>"I always had a really hard time getting into Superman as a kid," Joe Russo admitted. "There just wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there for me. I loved Batman. He’s the one DC character I really loved. I found that Martian Manhunter was the Martian Superman. Wonder Woman was the female Superman. There was repetitiveness in their characters."
http://uproxx.com/movies/russo-brothers-captain-america-civil-war/
Not even the Russo Bros. care for DC heroes, outside of Batman. Which begs the question: Is the odd assortment of alien/god-like heroes in DC Comics the reason why it's so hard to translate them from comics to films? Is that why Batman so easy to make films of?
It's a matter of effort.
They made Clark flawed, vulnerable, relatable in MOS and people got violently asshurt.
>>82502615
this
>>82502615
It's really weird though. Superman was only flawed and vulnerable because of Pa Kent's meddling. If Clark had done what he wanted, he would have ended up the Superman we all know.
>MCU is made by batfags
>>82502666
Take it up with Ayn Rand, satan.
>>82502527
This honestly makes me respect him less. Everyone just wants to repeat and perpetuate the same tired bullshit, it's so annoying.
>>82502527
because they are right
Flash, GL and Batman all have that human component that people like and can relate. They are like Spiderman.
Superman is supposed to be ispirational but all heroes are ispirational so he isn't that unique other than the fact that he is the GOLD STANDARD and thus people should care for some reason.
>>82502673
Well so is the DCEU so I don't see what the problem is.
>>82502527
>>82502673
not sure how I feel about this
as opposed to genius scientist iron man/reed richards/spider-man/dr strange/black panther/antman 1/hulk/etc.
>>82502527
I give up. No one will ever make a good Superman movie or game or anything. Morrison and Eco were the last ones to do so. I just... give up. Do as you wish, Batfgas. Fill the medium with darkness and cynicism. Fill it to the brim with edginess.
You win.
>>82502786
Genius scientist with an alcohol problem. Genius scientist with a family. Genius scientist with a shitty job living with his aunt.
Meanwhile at DC half the characters are "I'm super powerful and here's my alter ego that nobody knows what to do with"
They're not wrong.
>>82502527
so what about Vision?
When i meet vision immediately Martian Man Hunter came to my mind...
>>82502722
>that human component that people like and can relate.
Superman is human in all but physique, thought. That's, like, one of the basics of the characters. GL and Flash are roughly as powerful as superman. And Batman is less human than either of the other 3.
>They are like Spiderman.
I'm guessing you are trying to express what the general audiences think?
>>82502842
let's also not forget that Superman in most iteration is loved by everyone, the city loves him, has a nice girlfriend and friends
Tony has very few friends, a lot of problems and gets shit on constantly
let's not even begin with Spider-Man, with JJJ turning the city against him, Spidey not being able to protect the people he loves very often, trying his best and still getting shit on
>>82502786
This is actually a good point, b/c half of the protagonists in the MCU are the same. Half of them are the same rogue-ish, witty, smartass who use their sense of humor to cover up their insecurities. Like Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Scott Lang, and in the future, Spider-Man.
>>82502527
>muh OP Superman
>Wonderwoman is a female Superman
>Martain Manhunter is a martian Superman
Why don't normies read before judging.
>mfw this is what my friends believe
>>82502900
>le alien that is more human than humans
>he is here to show how humans should act and be because he is so much better than us flawed humans!
>>82502950
>>he is here to show how humans should act and be because he is so much better than us flawed humans!
Considering how shitty most people are, and how Superman is a genuinely nice, kind, moral person, that's not that far from the truth.
>>82502822
>The only two choices are between Superman and Batman
Jesus talk about tunnel vision. Why don't you watch a little Ant-man, anon? He loves his daughter and doesn't afraid of anything.
>>82502615
I think it's because of a failure in the balancing act between cynicism and idealism.
>>82502822
>Batman
>darkness and cynicism
What, the underline theme of Batman is hope against all odds. A set of characters trying their hardest to bring hope in a city like Gotham. He is been like that in the comics and movies for years.
>>82502717
yet he is right about Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman
>>82502527
Invulnerability doesn't mean a thing in comics. Even the characters who are "vulnerable" to dying will never die, because they are the main characters of their stories. Even if they DO "die", they eventually return due to some contrived plot.
So anyone who uses an argument like "Superman is lame because he can never get hurt" simply doesn't undsrstand the character.
And this bullshit about "character repetitiveness" is commonplace in Marvel too.
>>82502991
it's easier to just blame everything on Batman and ignore all the other heroes people like
>>82502979
then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have
>>82502527
>We will never get a good Superman movie because literally everyone are Batfags
>>82503010
WW REALLY shouldn't be just a female Superman. I mean, by nature of her being a FEMALE Superman at all, she should inherently be quite different from Superman, just because the male and female experiences and consciousnesses are quite different from one another.
No one would be saying this shit if more people had a grasp on the character. She should be non-violent and more overtly sexual like in Earth One.
>>82502901
>Tony has very few friends, a lot of problems and gets shit on constantly
It's because Tony is and always has been a fucking asshole and Clark/Superman is a decent human being. Yes, human being.
>>82502527
So, they didnt read Supes. Good, now they can work for DC also.
>>82503025
This. You can tell who doesn't read comic books by who says shit like this. You can bet that 99% of the time, the good guys in Marvel will win and save the day as well. It's all just repackaged bullshit.
>>82503034
>then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have
Superman probably has a shitton of problems himself. His problems are just on a grander scale.
>>82503067
yes, Tony acts like a real human with his high and lows
meanwhile Superman is the perfect nice guy out of some generic novel
>>82502527
> I found that Martian Manhunter was the Martian Superman. Wonder Woman was the female Superman. There was repetitiveness in their characters.
As opposed to the completely original marvel characters Hyperion, Gladiator, the sentry, thor, Black Bolt, Blue Marvel, the other Hyperion, etc, right?
>>82502901
People got massively assblasted when they tried to make superman a controversial figure and possible threat. Also superman's responsabilities make spiderman's look like a grain of salt. (And he would probably be the first one to tell him that what he does is just as important)
>>82502950
Well, yeah. He's a farmboy at heart. Raised by a nice couple from Kansas. He's also an extremely humble journalist who struggles to get the girl in the original incarnations.
>>82503034
>then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have
You sound like a fucking pussy, anon
>>82503035
It's so much easier to be a piece of shit than a good person.
>>82502615
The problem was they failed to make him likeable
>>82503131
the only people that got mad are the superman fanboys
if you talk about MoS the majority didn't like it because it's a Snyder's movie
superfags bitched so hard they are now bringing back the pre-52 superman to please the fans
>>82503131
>(And he would probably be the first one to tell him that what he does is just as important)
Snyderman would probably topple a bulding while learning on it to brood about the evil men do, then cry and fly away to Arctic to talk to ghosts for few days.
>>82503025
suspension of disbelief anon.
Yes anyone reading knows Cap. America/Bat-man isn't dead when the Nazi Dinosaur try's to swallows him but we all wonder how is he gonna get out of this one because he is limited to solutions.
Super-man getting eaten by a Dino? Not as exciting because not only is he near invulnerable to it but his power set leads to such a ridiculous amount of solutions(Eye beams, frost breath, flight) the fight it's over before it started
Even with the Hulk there is some level of excitement because he has to at least hit it or smash something.
>"character repetitiveness" is commonplace in Marvel too
That is very true
I will say that's very true but always give DC props that they at least work with that and try and get you on board with the repetitiveness rather than most of Marvel where unless it's in the family (Spiderverse, Hulk family etc) they pretty much write on off as a joke or just throw them away only to dig them out when they need someone dead
>>82503119
Read some comics please.
>>82503202
that's not an argument
but that's the only answer you Superman fanboys can use
>>82503119
>Generic novel
Nah, it's pretty rare a generic novel with a character like superman. It's cool to bring good people down nowadays. People don't like moral standards becuae they feel like it's patronizing, even thought
>>82503010
Wonder Woman's origin is completely different. She's also a warrior and crosses lines that superman wouldn't. I just mentioned like 10 marvel characters that are more like superman than wonder woman.
>>82503199
This is why you give Superman threats that only HE could deal with. Morrison does it all the time with no problem. Why is everyone else so unimaginative?
Disappointing to hear, but hey just because some one knows fuck all about DC doesn't mean they don't know about Marvel. Russos have done good by Cap
>>82503241
He's right, thought. If you talk shit about a character you haven't read about, why should anyone take your argument seriously?
>>82503199
>suspension of disbelief anon.
No. Don't give me that bullshit. This is comic books. Where a human dressed as a bat can get his back broken, and not only still lives, but recovers and continues to fight gods with his own supertechnology.
Just stop.
>>82503251
>Superman is the only good person in comics!
you guys are so delusional
>>82503288
maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics
>>82502615
Clark's struggle isn't against his own flaws, though. Clark's struggle is much more about knowing how to save the world (putting it in a bottle), having the power to do it, and choosing not to.
>>82503119
Just because you're a degenerate doesn't mean everyone is.
>>82503348
he says while attacking people on the internet over fictional characters
Superman wouldn't like you doing that :^)
>superheroes have to be vulnerable
Because that's why Achilles and Perseus or the first Mary Sue, Odysseus were, right?
>>82503318
>maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics
It's not assumption when it's true. What's the last comic you read? Can you even remember?
>>82503318
>No one ever said it, If you need to put words in other people's mouths in order to counter their arguments then you are doing it wrong
>maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics
If someone comes and says "Superman isn't relatable because he's not human" then I would assume that he has probably only watched the animated series or the donner movies because his humanity is one of the basics of the chatacter.
>>82503399
Shit wrong scan, but still kind of fits, nevertheless
>>82503255
Agreed that's why I was fearful of BvS film. We needed Super-man to fight a few more gods before taking on Bats.
>>82503298
It's not bullshit you just don't understand the word that well.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't root it in reality, it's the bar in which people stop enjoying the ride.
We know sound doesn't travel in space but most people don't get upset that space battles have sound. Yes they know it shouldn't happen but the ride is fun enough that they can get around it. But let's say in those battles humans get blasted out of their ship with torn open space suits doing just fine in blackness of space bar skin exposed? Well now you will lose them because it's to ridiculous to handle because it seems unnecessary for entertainment.
>>82502527
Joe Russo also said he didn’t care for Cap while growing up, also I am sure he never touched a Superman or Wonder Woman comic, as for Batman all casuals love him.
>>82502527
Well, at least the positive comments about Batman, Flash and Wolverine tell it's not a company wars thing...
But anyway, i'm sure half the people that say stuff like that just never had the fortune to read the good stories. I was one of them for years myself, as a kid i used to see the cartoon on TV occasionally and it just wasn't compelling to me, as opposed to Batman or Spiderman. Then as a teen i started rationalizing my stance, "he's too powerful! A stereotype! Boring!"
Then i got caught into the MoS hype. It made me curious about the character, started reading recommended stories like ASS or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, saw the old Donner movies and eventually i fell in love. The semplicity from a bug became a feature to me
What can i say, i just hope people stumble on the right story that can trigger a bit of real appreciation.I can kinda see what he means about WW and MM tho
>>82503374
All those characters are flawed and vulnerable though. Maybe, like, read for a change.
>>82503374
>Odysseus
>mary sue
>spent 20 years to get home and lost his entire crew
>needed constant help from gods and other people
>>82503399
>only watched the animated series
Dude that series really humanized him. It wasn't till late season 2 of JL and Unlimited that he went full dick mode.
>>82503119
>starkfag normie
>Martian Manhunter was the martian Superman
>Wonder Woman was the female Superman
I mean, that's about where the similarities end. You don't hear people saying, "Man, Firestorm is just Superman but with nuclear power instead of solar"
>>82503489
flawed isn't vulnerable you fucking mong
and if Achilles mourning and raging over death of his lover is sign of being vulnerable Superman is twice as vulnerable
Also name one time Perseus was hurt in any way, I'll wait. Not that it matters, the invulnerability argument is 1. stupid 2.incorrect
>>82502615
They made him a flawed autist who was out of touch, uncertain, and bounced around like the plot device he was doing just as he was told down to killing Zod. I found Man of Murder much less relateable than Superman.
>>82503399
except that's not true at all
at the end of they day the message is that a real human would have broken and that Superman is so much better and humans will never come closer no matter how they try
>>82503491
>single-handedly brought down Troy
>invented ways to bypass most of the perils of the journey
>the only one besides Menelaus to actually prosper after the war
horrible, horrible
>>82502527
Good thing the Russos didnt decide to do the fucking Superman movie then. You can not like a character. Snyder has every right to not be a fan of Superman or his surrounding cast.
So he shouldnt be in charge of the damn movies.
>>82503298
This, Batman has taken down motherfucking Darkseid in several ocassions and no one bats an eye.
Superman and Orion struggle with Darkseid, fuck that Batgod shit.
>>82503575
Calm down, Lex.
>>82503601
>no one bats an eye
Nice lie. Also that never happened. He punched him once and then ran away.
>>82503577
so every hero is a mary sue because they win at the end, let's ignore all the fuck ups, the time they needed help and the fact that their plans barely worked and wasted 20 years for a trip that should have taken a month
>>82503525
Invulnerability argument has some merit it's just no one uses it correctly.
The flaw with invulnerability is you have to sell the idea twice as hard because people are first drawn to that strength/flaw.
And I think with Sups they say "invulnerability" when they really mean "over power"
Wolverine is hard to kill but people have always enjoy him every generation because that's all he has is he's hard to kill.
To the masses: Super-man is hard to kill, can fly, survive/breath in space/underwater, shoot heat beams that can melt near anything, freeze anything with his breath, cause a hurricane with his breath, moves faster than light can lift tons on top of tons in weight. I'll stop there but that should paint my point why Super-man is always a tough sell.
>>82502717
This, every director is just a "fan" of the character they get lucky to work with. Snyder, the Russos, etc they're al lfull of shit.
>>82503491
>mary sue
We talking about Rey?
>>82503676
All that did was make Superman sound a hundred times more exciting to me than Wolverine, and this is coming from a guy who used to like Wolverine more until I actually read comics.
>>82503759
you must be one of those people that only care abou power levels
>>82503575
>Only superman can possibly be this strong willed, human's don't come close
Except for Batman or Spiderman. Wait, still too out there? What about Daredevil? He wears a costume so it doesn't count? Then what about Jim Gordon. He's as strong willed as the rest of them and they are completely made of flesh and blood. Comic books are filled with strong willed characters with different power levels, several of them are humans. Stop trying to justify yourself
As I was saying, the message is that his character was molded by humans, he is human, no matter how hard Luthor wants him not to be. At that point Luthor is so powerful that any power difference that there might be between a human and a krytonian wouldn't matter against him.
Also
>Superman is too strong willed, humans don't come close.
>Superman doesn't know the human struggle, he can't tell us how to live because he cannot know suffering.
Every. time.
>>82503628
Final Crisis, the stuff with Supergirl, him going after Damian's corpse.
It has him one upping Darkseid not necessarily in a fist fight but it's too fucking much, the stuff with Supergirl being even more ridiculous because he actually fights him there and survives being punches by him because of bullshit armor.
>>82503575
>focusing on his sheer power instead of the character itself
what are you a gokufag?
>>82503792
Batman, Spiderman and even Gordon have had their will broken multiple times.
Outside of Red Son I can't remember something similar happening to Superman.
>>82503824
Gokufags are worse because Goku is more OP than Superman and he has the most boring personality with none of the responsibility.
>>82503447
He does raises quite a valid point. It's more believable to see superman struggle with moving the earth or thor ravaging planets than Batman defeating gods and Spiderman fighting firelord.
Also, you don't need to hurt superman physically in order to hurt him. He's a man who saves people. You just have to make him fail. Make people fear him. Question the very idea of him. Make him break his code. Otherwise how do you think that people like the freaking toyman can get a place in his rogues gallery?
>>82502527
There's value to be had there. Most hardcore fans like the characters to be flawless, though. They value them BECAUSE they are gods, not in spite of the fact. Obviously we've learned this because when Snyder gave Superman flaws, people lost their shit.
>>82503792
>Spiderman
This guy sold his marriage to the devil because he couln't stand the fact that his ancient old aunt was going to die. Even fucking God told him to let it go; that his life would go badly if he didn't.
Then boom... Gwen fucked Osborn and had his kids. MJ hates him. His body was taken by Octavius. A shitload of stupid crap happened all because ONE man did not had the willpower to go on with his life.
>>82502527
Its just a matter of effort.
Gods can be flawed. The greek myth is constructed on the flaws of ira deities.
A lot of people just see the extremes of the DC characters.
>>82503878
>Goku is more OP than Superman
Oh boy, here we go again...
>>82503489
flawed, yeah
vulnerable, eeeh, not so much. not immortal, but if you consider anyone who's not immortal as vulnerable you have a very narrow sight
>>82503898
You know that was an editorial mandate
>>82503843
Neil Gaimam story where he and Hal go to hell, Supes just fucking broke there.
>>82503954
Yeah. But it still reflects on the story. Like it or not.
>>82503795
>Final Crisis
He shot the mortal vessel of Darkseid with a gun, literally something anyone could do. You are also forgetting that at the same time it was a team effort with all the heroes doing something to bring Darkseid down.
>the stuff with Supergirl
Being beaten you mean?
>Damian's corpse
Which is the one I said. Let's forget it was a lesser manifestation of Darksed and he was weaker, let's also forget the paraistic suit that was literally killing Batman and let's forget that he just stalled him long enough to harvest some energy.
Like I said he never took him down.
Supertards are by far and away the easiest people to trigger on this board.
>>82502527
>There just wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there for me
>a piece of green rock can take him out
I have given up defending Superman at this point because people just don't want to like him.
I have my conjectures about why people don't want to like Superman, but whatever I say, people will just find another fault with him and use that as an excuse. Too often they just go "He's boring" or "He's flawless"
Fuck off.
>>82503938
He's op in the sense that he's one of the most powerful beings in his universe, while superman doesn't even come close to DC's cosmic deities. He's OP in the sense that pretty much every other Z warrior is useless when he's around, except for vegeta (Even Gohan has been surpassed since after the buu saga ended). He's op in the sense that every saga ends up with him being so much more powerful than before in some sort of endless, repetitive cycle.
>>82504000
I find this only to be true post MoS. Ever since then, the "MUH SUPERMAN" factor has been fucking turned to eleven. They've surpassed Batfags as the most fun people to fuck with.
>>82503968
anybody knows which story was that? I'd very much like to read it
>>82504026
correct
>>82503759
You are not the masses
congrats you are an autistic snowflake but most people don't want their heroes to be a Swiss Army Knife that can solve anything with little effort or rather be scaled against giants and gods which usually further detaches readers.
Spider-man has a slew of powers but is usually more accepted than Super-man. Why do you think that is? Both came from poor backgrounds, both had to deal with being the "that kid" in school both got jobs with the paper, both have the same color coordination with their suit. Both fight crime. But Spidey is more well received. Why? Because his power set is just low enough to put him with everyday street people and villains, it's just low enough that he can be put in jeopardy on a human level. That he has to pick who he saves and who gets away. That all his problems arise from limitations most of which are outside of his control. Super-man doesn't have that excuse, his problems are limited because he set the bar a true "good guys finish last" motto which on paper sounds neat but in practice is either boring or contrite because we as the readers know at anytime he can say "fuck it Im done" and become Emperor of earth, hell that story has been done 4+ times every generation, super-man takes over the earth #2567. That's the flaw, when you are reading about a near god doing near god things it gets to detach for most readers but to read a near god clean up the city it lose it's charm because the threat isn't there.
>>82503968
Legend of the Green Flame
>>82504109
>>82504129
>>82503878
This so hard. Goku's just a worse Superman after the original DB, who's willing to kill if absolutely necessary (which Superman is too really).
Not to mention Goku goes full retard a bunch of times too, like the time he gave Cell and seinzu bean or barely even being around to raise Gohan or Goten.
>>82504149
>>82504078
>as the readers know at anytime he can say "fuck it Im done" and become Emperor of earth
There are so many people in the dcu that could stop him from doing that it's not even funny.
>>82504021
The problem with Superman is that he's just too fucking old. I don't mean that as an insult, he's just been around for too damn long. EVERYONE has an opinion on him, and they've formed it, and that's that. He's beyond being an icon, he's really an omnipresent idea that people decide whether they like or not almost immediately. It doesn't matter what his stories are about or what they do to his character. He's fucking SUPERMAN.
>>82504149
Now I remember where I cropped this out from
>>82504021
>There just wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there for me
>a piece of green rock can take him out
To be fair the whole context is the fact he is neigh unstoppable but a green rock can end the fight every time?
That's not good for narrative. I think it'd work better if that rock was just a dampener. It turn off the powers he got from the sun but he didn't become a crippled weak ball of pain that can't even stand up.
>>82504170
>>82504181
My nigga
It's not even Superman's fault. People just have these preconceptions about him that aren't necessarily true.
>>82504171
Some how they have failed every other year because I keep reading a new Superman goes evil and wins story since 1984
>>82504109
>>82504129
>>82504149
>>82504170
>>82504198
>Superman is so good and nice he is broken by watching people suffering
wow, what an incredible personal flaw, he is too nice!
totally makes me reconsider the character
>>82502722
Barry Flash and Hal GL are not relatable nor or they interesting.
Barry is a poorman's wally and Hal is the same tired boring character he's been since his introduction.
The fact that they wiped wally from existence and had to basically threaten people to get hal as the gl should tell you how pointless and awful they are.
As for martian manhunter and ww being just alien and chick superman?
Yeah they're right.
No one gives a fuck if every other person is superman or some broken god of some elemental force of reality.
>>82504198
This is the stuff with hell, basically Hal using the ring saved them and then some shenanigans with the Phantom Stranger and Alan Scott happen (I forgot but the story deals with the real significance of Alan Scott's oath and a malignant green flame, I have to read it again).
>>82502527
Batman is my favourite character of DC with GL, but that was stupid
>>82504154
>Goku goes full retard a bunch of times too
>implying he's character is not meant to be a full retard overall excluding everytime he's suppose to look badass for the camera
which is probably why casuals love him more
>>82503034
>then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have
Shit, anon. He's got the day-to-day human problems of Clark Kent AND the global-scale problems of Superman. He's probably got it harder than you.
>>82504243
I get shit for it but Super-man has always been patient zero for the "Mary Sue" character type
>>82503465
It means he's never read a Superman,WW or MMH comic. And just uses wiki to make assumptions.
Which is funny because he works in the subdivision of a comanpy that made their own Superman at least 8 different times. On too of the countless Spider-people.
>>82502717
>Everyone just wants to repeat and perpetuate the same tired bullshit, it's so annoying.
Perhaps Superman is simply a boring character because he's invincible and can do no wrong. It's a common opinion for a reason.
>>82504243
You said you wanted something were he broke down stop moving your goalpost.
It's also called having compassion, not to mention seeing and hearing people suffering 24/7 would drive anyone mad.
>>82504194
The effect f Kryptonite really varies depending on the writer. There are enough instances of him being able to fight, think or stand in spite of massive exposure of kryptonite for it to not be an immediate mean to defeat or kill him.
>>82504243
>im too much of an edgy faggot to get invested in a nice person who cares for others
>>82504243
I thought your problem with him was that he was too good and nice?
>>82504292
Why do you hyphen Superman? Are you retarded?
>>82504181
Yep. That's kinda my point.
I mean, just think about all these millennial cocksuckers who got such a hateboner for Superman.
>>82504194
You got a point, but if people are not even willing to have this discussion it's pointless.
>>82504359
phone keeps doing it
don't catch it
>>82504350
>implying being too nice and good aren't lame character flaws
I feel like THIS is the time to push Captain Shazam. if the Normies don't like "Boring invincible Godman", then give them someone who isn't Boring, Invincible, and merely has the powers of a god!
>>82504238
Plot convenience. Most of them are non canon anyways.
>>82504275
>will never have to worry about starving to death
>has a job for fun not because he really needs it
>will never have to worry about getting cancer or dying while going to work
>will never have to worry about ending on the street if he has no job
>doesn't have to worry about anything unlees he wants
inb4 he puts himself in danger to protect people,. that's a choice and literally all the heroes do that
>>82504350
all heroes care about others, that's why they are heroes to begin with
difference is that usual Superman is the one that care the most because he is the super human with super empathy not like those faulty selfish humans
>>82504171
>you are not the masses
most don't know that reading or watching a Superman flick
That's again, the bigger problem, they sell him as a God with his weakness being other Gods or a green rock.
>>82504318
being broken beacause you are Jesus is not the same as being broken for selfish/personal reasons
>>82504400
Oh OK
IMO, it's not really a matter of vulnerability. Superman is boring because...he's boring. He doesn't go on interesting adventures; he's rarely a part of interesting conspiracies; his strength and abilities aren't used in interesting ways; etc.
Pretty much every modern Superman story exists to wank off the idea of Superman. And while that isn't unique to Superman, it makes him (and MM and WW, as Russo mentioned) worse because there's rarely anything more to his stories. Batman, with all of the brooding and powerlevel wanking, still has the detective and street-level side of him that makes his stories genuinely compelling.
Personality, in large part, doesn't matter if the characters don't actually do interesting things. And really, a big problem with modern Superman is that he's *allowed* to be interesting. With the rise of the Justice League and the modern feel of comics, the niche that he fills and the types of stories that are set aside for him are...usually the fucking worst.
And even the ones that have some potentially cool plots are then mired by Super-wanking, as mentioned before.
>>82504524
>He doesn't go on interesting adventures
what.
>>82502527
Now compare this to what Manapul said about the upcoming Trinity book:
>"Clark is a small town boy at his core, so he's had a very grounded upbringing, contrasting the other two which he can be in awe with at times," Manapul explained. "Even though he's an alien, he feels he brings the Everyman aspect to the trinity."
>>82504428
>Superman is the only hero that will ever get shit for this.
>For fun and not because he can use it to denounce crime and misery like in peace on earth or up, up and away.
>Every person I've ever loved will die in front of my immortal eyes. yay.
>Ecept for the time where he actually ended up in a shitty motel after losing his job in the main n52 superman title a few months ago. Something you would know if you actually read comics.
>Don't we all?
Also if all heroes did it why would you list it as a flaw?
>>82504582
Oh boy, can't wait for Superfags to be mad because Batman is going to be the smart one while Superman is the average guy.
>>82504640
One of his powers is Super-Intellect
>>82504640
Small town boy doesn't mean dumb though.
>>82504524
*Citation needed*
>>82503788
I don't give a flying fuck about power levels, that's why I'm able to enjoy it. Don't be a snarky faggot because someone disagrees with you.
I don't like Dragon Ball Z despite it's insane power levels because it's written like dog shit and not exciting with what it does whereas the average Superman comic is
>>82504078
>congrats you are an autistic snowflake but most people don't want their heroes to be a Swiss Army Knife that can solve anything with little effort or rather be scaled against giants and gods which usually further detaches readers.
Don't get asshurt, you put what you were trying to say into the wrong words. The majority of people like Superman and the whole "overpowered" thing never crosses their minds. That's just shit that people who pretend to be into geek culture say when they parrot opinions to sound like thy know what they're talking about.
>>82504626
The superman being immortal thing is something that is only true in two stories that I know of.
>>82504658
His "super abilities" are randomly picked and dropped depending on the story. Super intellect is one of them.
>>82504524
>boring because...he's boring. He
Excellent way to express yourself
>>82504658
Of course. It's Superman after all, not a lowly human.
>>82502527
>the Superman is a bad character meme will never end
It only gets worse everyday. It's hard being a Superman fan
>>82504725
Lex has Super-Intellect.
>>82504626
that happened whe he was losing his powers too
so he wasn't Superman at the moment
>>82504485
We saw in MoS how he totalled the truck of that one guy who threw a milkshake at him but viewers got pissy about it.
New 52 Superman was hated too because in the beginning he was a cocky jerk but he strived to be good instead of being good, wr got to see him at his weakest with people stomping on him and now he's dying because fans want the old Superman back because they didn’t want thise stories.
Then there's the argument that Superman doesn’t allow himself to totally be a normal human being or bad shit happens, if he gets too emotional or selfish he becomes a pycho like Zod or like when Lex Luthor got his powers he started having an existential crisis and crying because he fucking heard everything and saw shit he never saw before.
I think he's a pretty maleable character and you can write him several different ways but people are always going to bitch no matter what you do with him.
Batman is easier and more straightforward to do although he can also get as Mary Sueish as Superman can get.
>>82504640
>Superfags
Superfags aren't a thing in the way that Batfags or Doomfags are and most Superman fans arent fans of super intellect. Stop trying to make mountains outta molehills, fag.
>>82504745
and it's still not enough to stop Superman
the best humanity has to offer and it still fails against the Kryptonian
>>82502527
Because of course the reason we all consume SUPERHERO media is to read about normal people doing normal things.
Batman has always bored me somewhat. He's like this standard action movie hero who happens to wear fetish wear. Supposedly he's this realistic and physically vulnerable character, but the Sue can take down gods who should be able to speedblitz him before he can put any prep time into affect and carries out a job that, in the real world, would end in someone getting their head blown off on the first night, if not for the Stormtrooper level aiming skills demonstrated by every crook Batman faces. Saying "magic" or "they have powers" as an explanation for how superheroes operate so effectively actually allows me to suspend my disbelief, especially if you're going to tell me that this character was able to master over a hundred martial arts disciplines, by his mid twenties no less, or become an expert in dozens of scientific fields without them. Batman's the most ridiculous superhero of all.
>>82504760
Such a shitty excuse because he would have eitheir been there anyway or in the arctic which is much worse in a way since he would be lonely as fuck.
>>82504404
>people shit on him for being too perfect
>people shit on him for having a flaw
>>82504727
I used to hate it, but now I'm kind of digging it. It's almost as if there was a comic to answer to every bit of criticism that casuals spout. The more they criticize, the more I immerse myself into superman comics, and every time I find more reasons to like the character.
>It means you face each foe once, besting them at their most minimal, basic level. I've battled mine time and time again, as they grow more inventive, forcing me to be more resourceful in return. I've got more experience, more skill, more knowledge.
>>82504788
You sound butthurt
>>82504788
Super-Intellect couldn't stop Batman.
>>82504727
I am glad it happens, you hypocrites can't go a day without shitting on Batman just because people like him.
>but perpetrating memes against characters I dislike is fine! everyone should be a Superman fan
>>82504825
Being too nice is only a flaw if people use it to take advantage of you.
Using being "too nice" to portray which loving character he is without any of the negative connotations isn't really a flaw.
>muh relatable
no
I have enough with the Power Ragers costume debacle to get into this
Fuck the internet for the rest of the week
>>82504765
>>82504825
That's really it, no matter what you do with Superman people will bitch about it eitheir "not muh" or fags who don't like him will find another excuse not to.
>>82504760
>He wasn't superman at the moment
The powers do not make the man. That is another really basic trait of the character. I get your point but your way of defending it goes against one of his most defining characteristics.
>>82504837
That's a stupid as fuck justification and anyone who thinks about it for two seconds would think that he's allowing them the chance to become monsters and destroy more shit and ruin and even end more lives just to get his fucking rocks off.
>>82504923
They don't ruin more lives because he actually has the power to stop them and the track record to afford a non killing rule. He's not batman.
>>82502527
Superman is the most repetitive hero because he is THE definitive superhero. Shit, I can name tonnes of Superman analogues from DC and other companies:
>DC
Bizarro
Ultraman
Eradicator
Captain Marvel
>Marvel
Hyperion
Blue Marvel
The Sentry
>Image
Omni-Man
Supreme
>Wildstorm
Apollo
Mr Majestic
>Others
The Plutonian
The Homelander
Samaritan
Am I missing anybody else?
>>82504869
Because Batman is unstoppable and the best at everything but he's a relatable billionaire who can survive and get out from being buried 6 feet under and anything superhuman he does is waived as him being really smart or him knowing some ancient Tibetan technique, he can also wear a Green Lantern ring and Sinestro corps ring and handle having Superman's powers just find and he can stop anyone from the Justice League.
Yep very relatable normal human being.
>>82504923
>just to get his fucking rocks off
He's just explaining to ultraman why he can beat the shit out of him in spite of having similar power levels. He never said he did it for the lulz. He's superman not Goku.
>>82504980
Gladiator
Also the whole reason Thor was made in Marvel was because Stan wanted Marvel to have their own Superman but an even more powerful and godly one so he adapted the Thor character to be that.
>>82504721
He's alive and well in the 853rd century. His immortality is canon.
>>82504719
I'm not condemning the character as a whole. I'm just saying that, for the past 10 years (but certainly more, though I haven't read much beyond that), Superman has been written crappily.
Siegel & Shuster Superman, even with their badly-aged Golden Age writing, is still miles ahead of most modern Superman stories.
Stop jerking him off. Stop asking people to jerk him off. Just write interesting stories that happen to include him and stop wasting precious storytelling space to talk about how "great, kind, glorious, powerful, omnipotent, and blah blah blah blah" he is.
>>82504980
Marvel's Sun God
I have a question. I don't have that great exposure to comics. Supes was never my favorite character , I always preferred bats, but it's not like I thought supes was awful/boring and so on.
My greatest exposure to him was probably JL/JLU from DCAU. He wasn't my favorite, but I wouldn't call him uninteresting, he certainly had cool stories and nice moments.
So, my question is this. How far is dcau-jl/jlu supes "away" from the average/core/common comic supes? Is a comment like "normal supes isn't boring, you don't have to make him all gloomy/flawed like MoS, supes was fine in dcau" valid? Or is dcau supes already too far from main/common comics supes?
>>82504992
I am always amazed at how Superman fans complain about people generalizing and cherrypicking about Superman than they turn around and do the same with Batman.
All the heroes have amazing feats under their belt, that's part of being superheroes.
>>82504992
I was simply pointing out that super-intellect is not the end all you suggested it was.
>>82505165
Read the OP statement. It is common practice to criticize superman while praising batman nowadays. Usually for virtues and flaws that both of them have.
>>82505234
Yeah, but I would expect /co/ to be better.
>>82505263
>>82505263
>I would expect /co/ to be better
Why would you expect ANYTHING from /co/
>>82504250
>muh 90s
>muh Kyle
>muh Wally
Wally whiners confirmed for Disneycasuals.
>>82504965
Bullshit.
His rogues gallery has wiped out fucking worlds and ended hundreds of lives.
>>82505047
That's exactly what he's saying. Goku lets them go because he thinks they can change but he'll actually outright murder someone who is an evil asshole. Supes doesn't do that, and that speech just makes him seem like an evil asshole.
>>82505298
I am like Superman, I always try to see the best in people
>superman can be flawed, he is a real human bean I swear
>but he has to be role model, a figure of hope, he can do no wrong and always finds a solution
>that he is almost invincible doesn't matter, writers can always find a way to make him vulnerable yet he has to always find a way
>read some comics hurr durr
I'm glad sup-fags are getting BTFO, they've been the most obnoxious fanbase second to batfags.
>>82504875
>Implying I hate Batman
Except I don't hate him. I want Batman and Superman to have their bromance back instead of them fighting and people claiming that one has a bigger dick than the other. You people are fucking pathetic
>>82505105
DCAU Supes was just... a stoic a normal guy but with Superman powers and a strange background.
Take a look at the Mr. Mxy ep of StAS.
>>82504250
> Hal is the same tired boring character he's been since his introduction.
Nigger, Hal is probably one of the most relatable of all the GLs.
>His civilian life goes to complete shit at any moment.
>His romance life always goes wrong.
>Self esteem is complete shit.
>Constantly rotating jobs because he can't seem to keep a solid job.
>>82505343
Goku gave a senzu bean to cell so that he could fight him. That is literally letting an enemy live for the lulzz, risking millions of lives.
Anyways here's the scan. It's obvious that he doesn't let his enemies win so that he can fight them again, but he's describing to Ultraman the perks of what for a pragmatist would be a pretty stupid thing to do.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/106716/2374720-trinity013006.jpg
>>82505554
it's called honor
fighting an enemy in a fair fight instead of taking advantage of his weakened sate
it's what differentiate heroes from cowards and asians from westerners
>>82502615
>They made Clark flawed, vulnerable, relatable in MOS and people got violently asshurt.
They didn't make him relatable at all.
I mean fuck I'm a hikkomori and even I have people I talk to.
>>82502995
>What, the underline theme of Batman is hope against all odds
That's a nice projection but there's a reason that when it comes down to it Batman gets the yellow ring all the time.
>>82505536
A handful of check marks on a "spiderman relatability chart" in a few stories that will be quickly ignored does not make a character relatable.
It has to be their status quo for years and his status quo is the exact same shit.
Devil may care ladies man test pilot who's also the greetest green lantern of all time.
It's what the DC oldsters and HEAT fags want, it's what they got and it's what we're stuck with forever more.
>>82505554
He gave him a senzu bean so that gohan would be forced to fight and unlock his power. So that he could live up to his potential and be the kind of real deal hero the earth and universe needed.
Why? Cause goku knows he's not a great hero, just some guy who thinks fair is fair and wants to kick ass and will take any opportunity to do that.
>>82504181
Wasn't that what BvS was about? People having these preconceptions of Superman that were wrong and dumb?
>>82505690
it's not really projection, that is one of the themes of Batman stories
>>82505731
>It has to be their status quo for years and his status quo is the exact same shit.
Guess what, it was from the late 60's to the early 90's. Gerard Jones kicked Hals ass into high-gear and when Geoff Johns brought him back it was as Mr. I can do no wrong.
>>82505769
No, it really isn't.
More often the underlying theme is tat Bruce's mission is doomed to fail, because Gotham is flat out cursed by demons or chemical waste or the corruption is just that deep. Which is why in the future it's always a bad one where they STILL need a Batman. Which is why the only reward for Batman is to BE Batman. He doesn't ever get to stop, because it never ends. Bruce is a deeply, irrevocably damaged person in a deeply, irrevocably damaged city.
>>82502527
Nah, Batman is the only cool superhero in my opinion. He also has great villains which isn't true for most comic book characters. Still, most superheroes are just too samey in general.
>>82505769
No it isn't.
The big theme is that gotham is evil and turns people and batman is a lesser evil that is as fucked up as the monsters he faces.
>>82502527
I can see everybody praising Batman when Batfleck solo flm will come out and everybody shitting on Superman even more
>>82505757
If that was the case (and honestly with Snyder you can argue it wasn't and that he just does stuff because he thinks it's cool) the movie fails at that because it, itself, has preconceptions of Superman that are dumb and wrong, or at the very least too biased and cliche to be considered an objective look.
>>82505798
No, he was just a fucktard that was just around...because.
He was as popular as green arrow then and he was barely anyone of note back in the 90's. Like...just there because.
>>82505823
except it his
even the current run ended on that note
the entire concept is that even in a cursed city like Gotham good can be found, and as long as that there is some hope
>>82505350
you seem pretty boring:^)
>>82505893
>He was as popular as green arrow then and he was barely anyone of note back in the 90's. Like...just there because.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Gerard Jones made GL one of DCs bigger series in the early 90's. They had fucking 5 spin-off books and only went to Kyle because DC wanted something on the same level as Knightfall and Death/Return of Superman despite main GL and Mosaic both selling above 90k a month. Don't talk shit about stuff you don't know about.
Childhood is wishing you were Batman, adulthood is hoping for a Superman
>>82505898
Nah dog. Batman is the team cynic. Saying that's not the case isn't going to change that.
>>82505621
>defending goku being a dick to the universe
>>82502926
>le current year
>reading comics
There's enough diversity and hamfisted writing on TV
>>82502527
The core problem of the DCEU isn't Snyder, it's that literally nobody in Hollywood- including good directors- understand Superman
Prove me wrong
>>82503202
Looking the sales, the people who actually read comics don't like Superman. It's not the Nu52, the sales have been shit since before Death of Superman
![H78psvy[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/X5RO5qB.jpg "H78psvy[1].jpg")
>we will never see a Superman movie like peace on earth
>>82506045
>Prove me wrong
>>82506045
At least Snyder got a few things right in MoS (First flight, first punch, "the world is too big, mom", etc). I can't imagine what someone like George Miller may have done to the character, given his comments.
>>82502527
>Breaking news
>The Russos are plebs
Clark is a human learning to be alien.
J'onn is an alien learning to be human.
>>82505621
Can we at least agree that trying to criticize the no killing rule while backing up the "honor" thing would be quite hypocritical?
>>82505968
[citation needed]
I'll wait.
I'm genuinely curious as to how popular hal green lantern was.
>>82506119
More like they were plebs when they were young.
Then they stopped reading comics altogether.
Heck, they've said they never really liked Captain America either.
>>82503035
Everybody who's new in the industry are batmanfags or dbzfags or both
You know, compared to the tremendous reactions when Man of Steel premiered in 2013, I get the impression that the response to Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice has been fairly muted. By comparison, I mean.
>>82506156
He was so popular that when his movie came out, every person I knew was confused that GL wasn't African American. He was so popular that they got rid of him for Kyle Rayner and it took a HEATfag writer to bring him back. He was so popular that his show failed.
>>82506156
Hal had an entire grassroots movment devoted to bringing him back form the dead called HEAT. This was pre-internet, so it's kind of worth noting.
I think he sucks though.
>>82506219
>Heck, they've said they never really liked Captain America either.
But they got the character pretty well.
>>82506265
That's my point, you moron.
>>82506246
I'd be willing to bet that less people went to see it.
>>82506246
Of course. In 2013 it was a surprise how bad and boring Man of steel ended up being. With BvS it's less of a surprise because you could kind of see it coming from past experience.
>>82502615
>They made Clark flawed, vulnerable, relatable in MOS and people got violently asshurt.
A billion times this. DC/WB gave us a human relatable Clark, Kent family and world, and people got mad as fuck.
People are just going to bitch no matter what. For years people complained that Superman movies never had a real challenge for him. MoS and BvS introduced a world of real challenges. They introduced enemies that weren't Lex Luthor (or cut-rate Luthor) devising idiotic real estate schemes and people still complained.
For years people wanted superhero movies to be "taken seriously." It happened, and people got mad.
MoS and BvS are the best superhero movies ever made. Snyder and DC/WB took a big risk to try something different and epic instead of making another popcorn movie.
I can't wait for Justice League.
>>82503278
Honestly now i am worried of how spidey will develop, fuck everything
>>82506304
>You're only relatable if you're angsty and depressed
Anon get therapy. You need help.
>>82506265
Yeah, because it's their job.
Finding a director who genuinely loves the source material for exactly what it is and will fight to incorporate it on their own merits, like say Timm and the DCAU, is just not going to happenthough I think Batfleck might have a shot at being the first
>>82506304
>It happened, and people got mad.
Not when Nolan did it three times from 2005 to 2012.
>>82506246
BvS is way better than MoS, even if it's still shit.
>>82506394
No
MoS works as a competent standalone movie, BvS is a scattershot collection of thoughts
>>82503954
Oh yeah a couple of stupid decissions matter more than decades of story, there's a reason most fans don't consider those stories aside from mocking them or getting angry because of them, go eat a dick
>>82502527
>Is the odd assortment of alien/god-like heroes in DC Comics the reason why it's so hard to translate them from comics to films? Is that why Batman so easy to make films of?
It is the reason Batman movies can actually be good... Marvel is all about gods etc and those movies look fake af and rely on dumb jokes to get by. trying to play the alien god angle seriously is very difficult because we know that if there really were aliens or gods they would not look like handsome humans
>>82502615
>They made Clark flawed, vulnerable, relatable in MOS
How? He gets a girlfriend despite talking to her like once, gets a job just as easily, killed all his enemies and saved the world in an enormous bloodbath. I can't relate to that. Unless you mean the "human" parts but even those were totally alien-seeming especially how pa kent acts and talks to his young son
>>82506394
>>82506430
MoS wasn't very good but BvS retroactively made it even worse than it was.
>>82506371
>Not when Nolan did it three times from 2005 to 2012.
Superman wasn't in any of Nolan's movies.
Also, Nolan's Batman movies was entirely more by the numbers than Snyders.
Snyder and his writers effectively reversed the message of the Dark Knight Returns and ended on a redeemed and hopeful Batman instead of a loner cult leader. What he did was way bolder and braver than Nolan's Batman.
>>82506489
>. Marvel is all about gods
Confirmed or not understanding Marvel at all.
>>82506356
One of the biggest points of those movies is overcoming that, though.
>>82506507
>Snyder and his writers effectively reversed the message of the Dark Knight Returns
You're right. Snyder does routinely miss the point of the comics he draws from. So brave. Such risky.
>>82506304
people who want superhero movies to be taken seriously don't want the movies to change so the larger audience will take them seriously, they want the larger audience to change so they take the movies as they already are/were seriously
>>82506246
people saw it coming not only because of Snyder but for various other reasons.
>>82506546
>implying that wasn't intentional
fuck it even says it in the title: dawn of justice.
>>82506551
I find amusing how you need to ape a 14 year old's interpretation of what's badass in order to be taken seriously. Snyder tries so hard that it's legitimately funnier than anything anyone else has done.
That's why DC movies have all the enduring memes.
>>82505319
>muh silver age
>muh childhood
>>82506507
>Also, Nolan's Batman movies was entirely more by the numbers than Snyders
how?
>>82506430
>works
>competent
These are not two words that describe MoS unless they're preceded by a negative participle.
>>82506583
I cannot argue with that. "PLEASE SEE OUR SEQUEL" was indeed in the title.
>>82506546
Not him but that was one of the few things I liked about BvS, and it was obviously deliberate. Whereas Miller almost fetishized a brutal Batman Snyder made him a near-villain. Watching him beat Superman wasn't a triumph like it was in TDKR. It didn't feel like a hero had won, it felt like a hero had fallen.There were some good ideas in BvS. If it was competently edited (and no, the Ultimate Cut can't fix this) and Lex Luthor was actually Lex Luthor I might've even liked it.
>>82506517
??
Thor, Cap, and even Hulk have powers that obviously transcend human capacity. and the enemies they face are at a godly or religious level
Although I only mean comparative to Batman and in the recent movie they made him something of a god himself...
>>82506614
What did Nolan do that new with the character? Any of them?
>>82506614
Because people like them.
It's only "art" if it's angsty and a only a select few "patricians" like it.
>>82506646
Yes they do. Even if you disagree that it was a competent Superman movie, it still works as a competent sci fi movie. The only part of it that's really mechanically incorrect is the lack of denouement after Zod's death.
>>82506665
>Thor, Cap, and even Hulk have powers that obviously transcend human capacity.
Out of curiosity how much do you think Batman can bench press? The answer may surprise you if you think he's anything close to "human".
>>82506651
comic books are serial storytelling. are you surprised that comic book movies are serial storytelling? if that bothers you, comics probably aren't for you.
>>82506665
Yes I'm sure the Winter Soldier is Lucifer himself
>>82506241
You leave dbz the fuck out of this.
Superman SUCKS!
DC SUCKS!
Even Yamcha could singlehandedly defeat their whole lineup, AND is a better character with more depth and development.
>>82506680
That's not true. I like Nolan's Batman movies. I don't think they were as bold or challenging as Snyder's, though.
