Is OHP enough for overall delt development?
>>34899355
Yeah but don't be a cunt and add lat raises and face pulls
>>34899355
Nope.
Add seated row or delt flies for rear delt.
>>34899365
But Medhi said so
>>34899376
since when medhi does anything about fitness or lifting?
>>34899364
this. 1000%
>>34899355
Yeah.
Just make sure you do face pulls and deadlifts too.
>>34899355
>the press
>>34899355
eh.. your side and rear delts will lag if you only rely on OHP.. especially if you do bench too..
simply way too much anterior work.
do side laterals and face pull or rear delt flies to
1.keep your side delts up to par
2.prevent rounded shoulder
3.improve your OHP
why the fuck would you not do side raises?
shoulder development is literally what defines a good physique. just don't be a retard and use good form with a light weight you can rep with.
>>34899681
I do upright rows instead
my shoulders are flexible enough
>>34899681
Because Mehdi said high rep isolations are shit and only compounds build that THICKNESS everyone wants
Also what's the best Lower lat exercise?
>>34899787
but medhi is a faggot, why would you listen to this loser?
ALL YOU EVER NEED TO DO FOR SHOULDERS
1. OHP or dumbbell press
2. Lateral raises
3. Face pulls
>>34899787
>face pulls
>>34899804
who cares what mehdi says. he is a marketer.
let's pay attention to what rippetoe says, because mehdi just rips him off.
basically rippetoe thinks you are fine with just OHP, and i dont see any accessory exercises for isolation.
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts#The_Accessory_Exercises
>>34899787
>this faggot asking the same fucking question again
kill yourself
>>34899834
>who cares what mehdi says. he is a marketer.
>let's pay attention to what rippetoe says, because mehdi just rips him off.
now, you have my attention
isn't ripptoe tlaking only for beginners though?
>>34899865
>now, you have my attention
>isn't ripptoe tlaking only for beginners though?
yes, but the step after is texas method, which is basically teh same lifts.
rippetoe addresses it, but in an asshole way as usual; i bet if you google around , you'll see him talking face pulls too
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/archive/index.php/t-31255.html?s=e1a9c082b7e4a7fc5fd1f3e7e0a96416
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/archive/index.php/t-30127.html?s=f8c40f062961f6036f63f28a199d789f
Overhead press is the least important delt exercise...
Your delts get stimulation if you do a good chest routine.
Focus your delt days on rear and lateral delts.
For me this is what i do:
3 read delt exersises
3 lateral head
2 anterior delt
>>34899508
>2.prevent rounded shoulder
But why? Do you mean the general hunched aped look a lot of bench bros are plagued by? Cause, to me, a round shoulder sounds like capped cannonball delts, which I assume is OP's goal.
>>34899922
Samefag, just to clarify, I agree with >>34899508
's suggested exercises. I alternate between OHP and dumbbell raises weekly for power days and supplement with facepulls and lateral raises. It's been working well.
>>34899881
>If you think side raises spare the cuff tendons, you have a poor understanding of the relevant anatomy. I have attempted to educate you on pages 76-81 of BBT3, so re-read that. Are you proposing to do dumbbell isolation work instead of presses? And if you're really concerned about your quads, just do some leg extensions.
>Your steely persistence in the face of my abrasive pigheadedness is impressive. Lateral raises impinge the shoulder. Please do lots of them.
>Pages 77-81 and 156-58 in BBT3 cover shoulder impingement in great detail. Read it and tell me if you don't think this silly exercise [facepulls] has the potential to produce shoulder problems.
Lateral raises and upright rows in place of face pulls. Face pulls are for cowards.
>>34899782
why not do bent arm side raises? it does the same job without the retarded arm twisting
why risk injury? do you only wanna lift for a couple weeks/months?
>>34899961
only a dyel would say this
>>34899980
I've been lifting for 5+years anfd never injuried myself with it
it's in fact the first thing I did with a bb so I keep it by nostalgy too
if you're afraid of hurting yourself just don't g as high and don't do the "twisting", stop at nipple height
>>34899922
Rounded delts are not round delts they mean you have an imbalance in your musculature
>>34899832
>wanting to not have 3D delts as natty
Do Matt Ogus's band/dumbbell shoulder warmup and wall slides between every set
1. OHP
2. Lateral Raises
3. Rear delt flyes
4. Facepulls
>>34900173
sorry bro, but it's like doing fucking crossfit
eventually, unless you're the genetic lottery winner 5%, you're gonna get injured. and it's gonna be worse if you're advanced and lift heavy.
Lu raises, nigga.
LU RAISES. Best for shoulder width and health.
>>34899355
>3pl8 OHP
>>34900224
those are bumper plates
>>34899936
>An injury usually attributed to the press by physical therapists and other medical types is the situation called shoulder impingement. Most of the time, PTs advise against using the press because of the supposed tendency of the tendons of the rotator cuff muscles to become trapped between the head of the humerus and the bony projections on the scapula − the coracoid and acromion processes. These bony knobs function as attachment points for the biceps, the pec minor, the coracobrachialis muscle, and the ligaments that hold the scapula and the clavicle together at the acromioclavicular (AC) joint. The coracoid and acromion processes overhang the head of the humerus where it articulates with the glenoid. Because the external rotators, specifically the supraspinatus and the infraspinatus, overlay the head of the humerus and underlay the subacromial bursa and these bony knobs, most PTs believe that the potential for mashing the bones together and trapping the tendons in between (impinging the tendons) is so high that the exercise is dangerous and should not be performed.
>This dogma ignores the anatomical facts about a properly performed press. The scapula is attached to the rest of the shoulder girdle at only one point, the clavicle at the AC joint. Except for the acromioclavicular ligament, the scapula essentially “floats” freely through its range of motion in a sheath of fascia and muscle, so that its position can change relative to all the other structures of the back and the humerus. The scapula can move from a position of extreme adduction, as in the bench press, to being pulled forward, as with the start position of a barbell row, to the shrugged-up, rotated-in-at-the-top position used at the top of the press.
>>34900217
these give me the best shoulder pump
>>34900237
>When you press overhead, you finish the movement by shrugging your shoulders up toward the bar. This motion engages the trapezius muscles that connect the spinous processes of the vertebral segments in the neck and upper back to the scapulas, and this actively reinforces the traps’ support for the shoulders and the bar. In effect, the bar is supported overhead by the locked-in-line arms, the scapulas hold up the arms, and the traps hold up the scapulas, so the shrugged traps actively support the weight of the bar. When the traps contract, they pull the scapulas together at the top so that they rotate medially, and the shrug pulls them upward. This motion points the glenoid cavity upward to directly support the humerus from below, and pulls the acromion and coracoid processes away from the humerus. If you press properly, the shrugged-upward scapulas are thus positioned to support the arms and the bar overhead while making impingement of the cuff tendons impossible (Figure 3-5, Figure 3-6).
>The claim that presses impinge the shoulder is therefore not correct. Pressing incorrectly is not the same thing as pressing – you don’t get to redefine the exercise and then claim that it’s dangerous. Driving a car is dangerous if you drive it into a great big rock.
>>34900252
>There are several excellent ways to impinge the shoulder, none of them involving the press. All you have to do is hold the scapula in position while letting the humerus wedge itself into the bony processes. Bench pressing with an incorrect elbow position and certain gymnastic movements, like ring dips and ring pushups in the absence of adequate strength preparation, are good ways to put the shoulder in an anatomically or mechanically dangerous situation that you cannot control. Powerlifting is hard on the shoulders’ long-term health, and the recent fascination with gymnastic exercises by novice athletes has been responsible for many surgical procedures that would otherwise not have been necessary. Sports that use an overhead position, like tennis, swimming, and volleyball, but which do not typically use the press to prepare the body for the stress of that position, experience high rates of shoulder injury and surgical repair. But amazingly enough, shoulder injuries are quite uncommon in Olympic weightlifting, where the point of the sport is to put as much weight overhead as possible. Weightlifters learn very quickly how to hold a weight overhead, while tennis players have perhaps been actively discouraged from learning the safe way to work in this position.
>>34900261
>Shoulder injuries do occur with significant frequency, and the press has been used for decades to rehabilitate injured shoulders, particularly injured rotator cuffs. Rehabbing this way works for the same reason that it is safe to press, and for the same reason that pressing actually strengthens the rotator cuff muscles. Physical Therapy usually addresses shoulder rehab with direct exercises on the rotator cuff involving rubber bands and 2-pound dumbbells, an interesting approach considering that these isolation movements do not occur as a normal part of typical human movement patterns. But when you press overhead and finish the lockout correctly, all of the muscles of the shoulder are tight and contracted. As the weight goes up over time, the strength of the finish must increase and the force produced by all of the contracting muscles must therefore increase as well. Since the press uses the rotator cuff muscles isometrically to stabilize the lockout position at the top, and since proper form ensures that they are active in this capacity as well as safe relative to a position of impingement, it seems as though the logical way to strengthen the cuff muscles – even cuff muscles weakened by injury and surgical repair – is to press correctly. In the correct press lockout, the weaker muscles are supported by the healthy ones, and as the injured muscles heal, they are able to resume an increasing amount of their normal functional load if correct technique is utilized with weights light enough to permit it. In this way, the injured muscles can be brought back to normal function while performing their normal function, in effect given no choice but to heal by doing what they normally do.
>>34900271
>Since the press strengthens the shoulders, the key to shoulder health for your whole athletic career and your life as an active adult is to press correctly as an integral part of your training. Most lifters who have shoulder problems have failed to take this advice and have paid for ignoring this most important upper-body exercise. In fact, before the bench press became the sole focus of upper-body training in the gym, shoulder injuries were uncommon. Rotator cuff problems can be addressed in training, before they ever start, by making sure that bench press work is balanced by an equivalent amount of overhead work. For every bench press workout, there should be a press workout.
>>34900237
>>34900252
>>34900261
Am I supposed to shrug at the top?
Because I never saw anyone doing it at my gym and I didn't have any RC problems from OHP
>>34900252
>>34900288
>>When you press overhead, you finish the movement by shrugging your shoulders up toward the bar
andy baker at ksc also told me to do it
>>34900303
I tried it and it feels super unconfortable desu.
Can I get away with not doing it in the long run
>The position of the humerus while it moves the bar is crucial to the success of the movement. This position is determined by the angle the humerus makes with the torso as it proceeds from the lockout position down to the chest and back, as seen from above. The bar starts at the lockout position directly over the shoulder joint. In this position, there is no moment arm between bar and pivot point – the bar is in balance, with no effort being expended to keep it there other than keeping the upper arms and the forearms locked in a straight column of support. At the bottom – on the chest – a humerus angle of 90 degrees to the torso, a position of complete “abduction,” would have the upper arms at right angles to the bench, parallel to the bar, with the bar directly over the shoulder joints. If mechanical considerations were our only concern, this would be the ideal bottom position because it would produce a mechanically ideal bar path, with zero moment between bar and joint through the whole range of motion, and zero force to apply on any leverage between bar and shoulder.
>But mechanical considerations are not our only concern. We need to be able to train the bench press without injuring our shoulders. Shoulder surgery is a GREAT BIG DEAL, I assure you. This makes anatomical considerations very important in an analysis of bench press mechanics.
Depends on what you're looking for. If you want ball shaped shoulders you gotta hit the muscle from all angles..bro.
I really like machine laterals, facing the pad so the elbows are elevated above the hands and drive with the elbow up. Cable reverse flys and dumbbell rear delt flies really hit the rear delts for me personally. Can never feel it right on the reverse pec dec.
>>34899364
>>34899374
>>34899508
>>34899832
>>34899998
>>34900205
>they fell for the face pull meme
Face pulls are overrated and useless unless you're a dyel who can't/won't do weighted pullups and chinups. Inverted rows would also suffice for a while. You can't correctly bench and press your way into uneven shoulders if your programming isn't garbage and have adequate back work with pullups and chins.
>>34900288
you can get away with not shrugging if you have the genetics (your acromion is a good type that doesnt impinge your shoulder easily)
but there's really no reason not to shrug. how the fuck is that uncomfortable
>>34900345
>The press is never a problem for shoulder health because when you are standing, the scapulas are free to rotate up and in toward the spine as you drive the bar up. This allows the scapular position to accommodate the humerus locked in line with the forearm, so that there is no impingement between the bony knobs on the lateral scapula – the acromion and coracoid processes – and the rotator cuff and bicep tendons. The scapula gets out of the way of the humerus because it can “float” into a position that doesn’t hurt anything (Figure 3-5). In fact, the scapula is pulled out of the way by the trapezius muscle as the bar is shrugged into lockout.
>In contrast, the bench press position traps the scapulas under the rib cage into a solid platform against the bench as the chest is shoved up and the back is arched. The scapulas are adducted – pinched together or retracted. They do not move if the position is assumed correctly, because they are functioning as the interface between the body and the bench. Therefore, they cannot accommodate the humerus if it approaches the bony processes. Since the scapula cannot adjust to accommodate the humerus, the humerus must accommodate the scapula by staying out of the way of the bony processes so that they don’t saw a hole through the rotator cuff tendons.
>The lifter keeps the scapulas out of the way by lowering the elbows, and thus the humerus, from 90 degrees of abduction to about 75 degrees. This shift allows the humerus to travel from lockout down to a position that permits the bar to touch the chest – the longest range of motion that can be made with a straight bar – and back to lockout without approaching a position that would impinge the shoulder. But as mentioned earlier, there are mechanical considerations.
>>34900353
Except you're absolutely retarded for not having them in your program
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
>>34899787
>Also what's the best Lower lat exercise?
Steroids. Srsly.
>>34900383
just overhead press and you'll be fine. please tell me the exact mechanism how face pulls prevent injury
>>34900400
>please tell me the exact mechanism how face pulls prevent injury
okay babby i'll spoon feed you, the overhead press is great and all, but it does not sufficiently train the rear deltoid. If you want your shoulder joint to not asplode, you do face pulls. Why? Because that way you'll be way stronger in external rotation, which means less potential for injury during bench other lifts like it.
>>34900442
please tell me how the ability to externally rotate your shoulder prevents injury in the bench. what's the most common injury in benching?
also, the infraspinatus and the teres minor aren't just external rotators. their primary function is stabilizing the humerus so as to keep it in the glenoid fossa during things like overhead pressing. you could just as well tell me you need to do isolated internal rotations to train your chest or lats.
>>34900400
are you retarded? enjoy your snapcity idiot
>>34900477
so you admit you know nothing about anatomy or injuries in detail
>b-but this guy said that you need strong external rotators so you gotta face pull
>>34900469
The infraspinatus and teres minor are key in preventing bench injuries because they are the muscles doing the most work to keep your humerus stabilized in the shoulder joint during bench
>>34900523
and why isn't the overhead press sufficient in training them? surely the load in it is bigger than in some silly isolating cable exercise like face pulls
>>34900523
then do The Press
you don't need anything more
>2015
>Not doing handstand push ups
>>34900547
>>34900564
The potential for less than stellar outcomes for stabilizing muscles is extremely high and you all fucking know this. You don't bench for biceps, why would you consider the press good enough
>>34900602
>You don't bench for biceps, why would you consider the press good enough
because the shoulder joint is way different than the elbow joint and the load on the stabilizing muscles way greater
>>34900383
just do reverse flies if you're looking for safe prevention exercise
more degrees of freedom for the shoulder joint to do an exercise is always better
>3plaet ohp
Nice
>>34900383
>>34900442
You're either pretending to be stupid or you actually can't read. Weighted pullups and chins and some fucking rows is PLENTY of rear delt work. The only time it's not is if your back is outrageously lagging. Which, again, is due to your shit programming.
Nobody who correctly bench presses and can do sets of weighted pullups and chins will ever have shoulder issues due to a lack of rear delt development... because there is no lack of rear deltoid development in that case. Face pulls are, at best, a bandaid to the problem that is your absolutely dreadful back development. Those chest'n'arm bros with shitty forward rounded shoulders and are always complaining about their shoulder injuries have weak backs.
>>34900566
this f a m
and do them on RINGS
>>34900665
and this argument was about beginners, who not only don't know how their bodies work, which exercises do what, or anything in general, and you're saying you shouldn't have them doing preventative exercises that take maybe 10 minutes in the gym?
O K A Y
K A
A G
Y R
U
>>34900665
i agree otherwise but bodybuilding-wise, chins are definitely not enough for the rear delts. there's just not a lot of rom for them (hyperextension)
>>34900699
>and this argument was about beginners, who not only don't know how their bodies work, which exercises do what, or anything in general
and this somehow means you can tell them to do face pulls, but not a mix of presses and chins/pullups?
>preventative exercises
no, they're a waste of time and energy
Related question, are the "innies" (not "outies") Scooby is doing bullshit or not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpdlF_Vh7zg
every time I try and do lat raises even with really low weights (like 4kg, I'm just starting out) my left shoulder always gives out
how many reps should I be doing? the program I'm on says about 15 but that feels like way too many
>>34900756
POR QUE NO LOS DOS MOTHERFUCKER?
>>34900768
>>34900768
who the fuck told you that you're supposed to lift X kg? go lower, that's normal
don' worry you'll come back once you build up enough strength with time
>>34900760
yes
scoobert knows nothing
>>34900810
yeah I suppose, so what about reps, is about 15 a regular amount?
>>34900699
Why not suggest they do some fucking inverted rows until they can do pulls and chins until they can add some weight to a belt? Why start them off with face pulls and get them of the mindset it's okay if their back is shit as long as their rear delts are only just developed enough that they don't mess up their shoulders during bench.
It wouldn't surprise me if you suggest day one dyels to do curls, calves, and go home.
I've been doing OHP with dumbbells
Ghow stupid am I?
>>34900844
I never suggested that you just can't read very well.
I can do only sited OHP. If I try to lift same weight while standing, my lower back is instantly snapping. What to do?
>>34900843
yes, they always tell new lifters to do high reps for like 3 months
>>34900331
i'm a novice, so i dont know; maybe its a slight movement instead of a heavy shrug.
ask on the starting strenght forum
>>34900878
Stop being a curryfucker. In all seriousness you need to lessen the weight and learn to brace your core.
>>34900884
nice one cheers mate
How do I OHP properly if one of my shoulder is higher than the other?
>>34900665
I agree with this dude. I hit my rear delts on my back day. Bent over rows and seated cable rows hit them and they grow just fine. Rear delt flies are for SnapBack wearing fuck bois. Face pulls seem extraneous to me but then again, If you ego bench like an asshole and can't be bothered to develop your back maybe you should do face pulls to prevent injury...
>>34900890
>and learn to brace your core
Well, that was the question you didn't actually answer.
>>34900982
squeeze glutes
flex abs
and try to keep your spine neutral
>>34900940
>x exercise is for fags
Bullies fuck off
>>34900928
You rest the bar on your hunch and squat instead, Quasimodo
>>34899508
Nobody NEEDS face pulls or side laterals or whatever else. There's no "face pull" section included in SS. If you think the basic lifts left you with a horribly twisted physique don't you think maybe they would have caught on to that at some point? Do you really think like "yeah, SS is a good program...but without face pulls you might as well be shooting meth directly into your bloodstream."
>>34900887
It's locking your shoulders out at the top
I like to train both traps/delts together
Military press
Behind back shrug
Lateral raises/front raise/reverse fly
Plate shrug/dumbell shrug/incline row
I also do neck rotator cuff work face pulls bent neck press and upright row before but at a very very light weight never heavy on them
>>34899355
Depends what you are going for. It will work your overall delts BUT, isolation exercises will create more aesthetics. Do you want to lift big and be strong? Or just look like you do 10x30?
>>34902160
DYEL spotted
>>34900866
smart.
>>34902160
>Starting Strength
>Starting
>Strength
>>physique
lol
