/BTFO/
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>vegans still in charge of being fucking insane
http://thefitveganginger.blogspot.com
>>37434348
>/BTFO/
lmao take a load off this faggot
Disgusting, she ruined herself with that sjw vegan crap.
>>37434348
What the fuck? She looks like an Auschwitz survivor.
Just another case of a snowflake screaming, "I'm vegan!" but in reality, they're getting sub 800 calories a day in the form of shakes.
She's clearly emaciated and I doubt it's because veganism did that to her.
>>37434348
Is somebody here brave enough to fuck some sense into this skeleton?
>>37434360
>thicc cashier
Nigga thats on the skinny size
canthandlearealwoman.avi
>>37434535
this
>anorexic person uses veganism as a good excuse for a low-cal diet, eating 2 salads a day
>"wew vegans are crazy"
literally fucking retarded people, and I'm not even vegan myself
this is not just veganism. this is veganism executed horribly wrong
>>37434476
>implying
Veganism is a deadly meme. Don't fall for this depopulation agenda.
>>37434348
Man, I feel bad for this chick. She clearly has some kind of eating disorder and she legitimately seems to think she's healthy.
>>37434348
Does anyone have nudes?
>>37434734
Sure, here you go.
>>37434360
amoged?
>she "works out" at PF
>>37434559
I would smash m8 she'll be eating meat before you know it
>>37434360
>thicc
Anyone would look thick next to that ugly skelly
>>37434535
Vegans always look like shit though
>>37434360
>>37434348
THANK YOU HUNGRY SKELETON
>>37434348
He looks better when he did vegan
Every vegan I have met in real life looks like they've got some kind of learning disability.
Like >>37434535 said, 99% of vegans are just doing it for attention and don't know jack shit about their diet and are just chronically malnourished.
>>37434348
Looking good.
>>37434348
>clickbait
Fuck off, OP.
>>37434360
she turned into an ayy lmao
>>37434348
>Becomes vegan
>Eyes turn lighter shade (Lightning cannot account for that much of a visible change, even in the darker photos they are lighter)
>Hair is lighter color as well
>Skeletal
>Skin is pasty and pale even by ginger standards
Vegan, not even once.
>>37434360
Lolwtf is this bitch 12 or is that girl just 7ft?
>>37439645
Shes 19 according to her perfil
i fucking hate vegans but i could learn to love someone as ugly as her
she is ugly in a cute way, imo
saved
As someone pointed out, veganism probably wasnt the cause for her going skelly. But veganism is always the excuse to stay on the shitty path.
>>37439742
>veganism is always the excuse to stay on the shitty path
Confirmed.
>>37440838
Is this shopped? He looks like a fucking bobblehead
>>37440981
He looks like a bobblehead??? Look at the girl in the OP
wtf
it looks like someone copy and pasted a big celebrity's head on a small body
>>37440838
This negroid is fucking hideous. Go hold up a ship in Somalia you filthy fuck.
>>37434348
That's concerning. I was vegan for 12 years and never looked like that. She needs to up her legumes or something. I'm a guy, 5'10", weighed between 150lbs - 165lbs while vegan. I'm not vegan anymore and I weigh 230lbs. ha
>>37440838
Can he even squat 2lmao's?
>>37441059
>'m not vegan anymore and I weigh 230lbs
start cutting fatass
>>37441110
bulk4lyf
>>37441059
>I'm not vegan anymore
Why not.
>>37434348
From qt3.14 redhead to ginger AYY LMAO
Veganism
Not even once.
>>37434476
Also she turned gray, like our favorite green/gray gains.
>>37441129
My wife (vegan since before we met) had to go on a super restrictive diet to figure out if she was having a food allergy. The process lasted nearly a year, and for several months the only vegan protein she would've been able to eat as almonds, which is ridiculous. Since I'm the one who cooks I went vegetarian with her.
>>37434360
What vitamin shoppe is that? I work for the company and may have been there.
>>37441001
So the real question is this: Does being a vegan make your head huge or your body small. Looking at the green goblin makes me think that the latter is correct.
>>37434638
This. Veganism is hard to pull off right. Just like any other diet where you heavily restrict your food intake, you have to be SUPER careful to get all the stuff your body needs. Omnivores can just pretty much relax.
My gf is "vegan" but I pretty much convicted here to go vegetarian because she fucken SUCKS at keeping track of her macros and micros and had all sorts of deficiencies she had to go to the doctor for (too little iodine, too little B12, too little vitamin D, too little iron, etc. etc.). I also convinced here to start eating oysters. Meanwhile I'm full vegan and have never had a single deficiency.
(Not getting into a debate about veganism here, bros, just sharing my own perspective on this, which is that veganism just isn't for everybody.)
>>37441481
How long have you been a vegan? Like full vegan, no cheating and having food from animal sources once in a while.
>>37434348
jesus christ, fuck off, england, with your hideous woman
>>37441504
Hm, lets see - about 3 years I think? Vegetarian before that and transitioned slowly so hard to pinpoint when I started. Just started lifting though, so we'll see if my veganism lasts or if I'll have to switch for the gainz lol
>>37441481
Also
>tfw iodine deficiency fucked up her thyroid gland and she has to be on meds for it probably for the rest of her life
>tfw I had no problems cause I ate kelp
>tfw when she gave me shit for constantly snacking on kelp
>tfw when women...
>>37441526
>about 3 years I think?
Like I thought. People who are raised omnivores/vegetarians and convert to veganism later in life don't experience the serious developmental problems that vegan kids do (brain atrophy, retardation, scurvy, tooth decay, etc).
Your B12 stores are probably still good, but you will have to go to a doctor to get your B12 level sorted out in a few years. You will see your health slowly deteriorate in the long run.
>>37434348
Wow... Totally know her.
>>37440838
he is buff... but also batshittcrazy.
>>37441555
I'm not an idiot. Checking all my levels yearly for B12, iron, zinc, vitamin D, magnesium and calcium. Keeping close check on my daily intake of all of these, and eating plenty on B12 fortified foods in order to cover at least 100% of my daily minimum intake. If I start noticing problems, I'll introduce honey and oysters into my diet - if that doesn't fix it, then I go back to being vegetarian. Health first, gainz second, veganism third.
>>37441129
He stopped being a cuck.
>>37434348
And yes, those are real before/after pictures.
She's very nice, but nobody wanted to tell her how unhealthy she looked. She'd say things like "I have a fat allergy" and people would just stare blankly back at her.
>>37441604
If those are the only deficiencies you're testing for that isn't a complete list.
here is an example off the top of my head:
>Taurine occurs naturally in fish and meat. The mean daily intake from omnivore diets was determined to be around 58 mg (range from 9 to 372 mg) and to be low or negligible from a strict vegan diet. In another study, taurine intake was estimated to be generally less than 200 mg/day, even in individuals eating a high-meat diet. According to another study, taurine consumption was estimated to vary between 40 and 400 mg/day.
>Taurine is essential for cardiovascular function, and development and function of skeletal muscle, the retina, and the central nervous system. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine#Nutritional_significance
>>37441595
Is she an anorexic who is using veganism to make it socially acceptable? Why did she get an eating disorder?
>>37441735
Nope, not complete by any means. But the way they do the tests, they have to take a seperate blood-sample for each thing - so already they're draining me dry, no way I'm having them take more! I have to wait like a week before I can lift again... so I test for the most common ones and those that are the easiest to miss, while making sure to include the stuff I can't test for in my diet. The tests are more there to gauge my overall health; I figure if I do well for the stuff that most vegans miss, that's a decent indicator that I'm doing fine for other stuff too. I'm willing to bet that with the amount of thought and planning I'm putting into this, my micronutrient levels are better than for 95% of all omnivores. And like I said; tests be damned - as soon as I notice problems in practice I switch back.
Taurine is a common ingredient in lots of PWOs anyway, and in brewer's yeast, both of which I consume regularly (and supposedly the body make it's own anyway, but I doubt that's enough), so that's not a problem for my part at least.
Also, I notice a lot of anti-vegans make demands of a vegan diet that they would never make of an omnivore one. If you applied the same demands on an omni diet, to get ALL micros and aminoacids and so forth, I bet you 95% of omnivores would fail. Why is it so important to some people that perfect strangers stop being vegan? Why does it matter to them to the point that they'll spend their time and energy doing reseach to "disprove" veganism?
Don't know. Nobody really confronted her as far as I know. I know she is a figure skater, and figure skating is like ballet as far as promoting a shitty body image for girls. It may not even have anything to do with veganism... The diet may just be an easy excuse to explain simply not eating enough.
It seems to me, that if you need to supplement your diet with vitamins to stay healthy, then your diet is neither 'natural' or 'healthy'.
>>37441547
How do you even get an iodine deficiency when it's added to salt specifically to prevent deficiencies? You'd have to try to not eat it in the modern world.
>>37434348
Jeez she's just distressing to look at
>>37434360
Who is this cashier and why is she perfect?
FRANKFURT
>>37441604
>I'm not an idiot.
The fact that you are willingly risking your health says otherwise. Just look at the amount of complexes and trips to the doctor you have to take.
>If I start noticing problems, I'll introduce honey and oysters into my diet
Do you really have to wait for it? Every next vegan wants to prove they can - be healthy, be morally superior, climb the everest. You will have problems.
>Health first, gainz second, veganism third.
You obsess with your diet. There's no doubt about it. Veganism is your absolutely first.
>>37437657
Meh can't you just leave vegans alone? They are saving the planet and it means less suffering for animals. Why do you have to put down those people? I know that's how human nature is, but in this case you are the one who is doing this for attention.
And don't even bother to come up with some stereotype "crazy vegan" bullshit, i do eat meat but i also understand how it affects the earth and animals.
I first read the link as fit vegan nigger
>>37435018
kek
>>37442052
>lol it says nigger so funneeh xDD
>>37441837
What's her name? Does she have figure skating videos on YouTube?
>>37442027
>hurr durr things die hurr durr im so sad
man the fuck up, suffering and death is part of what you are as a human being
Daily reminder: if you're vegan and you have kids, they will be retards with rotten teeth and rickets. Best case scenario they die to end their suffering.
The brain needs animal fats, and teeth die on carbs alone.
>>37442100
don't be angry tyrone
>>37442027
fuck off
>>37441829
I'm not trying to talk you out of veganism I don't care if you're vegan or not, but you may as well know the risks you're taking. The medical community will in most cases only tell you about the deficiencies which directly kill you and not the ones correlated with higher risk of illness.
>I'm willing to bet that with the amount of thought and planning I'm putting into this, my micronutrient levels are better than for 95% of all omnivores.
All you need to miss to develop serious issues is one micro-nutrient - for example even an uneducated meat-eater will have enough Taurine, and unless a vegan is more educated than the average nutritionist they won't even realise they need to supplement it.
>as soon as I notice problems in practice I switch back
It might be too late by then. I didn't even learn about nutrients like Taurine until I already had fibrotic plaques and abnormal wound healing, and the type I have there is no reliable cure - only reliable prevention, which is eating meat. And I wish I had eaten it - vegans, nutritionists and medical authorities are all handing out information which is not backed up by the evidence. It's hard to believe but look into it.
> I figure if I do well for the stuff that most vegans miss, that's a decent indicator that I'm doing fine for other stuff too.
I understand but health doesn't come all in one piece like that. You can be 99% fit, strong, vital and still develop avoidable conditions.
>>37442110
So what's the problem if i rape your child and prison him until i kill him/her?
>hurr durr things die hurr durr im so sad
Atleast even try m8
So how often would you have to eat meat to get the shit you need? Is once a week enough?
>>37441355
>shoppe
Tis ye olde dispensary of minerale healthalts fellow enthusiast of the humours!
>>37442202
It will vary from person to person, and is something that's even difficult to get an average for because there's so many unknowns in nutrition. There are cultures which eat very little red meat and occasional fish, like Japan, which have high life expectancies, though.
>>37442027
>saving the planet
Farming practices account for only 13% of greenhouse gas emissions, and not the entireity of that 13% is from animals. The energy and transportation sector has a much higher effect on the environment.
>less suffering for animals
Animals suffer all the time, with or without human interference. We eat animal products to survive, why do we have any less of a right to survive than other animals?
If you want to argue that because we're more evolved and can survive without it, why stop at veganism? Farming practices ruin ecological environments and kill billions of animals daily. Why doesn't everyone just start eating Soylent slurry?
>>37441481
How do you feel about
>muh sentient oysters
>>37442268
"Energy and transportation" isn't a sector, it's two. Agriculture has a larger impact than transport, plus is a huge driver of deforestation. I'm not in favour of veganism but come on, don't lie.
>>37442268
> We eat animal products to survive, why do we have any less of a right to survive than other animals?
You can do what you want, its me who wants to be vegan. Do you say that im doing something wrong? I think its just good that there are some people who do more ethical and environment saving choices, no hate needed srsly
And this isn't a religioin for me, i accept hunting for example, and i don't complain if someone drops a piece of meat to my food. I do take multivitamin and few ther supplies (welcome to the year 2016) to be sure, and its not a big deal or a reason i should eat meat again.
>>37440838
>We are the Martians
>The butt ugly Martians
>>37442253
life expectancy isn't everything, there's no sense in living into your 80s if you develop crippling dementia at 70.
It's also possible different ethnicities have different needs - and remember the Japanese have a culture of supplementing too.
>The Japanese drink a lot of nutritional supplement energy drinks, containing royal jelly, ginseng, maka, various vitamins and minerals and their prime effective ingredient: caffine and nicotine. Their effect is I believe, therefore equivalent to the esspresso and cigarette so popular in Italy and France. These drinks are advertised on prime time television, on sale in prime locations even in convenience stores, and can be consumed on the premises of chemists. I think that the Japanese love of energy drinks may be related to the tradition of Eastern medicine and the herbal potions provided by its practioners.
http://www.burogu.com/2010/05/japanese-nutritional-supplement-energy.html
the reason so many vegans are also SJWs is because they're full of self-hatred. They're misanthropes, except they don't have the balls to kill themselves since human existence causes suffering to animals, whether you eat them or not.
The frailty is just due to the stupidity of thinking our guts can fully digest the tiny amount of protein in legumes. They starve themselves essentially.
>>37442387
Atleast post a research about vegans getting zero protein from their protein sources.
>>37442443
I never posted that they get zero. They get insufficient protein because legume protein bio-availability is horrible compared to animal proteins, all you have to do is literally use google to find values. Compare it to egg protein, it's typically around half.
So not only is a lot of it wasted, they aren't getting enough anyway, I highly doubt most vegans even get 50g per day on the plate. They talk bullshit about eating insane amounts of poor protein sources in order to make up the shortfall but it's nonsense which is why they always look malnourished.
As for living longer, this is also nonsense since vegans compare themselves to the average american. Pretty much any random diet that doesn't include fast food will lead to a longer life span than average. What they don't tell you is that people who eat unprocessed diets live just as long and ARE HEALTHIER. Vegans experience a much higher rate of certain illnesses caused by nutritional deficiencies which is why they require far more supplements than someone on say, a paleo diet.
>>37442371
The Japanese are degenerate pedophiles who steal people's moneys and daughters! They dress up in frilly dresses and work factory jobs! Donald Trump will know exactly what to do with them!
>>37434647
>>implying
My parents are lampshades you fucking antisemite
>>37442566
And just to add to my last post, you would think it would be a huge giveaway that a diet is fucking stupid and unnatural *if your gut can't even fucking digest most of it and it requires using synthetic dietary pills to avoid illness* but no, that goes right over a vegan's head.
Arguing with vegans is a lot like arguing with creationists - they start off invoking pseudo-science and rationalisations, but once those are broken down it always comes back to emotional bullshit. They just NEED to believe in jesus, just like vegans NEED to believe that not eating animals is somehow saving them as though they are in a fucking disney movie.
>>37442566
Dude don't talk like you know how every vegan lives, thats stupid. Some vegans have problems yes, but don't talk like its impossible. My parents have been vegans for 15 years, without a problem. I have been a vegan for 8 years (my parents never forced me to be vegan), and i do sports and have no problems. I do take supplements tho, but its not a reason to stop being a vegan.
You get so much protein from lentils, soy, beans quinoa etc. They are cheap and its easy to eat lots of them. I have to eat more ofc because i compete in weightlifting, and i front squat 190kg for 3 reps (i weight 81.5kg), so yeah im very malnourished.
For example soy and lentils are accepted as full protein (they include all amino acids necessary to human), so that's pretty much about being malnourished.
>>37442634
>You get so much protein from lentils
post body in normal lighting pls
>>37442634
did your parents have any normal kids?
>>37442683
Only my legs and back are big desu, nothing special in arms or other "bodybuilding" areas so you would just call my body shit
>>37442728
> nothing special in arms or other "bodybuilding" areas so you would just call my body shit
time to get on a normal diet and beef up then
>>37442728
Do you call yourself normal while posting on 4chan?
>>37442743
Thanks but i really don't need mass in other places right now, i would just have to switch weight class
>>37442634
I doubt you are doing the full depth on front squats
>>37442728
Stop trying to weasel out of it, post cbt
>>37442810
>post cbt
Nah, i think im just going to weasel out of it because the hate is real in 4chan for all vegans, after all we are destroying the planet and causing more suffer for animals
There's no reason to communicate with you guys, because all you want to do is hate and laugh.
Bye
>>37442862
>the hate is real in 4chan for all vegans
>after all we are destroying the planet and causing more suffer for animals
thats right,WE,me and YOU are destroying the planet and making animals suffer.not just the meat eaters.you'll get straight when you realise that.
>>37442862
That's right, gtfo back to plebbit
>>37442634
protein is not the same as fat. what part about the brain needs animal fat to function are you not getting?
>>37434348
that seems like anorexia to me you can retain mass on a vegan diet by upping the fats and proteins
>>37442634
>My parents have been vegans for 15 years, without a problem.
I'm sure there are people who've smoked, or been alcoholics, or eaten nothing but Mcdonalds for 15 years without a problem as well. You have to look at the science and the studies, not individual cases.
>>37443151
>You have to look at the science and the studies, not individual cases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871675
>>37443263
ok, I understand why you might think that's saying veganism is healthy - the reason why it isn't saying that was already said here: >>37442566
>As for living longer, this is also nonsense since vegans compare themselves to the average american. Pretty much any random diet that doesn't include fast food will lead to a longer life span than average. What they don't tell you is that people who eat unprocessed diets live just as long and ARE HEALTHIER. Vegans experience a much higher rate of certain illnesses caused by nutritional deficiencies which is why they require far more supplements than someone on say, a paleo diet.
They talked about living longer specifically but it applies to any health issue.
To make that study an argument for veganism itself (ie. the absence of meat) you'd have to show it's not other aspects which separate vegans from the mainstream population - like eating a wider variety of fruit and vegetables, being interested in health and fitness and being more thoughtful (both of which come before veganism).
The science you need to look at is nutrition - and it has to be the fine details. There are nutritional deficiencies in veganism and unless you're heavily supplementing then there's a risk it will hurt you. Maybe it can be done supplementing but I've never seen a vegan who understands what they need to supplement and the nutritional information which is widely available on the web misses out a lot of the nutrients we need to be healthy. At the end of the day the average internet search is not enough because most of the information out there is wrong.
>>37441001
>>37441001
>>37443397
That reason doesn't apply since the paper in that link doesn't compare vegans to "the average American." It's looking at different diets within a low-risk, health conscious community.
As for nutritional quality,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/
If you eat a vegan diet and don't know what you're doing, you get unhealthy. If you eat an omnivorous diet and don't know what you're doing (which is a lot more common than you imply), you get unhealthy. We have an epidemic of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc, and it's mainly made of people eating omnivorous diets. However you eat, you need to be mindful of what you're eating.
>>37443468
>That reason doesn't apply - it's looking at different diets within a low-risk, health conscious community
Ok, maybe their vegan diets were helping hold off obesity, cardiovascular disease etc. but at what cost? If it's only a small risk I would take it to avoid the other disorders which from my understanding are a higher risk if you're vegan - like nerve disorders.
Even that study says:
>Large randomized intervention trials on the effects of vegetarian diet patterns on neurological and cognitive functions, obesity, diabetes, and other cardiovascular outcomes are warranted to make meaningful recommendations.
and it's the neurological and cognitive functions I expect to show up as suffering under a vegan diet. To me increased statistical risk of obesity isn't enough to make it worth taking that risk - I'll watch my intake and exercise instead, same with cardiovascular risk.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/
I can't find what they actually tested for - it looks like it was only a few micro-nutrients like calcium and sodium. Veganism looks fine at that level I grant you, it's the extended list of micro-nutrients you need and almost no-one deals with it.
>If you eat a vegan diet and don't know what you're doing, you get unhealthy
I agree with you but I'll phrase it differently - if you eat a vegan diet and don't follow the easily available guidelines, you get unhealthy very quickly. I agree with that and I don't think that's a reasonable argument to say veganism is inherently unhealthy.
However, I'd add a second statement to that, which is - If you eat a vegan diet and do follow the easily available guidelines, you're at a very high risk (almost certainty) of developing an illness.
So that I'm not making unsubstantiated statements I'll write up some evidence of that.
cont.
preeeeeeetty sure the only diet that has evidence behind it as far as living longer is a calorie restricted diet.
>>37443627
>If it's only a small risk I would take it to avoid the other disorders which from my understanding are a higher risk if you're vegan - like nerve disorders.
Do you have any studies on this? From what I understand, nearly every potential bad thing to do with veganism is solved by taking a B12 supplement or including B12 fortified foods like almond milk, which comes with no downsides like increased risk of developing hypertension, diabetes, cancer, or cardiovascular disease.
>I can't find what they actually tested for
Mostly for adherence to the principles of established healthy eating patterns like the Mediterranean Diet and the Healthy Eating Index, as well as micros. It's not a surprise since vegan diets are naturally low in saturated fat and cholesterol, and if you look at the common components of any accepted healthy dietary pattern, they all revolve around whole grains, vegetables, fruits, beans, and nuts, which are what makes up a vegan diet.
>If you eat a vegan diet and do follow the easily available guidelines, you're at a very high risk (almost certainty) of developing an illness.
I'll wait for your next post to see what evidence you're basing this on
>>37442149
One is an animal, the other is a human being. You fucking psycho, veganism literally made you insane.
>>37440838
I need your strongest potions
>>37441883
>iodine deficiency
By eating "fancy" salts, like seasalt or himalaya salt (whatever the fuck that is) or some other hipster bullshit that doesn't have iodine in it and then not just having kelp.
>>37442010
>risk
I'm going out of my way to prevent risk. There's just no doing right for vegans, is there? Don't give a shit and you're an idiot. Be almost paranoid in your care and you're an idiot.
>doctor trips
It's once a year, so I've taken three so far. Even so I'm overdoing it because I'm new to this. And I did it before I became a vegan, just not as often. I'm just careful and doctors here are either free or cheap anyway.
>wait for problems
You're assuming I will have them and that they are insurmountable. You have no evidence for this, and infact I have empirical evidence from a doctor that I DON'T have single problem. But no, somehow magically I will have problems anyway down the line because reasons. That's it: vegans are wrong per definition, and evidence to the contrary is just dismissed out of hand.
>Veganism is your absolutely first.
Except I told you it isn't. If you aren't willing to take my word when it comes to my life and my choices, then there is no point in us talking. You will just continue to make up whatever fits your pre-existing beliefs and anything I say that contradicts said beliefs will just be ignored.
>>37442144
>higher risk of illness
Hence me doing my own research constantly. I try to correct all flaws as soon as I can. In that I would say I'm doing better than most omnivores. No one can be sure they're eating perfectly, and new research comes up all the time about stuff we need or how bad stuff we eat is, and a lot of it is hype anyway.
>...unless a vegan is more educated...
Which is EXACTLY my point: veganism is HARD. You can't just not eat animals; I mean yeah sure you can do that and survive. But if you want to THRIVE you need to do your homework, and that takes a shitload of time and effort and even so you can never be 100% done. For me personally, it's absolutley worth it and I feel great, but for lots of vegans it's just too much, and they should try to eat some small about of semi-acceptable animal-derived food like oysters or milk from well-treated animals.
>...only reliable prevention, which is eating meat...
Excuse for personal weakness. "Oh, boo-hoo, I have no choice, woe is me I HAVE to eat meat I am powerless to do differently!". Bullshit. You can, as I've stated, eat small amounts of non-meat animal foods like milk, cheese or eggs from well-treated animals. You can eat honey and oysters. How many ex-vegans even TRY doing this, or taking more supplements, before quitting veganism completely? Follow-up to that, how many ex-vegans feel guilt and remorse at having to go back to meat, and how many feel relief that they now have the perfect excuse? Exactly.
>You can be 99% fit, strong, vital and still develop avoidable conditions.'
True, but I don't think veganism increases the risks that much. Especially given the low quality of most meat today how how it's filled with hormones and chemicals that don't belong there, and recent research which shows that excess intake of it can be harmful. I'd say no diet is inherently better than any other and that the risks and benefits about balance each-other out.
>>37443627
>Do you have any studies on this
I haven't read a specific study on increased risk if you're not eating meat and honestly I wouldn't expect there to be one - I think it would be very hard to do a study on that because a lot of these conditions are rare even if you have a deficiency so the rate of occurrence would be too low to study (unlike b12 deficiency which will happen in almost every case, probably because it's essential ie. not produced inside the body).
The reason I think there's a risk is that there are a number of non-essential nutrients (made inside the body) which vegan diets are deficient in compared to omnivorous diets. Vegan authorities and health authorities seem to agree having enough protein is all you need and you won't have any issues synthesising them. I think that's overly optimistic and not something we should realistically rely on.
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/amino
>Taurine is not found in plant foods. Non-vegetarians typically eat 40 - 70 mg of taurine per day (1). Vegans have been shown to have lower blood levels of taurine (3). It is not known whether this compromises health in any way, but very few vegans supplement with taurine, including healthy teenagers who have been vegan from birth.
So you are taking a risk - it's not known if dietary Taurine is something we rely on.
cont.
what the fuck
>>37443908
So you're saying you believe vegans have a disadvantage when it comes to certain diseases, but you're not aware of any studies showing this, and you're not aware of any evidence that support the idea. It's just a hunch you have. Waiting for your next post.
>>37443803
My strongest potion would kill a DRAGON let alone a man. Pff... You can't handle my strongest potion...
>>37443800
Petitio principii, or "begging the question", is the fallacy in which ones assumes that which is to be proven. In any debate regarding th ethics of veganism, the core question is: "Do (non-human) animals have the same, or at least a comparable, right to life as do humans?". Or, put differently, "Is there a great difference in the right to life between (non-human) animals and humans and is so why?"
If one answers these questions with "yes, because they are animals", one is doing nothing else but assuming the answer itself, nameley that being an animal gives one less right to life than does being human. Regardless of whether this is correct or not, a fallacy has been committed in that no proper argument has been given, and the answer has merely been assumed.
A proper response would have to explain WHY the difference exists, i.e. WHAT makes humans more valuable, and what makes animals not only LESS valuable* but have almost no value at all.
[*It is perfectly possible to be vegan and maintain that human life is far more valuable than animal life - the only requirement for a ethical vegan is that one believe that an animal's life is more valuable than the human pleasure derived from eating meat, NOT human life as such. I would call this the most rational vegan stance, and a good test to whether a vegan is somewhat rational or batshit insane.]
>>37443908
from the same link:
>Carnitine is a non-essential amino acid found primarily in animal products. If you are eating enough protein, your body should make what you need. While there is no reason for most vegetarians or vegans to be concerned with carnitine, there have been cases of vegans who do not thrive unless they are taking carnitine supplements.
>A carnitine metabolic problem has been linked to migraines. If you are a vegan who started getting migraines after becoming vegan, you might consider talking to your health professional about carnitine supplementation. The average person consumes 100 - 300 mg of carnitine per day
So the argument is:
>Most have no issue therefore you should not be concerned
that makes no sense at all.
>there have been cases of vegans who suffer without it
which presumably means the body can't be relied on in every case to provide it.
>An issue has been linked, so if you have the issue you should supplement (implying that will solve the issue)
This assumes you can "test" yourself as to whether something makes you deficient, but this doesn't work as many conditions don't leave once they arrive. I assume that would be true in this case (L-carnitine is the same as carnitine as far as I can work out).
>http://www.medford.co.za/a785/L-Carnitine%20Deficiency%20Linked%20to%20Endometrial%20Cancer.aspx
It's also linked to muscle necrosis. Those two connections are from the first page of search results.
>>37444027
>rare genetic disorders exist, therefore veganism isn't viable
Hell, even if you had a rare inibility to produce carnitine, a carnitine pill would be a better option than meat. If there's no evidence that a significant portion of people are harmed by lack of dietary carnitine, why the concern? If anything, dietary carnitine has been shown to be harmful to a significant amount of people
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/11/researchers-find-new-link-between-red-meat-and-heart-disease-video/
>>37443902
>You can, as I've stated, eat small amounts of non-meat animal foods like milk, cheese or eggs from well-treated animals. You can eat honey and oysters.
Not the case for the diseases I contracted, red meat was the recommended source of the nutrients which would have helped me - not oysters, not milk, not honey.
Also this condition I have isn't something I could have tried solutions for. I needed the nutrients before I had the problem, and now that I've started eating meat again it won't leave now that I have them - I may be permanently sick now (some people recover spontaneously and there's some tenuous links for supplements but nothing reliable).
>>37443902
>I don't think veganism increases the risks that much.
It seems to come down to whether you believe the body can be relied on to produce all the non-essential nutrients we need. The evidence seems to be it does in some (even most) cases and not in others. I agree about quality of meat and eating it in excess but excess is up to you and I think high-quality meat is often easy to find if expensive (I buy grass-fed venison, wild rabbit and wild venison whenever I can).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29/long-term-vegetarian-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/
>>37444184
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-the-media-got-a-study-about-vegetarianism-wrong-food-diet-nutrition-vegetarian-colon-cancer-heart-disease
>>37444240
>vice
lmao
>>37444181
>the diseases I contracted
Medical conditions are an exception to any diet, of course. If there really is no option, then there is no option and no use debating it.
And like I said, this seems to be working for me so far but I'm aware that it isn't easy or for everyone, and I'm prepared to jump ship if I causes me problems.
You seem to enjoy high-quality meat anyway.
>>37444144
If it happens to you the statistical insignificance isn't much of a consolation. It's a risk, I'm not saying it's a large risk only that it's a risk and not being presented as such.
The way to test if veganism does raise risk of illness overall would be to test the vegan population for incidence of diseases related to deficiencies. If that can be done and it be shown they have no significantly higher risk then that would say veganism isn't risky. If it was shown they had higher risk then still it wouldn't show veganism was higher risk if many of those vegans were not supplementing etc. so even to do a study you'd need people on standardised diets - you couldn't do it by reviewing statistics.
>>37444144
>genetic disorders
they're mentioning carnitine metabolic problem because a symptom of that is migraines, so as I took it they're suggesting people trying the diet use the appearance of migraines to see if they're deficient - I didn't take it that they were saying metabolic problem is the reason those vegans aren't thriving. They don't have a link to back up that statement about vegans not thriving though so it's up in the air whether they have metabolic issues stopping them producing their own carnitine (as you thought) or if they are suffering from a lack of dietary carnitine (which I think might be the case).
That's an interesting link about carnitine and heart disease - I can't say much more than that without looking into it, though.
>>37444275
>lmaoing at anything after thinking that study said "vegetarian diet mutates dna to give you heart disease"
>>37444351
> If that can be done and it be shown they have no significantly higher risk then that would say veganism isn't risky.
Except that would only apply to vegainism-as-practiced, i.e. the average vegan diet, and not the best possible one. I mean the average omnivore diet is pretty shit too, but doesn't mean that you can't do an omnivore diet in a healthy way. My bet is that vegans would probably fare better than omnivores just because being a vegan requires more time and planning with food on average than just not giving a shit (and this would be true for ANY diet, I think), but still the average vegan diet is IMO far from the ideal.
>>37444359
That's basically what it says. The allele produces synthetic versions of fatty acids which overload your body and result in increased cancer risks.
>>37444240
The vice article sounds like a backpedal.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160329184939.htm
>>37434360
Jesus Christ this looks like a crone's disease patient going on their death walk.
>>37434348
>"all you need to be attractive as a girl is not be fat"
FACE and FRAME is a thing for them too I cringe whenever I hear faggots say this
>>37444445
For one, a vegetarian diet doesn't mutate your genes to do this. The gene in question is just found more commonly in places where people traditionally ate more plant-based diets. You eating a vegetarian diet wouldn't change your genes, it's a naturally selected trait. Naturally selected because the gene increases the ability to synthesize long-chain PUFA from short-chain PUFA, which is a good thing. You're misunderstanding synthetic to mean fake, instead of its normal definition, something that is synthesized from baser parts. EPA and DHA are examples of long-chain PUFA synthesized from short-chain PUFA (ALA).
The fearmongering comes from the hypothesis that, if someone had this gene variant and ate a diet high in omega-6 fatty acids specifically, that this may result in higher levels of arachidonic acid (AA), which could in theory result in higher levels of inflammation, which could in theory result in higher levels of inflammation-related diseases. The American Heart Association has put out a paper calling this theory nonsense, and it's flat-out refuted by the observation that vegetarians have less inflammation, heart disease, and cancer
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/119/6/902.full
>AA is the substrate for the production of a wide variety of eicosanoids (20-carbon AA metabolites). Some are proinflammatory, vasoconstrictive, and/or proaggregatory, such as prostaglandin E2, thromboxane A2, and leukotriene B4. However, others are antiinflammatory/antiaggregatory, such as prostacyclin, lipoxin A4,11 and epoxyeicosatrienoic acids.12 Epoxyeicosatrienoic acids are fatty acid epoxides produced from AA by a cytochrome P450 epoxygenase. Epoxyeicosatrienoic acids also have important vasodilator properties via hyperpolarization and relaxation of vascular smooth muscle cells.
>Importantly, because the production of AA from LA is tightly regulated,14 wide variations in dietary LA (above minimal essential intakes) do not materially alter tissue AA content.
>>37444027
>>37444144
I started supplementing acety-l carnitine without any symptoms of systemic primary carnitine deficiency and I nonetheless noticed my perceptions were brighter, my mind seemed clearer. I developed mild insomnia which is listed as a symptom of having too much so I reduced the dose
Maybe if I'd upped my intake of protein instead my body would have turned that into acetyl-l carnitine like they say and I would've had the same results. Has anyone experienced that with a sudden spike in protein intake?
This also raises the issue that avoiding illness is not the only measure of health or quality of life.
>>37444351
>If it happens to you the statistical insignificance isn't much of a consolation
You could say that about anything though. In this case, there isn't evidence of there being any sort of risk in the majority of people, and the few people that do have this risk can be treated without raising the risk of other things. It's a bit like taking random medications for various problems you almost definitely don't have because you feel like the damage from the side-effects isn't as bad as the potential damage from whatever issue the medication would address, even though there's no evidence-based reason to believe you'd have those issues.
Aside from the carnitine-heart disease link, another not so obscure example of a non-essential nutrient that our bodies normally synthesize causing harm when we consume it, is dietary saturated fat. There are rare genetic conditions where someone's body has difficulty synthesizing saturated fats and that disease can have terrible consequences, but for the vast majority of people, taking in saturated fat that the body didn't produce on its own doesn't solve or prevent any sort of deficiency, it just increases the risk of developing heart disease.
I wouldn't say it's veganism that's solely responsible for this, the girl looks like she has an eating disorder.
>>37444782
If the pill had sugar in it instead, you'd notice the same things
>>37444566
They don't know any real women.
>>37444596
As a chemistry graduate, I'm glad someone has said this.
>>37444814
well, I don't see the risks of eating high-quality red meat in moderation to be high so for me it seems a worthwhile investment.
I assumed from what that vegan site was saying that normal vegans had issues with it, not only the ones with a genetic condition but the only evidence I can find of carnitine deficiency linked to veganism is one about a young boy with a genetic disorder so maybe that's all it is. Anyway this is only a question of whether vegans need to supplement it so it isn't an argument against veganism unless you think supplementing is unhealthy.
>>37444856
>>37444853
So does somebody know if you should supplement it? It doesnt seem to be essential.
Even vegans admit that they're worth the same as a cow. I think it should be legal to eat vegans.
>>37434348
why does veganism attract so many people with mental issues?
>>37445661
supposedly the body produces all you need which makes it by definition a non-essential nutrient but I've seen people talk about getting results from supplementing it. I can't find a study on average people, only one showing results in centenarians (and carnitine deficiency is more of an issue once you're elderly) and one in alcoholics, but I've heard it talked about as a nootropic and that wasn't why I was taking it but I noticed the results. It's a low risk supplement so I recommend trying it out, I saw results immediately.
>>37446033
Eating disorders have a high comorbidity with a lot of other psychiatric disorders (depression, anxiety, bipolar et al.) and I would expect veganism attracts people who have eating disorders.
This article lists some of the studies showing a link of vegetarianism with eating disorders: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201009/eating-disorders-the-dark-side-vegetarianism
>Female college vegetarians are more likely than meat eaters to feel guilty after they eat, be more preoccupied with being thin, and are more likely to use laxatives, extreme exercise, and vomiting to lose weight.
>Teenage and adult vegetarians are four times as likely as omnivores to engage in binge eating.
>Vegetarian adolescents in both Turkey and Australia show greater concern over their appearance and engage in more extreme eating behaviors than meat-eaters.
>Finnish vegetarian women have higher levels of depression and lower levels of self-esteem than non-vegetarians.
>College students who avoid meat are more obsessed with their weight and diet more often than meat eaters. They are also more inclined to agree with the statement, "If given the opportunity to eliminate all my nutritional needs safely and cheaply by taking a pill, I would."
>>37446279
It looks like there's also a link between selflessness and eating disorders as shown here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/erv.984/abstract
>Seventh-grade selflessness scores at initial screening phase predicted ED status determined in clinical interview at the 2-year interval and abnormal eating attitudes at the 4-year interval, above and beyond baseline seventh-grade eating-attitude scores.
so it may be higher selflessness of people with eating disorders which leads them to veganism as well.
>>37434360
I'd fuck her
All this posturing is so embarassing
Why are omnis so obsessed?
