sunlight (assuming they operate at -peak- efficiency for all 7 hours, which they won't), with a 75% efficient inverter and at 60% of 14c/kWh you'd make a MASSIVE $772.63 per year.
Only take you 8.3 years to pay off the investement, and solar panels will need to be repaired or replaced at least every 10 years.
>>51482822
It's 10% of what you use every day, as metered per day (so if you get a particularly nice day or you're on vacation and not using shit, they're not buying shit regardless of how much you're making), but they're also not required to pay you full retail. Some places do, many don't.
10% of your usage at 60% of what it costs for an entire year...isn't even a single night in a dive bar.
>>51482859
I seemed to remember as something rediculously low. 10% at 60% pay is shit.. yea. Government at work. Thanks for the stats!
>>51482953
Yeah it was one of those feelgood laws that they got pressured into passing by the liberal treehuggers.
It literally does nothing other than make uneducated hippies feel good.
>>51482859
Oh, also not every state has to participate in it. I think 46 do, but not with 100% of their customer base. No state has 100% of customers on it.
Also the power company is allowed to charge you to install the proper meter. Those start at $350, you don't get a choice on which model you get, and can go as high as $1800.
Oh, there's also an extra service fee every year for them to come "inspect" the meter on top of the normal fees if you didn't sell power back.
It's really set up so it's basically impossible to break even (much less make money) doing it.
>>51481664
I have to drive nearly 20 miles just to get to Walmart here in Ameristan a single state is bigger than your countries
>>51477082
>Normal cars cost $100,000
>>51477041
All new technology works like this. Cars themselves used to be like this.
>>51481476
Go ev or petrol/diesel. Never go hybrid.
>>51479963
>$12
no dude it's like less than a dollar
>>51479963
>85 kWh battery only costs like 12$
wat
>>51477350
all those cars are shit doe.
I want a Tesla.
>>51482701
>driving a chrysler
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT
>>51482411
>should
>should
>should
you'd think a board full of failures and misfits of all places would realize that "should" doesn't mean "is"
>>51484455
One would think that a world full of said misfits would realize this... but then who would fill out the butthurt forms bc someone stepped on a feeling?
>>51481814
Proof that Americans are poor as all fuck
>>51479431
You can use same stations where you can heat your motor for charging and those are literally at evert parking slots atleast in northrend europe. Takes some time with only 10 or 16A fuses but if ure at work or at night its fine.
>Buying new stuff to save the enviroment
Seriously, none of you dumb hipsterfags can see the irony in this?
It's not hard to finance the new Tesla that comes out in March. Put down 5k and pay off over 5 years.
>>51477803
>WIndows 10 botnet,
>Logged in to Google botnet
>logged in to Chrome
NSA approves. 1/10
>>51477041
>mummy taught me how the world werks today!!!
>>51477041
You will likely never make up the price premium for a Model S through the fuel savings. Musk has even said this. No one should buy a Tesla to save money.
The same goes for a BMW i8.
Not to mention the plethora of affordable electric vehicles either on the market, or recently announced.
>>51477041
ctrl+f hydrogen
>>51477041
The prices of older ones will eventually fall, and if battery technology improves, the asking price will fall too.
I'm pretty sure I remembered Musk saying that a hefty chunk of the Tesla's price is for the battery
>>51491333
ctrl+ f "how to get hydrogen spending less energy than it releases"
>>51493069
>not understanding physics
>thinking batteries are 100% efficient
>thinking batteries don't add 50% to a vehicle's weight
>thinking batteries don't cost a ton of energy to make
You Tesla shills are pathetic. Hydrogen solves literally all the problems of battery powered vehicles. It's quick to refuel. It doesn't add weight. It doesn't wear out in 5 years. It's not toxic waste.
>>51493590
>literally 2018 -3 era vulgaris
>talking about shit you actually understand more than most anons
>and talking about it in a verifiable way
Fuck you, anon.
>>51493590
It still needs special storage, and you get less miles than an equivalent volume of gas/diesel.
>>51481664
>using public transportation
Have fun running on their schedule while a homeless guy jerks off on the back seat.
>>51478327
How much does it cost in Norway?
>>51482676
Geico wanted to charge me $400 a month for my car vs State Farm which was only $125 for full coverage. I really should go with USAA since my parents are military though.
Hey environment I'm going to get a electric car! Hey environment here you can have my dead Batteries back thanks! God it feels good to drive a electric car. *smokes vape into the air*
>mrw people think electric cars help the enivroment.
>>51484833
No, that is simply proof that we have cities bigger than some Euro countries.
Think about that. A single metro area...larger than an entire country.
Public transportation is simply not a fucking feasible solution in 99.9% of America.
>>51497065
Most of these retards probably believe in man-caused global warming.
>>51477041
>61-84 hours to charge
>battery only good for 4 hours of highway driving (roughly 220 miles)
Yes, I too like to only be able to drive my car for 4 hours once every 3-4 days.
>10-12 hours charge time on 220v
Welp, too bad I live in a country where literally nothing is wired for 220v AC.
>>51497338
It takes 4 hours to fully charge using the home charger. That 61-84hour time is only if you use standard wall outlets.
Tesla's are great if you live in the city, I carpool with my friend to work in his Tesla.
>>51482605
This is pretty much the reason why I don't plan on having kids until I'm in my 30s.
>>51481664
Put 175 miles on my company van today.
Tesla confirmed for being awesome. Get a test drive anons, be honest about just wanting to learn more about the car and they'll get you behind the wheel (a ride-along if you're under 25)
>>51493590
Yes, they add weight evenly along the floorpan, keeping the CoG low
>thinking petrol/diesel and hydrogen don't use lots of electricity for the refinement process.
Hydrogen could be decent for haulage trucks but in cars it's pointless - it's the energy monopoly all over again.
After the Fukushima tsunami, the first cars to get going again were electric ones because they didn't rely on fuel supply-lines which were cut off due to debris.
>>51477041
The model 3 is coming out next year maybe
30-35k USD
>>51497256
That's largely down to land use policies and transportation incentives. Most Americans live in the 20 largest metropolitan areas, and most of those areas have an average population density comparable to European cities with decent public transportation infrastructure. We just refuse to build it, and instead subsidize car-oriented sprawl at a federal level.
I'd cite you a source but 4chan hates links.
>>51477041
>>51480529
>Unless the only thing you do in life is commute to work and get groceries
While I was changing my Google privacy settings, I noticed my GPS history from the past year. It made a note of every "trip" I made outside my normal work commute and weekly trip to the grocery store. In the last 365 days, there were 5 trips. I've been kind of depressed since then.
The upshot is that if I could afford an electric car, it would suit me just fine, and I imagine anyone else who lives a similarly deprived and isolated life.
>>51498430
eventually this will limit the need to drive a vehicle, which will eliminate the need for average people to own their driver's license which will then rid the fucking earth of the bmv or dmv. idc what it is called, because it fucking sucks.
>>51477304
>newer prius' are awesome
The Prius in general is shit. They're so slow and weak that they make other electric cars look good. The Plug-in is awful and the ones that take gas have trouble doing 70 mph on the highway. The Tesla puts any model of any year Prius to shame. Go home, soccer mom.
>>51477041
Why do most eco-friendly cars look awful? The leaf barely fits a 5 foot 9 man, the Prius is a Prius, and Smart cars/Fiats are for disgusting euro trash. Seems like Tesla and Chevy are the only car makers that don't appeal directly to middle aged women.
