Is veganism actually superior to eating meat?
Every post I've read said that going vegan increased people's gains, health, etc. but as a lifelong vegan I have not seen this.
>Pic related is my body.
I was raised by vegan parents and ate vegan all my life. I don't look or feel healthy. I struggle to bench press 85lbs. Is this is a problem with veganism, or just bad genetics?
>>37376526
How about you remove that black bar? ;)
I call false-flag. A real vegan would be completely in denial about their weakness and poor health.
No protein, no muscles
>>37376526
Finally, someone uaing the black bar properly
Always faggots use a tiny square
>>37376526
Vegans will defend this:
French vegan couple whose baby died of vitamin deficiency after being fed solely on breast milk face jail for child neglect
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371172/French-vegan-couple-face-jail-child-neglect-baby-died-vitamin-deficiency.html
You're weak because you've never exercised before. There are vegan elite strongmen, powerlifters and bodybuilders
>>37376569
Is breast milk really vegan though?
>>37376526
That's because being vegan is unhealthy as fuck. Just eat meat faggot.
Why do people like you (vegans) make the black bar so long? we all know it's not even half that length you fucking faggot
>>37376526
You have bigger hips than I do, and I'm grrrl. Please tell me your secret, senpai!
>>37376606
no you are not.
>>37376526
>very post I've read said that going vegan increased people's gains, health
Lol, that might be if you visit only circle jerk vegan forums. In "normal" places, like /fit/, you'll hear exactly the opposite.
>>37376526
You know that humans need vitamins that do not exist in veggies to survive, right ? It's not just calories, proteins, carbs and fat, but since your parents are retarded they probably never told you
>"l-l'm going to s-save the animals :(((("
>>37376583
>vegan elite strongmen, powerlifters and bodybuilders
Yes they got big and strong by eating plants, not because of the steroids they took.
>>37376526
Veganism is a fucking meme that a bunch of hippy Buddhist poo-in-looiests self proclaimed gurus keep tooting about.
Eat some bacon, eggs, red meat, cheese and butter and you'lol stop feeling like trash.
Just mix it in with your vegetables. You don't need much in the way of animal protein. Rice and beans are still god tier though.
No more soy. Seriously.
>>37376526
Veganism is a real big issue. Vegetarianism is a bit not-as-bad.
Either way, you coooould make it healthy if you're taking the right supplements, because your diet is shit. We evolved to eat a little bit of everything, not a lot of a few food types.
>>37376526
It's bullshit.
Veganism is great compared to "the average american diet", i.e. soda, pizza, burgers and chocolate bars.
But compared to a balanced diet with whole foods, some meat, some fish, fresh veggies etc etc, veganism is crap.
>>37378508
>some meat
meat raises your IGF-1 and insulin like a motherfucker .
because animal protein is complete protein, your liver shoots IGF-1 to build stuff (sometimes cancer cells).
>>37376526
>I struggle to bench press 85lbs. Is this is a problem with veganism, or just bad genetics?
This has nothing to do with genetics, unless you are a 12 yo little girl.
No seriously, you need more proteins.
>>37378508
meat cause cancer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlhJU57KUdQ
>>37378613
A vegan diet depletes the liver from iron and B12 stores.
>>37378613
>implying raising your insulin and IGF-1 levels is bad when you want gains
>implying IGF-1 doesn't help you escape manlethood as a kid
>>37378628
>>37378628
Well, then live a long vegan life, but stop mirin other people.
>>37378628
Lecithin found in grains causes autoimmune diseases. Soy causes breast cancer.
>Hips almost as wide as shoulders
>>37378631
>iron
nope
>B12
take a supplement/buy fortified foods.
>>37378632
you don't understand how IGF-1 works, it grows everything not just muscles, even your heart size will grow, it could give you problems.
>>37378628
being alive has the possiblity of cancer
>>37378677
Iron absolutely yes, and B12 from fortified foods is not enough.
Germany registered 20 deaths of infants born from vegan parents in 2015. The babies had both iron and B12 deficiencies, which caused malnutrition and brain atrophy in some babies, while others simply died of malnutrition.
Vegans represent less than 1% of the total population. 20 babies died. Think about it.
>>37378713
>citation needed.
can't pull things out of your ass like that.
>>37376606
No you aren't.
>>37378730
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/kind-verhungert-bewaehrungsstrafen-fuer-veganer-eltern-a-328416.html
http://veganegefahr.myblog.de/veganegefahr/art/10038239/Durfen-Veganer-Kinder-bekommen-Erneut-stirbt-Neugeborenes-durch-vegane-Mutter
>>37378713
:D who do you think are going to believe you without souce faggot??
Keep telling us bullshit...
being a vegan increases dick size by the looks of things
It is from the ZMA
>>37378754
in the medical litterature there is no iron deficiency in vegans who are only deficient in Calcium, B12 and iodine.
B12 is what's causing both adult and kid deaths. it is serious stuff.
we live in a clean environment that's obsessed with sanitary practices. in the wild it will never happen.
also, omnivore babies die all the time. it's the retarded parent's mistake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJP8ybkRVBk
>>37376587
>Is breast milk really vegan though?
Yes? Think about it. If it wasn't vegan then cows wouldn't be herbivores. As long as it's your own mother or another mother who personally offers her milk for to you willingly, it's a-ok.
>>37378754
the ratio is 3.1 baby death for 1000 alive in germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate#UN_Germany
if there is only 20 vegan deaths, that's better than omnivores.
>>37378853
>let's compare all-cause infant mortality in omnivores with diet-related infant death in vegans
shiggy son
>>37378800
>we live in a clean environment that's obsessed with sanitary practices.
>believes in getting B12 from eating their own shit like rodents
>>37378853
What >>37378853 said
You realize that's total deaths, not deaths caused by malnutrition in infants alone, right?
900.000 vegans in Germany (1,1 %) https://vebu.de/veggie-fakten/entwicklung-in-zahlen/anzahl-veganer-und-vegetarier-in-deutschland/
Total Germany's population 80.62 million (2013)
20 vegan babies dead in 2015 is a lot.
>>37378991
>900.000 vegans AND _vegetarians_ in Germany
>>37378968
>>37378991
how does babies less than one year old die ? getting shot or someshit ?
3.1 of babies that are less than one year don't make it in every 1000 newborns.
it is well documented how B12 deficiency cause severe damage to a child, in both vegans and omnivores (40% of the population is B12 deficient) we know this.
iron deficiency doesn't exist in vegans, you pulled it out of your ass.
>like rodents
no, by eating unwached foods if you're in the wild
and by eating fortified food/supplements in civilisation.
>>37378628
> guys check out this vegan circlejerk video that totally proves eating meat gives you cancer
>>37376526
best b8 I've seen in weeks
>>37379069
>how does babies less than one year old die ? getting shot or someshit ? 3.1 of babies that are less than one year don't make it in every 1000 newborns.
Accidents, syndromes, diseases, etc. You're a moron.
>>37379069
>it is well documented how B12 deficiency cause severe damage to a child, in both vegans and omnivores (40% of the population is B12 deficient) we know this.
It's also well documented that 20 babies from vegan parents died due to B12 deficiency in Germany.
>iron deficiency doesn't exist in vegans, you pulled it out of your ass.
Iron is the most common nutrient deficient in vegetarians, and especially in vegans, who don't eat any animal products, the American Academy of Pediatrics' Pediatric Nutrition Handbook says.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129137062&sc=emaf
>>37379069
>no, by eating unwached foods if you're in the wild
Also, this utter non-sense. Humans are poor at absorbing B12 that way. We are not ruminants.
>>37376587
>vegan is unhealthy
actually explain your point you fucking retarded yank. What do you think is unhealthy about not eating burnt animal corpses or animal secretions?
>>37378041
what can you not get without eating a corpse?
>i cant justify killing animals so im gonna appeal to ridicule
>>37378146
> i have no idea what im talking about
Bacon is now a classified carcinogen
all the other stuff contains cholesterol, and in fairly high amounts
>hurr durr blocked arteries is good for u XD
>>37379227
>i cant refute any of the actual scientific evidence so im gonna post a pic of a cartoon frog
I bet you think you are clever as well.
>>37376526
>Is veganism actually superior to eating meat?
In no way.
>Every post I've read said that going vegan increased people's gains, health, etc.
It's all bullshit.
>Pic related is my body.
Yeah, ditto.
>I was raised by vegan parents and ate vegan all my life. I don't look or feel healthy.
Are you surprised? Your parents malnourished you. They destroyed what could have been you by giving you inadequote food. You should sue them and get them locked up.
>>37379399
except it isnt, as you could do that...or if you wanna live in 2016 then have your marmite, soy milk and mock meats
> alot of food is fortified with b12, same with the food the animals eat
>>37379453
> explain how not eating cholesterol and foods directly linked with cancer, diabetes and obesity is superior please
> please tell me how somebody eating a diet rich in fruits and veggies and grains, and avoiding cholesterol is unhealthy please.
> Explain how eating a balanced vegan diet is unhealthy
You wrote fucking nothing.
>murica
>>37379455
>except it isnt, as you could do that...or if you wanna live in 2016 then have your marmite,
No, you idiot. http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?18297-The-myth-about-B12-dirt-and-stools
>same with the food the animals eat
Yawn. Please proceed to post Cobalt B12, which treats cobalt deficiency in cattle and has B12 to help with the absorption of cobalt and has nothing to do with B12 deficiency.
>>37379504
> he actually thinks cows living in factory farms get b12 naturally from grass
> it is not a myth, you can absorb b12 in a natural state, like every other animal...that is not a reputable source.
> millions of vegans are not b12 deficient
>still not explained how marmite and other foods easily available in 216 is not good for b12 levels.
>still not justifying stabbing animals
vegans can be as healthy or unhealthy as you want. You can eat like shit or be mindful and eat healthy foods.
/thread
>>37379526
>>37379576
BTFO. These posts are reductive to bro-science tier stuff. You're posting nothing of relevance at this point and definitely not proving a vegan diet is superior.
vegan diet still means nothing. avoiding animal protein can definitely be more beneficial than hurting but it depends. basics of being vegan and /fit/ is avoiding SOY, wheat, fast food and sweets at all costs. i've seen most of vegans doing exactly this mistake and they were all out of shape. you need to eat TONS of raw, unprocessed fruit (but don't juice it), vegs, greens and some nuts and seeds. if you are craving or need to push for calories eat mashed potatoes with avocado, seasoned rice or some healthier grains.
also if you don't find it disgusting try eating some cooked fish or raw eggs but keep your hands off of dairy. i don't recommend lentils either because they have high amounts of both carbohydrates and protein which makes them hard to digest - farty meheecan syndrome
>>37379594
what?
Im merely pointing out that you can get every nutrient needed without stabbing animals, and that you avoid very harmful things by not eating animal corpses.
>still not justifying stabbing animals
>>37379375
>Accidents, syndromes, diseases
You are missing the point, they are still non healthy babies who died.
Vegans who supplement b12 will have healthier babies than corpse eaters and fish (Mercury) eaters.
>Beef board propaganda gibberich without a linked peer reviewed study
All the studies don't show iron deficiency
Lurk more faggot
Vegetarians can be deficient because dairy reduces iron absorption.
>>37379664
do you know that plants are being basically eaten or cooked alive? i didn't eat meat for 6 years but this "moral" justifying makes no sense. i believe that animals should be only hunted or breeded at home farms and i'd discourage anyone from eating pork for example because pigs are very consciouss so they suffer a lot and it's been proven that it has tremendous impact on the meat. still i can't stand these murder claims. when we reach the point where we can grow animal products or can get energy from other sources like sun or air then your point will be valid but not now.
>>37379444
Go back to Tumblr you smug vegan faggot
>muh cancer prevention
>muh clean diet
>muh supplements
If veganism were actually healthy, you frail retards wouldnt be taking 4 vitamin complexes daily while dying of nutrient deficcienccy.
>>37378628
>eating meat causes cancer
Other foods reduce the chance of cancer
lifting weights reduces the chance of cancer
Thanks, I'll enjoy my meat, keep lifting and enjoy my life while you vegan faggots have to supplement all kinds of minerals and vitamins and look like shit just to squeeze a few more years out of your life that you will spent weak and old because you have no strength.
>>37379908
>>37379949
this
>>37376526
>ate vegan all my life
stopped here. you'd have major developmental disorders if you ate completely vegan your entire life.
shitty bait thread saged and discarded
>>37378075
>any strongman, elite athlete, bodybuilder
Yes they got big from eating anything at all and not all the steroids they took
>>37376567
this
>>37379764
wtf.
Plants cannot suffer, they are of no moral significance. Even IF they did, then how does that justify stabbing animals?
>>37379837
> i cant refute anything so im gonna name call
Nobody has yet justified the animal holocaust. What a surprise
>>37376606
LONDON
O
N
D
O
N
all that soy gave you high estrogen levels sempai.
>Plants cannot suffer, they are of no moral significance
and you started your post with wtf? do your research. none part of what i wrote said anything about justifying. i just pointed out that it's hypocrisy
>>37380811
Plants cannot suffer
How does killing plants justify killing animals?
How is eating non-sentient beings but been against unjustly killing sentient beings make me a hypocrite?
>>37380811
>thinks an organism without a brain or subjective experience of reality is worth moral consideration but animals are not
found the retarded corpse muncher
>>37380863
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq3UuHlPLQU
>>37380850
>>37380863
Hello Tumblrina vegan faggots. Maybe you should just stick to watching Vegan"Gains"" videos instead of spreading your retarded propaganda? Animals are not equivalent to a humans life. Killing a few animals for gainz is perfectly natural.
Fuck off vecunts. Go back to Tumblr!
>>37380850
typical vegan dogmafag. denying evidence and either saying whatever crap to avoid making argument or being too dumb to understand counterarguments. been trying to reason with a lot people like this only to find out that they have own more leather and other animal products than my whole family together
>>37380910
How does that show sentience? How does that justify stabbing animals?
>>37380920
> i never said animals life is equal to human life
>appeal to nature fallacy
> ad hom fallacy
> appeal to ridicule
> still not justifying the act of killing animals
How dumb are you?
>>37380863
>pic
Yeah, explain yourself. The killing won't stop, so what makes the difference?
>>37380921
I wont ever deny evidence.... give me evidence that plants are SENTIENT and have a subjective experience of reality and i will take it into consideration....
>the irony of a corpse muncher telling a vegan that they ignore evidence
>>37380936
you not keeping slaves will not mean everybody does not keep slaves so whats the difference?
>>37379430
>Bacon is now a classified carcinogen
so is going out in the sun
>all the other stuff contains cholesterol, and in fairly high amounts
he fell for the cholesterol is bad meme
>>37380932
>fallacy fallacy
How dumb are you to still keep parroting this Tumblrina vegan shit? I'm telling you. To. Go. Back. To. Tumblr. You are not special. You're not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else. Now shut the fuck up.
>>37380959
>the lipid hypothesis is a meme
>over 100 years of research is a meme
> everything gives u cancer nowadays son!!!!1111
>>37380950
This doesn't even make sense.
>>37380971
Because if you are going to debate then you need to know using logical fallacies is a terrible thing to do.
It provides nothing of substance, derails topics and in any respected debate would make you look stupid.
You have not refutted any of my points, you debate like a SJW,,..maybe you need to go back to tumblr...
>>37380973
Dietary cholesterol does not affect blood cholesterol negatively you stupid fuck. Your body naturally produces cholesterol. When you eat food that has cholesterol, your body produces less cholesterol. You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>37379469
>explain how not eating cholesterol and foods directly linked with cancer, diabetes and obesity is superior please
you fell for the cholesterol is bad meme. and those foods aren't directly linked with cancer, diabetes and obesity. a high caloric intake and sedentary behaviour is. you can get obese from eating too much fruit
>please tell me how somebody eating a diet rich in fruits and veggies and grains, and avoiding cholesterol is unhealthy please.
say goodbye to your hormonal and bile acid production>>37379469
>Explain how eating a balanced vegan diet is unhealthy
it's not unhealthy for the body. but it produces militant, self righteous faggots like you so it's pretty bad for the mind
>>37380989
Meanwhile you're using the fallacy fallacy. Shove a Hi-Point up your asshole and pull the trigger, because you can't become any more of a retarded faggot than you already are.
veganism is stupid. it produces self righteous holier than thou idiots who think that they're going to somehow save the planet when in actuality eating vegan will put just as much stress on the environment as eating meat and isn't anywhere near as sustainable as they claim
>>37380941
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=study+on+plant+sentience
here you go vegan master race. i had few dmt experiences and most of the people that had, know that they were communicating with the spirit of the plant - banisteriopsis caapi. indigenous south americans call her maestra (teacher) and i've been completely skeptical about it until i experienced it but stay in your vegan comfort zone whatever
>>37380995
except that isnt true. Or are you gonna go against 100 years of research, British and American heart foundation, and the lipid hypothesis?
>>37381009
So are you saying cholesterol does not causing blocks?
So you think eating veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes and getting all nutrients needed means you get hormone inbalances....oooohhhkaaaayy
>>37381014
Pointing out logical fallacies in a debate is not a fallacy, you still have yet to justify stabbing animals.
>>37381034
That provides no evidence for plant sentience. Just intelligence...
Now how about you show me a mechanism of conciousness that can manifest without a brain
Show me a way that 1 can feel pain without a brain, nerve rectors or a nervous system
Show me why plants would have evolved to feel
Show me why if plants could suffer then how would that justify stabbing animals?
would you try to impregnate your girl by fucking her in her belly button? no? then stop arguing with vegans.
>>37376526
Meanwhile, I'm a vegan who has lifted for 2 months on ICF 5x5, and has the following 5 rep maxes:
Squat: 205 lb.
Bench: 155 lb.
Dead: 255 lb.
Barbell Row: 165 lb.
OHP: 90 lb.
I'm 6'1" and 170 pounds, btw. No e-statting either. Veganism shouldn't impact your gains. Protein and calorie intake does. You're weak because you're untrained.
>>37381064
>>37381080
Post a pic of your body then you self-righteous vecunt. Otherwise shut the fuck up and go jerk off to Vegan"Gains" like the special Tumblrina snowflake you are.
99.99999999% chance you look like shit. Prove me wrong.
>>37381139
> not refuting my actual points
>>37381234
You have a shit body and you are in denial ahahahahhahaha
Go parrot your veganshit on Tumblr you self-righteous faggot hahahahahhahaa
>>37381244
> not refuting my actual points
>>37381139
>Tumblr
>Tumblr
>Tumblr
0/10 trolling
>>37381234
Do you believe a cockroach's life is worth as much as a cow's? Do you believe a cockroach's life is worth as much as a human's? I am not arguing a point here, I'm just curious.
>>37381307
No mate, i dont...any vegan who tells you all life is equal is a naive idealist.
Humans have more capacity to suffer than a cow, like you have more capacity to suffer than a severely disabled child....that des not mean it is justified to cause suffering or kill those who have less capacity to duffer than you!
>>37381331
duffer kekky
obvs meant suffer
>>37381331
I see. Thanks for the reply.
Eating a bit of everything is the best.
Veganism is a fucking dumb cult.
>>37381367
Except it isnt...its just not unjustly killing animals
>>37378267
What is healthy about eggs and dairy and what magical nutrient is in there that you cant get from another source?
>>37376526
Track your macros and micros and improve your diet.
>>37381367
>this balanced diet meme AGAIN
unwitting industry shill
Anybody taking omega 3 supps from algae for EPA/DHA? I didnt get any yet because I thought the prices are ridiculous.
>>37381430
*unjustly* WEW LAD
>>37379444
Leave vegan gainz
The reason why you have no gains is because you have too much estrogen. Seriously, look at your body. It's fucking shaped like a woman's! You're almost hour-glass shaped.
People still reading thread
>vegan asks y he is small
>"diet anon"
>vegan gets angry
>"meat causes cancer "
Struggles to bench 85lbs
>struggles
>85lbs
>>37376526
Dude it's a meme,
vegans either roid or aren't vegan.
I've seen some fucking cut vegans, but i've never met one irl that could outlift me.
If you notice all the vegans that say they are big are internet idles with no way to verify their day to day eating habits.
They are lying like a 16 year old girl lies to her boyfriend about not giving Chad a handy.
>>37385043
>>37384990
shilling this hard>>>>>>37382169
>>37376526
Eat more and track what you eat, otherwise you wont know. You could also get a blood test.
There is literally no macro nor micronutrient that you cant get from plant sources (including b12 & DHA/EPA).
>>37385252
B12 is not present in vegan diet without supplementation, which is not readily available anywhere you can think of.
>>37376526
>Is veganism actually superior to eating meat?
Not really. You can be vegan and healthy, but easily 98% of the vegans aren't because they don't realize that they have to take massive extra care to get all the proper nutrients that humans normally get by being omnivores.
>>37386131
>B12 is not present in vegan diet without supplementation
Not this argument again...only because livestock is supplemented with cheap cyanocobalamin doesn't mean that it is a safe source of b12.
>>37386617
with 'it' I obviously mean meat etc.
>>37386429
it is for the animals
>>37386429
>easily 98% of the vegans aren't
who cares about stupid normies that dont even understand the difference between carbs, fats and proteins?
it is easy, you just have to cook a lot...I eat indian and arabian dishes 24/7 that have easily 40-60g of protein per serving
Gegan Vains if you are actually in this thread stop hiding you faggot.
we are all friends here despite your dietary differences
>>37380520
Cause there is no justification. People keep trying to bring in bullshit philosophy but either way you are making animals suffer at a large scale.
Personally, I'm fine with this since meat tastes good and I need the nutrients from it. But don't try to pretend you're not contributing to animal suffering
>>37376583
>vegan elite strongmen, powerlifters
I can think of literally 0
>>37376526
Yes, veganism is fucking terrible for you. Vegetarianism can be done, but veganism is just full retard, especially if you're European and then even moreso if northern european.
>>37376526
you have the pubic hair of an asian woman
>>37387799
Top kek
>>37379406
Found em
>>37386617
>because livestock is supplemented with cheap cyanocobalamin
Cyanocobalamin is a drug, not an over-the-counter supplement. Right off the bat I can tell you don't know what you're talking about. Cyanocobalamin for livestock can only be administered via intravenous injections and needs to be prescribed by a veterinarian. It can also be used to treat B12 deficiency in humans, of course under prescription by a doctor.
B12 is absolutely not present in a vegan diet without supplements.
>>37390361
>B12 is absolutely not present in a vegan diet without supplements.
and drugs let's not forget the drugs
>>37390361
Well, gee, sure is good that 99% of processed vegan foods/drinks are fortified with B12! And almost all cereals in the UK are too.
Unless you live in the third world, it is easy to get plenty of B12 as a vegan without buying B12 pills.
Try lifting
>>37380941
Wew """carnists" fucking recked by vegansidekick once again!
>>37376583
There are no elite vegan strongmen
Shut up
>>37376569
Doesn't the fact that this is an isolated news report tell you that this isn't all too common?
>>37390531
Nope. Humans have reduced B12 absorption, and B12 from animal sources is better absorbed than synthetic B12 from fortified foods. You are probably a recent vegan convert, so you won't notice any symptoms of B12 deficiency now, as you body stores B12 for a while, but you will need to buy supplements in the long run, this is dead sure. Please notice that fortified foods do not prevent of treat B12 deficiency. Just look at OP's situation, he's been raised a vegan.
>>37378508
>Veganism is great compared to "the average american diet", i.e. soda, pizza, burgers and chocolate bars.
>But compared to a balanced diet with whole foods, some meat, some fish, fresh veggies etc etc, veganism is crap.
Even in health-conscious populations, vegans (and vegetarians more broadly) tend to be in better health than omnivores. Two obvious reasons are that the healthy parts of an omnivorous diet are the plant foods in it (vegetables, whole grains, fruits, etc) while animal-sourced foods are recommended to be limited in favor of plant foods because they either directly contribute to poor health outcomes or they do nothing to prevent them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871675
>>37378628
>(w/ Science)
![obesity[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/DQgCSKw.png "obesity[1].png")
>>37386429
>You can be vegan and healthy, but easily 98% of the vegans aren't because they don't realize that they have to take massive extra care to get all the proper nutrients that humans normally get by being omnivores.
You make it sound like eating an omnivorous diet by default will give you perfect nutrition. Look around. Proportionately and absolutely, there are more people fucking up on omnivorous diets than there are on vegan diets, you're just used to seeing it.
>>37390611
A vegan diet is precisely recommended by ZERO public health bodies.
>>37376526
>tfw the animals I eat can bench more than OP can
>>37390630
>there are more people fucking up on omnivorous diets than there are on vegan diets, you're just used to seeing it.
You want to demonize an omnivore diet by linking it to obesity, but vegans can be obese, too:
>http://imgur.com/a/sqy77
>https://veganwhore.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/guilty-of-being-an-obese-vegan/
>>37390611
>>37390630
The thing is, Vegans tend to be very health-conscious, which is why they end up vegan in the first place.
Obviously the average Vegan is probably healthier than the average non-vegan, for one because the average non-vegan (at least in western countries) is an lazy overweight fuck, but also because vegans have to make a conscious decision about what they eat every time, which naturally leads to making "healthier" choices. And being health conscious generally also includes physical activity. Which is huge for health.
So I don't think you can really compare the "average vegan" to the "average non-vegan".
You have to take ALL variables into account. I.E. compare vegans and non-vegans with similar levels of activity, where the only difference is the diet. And here again, compare vegans to someone with a "clean" diet, consisting of mostly fresh and whole foods, not some IIFYM guy who eats pizza and poptarts.
The study you linked defines the different diets like this:
>non-vegetarian: eats meat, fish or poultry more than once per week
>semi-vegetarian: eats meat, fish or poultry between 1/week and 1/month
>pesco-vegetarian: no meat, no poultry, eats fish, eats dairy, eats eggs
>lacto-ovo-vegetarian: no meat, no fish, no poultry, eats dairy, eats eggs
>vegan: no meat, no fish, no poultry, no dairy, no eggs
That tells me literally nothing.
non-veg might as well be fat rednecks who BBQ every day, accompanied by fries, followed by chocolate cake.
semi-vegs might be poor college students who live on mac&cheese or rice and beans.
>>37387752
>muh healthy eggs and dairy
tell me one single nutrient I need that I cant get from other sources
3>>37390601
>Humans have reduced B12 absorption
Yeah no shit, I take 500-1000mcg daily.
>and B12 from animal sources is better absorbed than synthetic B12 from fortified foods
Although I believe that there is no proof of that since b12 is mostly unexplored, I dont really care...
I take methylcobalamin pills (non synthetic) and I am fine after 1.5 years.
>>37390681
People giving diet guidelines to the public are limited by their audience. It's way too bold a move for any organization to say "go 100% vegan, everybody." Guidelines are meant to help people make better choices, not necessarily force everyone to make the best possible choices by cutting out every other option entirely, and since most people eat meat, there must be guidelines for meat eating. Most guidelines for meat are as simple as "limit red/processed meat, stick to lean cuts, and eat no more than 6oz a day"
Kaiser Permanente, a large healthcare organization, have recommend essentially "vegan" diets to people, although they use the smarter term "plant-based diet" since vegan is a bad word to use to describe a diet
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
>>37390718
Don't use the word "demonize," and I didn't say vegans couldn't be obese, but obviously more omnivores are obese. My point is that meat eaters aren't all in amazing shape either. But you'll never see someone's status as an omnivorous eater pointed out when they develop a health problem the way you see people do with vegans.
>>37390729
Expected this. "Vegan diets are so unhealthy. I met a vegan once and he looked frail. All vegans are malnourished and sickly." And then data shows that they're actually significantly healthier than comparable omnivores and suddenly it's "but that's because vegans are actually all super health conscious and meat eaters are all fat slobs"
What I linked there was looking at different diet groups in a population that already lives a decade longer than the rest of the US. It's not the All Star Vegan Globetrotters against random fat redneck strawmen.
>>37390718
Nice anectode
>>37390801
>Expected this. "Vegan diets are so unhealthy. I met a vegan once and he looked frail. All vegans are malnourished and sickly."
can you post body and bench?
>>37390854
Me and my girl
600
If killing animals for food doesn't affect me negatively and actually has benefits, why the fuck should I care about animal lives? In the end it is not your morals that matter, but whether you live or die. Hell ethics were invented for this reason. The reason most of us don't go around killing each other is because it is better for group survival that everybody doesn't have to worry about being stabbed for the $3.50 in their pocket. The reason humans and many other animals have friends and other such social hierarchies originates to the fact that belonging to a group greatly increases your chance of survival. Eating certain animals like dogs will get you a lot of shit from people (as hypocritical as it is) dogs have helped with many tasks over the years like hunting and protection. Thus as long as something doesn't benefit me I have no reason to do it, your feelings be damned.
>>37390866
>If killing animals for food doesn't affect me negatively and actually has benefits,
What an amazing world that would be
>>37390879
Lol ok explain. Please tell me how despite the fact meat has been a dietary staple for thousands of years and diseases of civilization are relatively recent that they are the cause of everything bad.
>>37390888
Because modern investigation has shown that meats can contribute to a wide range of health problems, the most well documented and widely accepted being cardiovascular disease. Fantasies about your rose-tinted version of the past where everyone ate copious amounts of meat and all lived to 100 free of all disease doesn't represent reality.
>>37390902
Modern investigation has also shown that vegetables and legumes can contribute to a wide range of health problems, the most well documented and widely accepted being auto-immune diseases and cancer.
>>37390956
>inb4 source
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115436/
http://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/soy-may-turn-on-genes-linked-to-cancer
>>37390902
Nice strawman bro. It is fact that shit like cardiovascular disease, many cancers, and obesity were MUCH less frequent than they are now when meat was not demonized. It is fact you need B-12 to survive, something which is only found in animal products. It is fact that no societies in history were ever vegan because without supplementation your shitty meme diet would literally kill you. It is fact that there are no controlled trials linking red meat to heart disease and that in observational studies it is often ignored that vegans are more health conscious which MAYBE might be the reason they are healthier than the average meat eater who eats fries and a soda with his burger on a refined white bun. You can say many things about veganism (like it's "morally superior" but honestly who gives a fuck), but you cannot say it is healthier because meat is bad and not because for example a vegan will trade a hot dog for some broccoli or whatever the fuck vegans eat.
hey vegans post your diet for gains. i've seen like 1 guy (beside me when i was experimenting with the diet) who had quite reasonable vegan diet and looked decent. endless stream of vegans i met were dyel unhealthy looking ppl not being able to tell me what are they eating in a single fkin day.
>>37390902
I lift, I do cardio, I eat veggies and fruits, I avoid processed foods and fast food, I rarely drink anything other than water.
Why should I not keep enjoying meat, eggs and dairy?
Just so I can live to 100 and then come back to /fit/ and say "see, I told you so, veganism works. Oh wait, you're all dead already."
>>37390981
Being vegan (or even worse, raw vegan) is literally throwing out 10 thousands of years of evolution. Humans have been eating meat and cooking their food for a very long time, we have evolved to thrive on such a diet. Sure, maybe when we were still basically monkeys we were vegan. But we're not anymore.
What do herbivore animals do? They eat all fucking day. Because that's the only way they get all the nutrients they need.
Cooking and meat-eating have allowed us to cut down eating time to a few minutes daily. Which in turn allowed us to do other things, like invent stuff that made life easier leading up to now where people can shitpost about veganism on a maltese cross-stitching forum.
>>37376526
I dont think your vegan lifestyle is the fault for your dyel body.
I just think being vegan is harder. You can be vegan and strong/muscular, but it will be harder.
Not harder as in, you make less gains. Harder as in, it will be harder to eat the right stuff in the right amoung.
If you are vegan and you want to be built, you have to do it right.
>source
myself. vegan and pretty swole with Steroid-like gains.
>>37379375
Im not a vegan but:
>Iron is the most common nutrient deficient in vegetarians, and especially in vegans
>Iron is the most common nutrient deficient in vegetarians
>vegetarians
m8, there is no difference between a vegetarian and a meat eating diet. Animal protein is animal protein. Animal fats are animal fats. Like literally no difference at all lmao.
Do you think your body cares wether your animal-stuff comes from meat or dairy, eggs? no it doesnt, its the same shit.
>iron deficiency in vegans
yeah whatever, but the vegetarian shit was complete bullsht lmao.
>>37378041
>You know that humans need vitamins that do not exist in veggies to survive, right?
> humans were literally eating fruits for the first 10 million years and only started eating meat 2 million years ago
>>37390981
People in the not so distant past ate meat much, much less frequently than we do now. You had to be filthy rich to afford it even on a semi frequent basis. Meat rots and spoils quickly, couldn't be transported far, and livestock was expensive to keep and maintain compared to crops. If you were a typical peasant like 99% of the world, you were eating an almost strictly vegetarian diet except the occasional meat like once a year for very special occasions when you could afford it, and it wasn't a feast, you were lucky to get anything at all
>>37391212
You realize that humans are literally not the same animal that existed 2 million years ago right? You do know that evolution causes change right?
>>37390984
mine is:
>soy milk with oats, 2 times a day
>potatoes
>a lot of nuts and seeds
>rice
>pasta
>500g of vegetables and fruits thrown into the blender (probably most important part here, thats where i get all my vitamisn from)
Thats it really. Gains are insane, went from skelle to 190 lb, 17"inch gun swoletier.
To be honest, i think i would have made the same gains with meat and dairy. Im not putting my gains in relation to my vegan diet.
I had one guy accusing me of steroids because he thought there is no way to get big as a vegan.
>>37391193
>all vegetarians eat tons of animal products
>meat is exactly the same as eggs and dairy
what the fuck are you even saying?
>>37391234
>>37391212
That is true to some extent i give you that. But the genetical difference to "humans" 5 million years ago is so small i wouldnt say that:
> 10 million years ago "humans" were only able to survive with a vegan diet because their bodys were made for it, while modern human cant.
is true (which i assume you were trying to say).
Also think about it. Dude is saying, eating tons of vegetables and fruits makes you vitamin deficient (that might be the case with protein). First time i hear this lol. My whole life i've been told to eat vegetables to get enough vitamins (just like everyone else) and now this.
Its just grasping for straws, you cant deny that.
>>37390981
> B-12 to survive, something which is only found in animal products
m8, i hope you realize that all animals are fed b-12 supplements.
Without them, this idiotic argument wouldnt even exist.
>>37391272
This might come as a big shock to you but
Some vitamins are found in vegetables and some in meat
B12 is a classic example of a vitamin you'll be deficient in as a vegan
>>37391302
here >>37391291
>>37391302
That's because the soil is so depleted it doesn't have B12 in it anymore. Hence why even livestock needs to be artificially supplemented with it, and hence that's where meat-eaters get their B12 (supplements, still)
>>37391291
1. it's a stupidly bold claim to say that ALL animals are fed b12 supplements
2. where do you think the b12 comes from in the first place
>>37391223
>trying to save face this hard after being BTFO
>If you were a typical peasant like 99% of the world, you were eating an almost strictly vegetarian diet except the occasional meat like once a year for very special occasions when you could afford it, and it wasn't a feast, you were lucky to get anything at all
Which is why the life expectancy of the average peasant from the 12th/13th century was no longer than 35 years. As our diet became richer in nutrients and protein from meat, life expectancy drastically improved and is pushing 80 years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/241864.stm
>>37391452
Most of that terrible life expectancy had little to do with diet and a lot to do with horrific child mortality rates plus high rates of violent death (for men) or death in childbirth (for women).
>>37391469
>horrific child mortality rates
Due to malnutrition and poor sanitary conditions, something that vegans >>37379069 >>37378991 support in order to get B12 "naturally."
>eating poo = B12
>what was even the famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Late_Middle_Ages
http://www.medievality.com/famine.html
>>37391328
It comes from bacteria in the soil you moron
>>37391796
So by this logic, my crops grown in fully organic, well amended living soil will contain more b-12 in theory than store bought shit?
This might explain why as a vegan I've never supplemented b12 or consumed many fortified foods, and been fine.
>>37392770
No because plants do not store B12. There's ongoing research on green algae that might potentially produce/store B12, but nothing of value came out of it yet.
>This might explain why as a vegan I've never supplemented b12 or consumed many fortified foods, and been fine.
B12 supplementation is a must for all vegans. How long have you been a vegan? B12 deficiency may take years to develop because our bodies stores enough of it for a while. If you're really a vegan not supplementing B12 in any way, you will definitely develop B12 deficiency in the near future.
>Contrary to the many rumors, there are no reliable, unfortified plant sources of vitamin B12
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12
Meat is good for you and animals are too dumb not to be treated as food. Get over it vege-shits.
>>37392919
b12 is in meat right
>>37393001
Yes, as well as in dairy.
>>37393040
then i'm off drinking milk and eating chicken
>>37379908
>4 vitamin complexes daily
Being a vegan is like choosing to become chronically diseased.
>>37376526
try lifting before saying x or y doesn't work
i'm not even vegan desu
>>37393054
You're doing it right.
>>37393054
But eat your veggies, too.
>>37393089
mushrooms enough?
>>37393068
just buy fortified soy milk
and it's i bet more than half of you guys fell for the supplement industry meme and take a lot of shit besides food
>>37392919
Yeah problem is that you can't test stuff like green algae on people because you can't keep those locked up for months on end and monitor their diet. So you need to test on animals. But basically only vegans have a vested interest in a natural b12 source, and what vegan would support animal testing no matter how benign?
So fact of the matter is that there ISN'T evidence that we can't get b12 from plants - there just isn't any evidence that we CAN either because there's basically been no research done on the subject. My tip? Why give a shit about being "natural"? Just eat fortified foods and maybe take a vitamin pill. Problem solved. Thinking that natural > artifical is a fallacy, and ignores all the other fortified foods that are for non-vegans as well (like iodine in salt).
>>37376526
You got really nice child-birthing hips
>>37393127
There's plenty of evidence that a plant-based diet doesn't provide any B12. This is highly established, and any serious vegan organization will tell you to take your B12 supplements and drugs.
Summarizing: B12 cannot be obtained from a plant-based diet without supplementation.
Conclusion: B12 cannot be obtained from a plant-based diet without supplementation.
tl;dr: B12 ∉ vegan diet
Oh, and one more thing: B12 cannot be obtained from a plant-based diet without supplementation.
I hope it's clear enough. :^)
>>37390984
This is my standard diet:
Carbs: potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, pasta, bulgur, wheatberries, oats
Protein: beans, peas, legumes, quinoa, tofu/tempeh, hemp-powder for making protein shakes (little to no "fake meat" or soy products!)
Then lots of veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds, etc. for vitamins and minerals.
If I want to bulk, I eat more carbs and stuff with quality calories like peanut-butter and tahini. If I want to go lean I just decrease the carb intake and eat more veggies than fruits ('cause of the sugar).
I also eat lots of the following specifically in order to boost gains and test levels:
broccoli, cashewnuts, hazelnuts, almonds, pecans, Brazil nuts, pistachios, walnuts, chia seeds, flaxseeds,
cabbage, spinach, garlic, cranberries, gooseberries, pomegranates, raw cocoa, coconut milk and coconut oil (a MUST to get that cholesterol!!), maca
>>37391239
Nigga where ur proteins at?
>>37393127
>natural b12 source
>animal testing
What the fuck is this post? Since when testing B12 is harmful to any being?
>>37393292
>all those food items
>none contain B12
Sorry for your lots, vegan anon.
>>37393284
>There's plenty of evidence that a plant-based diet doesn't provide any B12.
This may be a technicality, but there is indeed no evidence that plants can provide B12 - but there is NO evidence that plants CANNOT do so. It's the classical matter of trying to prove a negative: you can't. It's been established that no plant that we've studied carefully so far can provide B12; that does not mean that the one plant that can isn't just around the corner, waiting to be discovered. And like I said there's not that much reseach being done. There's some, sure, but not everything has been tested carefully, in part due to the reasons I brought up. Like, the algea that where mentioned show some promise but there's been like, two studies that I can find, both on animals.
But like I said, it's just a technicality: for all intents and purposes you are right, and vegans MUST take B12 supplements or eat fortified food.
>>37393332
I drink an oat-based 'milk' that's fortified with b12 and gives be 100% DRI in a single glass. I do regular blood-tests and so far the only 'problem' has been a slight EXCESS of magnesium intake: iron, b12, zink, selenium, etc. - all the crap vegans sometimes lack, I had great levels of all of it.
Please don't commit the naturalist fallacy. I am well aware that a vegan diet is impossible to do completely naturally is something that has become possible only recently due to scientific advencements. Why the fuck does this matter?
>>37393310
I mean that in order to test whether or not a particular algea can provide natural B12, you need to test in on animals. I.e. lock a bunch of 'em up and give one group B12 supplements, give another the algea and give the last one nothing and then compare. This is, like I said, benign, and far removed from the horrible tests sometimes done on animals. However, ethical vegans tend to oppose ALL animal testing, especially for trivial matters such as these, because you're still locking animals up and doing tests on them that they can't consent to. Now I'm not saying that's a reasonable stance - personally I'd say it's harmless - but that's how a lot of vegans feel, and hence they would be reluctant to support such reseach. And given that they are pretty much the only people with an incentive to care about natural b12 sources, it tends to mean that kind of reseach isn't done very much. Catfish?
>>37393482
>However, ethical vegans tend to oppose ALL animal testing, especially for trivial matters such as these, because you're still locking animals up and doing tests on them that they can't consent to.
>ethical vegans tend to oppose ALL animal testing
>because you're still locking animals up
>vegans
>locking animals up
Vegan pets. BTFO.
>>37393717
Actually lots of vegans are against having pets. They might be cool with rescue animals (like from a shelter) that you treat well. They would not be OK with doing experiments on animals because some people don't understand what "the naturalist fallacy" is. A the very least it would be pretty controversial in the vegan community. I mean shit I'm vegan and I sometimes can't tell other vegans I eat honey or have a pet bunny because they freak the fuck out. Very few vegans are like that but those that are are LOUD and annoying as fuck.
>>37393814
>>37393717
Oh and making pets eat a vegan diet is indeed controversial AS FUCK in the vegan community, with general consensus being that it's animal abuse and that one should just get a naturally vegan pet if one can't stand feeding one's dog or cat meat (like I got a bunny). Shit anti-vegans say is not always representative of actual vegans - weird, huh?
>>37393814
>Very few vegans are like that but those that are are LOUD and annoying as fuck
Says you :^)
>>37393855
lmao not even giving you shit guys but being a vegan sounds like a fuckload of work and headaches
>>37376559
Damn son I could bench more than that as a little girl in middle school. You are seriously under developed. And I have been a strong meat eater my whole life
>>37390588
No, it just means the news doesn't want to report that kind of stuff and its not part of their agenda. There's lots of fucked up shit that should be on the news but no one ever hears about. Journalism now a days is not about reporting truths, its about spinning and selling the moat outrageous headlines. "Meat causes cancer" is a wildly ridiculously headline and is not reported about properly if you actually look at their studies; but they spin it to make a ridiculous headlines that grabs attention and gets them clickbait
>>37379430
Certain amino acids for one. Our bodies were literally built around using meat, it spurred our evolution. Its like taking a dog and making it vegan, its unnatural, unhealthy, and bad for health
>>37378628
>meat causes cancer
>causes
You do not know how science works.
>>37379444
>whither YouTube video
>claims causal relationship
you don't know Jack shit about science, and there's nothing scientific about that's shitty YouTube video. If you want to provide actually evidence towards your argument, go find the actual full studies listing all their methods, statistics and so on.
>look at science
Bitch you wouldn't know empiricism if it cockslapped you in the mouth
>>37379406
>Eww nature is icky
Great excuse to go vegan. You morons act like animals weren't evolved to rip the flesh off of.other animals and use.it for.sustenance. no matter how "icky" or "gross" you find nature to be, it will not change the facts; were evolved to eat meat and it does a great job at fueling us.
>>37380941
Lol that's the problem. You never deny evidence, even the "evidence " that's reported wrong, aka veganism. If you were smart enough to ask critical questions before becoming a vegan minion you might have known better . There is no evidence to support veganism, just bad journalism
>>37381430
Actually its not killing animals at all, justly or otherwise. Vegans aren't allowed to eat meat because it was killed properly, its an all or nothing cult.
Vegan diets suck because:
>consuming too much soy is bad
>consuming too many nuts are bad
>lack of quality protein sources
>hard to get enough saturated fats, as a result your cholesterol levels will be too low
>hard to get enough b12, retinol, k2
>hard to get enough of the long forms of omega3
>high chance on vitamin d, b1, b6 and b2 deficiency
>high chance on zinc, magnesium, selenium, calcium deficiency
I don't know why people keep creating that false dichotomy; either you are vegan or you only eat burgers/pizza/other trash food. Sure, being vegan is probably better than the average American's diet. However, the fact remains that you are limiting your options. You are purposely excluding a large range of food that humans have historically lived on. A balanced diet which has a focus on plant based foods but also includes meat, dairy and fish will always be superior.
Going vegan will slowly but surely diminish your health.
![maxresdefault[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/nOFyAfK.jpg "maxresdefault[2].jpg")
>>37394178
>were evolved to eat meat and it does a great job at fueling us.
![nick-young-confused-face-300x256[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/LaZReoS.png "nick-young-confused-face-300x256[1].png")
>>37394317
>Vegan diets suck because:
>>hard to get enough saturated fats, as a result your cholesterol levels will be too low
>>37394317
I really don't understand where this fad even started.
Yeah we know eating too much meat is bad, especially red meat.
So, I cut my meat portions down and switched most meats to fish and/or chicken.
I don't get what makes someone make such a drastic change as to say
>i'm going to stop eating meat all together
that's what people with mental disorders do.
Make unreasonable drastic changes.
Just cut back on your meat intake, it's that fucking simple.
>>37394366
It's kind of like how some people cut back on their soda intake while others stop drinking soda altogether.
>>37394391
>Meat is as unhealthy as soda
>>37394337
I really wonder what it's like to be you, I'm curious as to how your mind works.
You see a statement, you obviously have an opposing view, but at the same time you know that you're clueless. I mean deep down, you have to know, right? It would have taken you one minute to google and read up on saturated fats and cholesterol. In that minute you could have learned that there are multiple types of cholesterol and that some types are necessary and even suppress the unhealthy negative types. You could have learned that saturated and monounsaturated fats are not unhealthy and are vital for maintaining cognitive function.
In that one minute, you could have learned and expanded your mind a little.
Instead you posted an overused reaction image on a Gambian train surfing forum.
>>37394519
I'm just wondering why you would list that as a con instead of a pro. Low cholesterol is a good thing, it's what most people try and fail to achieve and often have to take drugs for. This is the main reason we're advised to avoid saturated fats. It's like you've posted "this diet sucks because it's low in sodium, and as a result your blood pressure will be low"
>>37380520
>animal holocaust
>implying animals run all the major banks and the NY times
>implying killing all animals would make the world a better place
>implying the holocaust was real
>implying small amounts of manual labour for white collar jews was horrible
>implying
Fuck off you vegan, jew-loving butthole.
Not sure if this is a false flag or anything, but I'll respond anyway, I've been vegetarian for 15 years and have been hitting the gym for the past 3 months, and I'm already much much bigger than you. You're either not getting enough protein(a vegan diet isn't just a meat-eating diet minus the meat) or you're not pushing yourself at the gym. Don't make excuses.
>>37394696
Found the vegan!
>>37394593
Because the argument is that vegan diets are bad, not that eating like a pig is healthy. You need some saturated fat, being deficient has several negative health consequences. From the perspective of a vegan that is a negative because it is hard to get enough from his diet.
For non vegans this isn't an issue, they can eat just the right amount because they aren't limited in any way. Non vegan doesn't imply you follow the average burgerclap diet.
There are many types of fat and multiple types of cholesterol. Some are bad, some are good. Just use google, read abstracts from papers.
>>37394593
Because the keto may may has been in full swing for quite some time now (especially on this Albanian tuba playing mailing list), so people think saturated fats are perfectly harmless because some blogger said so.
>>37394248
>there is no evidence to support veganism
>american dietetics association is wrong
>cheif of journal of cardiology is wrong
>>37394284
>a movement against killing without justification
hurr durr its a cult
>>37394086
you can every amino acid from plants, and we did not evolve to eat meat or our arteries would not get blocked by eating it.
Except dogs can be vegan. It gets every nutrient needed - that is not unhealthy
>appeal to nature
>>37394748
>You need some saturated fat, being deficient has several negative health consequences
That's not true at all. Your body synthesizes saturated fats where they're needed. There's no such thing as "saturated fat deficiency," the less you eat the better.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=422
There's different types of cholesterol and cholesterol is necessary but you're also mistaking that to mean you want a large amount of cholesterol. Very low levels of cholesterol are required for the functions they perform, much lower than you'd ever be able to get through diet or drugs anyway. What you're describing is actually a benefit of vegan diets.
>>37393944
Being selective and careful about what you eat always is, given what the standard diet is especially in the US. Any attempt to eat more healthy is going against the grain and it can be hard at times.
>>37394337
He's right, though. Too much cholesterol is bad and heavy meat eaters need to worry about it, but a strict vegan diet might contain NO cholesterol at all, which is pretty bad too. This is why vegans need to eat lots of coconut products, 'cause that's basically the only plant source of cholesterol.
>>37395009
>Too much cholesterol is bad and heavy meat eaters need to worry about it, but a strict vegan diet might contain NO cholesterol at all, which is pretty bad too
What's that based on? We were talking about the cholesterol your body produces naturally, which it does whether your diet is 100% saturated fat or 0%. You want that as low as you can get it through diet and exercise.
I'd just like to point out that veganism is NOT a diet: it's an ethical position based on a philosophy of animal rights, which in practice entails avoiding all products of animal suffering as far as possible.
Technically, a poud of sugar chased down with a fifth of vodka is "vegan". A 99.9% plant-based, raw-food diet with a tiiiiny bit of fish sauce sprinkled on a dish once or twice a week is not "vegan". "Vegan" is, nutritionally speaking, an empty statement: it says nothing about the nutrients (or poisons) you get into your system, just from where they where derived. And from where a nutrient is derived is sort of irrelevant from a nutritional stand-point, as long as one gets the correct amount of the right stuff.
Also, read the first paragraph carefully. A lot of vegans get this wrong because they are more interested in feeling like they're better than everyone else than actual philosophy. The goal is to avoid SUFFERING, so an egg from a backyard rescue hen or surplus milk from a goat on your own farm that you treat well is OK. Really, it is, unless you are an extremist asshole. Also the key phrase is "as far as possible". Bitten by snake and need anti-venom? Fucken get it. Stuck on a desert island and need to eat a fish to survive? Do so. Serving in the armed forces and have to use leather products like boots? Suck it up or don't join.
>>37395224
[cont.]
Lastly, like any philosophy that one tries to express through practical acts, it is far from perfect and has some problems. Caring about the natural environment, or the rights of workers in the animal industry, is not a necessary part of veganism as currently defined (though I would argue that it ought to be). There is no real solution to the problem of animals getting killed when plants are grown and harvested. There is no agreement on where to draw the line for what is OK and not OK to consume, and things like honey and even oysters are sometimes debated, as is the use of second-hand leather products. There is no cohesive political agenda, goal or strategy; one just avoids buying animal products and that's that. So in the end it's consumer activism, really: imperfect, but better than nothing perhaps.
But none of the above problems mean that killing animals is OK. Just like the practical problems and limits of pacifism don't mean that violence is awesome: it just means that there are some practical issues that prevent perfect implementation. To disregard the philosophy as a whole because of this is to commit the Nirvana fallacy.
>>37395045
Yes but NOT 0, and with a vegan diet there is a real chance of getting to 0. Like I said, just have some coconut crap and problem solved. The cholesterol-lowering effects of veganism is a main reason that people with heart diseases are sometimes put on plant-based diets by their doctors, so no one is disputing that overall the lack of cholesterol is a good thing.
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/About-Cholesterol_UCM_001220_Article.jsp
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp
https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/cholesterol
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/hbc
From what I understand from reading a bit, the body can't make its own cholesterol, but I'm open to being proved wrong on this.
>>37395303
>Yes but NOT 0, and with a vegan diet there is a real chance of getting to 0.
Yes, even at 0% saturated fat consumption your body would produce cholesterol. Your body doesn't make cholesterol from saturated fat, saturated fat just raises cholesterol levels mostly by inhibiting your body's ability to get excess cholesterol out of your blood (by downregulating the expression of the receptors that transport lipoproteins), because you're already producing tons. And besides that, the only chance of getting 0% of your diet as saturated fat is to eat purely white sugar. Even bananas and oatmeal have some saturated fat.
>From what I understand from reading a bit, the body can't make its own cholesterol, but I'm open to being proved wrong on this.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=422
Not only does your body produce its own cholesterol, it often produces much more than you need, as your biochemistry expects you to be eating a high-fiber diet that will help remove the excess. Your first link even mentions that your body makes cholesterol.
>Your body, and especially your liver, makes all the cholesterol you need and circulates it through the blood.
Or from health.gov, "The body uses cholesterol for physiological and structural functions but makes more than enough for these purposes."
>>37395443
Damn nigga, I linked YOU to the heart.org site and missed the first fucken paragraph about the body making it... guess I was wrong then. Not that it matters, coconut milk is fucking delish and Imma keept eating it :)
![nrmicro1473-f5[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/GvJBAnX.jpg "nrmicro1473-f5[1].jpg")
>>37395443
>>37395303
And this is also confusing saturated fat with cholesterol. Coconut products for example aren't a source of cholesterol, they're a source of saturated fat, which can raise cholesterol. Neither dietary cholesterol nor dietary saturated fats are necessary to produce the cholesterol that circulates in your blood, they only increase the amount circulating, which you don't want. Cholesterol is synthesized from the ubiquitous molecule Acetyl-CoA.
>>37395509
Yeah, every once in a while I'll make a treat with coconut milk. Last Halloween I had a nice pumpkin-and-date smoothie with whipped coconut cream. That shit tasty.
>>37390748
B12
gg no re
>>37394317
Consuming too much ANYTHING is bad.
Yes, all of my nuts, beans, lentils and hemp powder. No good protein sources oh no!
Fats? This nigga never heard of coconuts or avocados.
Zinc? A decent serving of oats will easily cover 40% of my daily requirement.
I'm not saying you are entirely wrong, but it's hard to take you seriously when you say a bunch of goofy shit.
>>37395533
I eat it like twice a week, is that bad? I eat a lot of curries...
>>37395514
>Neither dietary cholesterol nor dietary saturated fats are necessary to produce the cholesterol that circulates in your blood, they only increase the amount circulating, which you don't want.
You also need to point you that the liver only produces cholesterol if the body really needs it. If you eat cholesterol rich foods, your body will stop producing cholesterol, the problem lies in eating too much cholesterol. Too much saturated fat will also raise cholesterol levels.
So a balanced omnivore diet, eating the right amount, is perfectly health. No need to fearmonger.
>>37395224
>>37395236
Quality post.
>>37395636
>You also need to point you that the liver only produces cholesterol if the body really needs it
What do you mean by that? When does your body not need cholesterol? It's producing it at all times, in large amounts.
>If you eat cholesterol rich foods, your body will stop producing cholesterol
Completely made up. I think what you're going for is your body will produce less of its own if you eat cholesterol rich foods, but even that's misleading since it'll still result in higher blood cholesterol levels.
A balanced omnivore diet can be really good, like the mediterranean diet, but it can still be improved upon.
>>37376526
iopq pls go
>>37395691
>Completely made up. I think what you're going for is your body will produce less of its own if you eat cholesterol rich foods, but even that's misleading since it'll still result in higher blood cholesterol levels.
Nope:
>Our liver produces anywhere from 1-2 grams of cholesterol per day. Production can decrease when we eat cholesterol-rich foods and increase when we eat foods without cholesterol.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-cholesterol
>>37394317
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/
>In conclusion, results concerning body weight, nutritional intake, nutritional quality and quantity are in line with the literature on restricted and prudent diets versus unrestricted omnivorous diets. The use of indexing systems, estimating the overall diet quality based on different aspects of healthful dietary models (be it the US Dietary Guidelines for Americans or the compliance to the Mediterranean Diet) indicated consistently the vegan diet as the most healthy one.
I wonder how cavemen survived while eating meat. Or desert people, you know, because they had zero agriculture back then.
>>37395708
That doesn't disagree with what I said or support what you said. Here's an example in a study. Adding dietary cholesterol results in higher LDL levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6142348/
>>37391239
i'm really wondering why are vegans eating soy when it's been proven that it's lowering your testosterone levels even way more than sweets do. other than that your diet besides is pretty similar to what i ate (i excluded soy and pasta) and it kinda worked but do you know any vegans adapting reasonable diet? i really met only clueless idiots. btw i found myself to be performing best on a plant based diet with occasional fish, chicken and eggs added to the mix.
Vegans are the first to admit that they're basically the same as a cow. Hence, eating vegans should be legal.
It doesn't disagree with what I said. you simply danced around the subject and used "less cholesterol," to make it "your" version. What I said, even though it may not have been properly worded, is true and the source provided shows it. You're fearmongering, like a typical vegan.
>>37395761 in reply to >>37396236
>>37396236
All your quote said was "production can decrease when we eat cholesterol-rich foods," which is what I said as well, although this doesn't translate to lower or unchanged levels of cholesterol upon feeding. You tried to say that your body only produces cholesterol "when it really needs it" as if eating dietary cholesterol turns off your liver's production and you normally get it all from your diet. You've posted nothing to support that.
Instead of getting embarrassed and defensive, just say "my bad, you're right"
>>37396277
Intead of tring to save face, admit you attempted to make it seem like eating cholesterol at the right amount is bad and had zero insight about, or tried to cover up, the liver producing less chlesterol by eating cholesterol-rich foods until it was mentioned.
>>37396374
What is "the right amount" to eat? I didn't bring it up because I'm not aware of any amount that's "the correct amount." The National Academy of Sciences link I posted said any increase in cholesterol intake increases heart disease risk >>37395443
>or tried to cover up, the liver producing less chlesterol by eating cholesterol-rich foods until it was mentioned.
As I said, it's misleading to say that, and I provided a study showing that including more cholesterol in the diet results in more cholesterol in the blood, not less.
>>37395443
>>37396428
Ah shit, I just realized I linked to the saturated fat page again when I meant to post the cholesterol one
http://www.nap.edu/read/10490/chapter/11
>>37378853
>being dense enough to compare babies dying from something specific(b12 and iron deficiency due to dumb parents) to all the babies that died(not necessarily due to the dietary choices of the parents )
>fucking autist herbivores
>>37380520
>animals suffer in the wild when they die sometimes enduring torturing and excruciating deaths at the expense of predators and vegans don't care
>but muh animal suffrin
>but muh sentient beans
