Why does the Avengers roster always suck?
Have they ever had a 100% good line-up
>>82396459
>Have they ever had a 100% good line-up
Cap's Kooky Quartet
That's a pretty solid roaster though. I always prefer when The Avengers or Justice League has more C and D listers than big names. Characters who couldn't carry their own book
>>82396459
They're Marvel's JSA, not their JLA.
Bendis didn't understand.
>>82396549
Then who are the JLA?
>>82396606
Justice League of America
>>82396632
I meant who are Marvel's JLA.
>>82396606
X-Men
>>82396606
Fantastic Four was their flagship team book in the beginning, later it was X-men
>>82396606
>>82396660
If I had to guess, the X-Men.
Teen Titans would be the New Warriors.
>>82396662
Pfft. DC wishes they had their own X-Men. JLA certainly isn't it.
The Avengers were usually a showcase for writer's pet characters, not necessarily for characters that actually mattered or were even remotely popular.
The movie team is the most refined roster. Hulk wasn't even a member but for like two issues at the very start in the comics.
But yeah, looking through the team over the years, it's almost always full of characters I couldn't ever bring myself to give a shit about.
Dr. Druid? Starfox? Jack of Hearts? Triathalon?
Yawn.
>>82396701
New Teen Titans and Legion of Superheores in the 80's were close
But both of those went to shit and never recovered.so I guess they are like the X-Men
>>82396721
>not liking C-listers getting a little time to shine
Fantastic Four was the true Marvel JLA. The FF was a big deal for a long time. The Avengers were second tier. By the time the FF's popularity started to wane the X-Men had gotten good and stayed on top for decades.
>>82396721
>Dr. Druid? Starfox? Jack of Hearts? Triathalon?
See that's the kind of shit that makes me love The Avengers. I'm way more excited for the "Literally who"s than I am for Iron Man or Thor. Those guys have their won books if I want to find them
Avengers are where you go to earn your stripes, get some training and experience, then move on to your own thing.
It's like the national guard but with actual respect.
>>82396606
They don't really have one
Maybe the defenders? JLA is a superstar book, Avengers (after the original incarnation) at least to a certain extent was for characters who couldn't carey their own book
>>82396822
I've gotten the general sense that Marvel's, unlike DC's. flagship title has changed several times over the years
Something like Fantastic Four-->Spider-man-->X-men--->Avengers
>>82396662
>>82396680
>>82396685
Then does X-Men have a trinity?
>>82396804
A lot C-Listers are great under used characters. But most of them are C-list for a reason and it takes a special case for them to be worth a spot. Look at Mantis or Moondragon. Fucking worthless, useless characters for the vast majority of there existence -- didn't get good until Guardians of the Galaxy.
>>82396902
I guess it would be the OG Defenders.
>>82396931
Cyclops, Jean, and Wolverine.
>>82396931
Cyclops/Wolverine/Storm would be the ideal trinity.
Fuck imagine if they had a team-up book focused only on their interactions.
>>82396931
Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm.
Those three, especially in the early 90s, were the driving forces of that book.
Back when the original five were X-Factor, Wolverine, Storm and Colossus were the faces of the X-Men.
>>82396902
The Defenders are closer to Doom Patrol, even moreso than X-Men. Both teams feature weirdoes and outcasts in their line-up, and their villains sometimes are weird shit like the Bozos and the Headmen.
>>82396459
Where the fuck is Beast coming from?
The Defenders were the only actual over powered team akin to the JLA that Marvel had and even then the Defenders had dorks like Gargoyle, Nighthawk, and Black Knight who were just kind of...there for some reason.
>>82396685
X-Men and Teen Titans were actually very analogous in the 70/80s
>>82397133
Obviously a tube that leads directly from his quarters to the main atrium of Avengers HQ.
Duh.
>>82397257
I meant in the sense that NW and TT were books about teen heroes.
>>82397285
Yeah it's even got a little handle for him.
>>82396721
>Dr. Druid? Starfox? Jack of Hearts? Triathalon?
>Yawn.
Fuck off Bendis.
So what was the best Avengers team?
I don't think I've read it since the New Avengers/ Mighty Avengers era pre Dark Avengers and those teams seemed damn good.
>>82396459
The whole point of The Avengers whenbit was created was to give smaller known heroes an arc to shine. Authors now forget that. But the point of them is to grab a hero, make a character growth arc for them within punchiness and then ship em out when it was done. Rinse repeat. I miss this time of avengers having a rotating cast. It gave writers the ability to tell small character stories within a greater one. Busiek did it best.
Avengers wasn't any good till they became the Justice League and Bendis ruined even that
>>82397466
Kiss my ass Busiek!
>>82397519
>So what was the best Avengers team?
I'd say Roger Stern or Busiek
>>82397519
Busiek's Avengers is a good standby, but personally this is my favorite line up
>>82396931
Magneto/Storm/Sentinel
>>82397519
Stern's Avengers and Busiek's Avengers are the all time best runs, hands down.
The massive Heroes Return relaunch was the only time the Avengers, Cap, Thor, and Iron Man books were all good at the same time.
>>82397606
MAHVEL BAYBEE
>>82397616
Who was on Captain America for Heroes Return?
Avengers was Busiek/Perez
Thor was Jurgens/JRJR
Iron man was Busiek/Chen
>>82396907
Are the Avengers really a flagship title now or is it just their most popular at a time when Marvel can't sell comics?
>>82397664
Waid and....Garney?
>>82396984
Why can't we ever have nice things?
Will the X-men ever recover?
>>82396459
None of them are ever strong enough to fight cosmic threats.
It's why most of their events end in a deus ex machina.
Just look at Standoff and how useless they were there.
>>82397720
Remember when Uncanny Avengers was a flagship title, then it got delayed again and again because they made the mistake of hiring Cassaday
>>82397720
I think sales have to relate to what's considered flagship, as a company is going to cater to whats selling. Avengers absolutely counts as Marvel's flagship franchise as it produces the most spin-offs, other comics have fallen under its umbrella (non-Avengers characters joining the Avengers) and all of the events center around the Avengers and affect every other title.
>>82397885
god they need to put Uncanny Avengers out of its misery. They keep showing up as the "standard" avengers team, but I think most people have forgotten about it.
>>82397810
There are a few key problems even worse than low power levels (which while not THE reason Avengers suck is A problem)
>who is screwing who drama being central
>barely any good villains
>characters are not heroic
>inconsistent mission statement with many writers disagreeing what they should be: the flagship heroes best of the best or a showcase for literal whos
>low power level
I'd say Busiek's team but fuck Firestar and Marvel Boy. I've always hated every New Warrior except Nova from day one.
>>82398027
>characters are not heroic
Literally the dumbest complaint when talking about 90% the Avengers have been running for.
>>82396680
>Tfw the Fantastic Four and the X-Men used to be Marvel flagship
>>82398027
>inconsistent mission statement with many writers disagreeing what they should be: the flagship heroes best of the best or a showcase for literal whos
Now that Avengers can handle 3+ titles, you'd think it be easy to do both. Yet I can't tell which of the three Avengers title I'm supposed to consider the "main" Avengers
Personally I'd do something like this:
Avengers (main cast, JLA-esque)
Avengers Assemble (Hickman sized rotating cast, features the above team but focused on the C-listers)
>>82398143
They're more The Real World than Earth's Mightiest Heroes
>>82398027
Fuck off all your complaints are actually good things for a team book
I like it better when a writer makes a team that has a diverse power set. Loading it up with heavy hitters is often just redundant.
Cap's Quartet plus Iron Man is an ideal team in my mind.
I used to read it a lot in the 90s and I still have no idea what use Sersi, Crystal and Black Knight were.
>>82396701
>DC wishes they had their own X-Men.
What is Doom Patrol?
>>82398309
No?
>>82398523
I always loved the West Coast Avengers.
Relatively weak team with exception of Wonder Man and Vision but they were my favorites. Hawkeye should be the leader of every team.
>>82398523
Jesus, Sersi was the worst. Her powers are literally anything and everything.
Super strong, invincible, flies, molecular manipulation, energy projection, teleportation, and can create optical illusions. Yet still manages to be utterly boring and useless.
>>82398605
Doom Patrol was never as popular as the X-Men in the book's prime
>>82397082
Wasn't that the team with Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Hulk and Namor?
>>82398523
That post Galactic Storm line up was weird. I did like how they all wore badass leather bomber jackets, though.
>>82398613
>muh power levels
>muh character interactions
>muh character development
You complain about all three, so kindly fuck off
>>82398873
They're great
>>82398873
Yeah.All of Marvel's super heavy, overpowered guys who were able to take on super duper threats
Later they added lame characters like Valkyrie and Nighthawk who did nothing but flopped around and looked stupid. Then, hey, why not add Beast too? The whole book went to shit after the Defenders vs Avengers arc which happened very early on.
>>82398788
Even after Morrison run?
>>82398920
PHG thinks character development is wrong. He basically wants cape comics to go back to the way things were under the CCA
>>82399003
Dude. It was critically acclaimed but it never ever got near X-Men levels of popularity.
>>82399003
It's kind of weird that Morrison had a run on both Doom Patrol and X-Men. Was Morrison's X-Men good?
>>82396459
The issue 3 line was pretty god tier.
>Cap
>Iron Man
>Thor
>Wasp
>Giant Man
>On-and-off Hulk
Should've been the movie line-up.
>>82397654
>SCOOPS HAGEN DAZ
>WHERE YO CURLY MUSTACHE AT
>FUCK THE KNICKS
Gets me everytime
>>82399007
Putting words in my mouth, character development is more bad than good though
>>82398920
Do you really believe a bunch of underepowered assholes who primarily care about who is diddlying who qualify as the premier heroes of a setting? Seriously I like romance drama and unfriendly douchebags in moderation, but Avengers is way too abundant with that throughout its first 40ish years of history. I also said their bad guys FUCKING SUCK, the best ones they got are Kang and a few Masters of Evil. Not lineups
>>82399108
Over rated as fuck. He did give some new thoughts to the franchise but his stories were very mediocre. What Whedon done after was mich better but it did rely on Morrisons foundation
>>82398945
Damn whoever Strange is talking to just got BTFO'd
I'm all for giving B, C and D-list characters a bit of play but that usually gives us shiters like Gilgamesh and Rage rather than Moon Knight and She Hulk.
>>82399108
>Was Morrison's X-Men good?
It has some good parts, most notably trying it's damn best to get the franchise out of the rut it was in. No more crossovers was a big deal
It's full of shitty art though. Frank Quietly does a handful of issues, but largely it's full of fill in artists who managed to pencil and ink entire issues in a week
>>82399253
Valkyrie.
>>82399198
>their bad guys FUCKING SUCK
Aren't you a Hulk fan though? Doesn't seem to be a problem for you there
>>82399198
Yes. I hate OP teams that just fight the next big baddie. Their biggest struggles are with themselves as a team, with the government and with health crisis in the team. I dont care about their villains cause they don't matter. 1 ideological differences are far more interesting than punching 2 not civil war but pokitics were a huge factor for a long time. Goverment tried to get their fingers in them and Wasp needed to take control. Best leader they had 3 Pym trying to cure hazmat or keep Jack of hearts from dying is the best stuff. It is heart wrenching
>>82396606
the illuminati
you know its true.
>>82399358
If you want to talk about my opinions on Hulk, then you probably know what my favorite period of stories are from and their contents
The stories that I like from the Hulk have him roaming around the world getting into weird adventures. The character is interesting and how that big green angry child interacts with people is the fun as is Banner dealing with the fallout. His rogues gallery is as pathetic as the Avengers, the only supervillains he has that are any good are Leader and maybe Abomination on a good day. Recurring antagonists are not the point
Avengers is not the same type of book as the Hulk is. They are not globe trotters, a large span of time is spent doing down time in their mansion faffing around about their problems. There is nothing wrong with characters having drama. What is wrong is the inordinate amount of time Avengers traditionally spend on drama and illness and wavering loyalties, rather than thwarting any big threats. The big threats they pull out when they do being very lame does not help any mind you
>>82399421
Do you not like the JLA or JSA or Defenders or any team book where the focus is fighting evil and team drama is only ancillary?
>>82399751
>Do you not like the JLA or JSA
Not at all. The Giffen/DeMatteis stuff is the only era of Justice League I can stand. As for the JSA I don't like Johns or any of the artists on board
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>>82399974
I don't think we can find any ground, you seem to have a pretty made opinion on what all team books should be
My piece is that traditionally Avengers is crap because like basically every other team book at Marvel it was packed with the drama and romance and misunderstandings and shit villains....but it wasn't any good at. In universe and in the context of the stories they were largely seen as the elite superhero team and something worthy of prestige, but there are no stories that make that a true fact. It is a lie. To me, they are neither a good high action high stakes high heroism book or a good schlocky tense soap opera drama book. Those are the two ways you can go with a gaggle of heroes on one title and if you don't go either way any good, it's a waste of time
>>82400332
You're right. In-universe the Avengers were supposedly hot shit and THE team but they've hardly had a good run, the characters are mostly also-rans with boring drama like the Quicksilver/Crystal shit or Vision/Wanda/Wonder Man crap. They are currently more relevant then ever before and that's only due to the movies.
>>82399751
>Do you not like the JLA or JSA or Defenders or any team book where the focus is fighting evil and team drama is only ancillary
Honestly that is boring to me. I generally dislike teambooks including most avengers runs. What i like is character drama and development. Punching is fun but only when necessary. It should move the personal stories forward. My only complaint about Busieks run is the villains could be cut from the story andbit would be the same story. A great story but shorter
>>82400753
>only due to the movies
That's not really true. Don't get me wrong the movies play a major part in the Avengers boom we've seen but the Avengers were becoming a big deal way before the movies came out.
Really it's when Bendis took on New Avengers. He included Spider-man and Wolverine which meant two of the biggest Marvel tentpoles now fell under the Avengers franchise. Then there was House of M, which was an Avengers/X-men joint event but saw the rise of the Avengers franchise and the X-men enter a slump. Civil War was really when the Avengers became THE Marvel flagship and its continued since.
>>82397578
>>I'd say Roger Stern or Busiek
Agreed, though I'd give the edge to Stern. Jim Shooter and Steve Englehart's run deserves some love too.
>>82396459
The first line up change, when Don Heck became main artist.
>>82396459
cap is flashing his giant phallus.
>>82396524
>That's a pretty solid roaster
>>82396606
Now it would be the Ultimates if we're talking powerlevels.
+ Shang Chi
+ War Machine
+ Prince of Orphans
This was a great fucking line up.
>>82398523
Crystal's not exactly weak She's basically Marvel's Avatar
>>82397889
I would argue that Avengers are artificial flagship.
The only time they could compete with X-Men was New Avengers era, when the team had Wolverine and Spider-Man.
Otherwise, Avengers sale wise are disappointment. I would say that Spider-Man and Deadpool are flagships currently
>>82398523
Crystal a cute. Take everything back.
>>82403963
Dick was on a team with Moon Knight?
Cool combo
>>82396459
>>82398920
>relationshits
>'character development'
pick one
how powerful is Wonder Man?
Name one flaw with the Busiek Avengers.
Hint, you can't
>>82406885
Firestar is my waifu
>>82396459
Aren't they a b team outside of the movies.
>>82396701
You mean a set of characters that really should exist in a seperate universe to the rest.
So if the avengers were once used to build support for new characters and hold those who had no support what does marvel use for that now
>>82396822
Spider-Man was always on top
X-Men big too
casuals knew about Hulk, Ant-Man, Thor
>>82407741
replacing old characters with minorities and children
its easier than making new characters
>>82407676
Yeah. They only exist to job and Marvel's trying to make the concept X-Men-tier in the comics, but can't quite crack it
>>82397938
They are no longer the case with ANAD.
>>82396931
Cyclops, Professor X, and Beast.
>>82396931
Scott, Kitty and Logan
>>82396459
Kooky Quartet.
>>82396946
>Mantis
>worthless
Shittiest of tastes.
>>82396459
All line-ups were great compared to the current one.
I'd read the shit out of this tho
>>82396931
>Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine
> Cyclops/Storm/Wolverine
> Or for most of the 00s, Cyclops/Emma/Wolverine
Take your pic.
