Okay so, new 52 ruined all my favorite teams and characters, I'm sure some of you can relate. When it comes to Tim Drake in particular, I had to stop reading Teen Titans and almost everything else because I was so annoyed. Last I remember, Tim Drake wasn't really Tim Drake but was actually some other fuck with his name given to him by witness protection or some stupid shit. Also a computer hacker who was never really Robin.
With Wally returning to the universe in rebirth, with memories of the pre52 universe intact, I know I'm excited to read Titans Rebirth. Will they ever fix the things I want them to fix? I hope that that's Willy's goal, to put everything back.
>tldr what did new 52 do to Tim? Can we fix it?
Is Rebirth a good thing? So far it has me interested again, but I haven't been on /co/ in a while so I'm not sure what the buzz is.
I require additional bro grabs
>>83569527
Tim will be in this week's Detective Comics, where he will be one of the principal characters. Word isn't out on whether or not they'll fix his clusterfuck backstory, but if it happens at all now is probably the time.
He's not in a Titans book anymore, Dick is on Titans and Damian on Teen Titans, though yes, Wally's story will probably play out in Titans.
I'm curious to see what they'll do with him in 'Tec.
I only read batman and batman-related characters,and I don't know where did this "n52 sucks" meme came from.
Other than catwoman most of the n52 reboots where better than the previous iterations
>>83569763
>Damian in Teen Titans
>they're HIS Titans now
Barf.
Worst Robin. He makes some sense under Grant Morrison, but everywhere else he is written like the edgiest Mary Sue. He is the best at everything and he knows it. I hate him. Where's that picture of Tim punching him?
>>83569831
You never read Tim Drakes Robin, young justice, Teen Titans, or Red Robin? Jesus Christ bro.
It also isn't clear what kind of a teen Titans Dick was ever a part of ,, and that sucks too.
>>83569763
Jason's a tire thief again now, so I don't see why they wouldn't have fixed Tim's while they were doing that.
>>83569869
Eh, I like Damian. His last solo, Robin Son Of Batman by Patrick Gleason was excellent. But I like Tim too, and I agree that he got massively fucked over in the reboot, and I want him to get better. Actually, his entire generation of heroes - like Cassie, Bart etc. - got rekt and I think it's a shame.
>>83569947
That's why I have hopes it might be happening.
>>83569947
Wait, when was Jason not a thief?
>>83569907
I read Batman,Nightwing, Batgirl,Red Hood and the Outlaws, Batwing, Batman and Robin, Detective Comics, Catwoman, Suicide Squad, and The Dark Knight and liked everything other than Catwoman
What else do you recommend? Is We are robin any good?
>>83570017
The tire origin is back
Lobdell originally did something like him stealing drugs from Leslie or something
>>83570017
>Wait, when was Jason not a thief?
Actually in New52 he was an even worse thief,Batman caught him stealing drugs from a clinic... and then took him in to make him Robin. Naturally this was all due to the machinations of that wiley Joker.
>>83570026
Those are all new 52 I stopped reading most bat books after death of the family sucked.
I'm talking about the fantastic bat family content, specifically centering around Tim, that is entirely missing from the continuity now.
>>83569763
>Jason's a tire thief again now, so I don't see why they wouldn't have fixed Tim's while they were doing that.
No he's not.He got caught by batman by stealing drugs from the hospital as seen in Red Hood #0
>>83570026
We Are Robin was pretty good, and one of the protagonists, Duke, will be Batman's new sidekick in Batman. Grayson (Dick's solo) is good, and Robin Son Of Batman (Damian's solo) is also good.
>>83569869
Tim sucks.
>>83570094
>>83569869
Found it
>>83570132
Tim is a crybaby.
>>83570123
Naw dog.
>>83570148
It was a very emotional time dude. His dad died, then Bruce died, then Dick told him he couldn't be Robin anymore. You should read Red Robin.
>>83569947
Wow fuck lobdell. He's the same guy that ruined teen Titans. He fucked up Tim's backstory and Jason's. He kinda fucked up Dicks story in Red Hood and the outlaws too.
>>83570095
Retconned in few weeks.
>>83570296
Where?
>>83570321
Leaked art from the new RHaTO show a flashback to him stealing the wheels off the batmobile.
>>83570026
>He liked The Dark Knight
Truly his taste is beyond salvageable.
>>83570321
>http://www.newsarama.com/29041-dc-rebirth-first-look-red-hood-the-outlaws-retells-jason-batmans-1st-meeting.html
Good art and the return of the old origin actually gives me some moderate hope for this book (it won't last).
>>83570026
>He liked The Dark Knight
Anon why
>>83569869
>but everywhere else he is written like the edgiest Mary Sue.
Define Naruto Sue
Damian was a mistake, Tim should have stayed Robin.
>>83570669
I think "the naruto generation" whenever I think of Damian.
>>83570764
because of ten year old ninja?
>>83570406
>>83570640
Sorry,I meant Batman Incorporated ,I did not read The Dark Knight yet.Do you mind telling me why is it so bad?
>>83570764
The funnt thing is Damian fans loving him because he is edgy and pretty much a 90s character while bitching about Jason
>>83570728
Tim is a Mary Sue.
>>83570780
Yes. Also being a Mary sue, more of a Sasuke then a naruto (forgive me for knowing this). Tim wasn't a good fighter, that alone made him a more interesting character to read.
>>83570816
Jason is a crybaby.
>>83570816
He may be edgy but he's not using guns!
>>83570838
Hardly. He gets way less attention than Dick and Damian or even Jason does by his friends or ladies. He is a far worse fighter than either Jason or dick. He is relatable because he's a thoughtful, nice young man, like young men reading comics want to be.
>>83570816
>>83570764
>The funnt thing is Damian fans loving him because he is edgy and pretty much a 90s character while bitching about Jason
Wrong. We love because he has tons of good character moments, learns from his mistakes, while still keeping his arrogant behaviour who makes his interaction with other characters more interesting
>>83570841
.. To me, Drake was a terrible Robin, a boring hero.
>>83570841
>Also being a Mary sue
Naruto wasn't a Mary Sue, the story starts with everyone finding him annoying and being afraid of the fox
>Tim wasn't a good fighter, that alone made him a more interesting character to read.
I love Tim, but that's just silly, being bad at fighting doesn't make him more interesting
of the four "proper" Robins, Tim is my least favourite as a character. As a character, I don't particularly care for him all that much, he's too similar to Bruce in some areas, and in the areas he's not as similar, I feel they make him a little boring.
>>83570914
Nah you just like him because he is an edgy kid that somehow is smart enough to be a genius but still has "kid's moments" where he acts like a child.
In other words a shit character.
>>83570902
>Shows up knowing who Batman and Robin are
>Everybody immediately likes him
>His training is specifically to make him better than Jason
>Constant women in and out of his life
He was a Mary Sue
>>83570920
I said more of a sasuke type then naruto in particular.
Tim was a little boring but he wasn't brash or arrogant like the other robins. I related to him personally so he felt like my Robin. I like that he was the underdog in the family. Damian was never feels like the underdog. He feels like a Mary sue.
>>83569527
Even when Tim got his own Red Robin solo series with the "Batman: Reborn" event in 2009, he still carried over a lot of the traits that made him seem vanilla to me.
>>83570988
But again, what you seem to be saying is that the big positives about Tim are that he's really smart, comes from a normal home but wants to fight with Batman, and is a natural leader. That still sounds like more of a fan-insert than a whole character unto himself.
I also don't think that being a good detective is the defining characteristic that makes Bruce interesting, it's how his childhood trauma has set him on a personal vendetta against what he felt destroyed his life. It's that struggle that makes him so interesting to read. Tim is just too uncontroversial in my opinion.
>>83570988
I've never seen the appeal to Tim (and Kyle Rayner for that matter). I kinda think that it's nostalgia that keeps people in love with him
>>83570978
Nobody likes him and and he was never better than Jason at anything besides detective work. He had his fair share of girlfriends, no more so than Dick. He is without a doubt the biggest nerd of the bunch, and I don't mean that in a flattering way
>>83570988
Define Mary Sue
>>83569527
The whole self-insert Mary Sue aspect of him really gets on my nerves, like other everyone always his the best choice to replace Batman and now he gets to be Batman in the future over Terry.
>>83571066
>Nobody likes him
How much Tim Drake have you read
>>83570988
I think the biggest issue is that he only really worked as Robin. He doesn't work very well as someone who used to be Robin.
>>83570971
>he believes that
>>83571121
I'll take defined and set personality traits over blank-slate self-insert Drake
>>83571080
Best at everything and everyone loves you. Like Rey in Star Wars or that Hedgehog in that Teen Titans comic where he fucks Raven and cyborg hits the showers
Tim's not the best at everything and all of the villains like Joker know he's not as good as the old boy wonder, so he has to prove everybody wrong.
so far from what I've seen, Rebirth hasn't had any real continuity changes. Just the sort of 'revealing new information' sort of retcons. But in reality its still the New 52 Universe.
Take that any way you like.
've just never found Tim that interesting, to me he was just a younger version of Bruce who didn't have the qualities that made me find Bruce interesting. If I had to rank the Robins he'd probably be last (or Stephanie).
>>83570971
>>83571130
Red Robin was great.
>>83571121
A lot. Of course people like him, I'm being hyperbolic. He's not nearly as beloved by his peers and fellow Hero's or even Batman as much as Dick. He's was not even made leader of the Titans right away. It was Cyborg.
>>83571164
But nobody loved Damian, Dick was the only one willing to try. Tim hated him, Jason thought he was annoying, Steph was constantly fighting with him, he had almost no interactions with Cass and Babs. Talia and Ra's were just using him, and Bruce was constantly frustrated by his fuck ups.
>>83571237
I'll post these every time I see someone say that Damian is just an edgelord.
I want Tim to have good stories too, but Damian is a child soldier who broke free of his programming, and that's a pretty interesting angle.
>>83571266
Then I just can't relate to him because he's self important and treats people like shit. I relate more to Tim because of his character traits.
I'm sure my age has a lot to do with it too. I grew up reading Tim Drake.
>>83569527
The Robins got utterly fucked over
Dick lost all of his friends
Tim lost everything about him
Damian was basically reset as a character
They finally decided not to make Jason into a psychopath and went with the much preferred anti hero motif but hes far to connected to the Batfamily
Tim Drake is the most blatant self-insert character ever.
>>83571360
You never read Amadeus Cho?
>>83571314
He doesn't need to be a complete edgelord to be completely hate worthy.
Tim Drake is a whiny, two faced, and angst-y Mary Sue character ...
>>83571360
Totally Agree, can't stand the douche, wish he would die in a fire
>>83571407
Can you define mary sue please? Because it must be nothing like how I define it.
>>83571164
>>83571132
>goes from being a master tactician trained in philosophy and other humanities to lol bat-cow! because I am just a silly kid after all with an IQ on par with Tim and a better education!
>>83571221
>>83571237
>killed who knows how many people
>literally covered in blood
>b-b-ut it's not edgy! you see? he has feelings awwwww
Literal the "tormented soul" of the dark and edgy character trope
Fuck off already
>>83571463
>responding to Damifag
Go and knit something if you're that bored.
No character has grown and developed more than Damian did in his short life. He was interesting to read, because he shook up everything. He was your typical spoiled brat to begin with, but as time went on he softened. He started to learn a more virtuous way of life. Through all his disrespect to his father early on, he was still seeking his approval. He was just a misguided little kid, and by the end he was fun and sympathetic. We, the readers, felt we had gone on this journey of self-discovery with him.
Not only that but he was the best Robin. He had the best costume and the best weapons. I've never liked Robin until Damian took the mantel.
Sympathetic maybe, but fun...no.
>>83571494
Thanks for the advice /co/mrade. I have been away too long.
>>83570971
an Solo, Edmund Blackadder, Spike from Buffy, Wolverine, Avon from Blakes 7, Tyrion Lannister, the Grey Mouser, Batman himself... We as a species tend to like snarky, rogueish jerks in fiction.
>>83571508
>I have only read comics with Damian by the way
It's funny because Damian is cool and everybody hates Tim!"
>>83571557
None of those characters go around bragging about who their daddy is.
Cos why eat vanilla (Tim) when you can enjoy chocolate (Damian), you know?
>>83571624
Because some of us like vanilla. He had his only special place in the family. Now he's nobody.
>>83571624
Arabs are ragheads, not chocolate.
It's sad that it always has to be a vs thing. I like Tim, and I like Damian. Damian's been better written for a while, so now I want Tim to escape hell also.
>>83571655
HAHAHAAHAHAH
some aspects of Tim Drake's character than have always annoyed me, and how the Internet's obsession with him can be explained.
>>83571685
Well, I think we've reached a breakthrough in this discussion.
>>83571667
Tim is a Mary Sue, It feels like they tried too hard to make him badass so they just got rid of amy flaws.
>>83571667
heartily apologize to all Tim Drake fans when I say — he is ... He is the proto-fanboy, the male equivalent of a Mary Sue
im's perfect in such a squeaky Mary-Sue way I actually had a double take. He's perfect at gymnastics, perfect in school, ...
He was ruined when they killed his dad during a shitty event
>>83571748
What are you specifically talking about when it comes to him being a Mary sue. I don't remember Tim ever being the best at everything.
>>83571682
>Batfamfags
>not ever getting to vs thing
Giving X-fags run for cancerous money, tbqhwyf.
>>83571863
It's weird to me because most Robin fans I know like all of them to some degree, even if they have a favorite or whatever.
>>83569527
Tim Drake was ruined long, long before New 52.
>>83571797
How can anybody say that Tim is a Mary sue when you compare him to any of his counterparts? Dick, Jason, and Damian are all twice the Mary sue Tim ever was. Especially Dick. Man Dick is good .
>>83572283
So nobody ever picked up Red Robin, or was I the only person to really like it?
>>83574102
>So nobody ever picked up Red Robin, or was I the only person to really like it?
Only the first arc was good. The rest ranged from bad to mediocre
>>83574232
That I can agree with to a degree. First arc was great though.
>>83574383
> tim so kawaii
>>83574102
>Dick, Jason, and Damian are all twice the Mary sue Tim ever was.
Define Mary Sue
>>83574608
>Define Mary Sue
Tim Drake.
>>83574608
Dick Grayson
>loved by literally everyone
>even his enemies love him
>everyone wants to fuck him, male or female doesn't matter
>could literally and has taken the place of Batman multiple times
>etc.
>>83574727
Dick is probably the one Robin who is actually a Mary Sue
ruining tim is one of the reasons I don't buy DC anymore
>>83574608
None of them is a "Mary Sue", or else every comic superhero is. It's a term about an obvious wish fulfillment character inserted into a fanfic, it doesn't really work in-universe. Especially not superheroes, where almost everyone is handsome, gifted, smart, and rich or otherwise successful.
Dick, Jason and Tim were self-insert characters for the readers, which is a little different. Damian and Steph were more like, stunt characters. But all of them have grown past that since then.
>>83574608
Tim is a close second worst
The worst is Jason
>>83574608
I think I defined it pretty well before
>>83571164
I have more questions about rebirth. Are they going to find Dr. Manhattan and kick his ass? Where is that going to happen? Titans? Justice League? How is classic Supes going to fit in with this universe? Is he going to give a shit about Conner Kent?
>>83575403
>Are they going to find Dr. Manhattan and kick his ass? Where is that going to happen? Titans? Justice League?
No idea.
>How is classic Supes going to fit in with this universe?
He's in universe all way before Darkseid attacked and JL got formed.
>Is he going to give a shit about Conner Kent?
Literally no.
>>83575403
>Is he going to give a shit about Conner Kent?
lmao
As Damianfag I would gladly give Tim his role in TT back.
>>83575403
>Are they going to find Dr. Manhattan and kick his ass?
Yes, but in 2 years and it's not gonna be a physical battle
>Where is that going to happen? Titans? Justice League?
It will start in Titans with Wally investigating, but obviously won't end there
How is classic Supes going to fit in with this universe?
He'll be the main Superman
>Is he going to give a shit about Conner Kent?
No one give a shit about Conner
>>83574833
>Jason
>Self insert character
Just no
>>83575550
>Yes, but in 2 years and it's not gonna be a physical battle
Constantine steals Manhattan's underwear, Bueno Buenos him.
>>83575181
Then none of them are Mary Sues, you're no better than /v/ throwing around cuck
>>83576786
I was the one on the defense buddy. I defined Mary sue in such a way as to illustrate how Tim couldn't be one. I love all the robins, some more than others, and I felt like they didn't all make the transition to new 52 very smoothly. It's everybody else that was flinging Mary Sue around. Besides you sound just like a cuck to me.
>>83575550
>No one give a shit about conner
I thought Geoff Johns might, since he basically wrote a lot of Superboy from young justice to teen Titans, as well as infinite crisis and all that shit he was involved in, including his ongoing bromance with Tim. It seemed like Conner was becoming a more central character and a protege to superman. Then the young justice TV show and the new 52 teen Titans completely butchered him. Now Superman's got a new kid and Conner is forgotten.
>>83577873
Lol just found a quote about it from Johns.
"Very, but at the same time, what happened with the New 52 was that a brick wall had been built between that and everything that had happened before. In my mind, it was like a brick wall, and it felt like, say, the version I read of Raven wasn't the Raven I'm reading now. It felt like the emotional connection I had with the character broke. I'll tell you a character specifically, and I'll be candid about it: Superboy, Connor Kent.
One of my favorite characters of all time, and I had a great time writing him in Teen Titans, and I loved writing him in his solo run [in Adventure Comics]. They reintroduced him in the New 52 and he was so different, so vastly changed, that I couldn't connect with the book that well. The emotional tie just severed, and it didn't sever in the way that made me angry, it was worse than that: I had apathy for it. I didn't care anymore."
>>83569707
So Barry remembered old Wally but still had to deal with new black Wally? Or is this Return?
>>83578957
I think there's two Wally's now
>>83577980
I love Johns shitting on the new 52
>>83575513
Tough. Now Damian has to shoulder that curse.
>>83569763
Tynion is a self professed Tim fan, so hopefully he'll undo all of Lobdell's bullshit.
>>83580941
At least he has Super Shotas to star in as well.
>>83569763
Titans and Teen Titans are two separate teams now?
>>83581015
They were before
Titans are for the characters who are too old for TT but too unimportant for JL
>>83581015
Yeah they were separate pre-Flashpoint too.
>>83580977
I'm still not sure if they're trying to recapture that old audience. They must know people who enjoyed the previous duo would rather just have them back, right? Is there an untapped shota market?
>>83581015
They were always two different teams.
>>83571197
Massive continuity changes are coming in the next two years, in whatever sequel Rebirth will have
>>83570132
>18 year old his 11 year old brother
>the hero
kek. no wonder he's irrelevant
>>83577873
Conner will be back. Johns loves him as >>83577980 shows. I'm just wondering what name he will take, since Jon is the new Superboy.
>>83577980
Wow. Even Johns hated the New 52 Teen Titans and Superboy books.
>>83583073
Not even DC can defend that shit. Almost all legacy heroes and the JSA were royally fucked up. That's a big chunk of the DCU.
>>83571262
Of course Cyborg led the Titans right away. Why wouldn't he have. You DO realize that Starfire is leading the Rebirth Teen Titans, right?
Tim was beloved by the writers. To the point where the EiC campaigned to kill off Dick Grayson to give Tim Drake more room to breathe. I don't know when you started reading comics, but from the late 90s to, literally, the second Grant Morrison took over the Bat-titles, Tim Drake was being written as the hyper-competent heir apparent to the Batman.
>>83583189
>You DO realize that Starfire is leading the Rebirth Teen Titans, right?
I thought Damian was running that series?
>>83574727
Did you ever actually read Prodigal? The moral of the story was that nobody but Batman could ever really be Batman, but Bruce loved Dick regardless of his failures. Even B&R ended with Dick as the hostage, needing Bruce to come rescue him.
I mean, Dick as the most attractive man in the universe is totally a thing, but the rest of it...
>>83583272
He's the one everyone's probably buying the book for, but I cant see DC being able to justify a 13yr old leading a bunch of technically adults.
>>83583272
He's trying to take leadership by force. The first arc is probably him learning why it's bad or something.
>>83583532
Starfire is the only adult, the rest are children
>>83583532
From the announcement:
>Teen Titans with writer Ben Percy and artist Jonboy Meyers shipping monthly beginning in October. "Damian Wayne essentially decides he's going to lead the Teen Titans, and nobody wants him to, so it's Robin versus the Titans," Johns said.
So Damian intends to lead the team, although I don't know how long that will last.
>>83570191
yeah, Tim had it hard
>>83583598
They've de-aged everyone? I thought BB and Raven were on the later side of their teens in the last Titans, not sure about black Wally, In any case he seems to be the youngest there which would explain >>83583684.
>>83583786
I'm not sure if their ages have been stated.
>>83580918
That's the best part of Rebirth. Some of the commentary is really on the nose
>>83583532
>>83583598
But they're HIS Titans now. Whether he's leading or not he'll be an annoying brat
>>83583189
>>83583189
I agree up until you say hyper competent. He wasn't. He was played up to be the smartest of the three, whereas Dick Grayson was the most physically gifted. I don't know what the fuck Jason was good at.
In every story I ever read with Tim, it was very clear that he was less qualified than the others, like Bruce and Dick, to handle any given situation. I don't remember him ever doing something over the top. I think the craziest thing he ever did was beat up Cassandra Cain, but that story was badly written from the start.
The memories that immediately come to mind involve him needing help often. He also adopted the powerpole because he wasn't a great hand to hand fighter (not like Dick and Jason)
>>83580977
I hate this new superboy already. Does he need to have torn jeans. I just know he's going to be the first LGBT in the Superfamily and my soul can't take it.
>>83580977
>>83584839
I was so distracted by superfag I didn't even notice how edgy and gaudy and terrible Damian's outfit is. Perfect for Crimefighting
>>83584577
The hyper-competent Tim showed up in Tim's solo during the Willingham run around when Tim creates the fake uncle and moves to Bludhaven. It may have a lot to do with changing tone across the board (new editor) but it was a huge shift in his competency levels and it kept on going from there.
I mean, by the time you get to Red Robin, Tim is soloing a group of Ra's' elite never-been-beaten assassins while single-handedly dismantling his operations.
>>83571463
Mary Sue means at the same time hyper competent and reader insert. It means no one can ever agree who is a Mary Sue.
>>83570191
Tim lost his dad, lost his city, lost Kon then Bart a year later (both his best friends), one gal he loved died (Stephanie), the other in Cassandra got Slade-juiced and evil for a bit. That was all in the space of two years of comics.
To add that to the top of fuck Tim had it rough, he got messed up by the Anti-Life Equation.
Being Tim was suffering until Red Robin.
>>83586768
>lost his city
>Bludhaven
>Tim's City
kek
>>83586768
>lost his city
Bludhaven was Dick's city, not Tim's.
>>83587690
>>83587760
I can't believe he cheated on Gotham.
>>83587780
Tim could've cheated on Gotham with any city, but no, he chose the city that raped Dick.
Man, I just want Tim and Kon to be bros again.
>>83590054
You'll get Damian and Jon and you'll like it
>>83569831
The Flashverse got eviscerated in the New 52. DC seems like it might be fixing that though, so I'm cautiously optimistic.
>>83590108
But it's not the same!
>>83590604
The YJ crew are done for anon
>>83590635
I've given up long ago, even if I still had some shred of hope that something good would of been done with them, but it never came.
>>83585659
Yeah, but he lost badly in a fight with with ra's'. He almost died. And he almost bled out in a desert. He stopped one plan and he did it with help from EVERYONE. He founded have done it alone. It wasn't perfect, but would you rather he lose? Would you rather see him lose every single fight? Maybe then he would be too "hyper competent" for a super hero.
>>83592334
He couldn't have done it alone.
Damn autocorrect.
>>83570978
>>83570978
A mary sue makes the story about themselves and instantly resolves drama.
Tim did none of that. Also, Bat-Fans bitching about Sues is the richest pudding.
>>83590054
>bros
>not lovers
say what
>>83590807
one day I'll write for DC and I'll fix everything anon
>>83570978
he's also the cutest
>>83578957
He remember the 10 years removed version of white Wally. He didn't remember old Wally and Wally had to fill him in. It's why he asks if things are his fault because he doesn't know.
>>83590054
lol "bros"
"You'll always be my Robin"
"You'll always be my clone boy"
>>83593992
>le batcharacters are sues meme
Fuck off already
>>83584839
>I just know he's going to be the first LGBT in the Superfamily and my soul can't take it
>Because the little nigga has ripped jeans
Fucking kill yourself bruh
Also, Apollo will be the first LGBT in the Superfamily if Orlando has anything to say about it.
