What does he think the Avengers should have done in New York? Gone home and let the WSC nuke it?
>>84184251
It's not about what they did its that they operate without oversight leading to more destruction than necessary in his mind. Take away the stupid death totals that weren't even canon numbers and it makes sense
>>84184251
But they were directly under the supervision of the government or whatever funds SHIELD.
>>84184269
What did they do in New York that he thinks they shouldn't have done.
>>84184251
The Avengers could probably do with some training
Wanda blew up a building because she didn't know what to do with that bomb.
Quicksilver got shot full of bullet holes even though he should have been fast enough to get Hawkeye and the kid out of there without getting hit
Vision shot his own team mate.
Plus they need oversight, letting Tony Stark invent whatever the hell he wants led to Ultron
Thor and Hulk ran off and now no one knows where these two walking nukes are.
>>84184251
Should they have not fought the alien monsters who were killing everybody? Should they have stood there and watched the monsters murder new york? Because they didn't have "oversight"?
>>84184269
how would added oversight have significantly reduced the collateral damage?
>>84184304
What should she have done with that bomb that she didn't do.
Who is going to train her in how to do it.
>"Tell me, Captain, do you know where Thor and Banner are right now?"
>Ross goes home after the meeting and crosses another item off his list of "How can I find the Hulk?" ideas
>>84184309
Exactly what was she supposed to do with it? Lift it higher?
>>84184304
Should Wanda have not done anything, and let the bomb go off and kill everybody on the ground?
>>84184304
>Thor and Hulk ran off and now no one knows where these two walking nukes are.
Thor didn't say where he was going? I thought he did.
>>84184325
Maybe.
>>84184320
I don't know why she had to move it at all.
It's not like an explosion is a continuous force. Couldn't she just have contained the explosion until the energy dissipated?
Maybe she was losing control of it and that's why she tried to chuck it up into the sky? I'm not sure, it was kind of unclear.
>>84184251
He thinks they should've submitted to his authority in advance.
>>84184325
Probably wouldn't have killed as many people as were in the building, plus no Wakandans would have died so they wouldn't have T'challa on their ass
>>84184339
I got that reference
>>84184329
He did. I remember Tony bitching about the scorch marks he left on his lawn when he returned to asgard
but then again, they don't actually know where Asgard or the other realms are
>>84184350
There were dozens of people in that marketplace.
>>84184304
>Wanda blew up a building because she didn't know what to do with that bomb.
>Quicksilver got shot full of bullet holes even though he should have been fast enough to get Hawkeye and the kid out of there without getting hit
>Vision shot his own team mate.
Never thought about this, but have comic heroes ''training arcs'' Because they get powers and just go with it
>>84184251
It was a metaphor for the liberal media spinning gun violence to take away personal responsibility. Russos are red pilled as fuck.
>>84184304
What they need is a guy with the superpower of being really great at managing other capes.
>>84184307
Anyone that seriously thinks the Accords are about people that died in New York or Sokovia are missing the point. Those were both incidents that would have ended far worse without the Avengers present; they were merely used by Ross to prey on Tony's guilt complex.
The Accords were more about the Nation States of the world and whether or not they can actually decide for themselves whether they want a team of superhuman clowns that make liberal use of a Hulk in their efforts to take down the resident war criminals that may or may not be committing war crimes in their homeland, and whether the risk is worth the force involved in dealing with it, instead of said team acting on their own judgement without any consequence for incidents of the international nature.
Basically, it gives a country like Brazil the ability to say "No" to the Avengers ravaging a favela to apprehend an arms dealer.
>>84184293
>If officials ever ask for accountability it means they wanted people to die!
Childishly narrowminded thinking.
I don't agree with the accords, I argue against them all the time due to how Steve pointed out they can and most likely will be abused by those less interested in regulation and more in controlling the presence or absence of superpowered individuals, but anyone with a brain can see where they stem from and arguing against it in such a self-absorbed way only gives credence to the very reason they were made.
The idea of oversight isn't to claim anyone can do better magically or that the heroes should let terrible things happen. It's so come a worse case scenario those involved with the operation can be debriefed and everyone around the world interested and obligated to the details can be informed and collectively move forward. That's just how professional organizations work. Everyone answers to someone.
The Avengers didn't really operate on that. They chose who they want to disclose information to, usually SHIELD who at best were associates not really their boss, as well as what and when. Which means every other business, bank, insurance, etc and most of the world who don't have SHIELD contacts have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I've argued for the Avengers before, so I already know they have reason to be cautious with things like HYDRA and information leaks and all that, but the people who aren't insurgents who don't know those reasons? Don't know those reasons. So without any kind of explanation in the form of a document about code of conduct, classification levels or some kind of agreed process they see it they're just getting the finger because the Avengers don't feel they need to explain themselves
tbc
>>84184718
Cap's a war hero, Tony pays for repairs, intel leaked by Widow has been unbiased in what it reveals about them, bad guys have been stopped blah blah. All great, but it doesn't actually explain or excuse anything. E.g. why the girl seen around the globe helping Ultron is with the Avengers.
Having to dig for information about these things instead of the Avengers explaining it doesn't build trust or faith, which is how it starts. If the vigilantes won't cooperate by choice the professionals who become increasingly frustrated with the ambiguity of their choices start writing up laws demanding answers and a say in future decisions. They don't give a fuck if it's fair, they've been dealing with feelings of unfairness as they receive no answer as to what Hulk was rampaging in South Africa for because Tony threw money at them as if to say they're not important enough to know why their city was trashed.
It also doesn't matter how well the heroes seem to a viewer since you're observing from not only a convenient perspective but one at a safe distance. The world in the MCU have to deal with the aftermath without context. They can't just take the word of Tony that there's nothing to worry about, or that it was unavoidable. People want answers like what even necessitates internationally transporting a volatile member like Hulk.
If some guy brought a rampaging asshole over to your house you'd want to know what's going. We have courts for this exact sort of thing.
I know Steve is a good person and Bucky's a victim, I've seen the movies but the SWAT dudes getting their shit kicked in have no idea what's going on, they didn't see those movies. They only have orders to kill this one terrorist bombing asshole and as far as they know Captain America showed up to push their shit in because he had nothing better to do. Should they shrug and assume anyone who walks in wearing a costume vetoes the law?
>>84184251
Just give me my cape in a post-apocalyptic setting.
>>84184251
Superhero harder and save more.
>>84184339
I try to imagine Papa Kent as the father of any of the Avengers and it just ends up with the biggest super villain the Avengers have ever faced.
>>84185245
Days of Future Past
>>84184671
also it gives a country like brazil the ability to keep supervillains safe from the avengers in exchange for money and favors
>No mister stark, no zemo here, only a 1b dollar fleet of attack choppers we suddenly had the budget for
>>84184251
The fact that fucking Ross is trying to enforce superpower ethics and law is hilarious by itself - and I hope they show the trainwreck it should end up being, rather than playing it straight as though he in any way deserves that fucking role. This is the man who damn near got his daughter killed several times and is responsible for the fucking Abomination.
>>84184304
>Wanda blew up a building because she didn't know what to do with that bomb.
She had it contained, but it was straining here, and sadly there was no handy active-explosion-absorption-box nearby. even under the accords, shit like this would happen. They are a plain power grab by the same people in power who have already tried nuking NY and been infiltrated by Hydra.
>Quicksilver got shot full of bullet holes even though he should have been fast enough to get Hawkeye and the kid out of there without getting hit
Dude, he was exhausted by that point, watch again. He has already had to stop and take a rest several times.
>Vision shot his own team mate.
Yeah... Can't argue with that one. I'm glad he did too, hopefully be will be a little less smug in future appearances.
>Plus they need oversight, letting Tony Stark invent whatever the hell he wants led to Ultron
I repeat, oversight from fallable governments and agencies that have already proven several times in the MCU (and probably dozens in 616) to be utterly inept, corruptible, and likely housing Hyda sleepers and royalty? Seriously? Shit as it is, watching AoS more than hammered it home how shitty an idea 'goverment' oversight is.
>Thor and Hulk ran off and now no one knows where these two walking nukes are.
Thor isn't answerable to anyone, and good luck making him sign shit, and pursuing the Hulk has never ended well.
>>84184305
>>84184307
>>84184309
>>84184325
Clearly it's just a power grab and attempt to control a percieved powerful tool.
>>84184671
Which is stupid in itself. Sure, on small scale stuff they probably shouldn't be there, but say the Kree invade - are they really going to say no to the Avengers saving their asses? If anything, they should have instituted laws that state the international 'scale' that a problem must fit before the Avengers (named on a list, no signatures) can legally act. otherwise they face criminal charges.
>>84184718
>>84184847
This.
I can see why oversight and holding them legally responsible for their actions. My problem is the accords are a clear power grab.
That said, exactly what would you enforce as far as responsibility? It's tricky, because you might want to sue [Hero] for all that rubble that fell on your car, or chuck with permanently crippled you, but there is no way to know whether that action was vital in stopping the entire city from being massacred and/or whether it was even their fault.
It's hard enough to build a criminal case in an untouched crime scene, let alone a clusterfuck alien warzone. And what if the hero gets pissy, and dcides not to save your country next time, because you fucked his friend up the ass in court and he's doing time in Super Guantanimo?
>>84184251
That wasn't his point at all.
He just figured if they're going to do what they do, and there's going to be collateral damage, best that they operate with oversight so that collateral doesn't fall squarely on them - but is instead more democratically spread, shared blame.
>>84185295
It was more about the 70s that the future. And the last time Singer has done a good movies, it was in the 90s.
>>84185613
Yes, they totally did all that just to protect the Avengers.
I feel that Cap movies are thematically inconsistent.
Winter Soldier was about blind faith into a closed circle bringing end of the world and Nazi Death Cult reigning supreme.
But Civil War defends the same blind faith.
>>84185651
Morelike to protect values.
Security. Safety. Equality. Democracy.
The Avengers, while acting without oversight by any body but themselves, fly in the face of those values.
Ross is a soldier He understands acceptable loss of life. He understands collateral.
But he also understands rank, order and the chain of command and what those values mean when it comes to protecting others.
On principal, The Avengers CANNOT exist without any sort of guidelines. So it's less about protecting them and more about putting another link in the chain to help spread accountability from one individual/group - to all those with a vested interest
Protecting the Avengers? No. Protecting people through enforcing the ideals of democracy. Including the Avengers.
>>84185740
Not really. Cap is not made out to be the objectively right party. Neither is Tony. They both had valid viewpoints informed by their personal experiences since they became crimefighters, and the movie lets the audience decide who they agree with.
Plus Cap doesn't really advocate for blind faith, he wanted the Avengers to be held accountable for when they made mistakes, and even believed that signing the Accords was just a way to shift the blame for the mistakes they had made so far, but he still believes political agendas and bias will warp their activities.
>>84185784
Thing is, pretty much everyone would be a better choice instead of Ross.
>guy who created Hulk and Abomination talking about responsability
Give me a break.
>>84185740
>defends
No, CW illustrates the system people have depended upon for years is not going to just lie down or give up, and the people behind it likewise are going to resist change.
Steve's speech at the end as he's breaking out his group out is about putting his trust in people to highlight that while Tony puts Ross on hold after seeing and experiencing first hand putting blind trust in the Accord M.O. instead of his friends resulted in a cluster fuck. Just to be clear Steve isn't saying that Ross is wrong or can't be trusted, he's specifically saying even if you doubt yourself it is vital to trust those who have earned your trust first and foremost.
>>84185740
Cap 1
>The Red Skull and Cap are both gifted with great power.
>How they are defined by that power, and how that power is used - the thematic bridges and chasms between Steve and Johan.
Cap II
>The misuse of power
Cap III
>The cost of power
>>84184329
He said he was going off in search of infinity stone related answers. Pretty vague, so he's presumably just bopping around space
>>84185784
He also understands that he is part responsible for the Hulk, Abomination, various black ops raiders on foreign soil (most likely unsanctioned by their goverments), damn near getting his daughter killed several times, and half the property damage and loss of life the Hulk and Abomination caused.
You could argue it taught him the error of his ways and why this stuff is needed, but damned if he ever learned anything, and isn't in the role purely to point out how hypocritical it all is. I mean, fuck, SHIELD was government funded and overseen, and Hydra had been pulling the strings on all levels of both SHIELD and goverment for a very, very long time.
Around the time of Civil War, Coulsons goverment agent girlfriend is killed by a higher up goverment Hydra agent because she rocked the boat. But yeah, goverment oversight, totally good.
The accords aren't even needed. Just international laws aimed specifically at superheroes. A hero ends up accidentally killing someone? try them for manslaughter, same as you would anyone else, with the same lenience and consideration for the situation you would a soldier or police officer. Masked and refuse to surrender themselves? Put out a warrant for their arrest.
At the end of Civil War you have the people who saved the earth in high security prison without a trial. That's just fucked.
>>84185789
This.
>>84184318
"They've gone to Longstanten Spice Museum."
>>84185864
I think you're placing too much authority on Ross.
He's a secretary of state acting on behalf of a united nations committee. He's in charge of overseeing the Sokovia Accords' implementation. Nothing more.
He still acts in accordance to A) The law which he didn't write, and B) The UN committee.
I think Ross' past makes him an interesting candidate for the role because he's been a big part of that world for a while. He's made monsters of men, sent men where they shouldn't. He's a walking contradiction - which is what Ross' always been. But that experience? That knowledge? His actions cost him his standing with the military, his rank, his health and his daughter.
THIS is his redemption.
Trying to make the world right by trying to reign the monsters in a little.
>>84185864
Tony really fucked up in allowing that to occur. I know if I was one of the people who sided with Cap, I wouldn't be trusting him even if we reconciled. Hell, if I was on Tony's side I wouldn't, seeing how easily he threw his comrades under the bus.
>>84185909
I'm looking it more from the artistic point of view. I agree from one point of view. But I do think the 'opposition' to Cap was built especially to have as many hypocrites as possible to enforce that it was the 'wrong' side.
Seriously though, it's a shame a lot of people dropped Agents of S.H.I.T because as bad as it gets at times, the story makes it utterly clear that the goverment(s) simply can't be trusted or oversee shit with any credibility. Aside from the above mentioned 'Inhuman' hunters who were in the pocket of a Hydra Agent, we had a honorable(ish) high-ranked military officer hand picked by the president himself unable to act against Hydra because they had taken his son, and later (?) because they had too much fucking sway in the government and business/wealth.
At the time of Civil War there are still Hydra at all levels of government, in all places. Hell, it's defining trait is you can't get rid of it. But let's potentially give the enemy of the majority of the films control over when and where the Avengers will operate, and against who.
>>84185975
I hear you with AOS. I've stuck with it, and I'm really glad I have. It's one of the best aspects of the MCU these days.
I figured Ross was a great thematic bridge between Cap and Tony.
Not only is he a military man who came from the lower ranks to where he is today, he's a self destructive hypocrite who crossed the line more than once. He's a great balance between the two.
>>84186035
>I've stuck with it, and I'm really glad I have. It's one of the best aspects of the MCU these days.
I have to admit, I've only stuck with it because I know elements of it and the background plot are important for a larger understanding of the setting (like, as above, how fucked the accords really are just on the basis of the hands that would control the Avengers). I've also enjoyed seeing that, really, SHIELD never collapsed. They just went dark for a while.
I think they could use some better writers and dropped far too many balls. Nor am I a big fan of spies, sadly. I've never been a big fan of SHIELD at the best of times.
If they had kept Ward around as an only occasionally wrench in the works, or saved his 'betrayal' for season 2 or even 3 (long after the Hydra reveal, giving us time to stop suspecting moles) it would have kept some tension. I can see where they were going with the Inhumans, but it all just fell flat. Skye is a massive mary sue, which is a shame, because the actress is pretty and quite good. May is and has been 'discount asian Black Widow' from the start, and it's just never worked. She needed to be a dramatic death in an earlier season.
Coulson and Fitz are about the best thing in the show.
>>84185481
And now you are starting to realize that, even when unjust, a clear hierarchy of power leads to more social stability.
>>84184342
Didn't she see Cap throw his shield into the air earlier?
I think (and this is just me theorizing) her fear of her own power meant she could not push it past the point she needed to contain the explosion.
Either way, it's worth noting that although Cap, (her mentor) blames himself for what happened in Lagos, he and the Avengers don't appear to be under huge heat other than the political kind.
The severe bollocking she was implied to be getting from the media and governments was derived from several poisonous factors:
> She's an immigrant with no home.
> No government or embassy to fight her corner.
> No one truly understands her powers.
> Her powers "look" evil and she is aloof and odd.
> She doesn't have the confidence to publicly defend herself.
> To religious nuts she is probably seen as the devil.
In all likelihood the Avengers could carry on functioning by signing up to the Accords and dumping/permanently retiring Wanda.
This would have still transpired without Bucky.
>>84184577
Wanda has one of the biggest "training arcs" in comics.
>>84186111
>DOOO SOMETHENNNGUH!
Those Fitz Feels get me every time.
Jumps through a hole in space to save Jemma Fitz > Indiana Jones Fitz > Brain Damaged Fitz > Perfectly fine Beta Fitz
>>84186112
Of course. I'm pro order in real life, and really, it's all corrupt to some extent.
I'm of the unpopular opinion that the Middle-East was better off under Saddam and getting rid of Assad is a shitty idea, because they kept the 'rabble' subdued if not ordered. We are just creating power vacuums and expecting democracy to pop up over night.
I just don't see the accords as even realy making sense, really. In the comics, having a register of the identities of heroes and registering powers as weapons made sense, but the accords are basically just making the Avengers into the tool of any Hydra plants.
All you really need is new laws specifically aimed at powered vigilantes, rather than specific lists. Tony and Banner (yeah, I know, like that would ever have happened) should have been tried for manslaughter and unsanctioned making weapons of mass destruction. Wanda should have been tried for accidental deaths/manslaughter, with the fact she saved many lives from a terrorist in the process. They know where the Avengers hang out. They can serve them. The accords are pointless, especially in the MCU, where secret identities are rare.
>>84185385
>Thor isn't answerable to anyone, and good luck making him sign shit, and pursuing the Hulk has never ended well.
Exactly.
>>84186658
"Um, now...I'm glad you all came here...it's a pleasure to see you all...Thanos, Mephisto, Dormammu, Shuma, Chthon, Red Skull, Beyonder, In-Betweener, Galactus, Ego, Death's Head, Kree leader guy, Odin, Set, Oshtur, Eternity, Cytorrak, Gaea...now...um, if you could just sign these Accords, because we will have to crack down on you if you don't...there will be consequences...stop laughing, Mephisto...I-I'm serious face now!"
>>84185414
they will surrender whatever the kree/skrulls/any villain's threat wanted, obviously.
>>84184251
>What does he think the Avengers should have done in New York? Gone home and let the WSC nuke it?
No. He thinks they should have died when the WSC nuked it. Especially the Hulk.
>>84184251
Bong here.
Cap's team in CW represents the concept of "American Exceptionalism". The idea that Americans are above international law and can intervene, "police the world", because they report to a higher power.
It doesn't matter if the other country wants their help or not, they're going to go in with drones a-bombing and guns a-blazing to force-fuck freedom and democracy on the populace.
The rest of the world has a VERY different view of CW than you burgers.
>>84184251
It's Man of Steel threads all over again
>>84186893
>It's Man of Steel threads all over again
MOS was an allegory for the sort of destruction and death the American military sows in its neverending quest for "democracy".
If you cant handle seeing your infallible heroes toppling buildings onto innocent people and blowing up apartments in order to stop "the bad guys" at any cost, then you aren't mature enough to handle the reality of the "war on terror" in Iraq and Iran and what you're government is really doing to people.
>>84186785
Are you really this dense?
>>84186868
You might have it a bit twisted there, Limey. If anything Tony's side represents the sort of teabiscuit dipping fuccboi who bends over to the royal order and gets buttfucked in the pussy for it.
>>84185245
Ex-Heroes by Peter Clines
>>84187032
Murricans are the only people who believe in Murrican Exceptionalism.
It's a joke to the rest of the world.
>>84187032
Not the same bong, but I'm going to have to lay some sobering reality down on you.
There's a reason every Captain America film has had to be advertised as a tie-in to the Avengers franchise; as a prequel or sequel to an Avengers movie.
It's because there is no appeal to Captain AMERICA outside of AMERICA. Honestly, look inside your belly and ask yourself if you, as an American, would co see a movie called "Captain Brazil" or "Captain Italy".
You would not. And the rest of the world isn't particularly interested in the masturbatory exploits of Captain AMERICA.
The theater I saw Winter Soldier here in London was virtually deserted and that was opening weekend. The only way to entice the rest of the world take even so much as a passing interest in your patriotic circlejerk of a character is to promise that it'll lead into a better film where Captain AMERICA is only a bit player.
>>84184251
>What does he think the Avengers should have done in New York? Gone home and let the WSC nuke it?
The Accords is ideologically sound, but practically unworkable. It is a great idea that there is some legal framework that superheroes could work under... But the Accords isn't that framework.
Yes, it would be nice if there are rules. But if the rules sucks and are unworkable, then what is the point? You can't have rules for the sake of having rules, the Accords are badly put together, made in a hurry for political reasons, and don't function at all
All the pro-Accord arguments are using ideological arguments on how there need to be rules, but neatly avoids the fact that the actual accords are not worth signing. All because the politicians who made the rules weren't interested in making sure the Avengers can save anybody, but just wanted to score political points for their short term re-elections.
>>84186868
Cap's side doesn't represent that at all, as cap doesn't serve the USA's interest. He just stops bad guys. People died because a terroist set off a bomb and they just couldn't contain it. If they hadn't been there in the first place (dealing with the UN, ESPECIALLY in the marvel verse, they wouldn't have gotten clearance in a million years) a whole lot more people would've died.
Tony, at the end of the movie, went ahead behind the UN's back because getting clearance to go confront Zemo would've taken too long. Had Zemo been another big bad, the accords could've potentially fucked everything up.
You only see it as a metaphor for American Exceptionalism because that's what you want to see and what you think Cap represents.
No one cares that you're a pom.
>>84187130
I'm a bit sick of casuals thinking captain america is masturbatory shit over how great america is. TWS had no "AMERICA SURE IS THE BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH" shit, it was a solid action movie with spy thriller elements about a war vet who's friend has become a corrupted by the same people he fought in that war effort. It's also a movie about the org that's super secret and ran by the US Gov being infiltrated and brought down from the inside and somewhat of a fish out of water movie for good measure.
Very little america jerking in there.
Even comic cap has barely been THAT ham fisted in decades.
>>84187060
>a joke to the rest of the world.
Funny, in about 3 days from now four score and a bit ago a certain country had about enough of being shoved around by a group of tossers a sea away from their shores and decided to stand up for themselves and take leave from under the group.
I recall a certain kingdom recently taking an abridged page from that book. I guess they missed the Editor note stating 'twas all in jest.
Then again I hear there are certain differences between American and British english, perhaps something you said was lost in translation and you meant "the rest of the world is a joke to it".
>>84184307
It wouldent have
>>84187150
The Captain America films have almost as much U-S-A! U-S-A! wank in them as a Michael Bay Transformers film. Especially First Avenger.
Tell me again about how you twats singlehandedly won WWII. We love hearing that one.
>>84184304
Like the fuck Thor has to answer to human authorities. Ever.
Wanda throwing the Explodo-Bones upwards was the best solution there. Casualties would have been higher had she not got him out of that crowded market. Bad luck that the Wakadan people were in the building it went off next too.
>>84186926
Kek.
>>84187353
TFA was about Cap going against Red Skull, retard.
Hell, TWS and CW are about going against the government.
If spidey lives in Queens, how come he goes to school in Midtown?
>>84187130
Actually, as a bong myself I have to disagree, because he doesn't represent AMERICA so much as the original laudable values (that none of the elite actually went along with, but that's besides the point) that are universally admired. Freedom, honor, loyalty and family. Plus, his origin is tied to WW2, where the western world came together, so he is just as much a symbol of that.
>>84187408
>he doesn't represent AMERICA so much as the original laudable values (that none of the elite actually went along with, but that's besides the point) that are universally admired. Freedom, honor, loyalty and family
He's taking those values and placing the American brand name on them.
Freedom, charity, courage, etc. are not "American Values". They're basic human values to aspire to. America has no business trying to put their label on them, as if they're something they invented and hold exclusive rights to.
>ITT: salty bongs
>>84187437
It's not that we did it first, we just did it the best.
>>84187466
And let's not forget the merchandising!
>>84187462
>thinking only british dislike your usa-wank
Anon, in my country "little american" is an actually used insult, meaning "naive, misinformed , shallow"
>>84185245
The later parts of Worm.
>>84187466
>best
>freedom, honor, loyalty and family
>in current america
No, you did not.
>>84187580
>current America
They did it best, I never said they kept it up.
>>84187600
>honor
Mhmmmhmm...maybe in the days of rebelling against the brits
>loyalty
same as before
>family
I don't think you ever were more close to your families than how it is in a southern europe country.
>freedom
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Come on, you guys were a pro-free-market state owned by bankers since day one.
>>84187546
>only Americans want to themselves
>>84187408
Hahahaha.
Were you that twat in the cinema we threw popcorn at? You got up and walked out, didn't do shit. Wouldn't be shocked.
>>84187643
>*wank
FUCK YOU AUTOCORRECT QUIT STIFLING MUH FREEDOM OF SPEECH
>>84187668
How many countries do you know that are actually insult in different languages?
>>84187700
>How many countries do you know that are actually insult in different languages?
In Japan, any delinquent is referred to as a "Yankee" because they associate violence, mischief and crime with Americans.
>>84187717
Oh.
Interesting. So you are an insult in two countries.
Maybe more.
Fun stuff.
>>84184307
Oversight isn't about stopping that shit from happening. It's about having someone who will answer issues that arise due to their involvement in various incidents. Training would also help given that they literally started pulling people with powers off the street to fight battles.
It's not like anyone could stop Crossbones from blowing a bunch of people up one way or another, but someone needs to be accountable when that shit happens, not Cap whining "but hydra is everywhere, we don't have to answer for shit".
On the other hand, trying to incorporate the team in to some sort of UN military force who only acts when a beuracrat tells them to is the other end of "this is fucking retarded".
>>84187758
>So you are an insult in two countries.
>you
Piss off. I'm a bong and insulted that you'd refer to me as an American.
>>84187700
And? I just think it's kinda funny that America makes a couple of harmless cape movies, and apparently everyone gets their fee-fees hurt.
>>84187758
>Interesting. So you are an insult in two countries.Maybe more
There isn't a single country on this planet that doesn't loathe and despise Americans.
Which makes it all the more amusing when they produce movies that try to paint themselves as heroes.
Burgers are pretty much public enemy number 1 to everyone else in the world.
>>84187825
>Burgers are pretty much public enemy number 1 to everyone else in the world.
You should go outside for a walk or something. Get some fresh air.
>>84186658
What do you mean exactly, just because they've signed the accords doesn't mean they won't do whatever the fuck they want whenever the fuck they want. All it is is a way to give the governments some false sense of power. Even if they were answerable to the accords and did sign it there's no fucking way that they'd stop doing what they percieve to be the right thing because some stupid cunt in a suit said so, Tony instantly broke the accords in the fucking movie, imagine what the rest of them, who are even less convinced by Ross' shit, would do.
>>84186868
Bong here, you're wrong. Cap's side represents the idea of morality over societal and legal acceptance. The rest of the world doesn't have a very different view and to claim Brits are any less responsible for "force-fucking freedom and democracy" is retarded.
>>84187873
>You should go outside for a walk or something. Get some fresh air.
I would but I'm afraid an American drone might drop a bomb on me.
I put some oil in my hair this morning.
>>84187912
>Cap's side represents the idea of morality over societal and legal acceptance
And AGAIN, the problem is that the side of moral superiority is personified in a character named Captain AMERICA.
Burgers are trying to label morality as a uniquely Murrican concept. They want to trademark it and make it synonymous with themselves.
It's all just propaganda.
>>84187398
Magnet School.
We have a rough measure of familiarity with America's infamy based on derisive use of its name, now how often do you think other countries are mentioned in America?
Well first you take the number of times they've competed significantly in the arms and space race, then divide by their significance in general and you get a mathematical error.Because you can't divide by zero.
Great thread guys
>>84187933
Whatever you say Mr. Bong
>>84187933
It was propaganda. In the 1940s. When Cap was created and America literally was a moral superior over their enemy the fucking Nazis. They were trying to label their own fight as moral, which it was, not trying to make it a uniquely American concept. The fact that you don't understand that Cap represents the fight against oppression and evil everywhere and not just in America proves how much of a literal retard who takes nothing at more than face value you are.
>>84184307
It's not about that. It's re-assuring the world that the Avengers aren't the Justice Lords and won't march down wherever they like and eliminate whoever they think is guilty.
>>84185481
>My problem is the accords are a clear power grab.
Better for power to be divided among many than in the hands of 6 people who can override all other laws.
>>84185789
Both the Hulk and the Abomination were created when those guys injected themselves with Hulk juice without Ross' knowledge or permission.
And Ross wouldn't be the one in charge, the UN would.
>>84185414
You DO realize they have the ability to say yes, right?
Just because they can say no doesn't mean they will in most circumstances.
>>84188092
>You DO realize they have the ability to say yes, right?
Only after months of argument. And after everyone who could have been saved are already dead.
>>84185624
The comic dingus
>>84188010
If Burgers aren't trying to copyright morality by stapling it to a propaganda character, then they should discontinue that propaganda character or at least change his name and costume.
There's a reason Iron Man movies make more money internationally than Captain Burger movies. No one gives a toss about him outside of clueless murricans and the rest of the world can see through the bullshit.
>>84184718
This isn't really established in the movie universe, though. We don't see any of these people as dangerous. Even the Hulk, who has knowingly hurt no one in these films. People didn't die because Wanda was fucking around or because she just didn't care, they died simply because, as far as the audience can tell, her powers weren't strong enough to protect everyone or she didn't have enough training (even though they pull off complicated maneuvers in these movies and are calling out commands to each other, suggesting they've all had extensive training together)
>>84185385
I want Thor to come back to MCU and literally just quote this to Ross.
Just, the whole thing, scene for scene.
>>84185784
>Ross is a soldier He understands acceptable loss of life. He understands collateral.
Every single bit of evidence to the contrary.
>>84184251
So, what you're honestly saying Ross is responsible for not only driving the Hulk to destroy when he wasn't a threat, creating the Abomination, but it's ALSO HIS FAULT HE FRACTURED THE AVENGERS AND MADE HALF OF THEM AN ANTI-GOVERNMENT CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION AND MADE THE OTHER HALF UNTRUSTING OF OVERSIGHT?
So, where is HIS fucking oversight, again? He's clearly a bigger threat than anyone on the Avengers', execuse me, EX-AVENGERS', roster.
>Avengers under retard Ross' control
>if you don't agree, pic related
Why would ANYONE side with this.
>>84189100
>Everything Ross touches turns out the opposite of what was intended.
>He's in charge of oversight.
The only thing that needs oversight in all of these movies is Ross.
Civil War wasn't a movie made for Americans.
I think that's why you guys are having such a hard time understanding it.
>>84189122
No, it's confusing because the comics had a very solidly defined political theme to them and the movies pussied out and went, "Mom and Dad are getting divorced, let's cry!"
So we have to fill in the fucking blanks for closure's sake. Stop making this an anti-American circle jerk.
>>84189151
>Stop making this an anti-American circle jerk.
We will when you twats stop making "LAND OF THE FREE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE FREE WORLD" masturbatory cinema.
Twat.
>>84189151
>the comics had a very solidly defined political theme to them
That the writers couldn't even agree on. It ranged from
>These people know exactly what they're doing
to
>These people have no idea what they're doing
On both sides from day to day.
Though I guess that is politically accurate really.
>>84188598
Might happen in Ragnarok. Hulk has to come to Asgard somehow, if in fact much of the movie takes place there. Perhaps Iron Man tracks Banner down, and tries to take him in, and Heimdal at the instruction of Thor brings him up and Tony with him.
Then, this scene can play out as is, when Tony tries to insist Thor signs too.
I doubt it, but it would be nice. I'm actually just really looking forwards to the adventures of Thor and Hulk.
That said, I expect the scene in some form, as it has become pretty famous. It's almost as well know as Cap's 'you move' speech, and that got adapted into Peggy's eulogy.
>>84189177
>I hate AMERICA!
>Posts on US website.
>On a Western comics board.
>About US specific comics.
>>84188267
Sorry but you're just wrong, they make plenty overseas, especially as a % of total gross and changing the name or costume of the character completely misses the purpose of what he was created for at the time and the entire history of the character. Just because you're using it as a reason to hate America don't drag the rest of us Bongs down with you.
>>84188267
>#VoteRemain
>>84188267
>No one gives a toss about him outside of clueless murricans and the rest of the world can see through the bullshit.
How does it feel to be so astoundingly, embarassingly wrong?
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=captainamerica.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel14b.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel2016.htm
>>84189100
Ross wouldn't be the one in charge under the accords.
Wanda didn't get thrown in the raft because she disagreed with the Accords. She got locked up because she was a violent criminal who can't be detained without retraining her arms.
She is just as responsible for Ultron as Tony is (but unlike Tony, had only spiteful motives for her actions), helped Ultron nearly destroy the world, intentionally unleashed the Hulk on a bunch of civilians, and when the government said "You can't play cowboy cop anymore" she turned violent.
It's already illegal to be a vigilante. The Accords were just creating a way for the Avengers to exist legally.
>>84189070
>reating the Abomination
Ross didn't do that.
>but it's ALSO HIS FAULT HE FRACTURED THE AVENGERS AND MADE HALF OF THEM AN ANTI-GOVERNMENT CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION AND MADE THE OTHER HALF UNTRUSTING OF OVERSIGHT?
Ross didn't write the Accords.
>>84189530
>(but unlike Tony, had only spiteful motives for her actions)
You don't get away with murdering someone just because you say you weren't angry at the time.
>>84188435
>Even the Hulk, who has knowingly hurt no one in these films.
In the very first Hulk movie it's stated that he's killed a few people, and the footage shown from New York shows at least one person getting crushed under chunks of a building that the Hulk knocked off.
Plus Tony, Wanda, and arguably Bruce are all responsible for the destruction of Sokovia, and Wanda intentionally made Bruce Hulk out in South Africa.
>>84187386
That's the only reason it turned into an international incident. Wakandans think they're the goddamn center of the universe. Society would have never cared about a handful of Africans dying via collateral damage otherwise.
>>84189530
>The Accords were just creating a way for the Avengers to exist legally.
And thus, hindering their abilities to do anything.
>>84189484
>>84189344
All those numbers are skewed by China. American blockbusters are released un subbed and undubbed in China. They only go to see them for the special effects, not because they appreciate any sort of pro-American message.
The only country your Captain Burger films succeed in is a country where they can't understand the dialogue. If they knew what the characters were saying they'd want nothing to do with the films like the rest of us.
>>84189547
>Ross didn't do that.
That's like saying Tony didn't make Ultron, it was the mind gem. Fact is Ross selected the candidate, gave him the initial therapy, gave him access to the Hulk, put him on the path to fighting the Hulk, then AFTER taking him off the mission lost TRACK of his SUPERSOLDIER and NEVER ONCE TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.
Sounds exactly like Tony's case here.
>He didn't write it!
No, he was there to get them signed and enforced. What did he do? Failed. Not only did he fail he failed in EXACTLY the opposite of what ANYONE ELSE WITH A REASONABLE ABILITY TO POLITIC WOULD HAVE ACCOMPLISHED.
Anyone else would have said, "Well, if that's Tony's decision I wish him the best of luck in the future," and just moved on with Tony and the those that agreed. Simple. And Tony would have STILL ASSISTED AS HE COULD.
Ross?
He just fucked it up.
>>84184304
you really think tony would let himself be supervised by a government watchdog?
kek.
>>84189548
It wasn't murder. It was manslaughter.
If you accidentally kill someone while trying to hurt someone else, you absolutely will face harsher legal consequences than someone who accidentally killed someone without intent to harm anyone.
>>84189638
So you watched it then? :^)
>>84189640
Blonsky went rogue and injected himself with Hulk juice.
>No, he was there to get them signed and enforced. What did he do? Failed. Not only did he fail he failed in EXACTLY the opposite of what ANYONE ELSE WITH A REASONABLE ABILITY TO POLITIC WOULD HAVE ACCOMPLISHED.
He explained the Accords in the most polite and reasonable way possible.
outside of straight nuking the avengers, how exactly do you hold the hulk or thor accountable if they don't want to be?
That was my thing, Clearly these people want to help the world but antagonizing them for your own insecurity about your safety isn't gonna help. Should they receive more training? Sure, but considering we live in a country where police can killed unarmed citizens and get away with...marvel citizens have priorities mixed up
>>84189609
That's what checks and balances do. They exist because impeding someone from doing some good is a lesser evil than allowing someone to do great harm.
You don't place absolute power in anyone's hands, including the Avengers. The whole "But they could get so much more done if they could act unilaterally!" argument is one for a dictator.
>>84189609
In a funny way this is the situation. In their particular universe individuals have far more power than governments. In a weird way, governments are outmoded.
>>84189683
So what? Ross had every indication Blonsky was out of control. AND he was a supersoldier ALREADY to boot. And commands are 100% responsible for their soldiers, that's how it works in the Army (whether you like it or not).
That's like saying Tony should still be responsible for Ultron even though Ultron was sentient and could make its own decisions to be evil (and thus absolve Tony). Which pretty much undermines the Accords to begin with.
And being polite doesn't equate to right. Or meaningfully handled. Shit, even after Tony supports the Accords Ross continues to demonstrate incompetence in his inability to appropriately deal with Tony.
>>84189659
>So you watched it then? :^)
Yeah, in an empty cinema. Well, not entirely. One shithead was there. We threw popcorn at him and he walked off. In retrospect we did the twat a favor.
>>84189754
Also didn't say we paid to see that pap. Paid for something else don't remember what went into the screen playing Civil War. Load of shit.
The whole thing was a ruse to put the Avengers under Ross' command. While having the blame for collateral damage on the whole UN. Which effectively makes the Ross Avengers blameless.
Unfortunately, or thankfully, depending on viewpoint, Zemo's plan interfered and stopped. Ross' plan.
>>84189754
>It was empty.
>Well, there was other people.
>Well, I was with a group.
>Then I sat through the whole thing and got triggered because it wasn't about MY COUNTRY HOW FUCKING DARE THEY?!
lmoa @ ur life
>>84189754
Jesus Christ you sound like such a little faggot.
>>84189874
And you sound like a burger.
It's funny how your action movies and other rubbish try to portray you as such tough guys, especially your military. We followed one of your boys in the camo outfits a few blocks, calling out to him and he kept walking faster and faster. Never confronted, never manned up. Eventually went into a shop to get away.
Your boys in the jungle patterned pajamas are the biggest pussies of all.
>>84189915
This is literally a, "I'm the toughest guy on the internet," meme come to life now... lol My fucking sides.
>>84189960
You wouldn't last five seconds on our side of the pond, burger.
>>84189985
>I would totally kick your ass! You must be a burger!
I'm laughing even harder now... OMFG I can't breathe. It's like listening to a teenager scream and throw a fit in their room about their parents.
>>84189985
Your side of the pond is so scared of guns you're almost Japan-levels of unequipped.
>>84190038
At least Japan has knives.
>>84189773
I feel sorry for that poor bong. He just wanted to enjoy a nice night out at the theater, and instead had it ruined by some 12 year old spergs.
>>84190059
>I feel sorry for that poor bong. He just wanted to enjoy a nice night out at the theater, and instead had it ruined by some 12 year old spergs
The way he twaddled off without saying a word and looking at his socks he was probably murrican.
Would explain he was there to see such a shit film, too.
>>84190059
Is this what they call a, "Chav?"
>>84190033
>not the first post be this IP
lol so mad
>>84190082
>Is this what they call a, "Chav?"
Are you what they call a "tosser"?
>>84188063
YOU ARE WRONG, IT IS BETTER FOR POWER TO BE ALLOCATED TO DOOM.
GIVE ME YOUR COUNTRIES
>>84190109
Seems I touched a nerve. :^)
>>84187033
yes i love those books. Read the first and second on only tho, the rest are half hazarded.
>>84189915
This is because uniformed soldiers are held accountable for their actions at home and abroad.
You were being protected by the integrity of the US military.
>>84190082
Nah, him and his lads went chasing boys down the street. They're what's called a Poof or a "British Cigarette".
>>84190178
correct i meant the first 3.
you know why the avengers need to not be regulated becasue what theu didnt with isnt regulated by the laws of earth or nature. You want the u.s govement trying to take over the negstive zone or asgard? You think the top brass of the military know what to do with dormamu or galatus? The nature of superheros is a indivual or small group can change the world ans the world isnt as boring as it seems. The goverment regulating heroes goes against that narrative.
>>84189750
>Ross had every indication Blonsky was out of control.
What indications?
>>84189772
The Accords placed the Avengers under the control of the UN, not Ross.
Also, the Accords passed and are still in place at the end of the movie.
>>84190427
>The Accords placed the Avengers under the control of the UN, not Ross.
No, it only technically gave UN control. But the UN's only job is to take the blame, as Ross only obeys the US government, and would only report to the UN what the US government want him to report. This is how the UN works in real life.
>>84190327
>You want the u.s govement trying to take over the negstive zone or asgard?
The logical conclusion is they wouldn't necessarily try to take over it or all of it at least, just police who goes in and out at a location between Earth and wherever else. Like country borders operate.
Also being uninformed as to how to handle a threat does not mean government officials just shrug authority, they tend to bring in experts and advisers to assist their operation when outside their element not throw the responsibility of their country and citizens or Earth entirely onto a stranger with unclear awareness of the consequences of their actions and possibly few or none of the resources requires and in this case I speak of information gathering and pull politically not physical power just so we're clear. By operating alone a vigilante can get a lot started unhindered, but they can also get little accomplished while juggling a thousand things.
For example in Guardians of the Galaxy it was only until Quill teamed back up with the Ravagers and requested assistance from Xandar's authority were they able to challenge Ronan instead of just provide a small nuisance. Of course it came down the Guardians dancing away their problem alone through the power of hand holding, but the point is some of the task had to be spread among the capable parties trained to do those things.
As for the narrative this is really just an evolution of things, as time goes on a lot of concepts from their original design will adapt and adjust accordingly to reflect the current or possible beliefs or address them. If the narrative stagnated it would be the same stale scenario over and over, which would basically mean there's no point making any new comics or tv shows or movies if they're all a stencil of the same thing from 10 years ago to 10 years later.
There's legitimately nothing wrong with Ross' point. Just because you have power doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. Even if it's helping people, because then how long until it becomes playing favorites?
The accords were completely reasonable. Cap's the asshole in this situation for not even bothering to give them a chance. But it's not like it matters, since the movie dropped all the interesting shit to be about Bucky.
>>84190186
>murrican soldiers
>accountability
You can only pick one, fatty.
>>84190728
>There's legitimately nothing wrong with Ross' point. Just because you have power doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. Even if it's helping people, because then how long until it becomes playing favorites?
Correct.
>>84190728
>The accords were completely reasonable.
Incorrect.
Your assumption that your first paragraph supports your second is your error. Yeah, oversight is fine, but Accords is just crap.
>>84190806
What is unreasonable about the Accords? It's pretty much the most fair compromise possible.
God damn, British people are obnoxious.
>>84190859
>What is unreasonable about the Accords? It's pretty much the most fair compromise possible.
What kind of compromise? The UN doesn't actually ever do any kind of rapid respose in emergencies, it is designed to take months to do anything. All that the Accords does is to give control of Avengers over to the US government under the command of Ross, as that is the only way Avengers could function at all. And that meant the US government gained the Avengers and the UN is just the legal shield.
>>84189915
Why were you harassing soliders? You know he wasn't going to do anything. If he did you'd be telling a story about American soldiers being undisciplined thugs.
>>84189745
Correct.
But this needs to be finely balanced. TBQH people like Thor, Wanda, Vision, and Hulk should only be deployed during alien invasions and such.
Lagos should really have been entirely left to Cap, Widow, and Falcon. That way it would be viewed as a millitary op, ironically more people would have died yet it would have been far less controversial.
>be supervillian
>go to random country
>bribe government officials
>avengers cant do shit to me because the UN tells them they can't
>>84190949
Hey man I've met a couple of bongs, most of 'em chill folk. Don' lump 'em all with Spergy.
>>84184288
No, they left on their own and were not under SHIELD during the fight in NY.
>>84184251
You think any government likes a team of superheroes that answer to nobody to run around and do what they want? It was all about control.
The Ultimate Avengers 2 comic actually covered this in what would have happened if all the Avengers followed military orders. They went into a foreign country and took down some militia but it pissed off a bunch of nations.
I doubt the Accords would be for the UN to use but the shadow officials seen in Avengers 1 (that may have been Hydra) using the Avengers as their hit squad and setting it up to look like they were bringing peace to a troubled nation.
>>84191869
>I doubt the Accords would be for the UN to use but the shadow officials seen in Avengers 1 (that may have been Hydra) using the Avengers as their hit squad and setting it up to look like they were bringing peace to a troubled nation.
Rhodey very specifically says that it is NOT the World Security Council.
>>84190186
I've met a number of American soldiers here (Londonistan).
They're all overwhelmingly arrogant, insufferably self-important, and extremely quick to pick fights with strangers.
They also can't drink worth a damn.
So while I don't care much for chavs, they make for better company than a US soldierboy.
You know I think this thread is the first time an internet tough guy bong combo.
It's pretty funny stuff.
>>84193344
Have you never been to /pol/?
It is packed with shit-talking bongs.
>>84193361
I generally only go to /co/ or /tg/ since they're dedicated to things I actually enjoy.
>>84190078
>The way he twaddled off without saying a word and looking at his socks he was probably murrican.
I've noticed that about Americans. When confronted, they always seem to flee from conflict. They never stand up for themselves unless they're in a very large group. And even then, when one of them is attacked, no one ever comes to their defense but just stands around and watches.
Americans really are nothing like their movies portray them. Certainly, they can't fight.
The worst thing about the Sokovia Accords is the overblown importance of the UN in the film.
The UN is completely useless in real life. Why does Marvel try so hard to make the UN look so fucking powerful in the MCU?
>>84194101
The UN is a front for the US, China, Russia to push their agendas, so it is absolutely relevant.
>>84189530
> Can't stay in Wakanda for very long, will have to leave pretty soon.
> Probably AFK when Thanos starts fucking Earth.
> She's likely going to have to somehow resist the urge to lash out (and destroy everything) when Vision gets his head ripped off in Infinity War...and thus she will have to let Thanos win at the end of Part 1.
They should have waited for approval from the UN before doing anything
>>84191869
The World Security Council was hydra, or at least Gideon Malick was. It was revealed in AOS.
>>84188236
Oh... Ok.
>>84185385
>speed based hero
>ever getting tired
>>84184251
That's not the point anon of the accords
>UN can take some credit and not look incompetant when shit goes wrong
>Avengers don't get blamed when shit goes wrong
Only retards like elevator mom think the Avengers shouldn't interfere with anything. The UN wouldn't have told them not to fuck up the chitauri
>>84193401
Yes anon, all Americans are cowards. Why, it's imbued in their very DNA! It's not like people are individuals and can therefore choose to not act needlessly agressive because of some bongoloid on a anonymous image board. Nah, everyone in America is exactly the same!
An internet board about a comic book-the perfect place to show people how tough i am
>>84198101
After half a century of constantly painting all Europeans as surrendering cowards (especially the French), I think it's poetic justice that Amerifats are now being stereotyped as sniveling pussies by the rest of the world.
You brought it on yourselves.
>>84198211
Way to miss the point, you moron.
>>84198211
Europeans aren't portrayed as surrendering cowards.
Just the French.
