Can we have a IT-Job ranking from kernel-dev tier developer down to the hardware enthusiasts pleb?
Power-tier
-----------------
- being employed
Shit tier
------------
- being unemployed
>>47143061
absolute bottom tier: front end html/css pleb, making wordpress themes for a living
>>47143087
>making wordpress themes for a living
Is this even possible? Why would anyone buy this shit?
> God tier
- Kernel devs
> High tier
- Embedded devs (C, Asm...)
- DevOps
- Hardware engineering / electrical engineering
> Midtier
- Backend Webdev (Rails, Python...)
- Java/C++ Enterprise dev
> Low Tier
- Frontend web devs (HTML)
- PHP devs
- Consultants
- Windows sysadmins
> Pleb tier
Hardware repair
>>47143087
While agree that the vast majority of frontend "devs" are all pleb faggots... there is a 5% top notch elite doing good work with responsive CSS, stuff like Bootstrap etc.
Add mobile app dev (android, iOS) to mid tier
>>47143135
>> Pleb tier
>Hardware repair
that feel
Network engineer = mid tier
>>47143135
Just got promoted to SharePoint engineer from a regular Windows Sys admin role. Where the hell do I rank?
>>47143535
Any windows adminstration gig... SQL, Sharepoint, Exchange... whatever... always remains midtier.
>>47143576
beats helpdesk. I'll take it.
>top tier
Clergy
>mid tier
Bourgeoisie
>shit tier
Peasantry
>>47143135
Sounds about right.
>>47143135
you're missing NEETs aka full time FizzBuzzers
>>47143061
>tfw getting a bachelors as an Electronics and Computer Technician
>tfw relegated to pleb tier
>>47143135
I am consultant and get paid better than our devs.
they sit in their in dark stinky offices, and stare on the monitor all day.
I get to go to customers, and fix their shit. I prefer my job.
>>47143193
>Bootstrap
>top notch
>elite
It's just a crutch for idiots. The parts of it that are the most useful can be recreated in about an hour and reused across whatever projects you want. The actual design code ultimately will be replaced by the designer anyway so why even use Bootstrap in the first place?
Also front end is easy as shit. The hardest part is JavaScript, and that's piss easy.
> God tier
- Kernel devs
> High tier
- Elite botnet owners, black market exploit dealers
- Embedded devs (C, Asm...)
- DevOps
- Hardware engineering / electrical engineering
- System level and driver dev
> Midtier
- Network engineers
- Backend Webdev (Rails, Python...)
- Java/C++ Enterprise dev
- Mobile app devs
> Low Tier
- Tech Support
- Frontend web devs (HTML)
- PHP/JavaScript devs
- Consultants
- Windows sysadmins
- Media editing (visual effects, photoshop...)
> Pleb tier
- Hardware repair
--
anything else for god tier?
>>47144412
Whats with penetration testers ?
Its one of the options i think are interesting
>>47144462
"Pentesting" is anything from actual elite (pwn2own) to a total pleb (15year old kiddie that just downloaded Kali Linux)
>>47144479
I meant as an actual job and not doing it privately which includes the 15 year old pleb
>>47144412
You only think frontend and media stuff is low tier because you lack creativity, sperglord.
>>47144624
this
frontend can be difficult as shit if you actually care about the finished product. it's not the HTML/CSS/JS that's difficult, it's the process of creating a design that is perfect for your consumers
Database specialists (aka SQL gurus) can be put in high tier
Out of curiosity, why is devops considered high tier? I'm in a devops position but would much rather be in a pure dev role.
>>47144412
Pleb tier needs to have help desk techies as in, sit in a cubicle and tell people to unplug their router
>>47144412
also god tier should have quantum computer engineer
Here is the ultimate list guys
Average joe tier :
>Microsoft Office, web browsing, general use
Casual tier :
>2D art creation
>Wordpress blogs
>HTML/CSS creating and styling
>ricing
Indian tier :
>web programming (frontend)
>VBA Office macros
>Windows Server administration
>3D rendering
Meh tier :
>web programming (backend)
>basic DBA
>basic data structures knowledge (queues, stacks, tree...)
>basic UNIX knowledge (apt, ls, cd...)
Decent tier :
>software development (Java/C#)
>mobile app development
>advanced DBA
>UNIX family system administration
>basic network administration, basic forensics
Good tier :
>low level programming (C / C++)
>orchestration and administration of large amount of servers
>embedded programming
>fullstack dev (non hipster web shit)
>web pentesting
>basic reverse engineering (basic cracking)
>advanced network administration
Wizard tier :
>kernel module/graphic driver development
>game graphic/physics engine
>raytracers or other low level advanced graphic application
>non pleb pentesting
>parallel programming and advanced optimization theory
>actual reverse engineering (keygen creation, hardened software cracking, unpacking)
Elder wizard tier :
>government grade 0-day exploit discovery (Flash/JVM...)
>cryptographic attack discovery
>compiler theory and development
>whole OS development (terry davis style)
>top tier reverse engineering (complex device rooting/jailbreak)
>>47144688
>creating a design
Where do reverse engineers, security researchers, exploit devs, and the like fit in?
>>47146267
lol,C and C++ are not low llevel languages...C qualifies as a mid level language though.
Assembly is low tier.
>>47146302
whos this fluid druid?
>>47146343
this is a work tier list not languages
>>47143110
Ironically it turns out that the majority of freelancing web development is just setting up wordpress for people.
>>47143135
>DevOps
>>47143135
I'm a low tier and a high tier dev at the same time and almost all of my coworkers at work are god tier devs.
>inb4 shodan pls
>>47146267
Wizard tier reporting in!
>not finding your own 0days
Hoping to be a game programmer (graphics/physics/gameplay or whatever, as long as it's fun) after I get my MSc.
Hopefully it'll be great tier.
Vulnerability analyst/exploit dev here. Kernel mode and user mode. Elder wizard tier according to >>47146267.
I've done most of the shit on these lists from hardware support, helpdesk, IT, frontend dev, backend dev, enterprise application development, and device driver programming. We all have to start somewhere.
Don't let some nerd tell you that you aren't wonderful. You are wonderful anon, all of you. Keep working hard.
>>47146571
>>47146666
I'm really interested in this kind of stuff. Been reading Hacking: Art of Exploitation and watching OpenSecurityTraining vids, but so far it's pretty passive learning. What do you guys suggest for hands-on learning? I imagine I'm not going to get very far as a newbie just popping open a random program in a debugger and looking around.
Also, what are some good places to go for technical info on recently discovered exploits? I want to see how the big boys do it.
>>47146768
Go on shodan and poke random things. Once you find something interesting see if you can find any obvious exploits. If not then try to find the device firmware and binwalk it. Spend a bunch of time reverse engineering it and try to get a root shell.
>>47146768
I posted this in a thread last night with very few responses, I'm just going to pasta it in this thread.
Assuming you want to be able to find vulnerabilities in modern computer systems and exercise them to gain native code execution:
You need to become very well versed in how computers and operating systems actually work. You need to know how code gets executed, how programs/libraries are loaded, how the operating system manages threads and memory, and many many other things. You will also need to become very proficient at reverse engineering compiled binaries.
I didn't start out with the goal of becoming a "hacker". I just started out programming in C. Then I started to see the kinds of things that happened when my programs were not written properly. As I did more and more research, I found out that people were leveraging the sensitivities of native code execution to exploit undefined behavior. From there on out I changed my way of thinking. I always look at how things work and what assumptions systems make, and how I might be able to subvert those systems based on their assumptions. I have been doing this for about 18 years now, and while I didn't go to college, I spent most of this time studying. Knowing the ins and outs of memory managers, calling conventions, kernel security mechanism, memory protection, thread scheduling, heap layout and tons of other things allows one to manipulate those systems.
There isn't a lot of information out there that is any good. There used to be back in the 90s, but a lot of that is gone now. You have to learn for yourself. One good tutorial that is still around however is Lena's reversing tutorial. Thats a good start for reversing. Also, despite its corny ass name, "hacking the art of exploitation" is a decent book. What you really need though is motivation. Chances are, if you are not motivated to figure it out for yourself, you'll never succeed.
>>47146885
Oh also, for examples search for PoC (proof of concept) code for CVEs, and then try and understand how/why it works. exploitdb has a lot of PoC code, but the shit on there isn't as complex/interesting.
The way the "big boys" do it is via fuzzing and reverse engineering.
>>47143535
>sharepoint engineer
>engineer
Why did they have to devalue the word engineer so much in the English language?
Everyone's a fucking engineer.
>inb4 shitposting engineer
>>47143193
You mean the guys who make frameworks? Yeah, those are pretty awesome but that actually requires skill. It's not easy creating a well designed framework.
>>47146828
>>47146885
>>47146934
Cool, thanks.
>>47146981
People with engineer in their title get paid more for the same work because it sounds more important.
>>47143082
Very true. Do you like your job? Then it is high tier.
>>47146267
Indian tier :
>Kernel devs on xda
So I like trouble shoot but I don't want to be doing thing too difficult, essentially I want to fix problems in a company environment that average retards cause. I was looking into a system administrators but in my research I have found two conflicting points.
Here and some other places goggling it is essentially describe as a somewhat tech literate neet who sits around on his ass all day waiting for problems to arise, some anon here said his days were just doing his own coding and then he would answer tickets.
Goggling around I found guys saying it was a living hell, 12 hours of stupid people constantly dragging you off to fix their problems and in the end you gets nothing done except become a caffeine addict.
Other than I was considering becoming a desktop analysis.
>>47146828
>>47146885
>>47146934
Also interested in this. Will be graduating CS soon and I really like the security side (all kinds of). Did some course on security, played some wargames and been joining in some CTFs which seems a great way of getting some hands-on experience.
What are entry level jobs (with Master degree in CS engineering) in security should I be looking for. Or any I should certainly avoid?
>>47146768
My advice would also be: Play some wargames.
overthewire.org
smashthestack.org
and many others offer security challenges in all kinds of ways. And if you played some and like it have a look at upcoming CTFs.
See https://ctftime.org/ctfs
You might have some team in your neighbourhood that regularly joins these which could be a great place to advance your knowledge.
What skills does someone need to learn in order to become an average sysadmin?
EE here.
I love my job.
In my CS course the kid who always mentions info sec (wants to be a hacker) is a complete idiot. Asking my professor retarded questions that can hardly be deciphered when it's a 101 course we're learning friggin python .
Basically, the hackers will either be self proclaimed and retarded or just truly understand what thier doing. It's over my head and I'm not living In some fantasy like most of my classmates are. Sad really
Im joining the airforce in a couple months with the guarenteed job of cyber systems transport. It's basically a low level network engineer. Anyone have any backround info? Is this pleb tier or does it have potential to become wizard tier? I know experience isnt shit without an education so I'm gonna get all my college done paid by the military. What major is best? I've shifted away from comp science because its a sub major of math....and I fucking hate math.
>>47147481
>Im joining the airforce in a couple months with the guarenteed job of cyber systems transport. It's basically a low level network engineer. Anyone have any backround info? Is this pleb tier or does it have potential to become wizard tier? I know experience isnt shit without an education so I'm gonna get all my college done paid by the military. What major is best? I've shifted away from comp science because its a sub major of math....and I fucking hate math.
>I fucking hate math
Yep, you will fail to become anything wizard tier in computers. You will be lucky if you ever get to Decent Tier if you hat math that much.
>>47147268
If you are interested in real security and want to learn crazy shit, work for the gubment or a cleared defense contractor. If that's not your thing, try mandiant, microsoft, fireeye or some other company along those lines.
If I were you, I'd stay out of pentesting, security compliance, or being responsible for implementing secure systems. Implementing secure systems sound fun/interesting, but remember, very few, if any, companies give you carte blanche to do your job. Instead you'll put forth a great plan, just to have it slashed by the CTO or some other piece of shit with a helpdesk level of understanding.
The NSA developmental programs are kick ass. You get a lot of exposure to many different types of security work. Or you could just apply for a regular job. Read the job descriptions though, some of the job titles are vague/unclear, but if you read the actual content, you should be able to get a decent idea.
>>47143135
> Elder god tier
- Semiconductor R&D
- Operating systems research
- AI research
- Crypto
> God tier
- Kernel devs
> High tier
- Embedded devs (C, Asm...)
- DevOps
- Hardware engineering / electrical engineering
> Midtier
- Backend Webdev (Rails, Python...)
- Java/C++ Enterprise dev
> Low Tier
- Frontend web devs (HTML)
- PHP devs
- Consultants
- Windows sysadmins
> Pleb tier
Hardware repair
>>47147481
The AF will make you wizard tier if you want, but you'll need to get that CS degree. They are pushing the cybercom shit really hard right now, so if you get a CS degree and play your cards right, you'll likely end up being embedded at the NSA or some other USCC posting. The AF has a really good relationship with the IC.
>>47147429
What system?
>>47147471
This is something every tech literate student will have to deal with when doing some sort of computer related course. 70% of the year are tech illiterate retards who just about know how to copy and paste and log into facebook, a guy in my year didn't know how to turn a computer on and I quote
>I don't even like computers but I heard it pays good money.
One guy payed my friend 20 euro for Microsoft office because he didn't know how to torrent.
25% of the year will be tech literate and maybe even like computers.
And the last 5% will be those guys who live and breath computers but just need a degree to back them. There is two middle eastern guys in my year who make the rest of us look like dumbshits, one guys spent 8 hours making really really good notes for an up coming exam and gave them to everyone who asked, the guy acted like it was just a normal things, he scores high in all his exams.
The other guys is a bit of an autist but he is really good at programming, he has been doing it for years but again needs the paper to say he can do it, he is always doing his own projects and when ever we get an assignment that takes the rest of weeks he will have it down within two hours.
>>47145579
Every company calls Devops something different. At some companies it's a CI/build engineer. Others it's a sysadmin with config management and monitoring.
It's really a bunch of bullshit. Devops is a culture shift not a job title.
Anyway I'm an systems engineer that is basically an infrastructure developer focusing on automating infrastructure. Not sure where I rank.
>>47147471
Thats pretty much how it goes. Infosec (I fucking hate that word) is a magnet for charlatans. Most of the people I know who are legit didn't learn that shit in school. Some have CS degrees, but they figured out the exploitation themselves.
>>47147656
>>47146267
What about CPU design ? Shoudnt it be Super God Tier level ?
>>47147666
Linux
>>47147666
Temple OS
>>47147625
>If you are interested in real security and want to learn crazy shit, work for the gubment or a cleared defense contractor. If that's not your thing, try mandiant, microsoft, fireeye or some other company along those lines.
Alright thanks for the input.
>If I were you, I'd stay out of pentesting, security compliance, or being responsible for implementing secure systems. Implementing secure systems sound fun/interesting, but remember, very few, if any, companies give you carte blanche to do your job. Instead you'll put forth a great plan, just to have it slashed by the CTO or some other piece of shit with a helpdesk level of understanding.
I know this is a major issue that needs to be addressed. It's much cheaper to weave security in from the beginning than trying to mend broken shit in the end. Currently there is a big gap between security experts and general developers. The latter often have zero security awareness. Read Enterprise Software Security: A confluence of disciplines if you want to know more about it.
>The NSA developmental programs are kick ass. You get a lot of exposure to many different types of security work. Or you could just apply for a regular job. Read the job descriptions though, some of the job titles are vague/unclear, but if you read the actual content, you should be able to get a decent idea.
I'm not an american though so that's not really an option.
>>47146666
Done exploit dev/pentesting and just plain hollering around waving my e-penis at the general internet as a gig too.
And pretty much everything else.
Currently doing data mining and static analysis algorithm dev. Shit makes me want to drink. In a good way, but still.
There's worse things than fucking with exploits (they aren't rare or difficult to find), messing with the codebase of compilers comes to mind.
Also love sepples, wish i could go back to it. There's some funny functional pogromming you can do with templates.
>>47147788
> I'm not an american though so that's not really an option.
Well, there goes that. Chances are though, whichever country you're from has similar positions in their intelligence services/military. If you're from one of the five eye countries (UK, Aus, NZ, Canada) their systems are very similar the US. In fact, some of them even come to work at the NSA for a tour.
I might check out that book sometime. Currently, it (decidedly) isn't too relevant to my job. I've dealt with that issue in person in the past and it wasn't fun. You're right, there is a huge technical disparity between the people writing the applications and those who are tasked with securing them.
Im a db2 dba on linux as well as MSSQL dba. The environment is pretty large, probably 300-400 servers each. Am I a massive pleb?
>>47147820
>There's worse things than fucking with exploits
Yea, there are tons of things worse than writing exploits. I love writing exploits, its a ton of fun, I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to any normal dev job. I've definitely seen some shit tier compiler code.
I actually don't mind sepples either. Kind of annoying to reverse sometimes though, but that's beside the point.
>>47146666
And what i aspire to be within the next 5 years. heh.
>>47147920
haha thats awesome. At least sysadmin isn't boring (except for some cases)? Just kick ass at your job and you'll do well. I know plenty of sysadmins that don't hate their life.
I didn't realize I got sweet sweet stanic quads either, looks like I got that going for me.
Ok thanks for your input, would you reccomend I only do one term (4 years) or stay and do 10~. I feel like 4 years doesnt give me enough time to get my bachelors...and I was planning on using the GI bill to completely pay for my masters once I get out. Also I heard that certifications are the shit if you wanna build a solid resume. What certs are actually worth it...I know there must be some out there that are pleb tier and dont mean shit. Also I'm pretty sure I get top security clearence by default, is that worth anything or no
>>47147918
oh baby will you just say 0x41414141 to my EIP.
But yeah, i'm working on automating your job. Trough a combination of static/dynamic analysis. So far it's looking somewhat plausible.
Of course for complex enough exploits, the chance of just figuring it out by essentially guided luck are rather small.
And then there's the shit only humans could find, like misinterpretations of how things should work.
>>47147970
What skills do you require for a sysadmin?
>>47143135
>Pleb tier
>Hardware repair
I ain't even mad
>>47147970
Yeah gotta get out from under the 100 hour weeks for a while, fuck off and see the world, thats why the sysadmin thing. Pretty much anything with a terminal n ssh will do for that.
also im >>47147993
Static analysis of binaries is fun tough, maybe going to look into a combination of static and dynamic analysis for shitty php crap next. You know, because that's the main cause of breaches. Idiots + php.
>>47147972
If you're responding to >>47147658 I'd recommend you stay in until the AF gives you a TS//SCI (unless you already have one), get you a bachelors, and you do at least one tour through an operational cyber posting. Even if you just do a 6 month tour through the agency, you'll be worth a ton of money. You won't need to fuck around with a masters degree.
The military and NSA don't pay the greatest, but the companies that try to poach you are.
Either stay in until you get hooked up, or bail now, use your GI bill to get a CS degree, and then apply for an NSA development program.
>>47146413
>fluid druid
god damnit
>>47147993
That sounds interesting. There is probably a TON of VA that can be carried out in an automated fashion, which would be awesome. It would be really nice to have security programs that could tell you if there was a vulnerable program on a machine. Those are the kind of vulnerabilities that skids with metasploit are able to take advantage of and steal your credit cards and shit. While unsophisticated they pose the largest economical threat, and it would be awesome to eliminate them. Idiots armed with PHP definitely need someone to look over their shoulder. Would be great to see something that could effectively and reliably find those vulnerabilities before they end up in a password or cc dump.
I've heard of a lot of people doing sysadmin work remotely and being able to bail for a few weeks. Sounds pretty cool, thank god for ssh.
>>47148052
Ok thanks...btw how do you have so much insight on the topic? Are u currently enlisted or are familiar with the field? Im just curious
>>47148174
I've been in some way involved with the field for a number of years, both from a civilian and military perspective.
how much can I make USD a year as a low tier front-end and PHP pleb?
>>47148230
80k+ in the bay area/silicon valley
>>47146267
do you have to have schizophrenia to be like Terry Davis
What? With just HTML, CSS, JS, PHP, & SQL? Guess I should move
>>47146413
Diamond league progamer starcraft 2 zerg.
Kaitlyn
>>47148261
>JS, PHP, & SQL
Fuck I hate this shit, HTML was fun as fuck but fuck everything else above.
>>47148261
Check the cost of living before you do that. 80k isn't shit out there. I mean, you can make it, but its not a fun way to live. Some places pay less though too, I'd say 80 is the median
>>47148261
you really, really shouldn't try to live in the bay area on less than $100k
>>47146666
You glorious bastard, shine on.
>>47143135
Where do game engine devs fit?
>>47148299
I think PHP is really fun, well just the basic shit I know how to do. Javascript is the one the usually gets me frustrated and bored and I just find some Jquery thing when I need it.
>>47147920
I want to be this.
>>47146267
>Compiler theory and development
You should have learned this while getting a CS degree, even if only one or two classes are dedicated to it.
>>47148352
Oh I will, you do the same
>>47143135
I must be infinite tier...
Windows kernel commit access. DevOps (Systems deployment automation), ADDS / Exchange deployment architect, and hardware repair (EMC CX3/4, AX4, VNX specifically)
>>47147920
>>47147999
I've never understood how systems or database admins are required in a company if an experienced developer has to use both the system and the database to learn how to do his job.
Both seem like people who couldn't learn how to program, and would rather be the designated person who does nothing all day.
>>47148456
you are what you choose to be
>>47148643
Most often it is because managing systems is a fulltime job. Developers have to be available to write/maintain code. If they were managing large systems all the time, nothing would get done.
Developers need to know how to write programs effectively to take advantage of the system/database. Managing large systems in another story, and another job.
>>47148333
>earning 100k us dollars
>like 8k a month
>this isn't enough to live comfortably in the land of freedom
Just how high is the standard of living in the US? I'd be happy to earn more than 50k euros a year once I graduate. That'd be more than my working-class parents make combined
>>47148456
>Windows kernel commit access.
Do you develop GUI for Windows? ;^)
>>47148853
>50k euros a year
you couldn't even afford rent and food in the bay area on that salary, after taxes. the cost of living is extremely high in some parts of the US
>>47148643
>19 year old detected
