OK guys. I actually want to know how anyone knows who's natty. Everyone just agrees someone isn't natty and then it's fact. I'm not saying Simeon is natty but how do you know? Give me actual evidence. Here's what I usually get:
>you just can't be that big
>you just can't be that shredded
>ffmi argument which asumes those dudes from like 100 years ago where the genetic limit.
Think about this, if big ramy trained natural his whole life he would be accused of taking roids even if he wasn't.
His FFMI is 29
Now go fuck yourself Simeon
fuck you simeon you lying nigger
>>35097707
big ramy has an FFMI of 43.6
eugen sandow had an FFMI of 28 (and didn't even train chest)
obviously this is not a reasonable expectation for 99.9% of people.
but is it truly genetically impossible?
>>35097740
>>35097707
fuck you blaha/richard
>>35097681
>Think about this, if big ramy trained natural his whole life he would be accused of taking roids even if he wasn't.
That's kind of an interesting point. Unfortunately, Simeon isn't Big Ramy and 10 years is neither his whole life nor even a particularly interesting window into the timeline of his development.
You don't need the pic from 2014. You just need to see the pic from around 2009 when he did his first cycle. The changes are really immediately noticeable.
>>35097748
i'm genuinely asking a question, not saying
#hardworkanddedication
or someshit.
but are there no genetic outliers?
>>35097707
Did you not read the OP. The ffmi assumes those few bodybuilders where the genetic limit. They didn't even bench. And if you read there workouts they're pathetic. There where also a small amount of people bodybuilding. Now we have a bigger sample size therefore more freaks. Literally 1000s of times the sample size.
So you going to give some actual evidence?
the bait is strong in this thread
>>35097772
Guess you should tell Sandow that he had shit genetics then
>>35097786
Nice bait faggot, but you've activated my trap card
>>35097772
Sure there might be, but it's best to use Occam's Razor when it comes to things like this
It is not hard to tell when someone is clearly on fraud gear. "Health coaches" abusing steroids so they can easily rake up commission on garbage products sold to guillible fat people is nothing new. It's not a deep dark secret or anything, the scam just works too well on too many people to fail
>>35097786
Buddy, I bench 170kg natty. I squat 4 plate for reps, I DL over 5plate, and I have a FFMI of 22.6. You're insane if you believe you can have an FFMI of 29 as a natty. Prime fucking Arnold had an FFMI of 28.7.
>>35097810
rolling
>>35097810
rolling
>>35097810
Roll
>>35097801
He might have. But his routine was shit. If someone did it today people will think the he's retarded.
>>35097772
I'm saying the method is flawed to begin with
>>35097769
How do you know Simeon doesn't have better or similar genetics than ramy for muscle growth? Also what evidence so you have that he started his cycle. That picture is zoomed in and stretched horizontally btw.
>>35097822
Congrats m8 you should compete in powerlifting. But you obviously have focused your efforts on strength. Also, pics or it didn't happen
>>35097740
Eugen Sandow did not have an FFMI of 28. His bodyfat levels are not known, but accurate guesses of his FFMI are 25-26, which is literally at the absolute peak of the genetic limit for his height
>>35097681
If he's claiming natty then the burden of proof of nattiness is on him. If he doesn't produce it he should content himself with the accusations.
>>35097810
rolling
>dubs say simeon isnt natty
>>35097866
this is the worst bait thread I've ever seen
>>35097891
The burden of proof lies with the accuser m80
>>35097891
Lol that makes no sense. By default he's natty. People are accusing him of doing something illegal the burden of proof is on them. Think of it this way, if he went to court someone would have to prove he's on drugs.
>>35097921
Then why can't you answer?
>>35097944
kek
We know he's riding the bike. He's the one making the claim that he's natural. It's his job to prove he is.
>>35097951
you're an idiot
>>35097810
rolling
>>35097681
>be simeon
>roid hard as fuck
>look extremly unnatural, look the same or better then mr. olympia winners
>make a youtube video about how natty i am and that i even did a polygraph test
topkek at this guy.. i bet he actually believes that pinning grams of test and tren is considered natty lel.
>>35097944
I did answer. Here >>35097822
If you honestly believe a guy with a bigger FFMI than Arnold is natty you might as well kill yourself.
>>35097962
See, you can't even come up with an argument
>mfw when Simeon shills on suicide watch
>>35097998
He has polygraph tests as proof, yours is "I think that's not possible" witch no current statistical evidence. Do I think he's natural? Fuck no. Don't care either. It's better for society as a whole if roids remains behind doors not socially accepted.
You're a fucking prick the way you conduct yourself also.
>>35098017
>Polygraphs
>Proof
Pick one.
>>35098017
>Polygraph tests
>proof
>mfw
>>35097810
Rollin'
>>35097810
rollin
>>35098031
>>35098023
It's more proof then "I think so"
Which is all it needs to be in this case.
Idiots. Welcome to constructing an argument.
>>35098046
Just admit that you got BTFO by Virgin gains
>>35097951
You clearly don't know how this works. I'm removing you from this thread you are no longer allowed to participate.
>>35097970
Evidence =/= memes
>>35097977
He's below Arnold. Pic related
>>35098046
Fuck em up!
>>35098073
Hard to when it's something I literally couldn't give two shits about, I just enjoy pointing out how incredibly badly constructed some people's arguments are.
Yal the niggahs getting mad cuz Simeon says he's natty lol.
>>35098076
So this chart that you're posting, which is showing he's at the same level as Arnold and above people who have even been caught for roids, is your evidence?
>>35098106
Bruh, everyone on that chart is natural. They all said so.
>>35098091
Disprove the the fact that his FFMI is 29 makes him unnatural, without using a strawman or ad hom.
You literally cannot do even do this
Literally
>>35098076
He's close and far above Zyzz and Frank Zane who were known roiders.
>>35098109
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp9Z_KGkxFo
>>35098115
Zyzz and Zane both had shit tier muscle building genetics and used roids to fill that gap in to take advantage of good insertions.
>>35098113
I wouldn't try to disprove it because obviously it's very unlikely he's natty, but tremendous genetic outliers are possible. Especially when a tiny infinitesimal portion of the population actually trains hard on a good diet for a consistent amount of time.
That's why this whole Natty/Not natty conversation is really, really, incredibly stupid to talk about.
>>35098148
You do not continue to make gains year after year.
Saying that someone has trained for X number of years is a fallacious argument, because 99% of the population will max out their hypertrophy after five years of consistently good diet and training.
The natty/fake natty thing is stupid because it is selling a lie to a lot of younger guys, all for the benefit of making the liars money. It also creates a large amount of body dismorphic disorders because of the unrealistic standard it sets.
>>35098148
>trying to defend the "this is achievable natty"-dream this hard
lmao kill urself.
>>35098106
It's not evidence. I'm simply refuting the claim he's above Arnold as he's clearly below. Look at the bars, its a bar graph.
>>35098113
Not that guy but FFMI alone does not prove weather someone is natural in the first place. If that where the case I could send people to prison over FFMI.
>>35098169
Cmon m8 if you're not going to give abidence I might just have to revoke your posting rights to this thread.
>>35098165
Just for shits and giggles. What portion of the population do you think maintains good diet and exercise for 5 solid years even? When I said for a consistent amount of time that's about what I figured. Vast majority of people will not do that, they will fail in some aspect, thus the genetic pool that we see in bodybuilding is very small.
Let me state this again I agree he is 99.999999999% most likely not natural. And that is the best you can do besides someone saying they are not natural.
I'd prefer that youtubers, models, bodybuilders, athletes etc say they are natural so that kids are not inspired to take anabolics or think they have to. Eventually they will figure out they need to if they want to be at an elite level, people should have to find that out for themselves not get pushed towards it earlier.
The steroids have been invented thus discussing them not being taken is a moot point, they exist so they will be used. I would prefer it not be glorified and accepted as common or 'necessary', and I think that claiming natural helps avoid glorifying them.
I don't care if 100 nattys get mad if it means that 1 kid doesn't take gear for 5 more years or 1 other person trains that much harder because they think the impossible is possible, they might find they are the outlier and it actually is.
>>35098148
>Zyzz and Zane both had shit tier muscle building genetics
>a 3-time Mr. Olympia had shit muscle building genetics
>>35098169
I'm not. Simeon saying he is on a shit ton of gear will not make a single person in the world work harder. Him saying he is natural and it's hard work might. That at the end of the day is why I think that fake nattys are a good thing.
>>35098203
Sometimes I let the trolling get too obvious sorry.
>>35097810
Henry Rollins
>>35098216
It's okay. It happens to the best of us.
>>35097681
Have you seen him bulking between the pictures posted? All the pics I can find everywhere he is pretty low body fat. If someone is building muscle mass but not gaining fat they are on gear.
This is pretty much the most solid proof if someone is on gear or not
>>35098197
It's not possible. The man is on shitloads of gear and is bigger more cut and has a better comic book build then arnold at his very peak.
If he never ever ever opened his damned mouth about steroid use he'd be seen as the poster boy for the new non preggo bodybuilder and fitness craze. But right now he's another lying fuccboi natty.
OP needs a reason to lift, and can't handle the truthe/thread /bread have fun not making it
>>35098231
Dude, you don't just put on massive amounts of muscles just from bulking. That's a myth propagated by gear shills.
The way you can tell IS that he's really built and full but has low bodyfat.
And those cantelope shoulders and the full pecs?
Straight up gear abuse.
>>35097769
DID HE FUCKING GET EYEBROW EXTENSIONS?!!
>>35098203
Muscle building is not the same as good insertions. You can have shitty insertions and build muscle fast but you won't stand a chance in the Olympia.
>>35098231
That's not proof though. Can I go to a court and say this guy has been lean for too long? It could be due to a number of factors:
Why would they take pictures of themselves when they're not cut?
They could fluctuate under 15%
They could also have short bulking periods e.g 2 weeks off 2 on. That's actually pretty common
>>35098246
I already lift regardless. I'm just challenging a common belief that, by the look of this thread, has no actual evidence behind it. Now can you actually give some evidence or I'll revoke your posting rights to this thread.
>>35098046
No, it's absolutely no fucking prove and has no value whatsoever.
>if big ramy trained natural his whole life he would be accused of taking roids even if he wasn't.
if big ramy trained natty his whole life he'd be little ramy
>>35098283
Stop it already. Nobody is buying it.
>>35098336
Theres nothing im trying to sell. I didn't say he was natural. I'm just asking why you think he's roiding. I'll be back in a few days until I get an answer. Are you actually going to give some evidence or?
>>35098324
Yeah but he'd be significantly bigger than a normal guy. It's just a small example to think of not my entire argument, which you still haven't addressed.
>>35097810
Rollan
>>35098283
That's just the first major check. Second is large muscle growth over a short period of time.
>>35098353
We already explained it to you, if you don't wanna listen that's your choice.
>>35098283
Short of a blood test while he's blasting or pictures of him pinning nothing will hold up in court so that's a bad way to look at it. By that logic majority of people on gear are not on gear
>>35098360
You haven't explained anything. Give me actual evidence!
>>35098359
That's not evidence. Short relative to what? Even still, He gained it over 14 years and how do YOU know how much muscle a person can gain. Can you provide evidence.
>>35098372
I also gave other examples of why he stays lean. He could easily just not take pictures when he's bulking.
>>35098353
No, he wouldn't, you stupid kuk.
What the fuck do you think 'good genetics' means in the context of muscle hypertrophy? It means abnormally high levels of androgenic and growth hormones, but even a freakish one-in-a-billion outlier is still going to have lower levels than a roider on babbys first cycle.
>>35097681
to be sure I'd like to see pictures from all the in-between years too
but I'm sure he wasn't wasting his time with SS and other such nonsense
>>35098412
then why can't some accomplished bodybuilders build calves ? somehow their hormone level is different in their legs ? no, this means there's much more going on.
>>35098428
everyone can build fuck-huge gastrocnemii, however, variation in the calcaneal tendon length will determine how aesthetic the effect is
you cock gobbling retard faggot
>>35097891
>I don't understand basic rational argument
That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no, YER TOO FUKN BIG TO BE NATTY does not count as evidence. There is literally no onus on him to prove anything at all because no one is providing argument that isn't just speculation. He's responding to accusations (which he never should have done in the first place) when there is no need to, which is retarded in it's own right, but you're even more fucking retarded for thinking DA BURDEN OF PROOF LIES WITH HIM M8 because shitheads type baseless garbage on youtube comments.
>>35098324
>if big ramy trained natty his whole life he'd be little ramy
>>35098412
You still haven't addressed the main point. That was just an example. Forgot about it. Answer the OP.
>>35098277
lol looks like botox!
>>35098476
>Answer the OP.
all ready did:
>>35098412
>What the fuck do you think 'good genetics' means in the context of muscle hypertrophy? It means abnormally high levels of androgenic and growth hormones, but even a freakish one-in-a-billion outlier is still going to have lower levels than a roider on babbys first cycle.
C U C K
U
C
K
>>35098486
Pretty much this. There are genetic outliers. Look at Kai greene at 16. He was bigger than most lifetime roiders with a 20 year training age before he'd even started (presumably) juicing to any significant degree. People just pick on Simeon because he's a little crying bitch who bites on every single bait, a lot like Kali. At this point even if Simeon proved beyond a shadow of a doubt he was just the genetic 0.1% it wouldn't even matter, fitness personalities just need to take a completely ignoring stance to all steroid talk if they're either on gear or just genetically superior like Brad Martin does etc, it's just not worth it.
Hi /fit/ness, I'm a senior federal employee who's looking for large man to question about his diet and fitness routine. Do you think Simeon has an agent i could pay so I could find him? He could drive Simeon and a couple of his buddies out to my private jet and we could take off. I'd let his buddies come so he feels comfortable but honest he's the only one I need.
>>35098486
You haven't given any actual evidence. Otherwise this would have been over a long time ago. It's still "he's too big". Anyway I'm OP and I have to go. You're just posting memes but you still haven't given evidence that actually holds up. Goodnight.
>>35097810
wellp, might as well roll and fap before bed
>>35097877
More like 24 afaik
The only actual evidence would be blood tests, or him or someone close to him actually saying he's on gear.
Everything else is just about the balance of probability. Bayesian evidence, you might say.
I guess maybe some smart anon that has college access to peer reviewed papers could actually look up and see if there are any recent studies of fat free mass index as a predictor for steroid use.
The real question then is, "Seriously, what does it actually change for you to learn that this random guy is or is not taking performance enhancing drugs?"
You want to look like a body builder, and want evidence that you can look like him without needing to take drugs?
But there's a problem there, even if he's not using the PEDs, or especially if not, I guess, he's obviously pretty genetically gifted.
Why not just learn the fundamentals of physical adaptation to exercise, perfect your routine and your diet, and do that for three to five years and see what happens.
You'll get an idea of the far far more important fact of what YOU look like when not on anabolics. If that look is satisfactory, good. If not, try steroids! It's that simple.
i don't really believe that some ov you guy think that this guy is natty while the rock isn't...
>>35098463
cool broscience not supported by anything
>>35097822
>170kg bench
>only 4plate squat
Dem made up estats
DYEL confirmed.
>>35098507
>Kai Greene before hgh induced pumpkin head
God damn he fucked himself up
Sick gains though
>>35098507
>Assumes kai wasn't roiding.
>>35097810
Wishing I had a qt Geo Mancer
>>35097681
Impossible, Jason Blahaha said you can only lift naturally for about 6-7 years before you need to start juicing for gains.
>>35098507
I don't know why you would assume Kai wasn't already juicing at 16. Many serious bodybuilders admit to juicing around that age.
And if Simeon is natty, he isn't 0.1% elite, it's more like 0.00001%.
>>35097681
He is as big as Arnold, who started taking deca like candy at 15. And unlike this panda Arnie actually trained hard.
>>35098412
>you stupid kuk
>>35098463
>you cock gobbling retard faggot
Your tears are deIicious! Have you been skipping Ieg day due to how hard your ass has been fractured?
PIease continue being wrong because watching you be this mad is pretty entertaining!
>>35099113
You, i like you.
>>35097822
I keep trying to measure my fat with calipers, visually its no more than 35%, but I get 27-30% with calipers.
My ffmi is something like 24-26 while def being in noob gains phase.
i must be holding either extra visceral fat or bone/organ weight? Anyone else run into this? Considering getting bodpod measurement or dexa just out of curiousity. I'd suppose one nice thing about knowing my current lean mass is I am cutting and I want to see what I lose/keep or even gain since noob gains.
>>35097810
pls be a cute roll
>>35098639
>1RM
>reps
Retard
>>35099517
Wot?
If you are over 20% you don't need calipers to tell you that you are too fat.
Stop giving a shit about numbers and start worrying about effort. And eating less.
Fatty.
>>35097681
When you are more than 2 years into lifting you can easily tell who's natty and who isn't.
>>35098507
>NGA
>>35097681
Anytime someone looks 'cartoonish' like this guy does you know they aren't natty.
>>35097810
Dancer or Geomancer get.
>>35098017
Where are his polygraph tests?
What evidence is there that the polygraph tests didn't ask him, "is it true that your name is Simeon, Simeon?" instead
>>35098017
>polygraph tests as proof you are natty
Nigger are you dumb? Polygraph tests can be beaten and fabricated. They don't mean jack shit.
Serious you just need to use some common fucking sense and not listen to what some stupid fake news morning show tells you.
If he's natural then everything we know about hormones is a lie.
>>35098017
>He has polygraph tests as proof
Consider pooicide
>>35097810
Fuck it
>>35097681
I guess it is the period of time lifting compared to the amounts of gains, mostly at the delts (front?), size of the serratus anterior and other muscle groups which I don't remember.
Fuck there was a pic that showed a natty and fraud bodybuilder and circled the important areas. Look it up somewhere.
>>35097951
Everyone knows OJ simpson did it. Burden of proof lies with the accuser. Glove didn't fit, OJ's free. (well he's in jail for another crime but he's a nig so that's to be expected)
>>35097810
Roll
>>35100355
My favorite meme. Thanks.
>>35097810
roll
>>35098324
How can this post be so underrated?
>>35097681
Hi OP, I pretty much rely on clues to make a natty/not natty decision. The ambiguity is deliberate, the fitness industry would collapse if people knew for sure who is and isn't roiding.
1) What everyone else already said in the thread regarding speed of gains, ffmi, 3-D delts etc.
2) Lack of specificity regarding diet and routine. "yeah bruh I just focus on compounds and eat chicken". The reason they do this is because any natty lifter above intermediate can spot a fucked up routine:
3) If specific routine is given, the volume is absolutely insane, and/or the exercises are curlbro. Anything with more volume than SL 5x5 (particularly for an advanced lifter) is suspect. Anyone who says they are in the gym "6 days a week" is suspect. Natties simply need a lot more recovery time.
4) Does the lifter make a living off his body? If so, there is more incentive to roid.
Like this thread no proof whatsoever yet u guys keep acusing celebs etc about steroids, hard to accept that they have the training routine rest time, reps down to perfection and best nutritious meals timed by the min?
>Take his height, weight and bf%
>Compare it to 80s bodybuilders
>If they have similar stats then they're juicing
Mystery solved.
>>35097801
strong pecs
Reminder that you can achieve guaranteed natty gains (he's been tested) like Alexey Lesukov as long as you eat clen and tren hard.
>>35097810
Roll
m8s what would be a proper PCT for:
12 week 500 test-e
10week 200 primo depot
I have tome tamoxifen (60 x 20mg tabs)
and some anastrozol (60 x 1mg tabs)
>>35097810
Pls be mimic
