i genuinely don't see what he's talking about

/fa/ or not, Steve Albini is more based than anyone on this board ever could be

Of course he feels this way. That's just how Steve is. Those are all very valid points. At the same time fashion helps people show their identities. I like fashion.

>>11104529
The idea that your insecurities are being exploited by an industry to sell you clothes to make you "look good". The industry makes you believe you don't look "good" so they can sell you their clothes so you can look "good". They exploit the most superficial and insecure parts of human nature just to sell some fabric cut into the shape of the human form.

>>11104512
Fashion can exploit and be terrible, no doubt about it but not all of that is true.
Look at music, there's always trends in music that fade with generations, same with other forms of art. Some people truly express themselves with clothes and doesn't even mean buying the latest styles because within the last 7 years we've seen thrift stores blow up.

>>11104563
Sounds like your own insecurities are getting the best of you. Sometimes I wake up in a ranting mood too, like the other day I called this dog a 'little faggot' straight to his face. The dog doesn't know what faggot means but he's going to take it because I feed him.

>>11104577
>Some people truly express themselves with clothes
>putting on a costume for the recognition of others
Aren't people who do this (by definition) shallow?
>>11104585
>Sounds like your own insecurities are getting the best of you.
How so?

I always thought Albini was some edgy faggot, but it seems that he is actually a pretty cool guy.

>>11104590
Well, are you shallow because you enjoy your hobby? I wouldn't say I'm shallow for being into guitar, but I'm an elitist prick when it comes to it.
I don't see anything wrong with being a sneaker head either.

>>11104590
It's clearly not hurting you or your life but you felt the need to bestow someone else's negative idea of fashion on a fashion board.

>>11104590
Just assuming that people wear outfits for other people is narrow minded. Those dudes who look like Jedi's with skinny jeans, they get called faggot anytime someone sees them but they don't wear it for those people.

>>11104512
> He thinks I like lunarcore and cyberpunk because I'm insecure
> not because I'm a role-playing autist who wants to be like Kaneda and also likes rockets

Ok kid

Just b(e) yourself, guys

>he says while wearing clothes

>>11104665

Cosplayers are the cancer of every fandom.

>>11104648
I don't have a hobby, so I don't have any frame of reference to respond with.
>>11104652
I'm asking /fa/s opinion, I'm not emotionally invested in the question be it negative or not. You're projecting hard for some reason.
>>11104659
>but they don't wear it for those people.
Then who are they wearing it for?

>>11104676
I'm not a cosplayer
I just wear autistic stuff and pretend to be an anime character in my head or pretend I'm an astronaut

I like Steve Albini a lot but completely disagree with him here, of course fashion can be exploitative and cynical, but at the same time fashion can be a legitimate interest and hobby. I like clothes, im interested in them and not because I'm made to feel bad about myself because of the industry.

>>11104677
>Then who are they wearing it for?

For themselves, duh.

You see those furfags who wear fursuits in public aren`t actually craving for attention, or signalling other furfags, no they are doing it to feel good about themselves. People do this all the time you see, for they are all special individuals who dont care about nuffin.

>>11104684
>I like clothes
Why do you like clothes though?

>>11104684
>not because I'm made to feel bad about myself because of the industry.

/fa/ does insecurity better than anyone.

Honestly i'm overcompensating for my shortcomings, for the things that make me feel like i'm below everyone. Showing my taste in fashion and music, making people think that i'm better than them, really helps me from killing myself. That's the truth. That's why my instagram is filled with smartass words and pretentious stuffs. I want to impress people. I want to make me feel better about myself.

The fashion industry can never fail, clothing is such an integral part of human living, and unless we all became nudists there will always be an infrastructure in place for in style clothing. Even if everyone wore dead animal skins, at some point some dead animal skins would look better than others, or attractive people would wear certain kinds of animal skins which would make it more popular, this recreating a fashion industry. It's such an inevitable apex of domesticated society that complaining about it just makes you sound like a fucking edgy look-at-me-i-am-so-alternative cunt.

>>11104563
His argument makes sense until you realize that the modern fashion industry is really only a relatively recent thing. Fashion trends - and hell, even the designs we use today - were around well before someone brought multinational corporations into the picture. In other words, Albini attributes to ~evil corporations~ a "problem" that existed way before they existed.

What he doesn't realize is that people are generally pretty vain and insecure and the fashion industry is but one part of that. Even if we were to nuke the fashion and fitness industries and enforce some sort of ~you're beautiful as you are~ rule as a society, there would still be ugly people and attractive people, and the ugly people would still be insecure.

This reminds me of political idiots who claim that, if not for corporations and certain groups, we'd all live in perfect harmony. It's so short-sighted and unbelievable it's almost funny... but it's not.

tl;dr he jelly

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>>11104701

Is it fashion when everyone is wearing basically the same clothes only for its most basic of functions and theres no industry around it?

>>11104711
He specifically says he finds "fashion" itself repulsive, and that "there is an industry" is secondary to that initial idea. Your entire statement is predicated on a (deliberate?) misinterpretation.

Can you argue against the actual idea or not?

>>11104512
He's a bit excessive about it.
For me, and I assume many others, fashion is more of a casual thing and just for the fun of expressing yourself with your clothes.

>>11104746
He's clearly talking about the industry. The use of "someone else," "an industry," "fashion industry," "GQ as a magazine," etc. all indicate direct reference to the fashion industry as a modernized thing. You can't imply a limitation in his definition of "fashion" just because the explicit term "industry" appears later. This is especially the case because he implicitly defines fashion as "someone else" making an article of clothing, which strongly implies the modern fashion world.

Notwithstanding that, my second paragraph still applies. People are naturally going to stratify based upon attractiveness - you can't exactly wipe away the fact that some people are more attractive than others. As Albini himself states, that insecurity is human nature, albeit not a great part of it. If you wanted to get all theoretical about it, fashion is merely a manifestation of our desire to look attractive, which spawns from our desire to attract a mate, which is a manifestation of our biological need to breed. The fact that some people get wrapped around the axle about their perception of their attractiveness does not make fashion "ridiculous."

It's also a bit stupid to imply that fashion has no function, but that pornography does. It's like saying music has no function - both involve something arguably "useless" and merely aesthetic, but which bring happiness to some people. I may dislike screamo, but I'm not going to imply it's lacking substance - there's almost certainly some group out there that likes it.

>>11104512
albini had one good noise rock band in the 80's in big black, he hasn't done anything else of note. he's a shitty producer, and all of his other projects suck. fuck off steve, you're a hack.

>>11104781
>He's clearly talking about the industry.
He's not. "someone else" does not equal an industry, sorry.
>People are naturally going to stratify based upon attractiveness
Now you're attempting to move the goalposts, this discussion is about fashion, not someones innate physical attractiveness, biological needs, etc.
>It's also a bit stupid to imply that fashion has no function, but that pornography does.
Pornography has a function, to literally get the viewer off. What function does fashion have? Please, try to stay on the subject this time, we're not talking about clothing, we're talking about fashion.

>>11104512
I like Big Black but just like any other indie/underground artists, he's so pseudocritical.

>>11104690

I have an interest in aesthetics, visual language, culture and identity. I'm interested in fashion in the same way I am interested in a lot of other fields of design and fine art.

If you're going to ask me why I like these things i cant really go any further other than thats who I am and what I like.

>>11104512
That is shallow as fuck way to look at fashion
Not that I don't understand where those kind of feeling stem from but that's mostly how fast fashion works

>>11104818
Dude's a music producer, what "function" does that have?

>>11104835
The production of recorded music.

What about the music industry ? Their goal isn't even to entertain people, but to just entertain themselves. They want to look cool in front of everyone, and then everyone wants to be like them. It's a very pointless industry. Fashion industry is functional, they make it more convenient for us to not be naked. But music industry ? Why do you even need music ? What kind of need that music satisfies ? Especially indie music.

>>11104840
And what's the point of that?

>>11104849

Keep going down this road and it'll literally lead to questioning the meaning of life.

>>11104853
The point is that it's exactly the same road as with fashion. One group of people makes pretty things, another group of people makes pleasing noises. It's not fundamentally different and he has no place to be throwing stone.

If he was complaining about the corporate fashion industry and supporting small designers, that'd be ideologically consistent, but complaining about fashion -as a concept- is just being a hypocrite.

>>11104865
We aren't talking about music, we're talking about fashion. Why can't /fa/ stay on topic?

>>11104853
>>11104865

That was just a throw away comment by the way, I completely agree with you.

>>11104875
Because the man quoted is a musician, so it is relevant, sperg.

>>11104512
Has albini ever had a positive thought?
Had he done anything outside of shellac that didnt suck, songs about fucking sucks before thats mentioned.
Okay, producer wise hes okay.

i wonder what it's like to still be so angsty at 50 years old

>>11104893
>doctor
>lawyer
>waitress
His occupation doesn't invalidate his argument, he might very well say the same thing about music. It doesn't matter though because we're specifically discussing his point about fashion here, not music You can argue against his point or you can't.

Steve Albini is a stupid fucking faggot who does everything in his power to be as "edgy" and "different" as possible so this doesn't surprise me at all.

>>11104903

In Utero?

Steve Albini is really overrated. And he talks out his ass alot and is an edge lord.

>>11104711
I think some of the point is that he is disgusted by the fact that someone actually is capitalising on this insecurity (which by the isn't targeted specifically at "ugly" people, it's targeted at everyone). Yes, this insecurity will always be present in some shape, but it is the fact that someone has made a multi billion dollar industry out of exploiting this insecurity that he is attacking, isn't it?
I don't really know where I stand on this specific the subject, btw, I'm just trying to clarify.

>>11104935
>>11104781
>>11104818

>>11104917
you sound like you're here for a fight but nobody is giving you anything to work with

>>11104711
We could just implement a Harrison Bergeron sort of situation to try to force everybody to look equally attractive.

>>11104917
Not true, even though most artists(myself included) don't contribute like doctors or lawyers, art has its place. It's for the hard working lawyers and doctors to relieve stress and make them happy.

Well he's right. Unlike music which can be enjoyed in privacy fashion is very much about being seen in the here and now, because of this it is viable to not only exploit trends but also steer the direction of the industry. Fashion has always been about an "ideal" aesthetic and though ideal is up to interpretation it puts a meter to how well or poorly dressed a person is. Similar to music though there are different styles that can be chosen for whatever reason. Some dress to express or make their own "music" so to speak while other find a trend or genre they feel comfortable with. Clothing has an inherit function so all that's left is aesthetics. Fashion is a by product of a modern society and has as meaning as you give it. Those who give simple things too much meaning and fall into a position to feel exploited only have themselves to blame unfortunately.

>>11104948
Lawyers contribute nothing to society and live off of the exchange and complication of a simple punishment motivated method of rule.

Suing others basically is a slap on the wrist saying not to scam people

Prison system is "if you're not going to listen you live here for awhile"

As always money got in the way and leeches made their living off of the simple system

>>11104948
> most artists(myself included)
cringe

This is spoken by a very shallow person.
I like and follow certain aspects of fashion since I like aesthetically pleasing things and interesting settings and atmospheres
I dress how I dress because I like aesthetically pleasing things and like presenting myself with them and feeling comfortable.
This is fucking bullshit? Is art just capitalizing on people's insecurities, their deep feelings and emotions? Should we destroy it?

Get a grip faggot.

>>11104982
But he is a real artist he has a deviant art account with anime fan service/porn

And he does the occasional cosplay furry suit commission!

>>11104979
And by "modern" you mean...post bronze age? Because that's how long this has been going on.

>>11104941
I wasn't looking for a fight but I was probing. You're right though, there hasn't been much of a defense for fashion in this thread.

>>11105030
By modern I mean, a society where through technology and industry simple needs like food or clothing are so abundant that people actually have the time and technology to know and care about what's "fashionable" or "trendy" so "anything post bronze age" is a but of a shoehorning but sure whatever makes you feel smart. One could argue that ancient fashion is more viable then modern because it actually meant something to be well dressed. Now you could be stark naked, ripped and good looking and be no less fashionable then some chubby guy in an Armani suit. This is where exploitation of insecurities comes in.

for me, clothes and larger, fashion itself is something I enjoy to follow.

You could say video games suck people in to points of health problems and ruin their lives, you can say it takes advantage of their insecurities, to offer escapism.. among other things. It's broad but I feel like it works. There are other hobbies and whatever you can say that about too and that's exactly my point.

Fashion requires steep intellect, talent, poise in step with the changing tides, an innovative edge..

However it's active, isn't it? You're always on your feet, seeking out new ways to compliment and glorify the human form, really, in your own way.

I think out of all the things you could devote your life to fashion is one of the least bullshit options.

>but why male models zoolander kek

>>11104512
>make your own clothes

>have excellent self esteem at all times

>>11104672
Can't tell if mentally deficient, but clothing=/=fashion. Fashion is a popular TREND, especially in styles of dress and ornament or manners of behavior. It is not only relegated to clothing.

>>11105112
>Fashion requires steep intellect
i hope this is bait

>>11105162
might be trying to say a brand may be more prosperous if the head is a genius

>>11105169
i hate to tell anyone this but geniuses do shit like build the lhc. they don't sell skinny jeans to faggots

I absolutely love how some posters on here get angrily pedantic about words. It reminds me of college in the worst ways.

>>11104818
>"someone else" does not equal an industry, sorry.
You picked out one phrase in order to refute and made a bland statement about it. That's not a refutation of my point. My point is, in the sort of good old critical reading way, that he's clearly making a statement about industry. We can agree to disagree on interpretation, sure, but we're reading an interview transcript, the gestalt meaning is always going to take meaning over individual words because people don't speak in legalese.

>Now you're attempting to move the goalposts, this discussion is about fashion, not someones innate physical attractiveness, biological needs, etc.
Not at all. Again, reading comprehension. My point is that fashion has the function of increasing attractiveness which has the function of increasing reproductive ability. This directly refutes his assertion that fashion has no purpose. A very basic argument.

>What function does fashion have?
See above.

>Please, try to stay on the subject this time, we're not talking about clothing, we're talking about fashion.
You can't criticize me for moving the goalposts and then move them yourself. There is no proof that he's not referring to fashion qua clothing. That said, you're going to have to define the distinction here - you can't expect me to supply you with an argument premised around the distinction of fashion and clothing without defining the two in comparison, as there's no guarantee we agree on the distinction in the first place.

>>11104935
I think this is a fair point, but also amenable to attack. That could be said of a TON of industries: fitness, self-help books, etc. You could even zoom it out to human desire as a whole: food advertisements capitalize on people having a desire for food. It's all exploitative up and down the line.

>>11104512
this is annoying fashion at its best is wearable art right? I don't understand how this faggot who makes music can be mad at this. Plus the world isnt about just fucking pursuits that have function, let's do weird shit too that is fun.

Didn't Albini also say that jazz music is pretentious and boring? Fuck his opinions.

>>11105295
Only the desire for food is not an unhealthy one, unless of course the food is unhealthy. Coincidentally many of these industries have been hammered for praying on unhealthy desires. The classic examples are probably McDonalds or smoking companies.
Praying on the desire for indulging ones vanity to no end and no help is up the same alley, is what I'm guessing is the point.

And we can definitely agree that any writer of a self-help book has a very special place in hell reserved for them.

>>11104843
>Fashion industry is functional, they make it more convenient for us to not be naked.
>convenient

Fashion by definition promotes form over function and then charges a large premium for that.

>>11105675
i bet there's not a single dictionary in the world wich such definition of this word

>>11104865
>One group of people makes pretty things, another group of people makes pleasing noises.

Funny thing is that its usually the opposite. The fashion industry churns out, ugly, grotesque, or just bland novelty items that barely serve its function. On the other side, the music industry either churns out repetitive, obnoxious and uninspired tripe to safely market to young people who know no better, or certain independent artists who spew out abrasive noise that has no musical, or artistic to think of.

>>11105701

Fashion industry*

Does this satisfy you?

>>11105715
you're still thinking of -high- fashion industry. but fashion industy as a whole is Zara-tier inoffensive and normie-tier. they aim to sell as much as possible, so they adjust to the mass crowd's taste. you don't see much people walking down the street with their dicks exposed like Rick suggested, after all.

>>11105581

He is right tho.

>>11105054

>there hasn't been much of a defense for fashion in this thread

mostly because you already decided that you're right and you see any counterpoints as inherently deficient for disagreeing with your "correct" stance.

nobody has to defend or justify anything to you. if you think fashion is unimportant, cool. then don't participate in it.

if you are sincerely interested in "why" fashion should exist, you will ultimately get no answers--the same lack of answers you would get if you keep asking "why" about any topic.

guess what? the universe doesn't have values. all values are created by people, and therefore inherently artificial. you can either accept that artifice and then actually participate in life, or you can cry about how there's no real reason for anyone to do anything and everything's just a big social agreement based on nothing concrete blah blah blah.

i like fashion for the same reason i like other forms of art. and i find that people don't readily question the value of other things that people make. for instance, people don't question the value of sculpture--which in 2016 can mean everything from classical marble work to a crumpled up piece of paper under glass at the moma--but for some reason textiles are up for grabs when it comes to scrutiny? clothing is textile sculpture that we just so happen to wear on our bodies. there's nothing inherently wrong with wearing some textiles over others--you like what you like. and how you combine your various wearable textiles has encoded social meaning and aesthetic value. you may not have literally made your pieces of clothing, but you definitely make unique combinations of those pieces. every day when you get dressed you're creating a collage--again, it's just one that you happen to wear.

tl;dr if you question any human practice you eventually come to a void of meaning. get over it.

>>11105739

no, he's just bitter that he doesn't have the skill or knowledge to play anything more complex than power chords with a distortion pedal.

mind you complex, here, doesn't mean "better," it just means "complex." there's is plenty of music that sounds great that is made from simple chords and simple playing. and if you listen to albini's band, you'll find that his music does not fit into that set. it does meet one of the requirements, though, in that it's simple--which is not bad in and of itself. he just developed an inferiority complex about it instead of finding a way to make it sound better.

jazz is objectively more complicated to play than rock. that doesn't make it better or worse, it just means that playing it is harder to do. and steve albini can't do it, so he's bitter and has to call it "pretentious and boring" in order to maintain his self image as an important musician and producer. he sees what he's doing as in direct competition with jazz, which he sees as a threat to his ego, so he has to denigrate it. when in fact, both jazz and rock are fucking cool styles of music. it's the individual players and the composers/songwriters who determine whether the output from those styles is "boring" or "pretentious" or "any adjective"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_gx2Uc95os

too lazy to write up a coherent argument but fashion is important to looking good and it is ultimately down to your value system whether you like this or not. the reality is good looking, attractive, fashionable people will be considered better than you and if you are ugly and don't care about your looks you will be less popular, you will make less money, and you will appear less competent and ultimately be less successful in your life.

looked him up whoever the faggot is in the op. who the fuck listens to the opinions of musicians? jesus fuck make up your own fucking opinion instead of parroting someone else's. he's literally some random dude.

op is a fucking grade a idiot for posting this thread.

steve alibini seems to be focusing on shallow, superficial idiots out there who follow fashion and have no personal flair/style. but seriously he needs to stop giving a shit about other people, he sounds bitter and needs to get some self confidence and not put other people down.

>>11104512

the funny part is that inasmuch as albini derides fashion, he cannot escape it.

even in his "anti-fashion" stance and intentionally plain clothing, he's cashing in on a certain aesthetic--in this case the aesthetic of 'being against the big bad social systems like fashion'--in exactly the same way that fashionistas cash in on the aesthetic of, idk, being rich and beautiful.

the operation is the same with both albini and the fashionista. they are both publicly portraying a certain mode of life, which is ultimately what fashion is. clothing is a part of it, but it's really more holistic than that. fashion is the way you do everything, eg the phrase you do things "in a particular fashion."

both albini and the fashionista portray/live a certain lifestyle, and this portrayal is crucial to each of their livelihoods and self-concepts.

going into the public spotlight in old dumpy jeans and saying "fuck fashion" is no less a fashion statement than walking the red carpet in the latest dress by balenciaga. it might be a less expensive fashion statement, but money is hardly the point; the stakes at play are not financial capital (or at least, only tangentially financial capital), but rather cultural capital. and albini would have to be utterly deluded to think that he's not trading in cultural capital when he makes statements like "I hope GQ as a magazine fails." wow. such rebeliom, such rocknroll, many anti-establishment. albini rocker brand +60 street cred.

>>11104698
lol whats ur insta

>>11104659
they wear it for validation ob the internet, because they grew up socially stunted after being raised by digital media. the value of genuine human interaction has been lost to people that, in any other generation, would have still been socially crippled anyway.

The internet is this biggest aspect of their lives and identities, realize/admit it or not, and the validation of being dressed by the internet to feel like they belong with the other shut ins dressed by the internet (who all collectively more or less live online)

all very good points...although this is more geared towards fast fashion/trends. fashion in it's pure form is more of a form of art and expression.

albini is eternally caught in the perceptions of his youth, and his 20s were the 80s, hopefully that makes his comments more clear
I love him, but I wouldn't take his critical opinion on anything outside his domain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oem6gEEajZU

>>11106474
what are you expressing? that you like whatever trend clowns on the internet tell you to like?

>>11104711
Bateman correct as always

>>11104805
Since when is only having ONE good band an insult? For most people that's as much as they ever get and Big Black is good enough for him to have never made any good music after. Don't forget about all the classic albums he's produced.

>>11104903
Have you ever heard Atomizer?

>>11104512
tl;dr he says that dadcore suck, its a dying trend and it isn't a style. he is right.

He completely misunderstands what fashion is, because he thinks trends are is the same as fashion.

Fashion is about expression, just like art. What he doesn't understand is that not everyone caters to trends or thinks of what others think of them.

I dress how I want to, not after what is currently the most trendy. Of course I draw inspiration from the latest trends, but that doesn't dictate anything at all.