What are some of the biggest dropped plot points in Homestuck?
>>82073905
what about this is dropped?
the fact that Fedora Freak never showed up to save the day?
>>82073905
Karkat's character arc
>>82074135
We never see any more exiles and after A5A1 the comic treats it like there was only ever one session on earth.
>>82074174
well I was always under the impression that all of the other sessions were inherently fucked from the get-go by "fate" or whatever because they didn't have meteor babies.
>>82074255
Cal's didn't either technically.
So are all of you guys in your 60's? Because I started reading from the beginning and all that happened after 45 minutes of reading is that some kid installed a game on his computer and got a cake for his birthday.
I'm now convinced that it would take at least three decades of continuous reading to read all of Homestuck. What's it like for you guys in the retirement home?
>>82074311
when I caught up the midnight crew intermission had just started.
it wasn't hard to read when it was just a few pages or so a day.
Characters who deserve to enter the new universe:
Caliborn
Karkat
Jack Noir
Diamonds Droog
Hearts Boxcars
Clubs Deuce
Condesce
Aranea
Meenah
Vriska
Honorable mention: Eridan, Gamzee
Anyone I forgot to mention?
>>82074174
>A5A1 the comic treats it like there was only ever one session on earth.
wrog
COME IN
http://overseer2.com/
name: Converging_/co/_Connection
password: Hussie_Zahack
Post best ship.
>>82074255
They were. The kids' session was the only drop of universe cum Earth squeezed out
>>82073905
There actually should've been hundreds of exiles in the game if we are to take this as canon.
Hell, even if we NEVER saw any other sessions beyond the trolls, our earth should've been littered with the damn critters, because probability dictates that SOME other kids/adults survived to enter the medium.
>>82074659
I don't have any davejade saved on this computer
I've a fic where he fucks her till her brain temporarily stops working though
>>82074615
How do we join?
>>82073905
Rose never played the rain
>>82074724
>>82074615
Here's our discord we'll explain you:https://discordapp.com/channels/172467488934592512/172467488934592512
>>82074772
That doesnt work
>>82074753
I will never forgive her.
>>82074696
For all we know there could have been hundreds of exiles and stations on future Earth. All wiped out by the miles.
>>82074817
Yeah my link was shit, here's the one https://discord.gg/0xjBKGheyqByTkXV
>>82074659
Sure thing
>>82074659
you posted it already
>>82074753
>her shadow has cat ears and tail
No fucking way did he plan ^2 prototyping that early
>
Did we ever find out where Sburb came from, and why?
>>82075012
That's a cat, dude
>>82075012
its her cat you fucktard
>>82075022
>Do I know you people?
>cutest roxy ever
>but that subject matter
>>82075025
It just is. It has no traceable ontology, just like the characters, who are literal time paradoxes. The universes SBURB creates come equipped with tools to create another SBURB session, and so on.
>>82074587
Correct
>that Sparrow update
I nearly spat out my drink holy shit I wasn't expecting that. Should have went with Jane instead of r63 John but different strokes I guess.
>>82075022
>Dave baldshaved with a bunch of noodles on his head
>Rose is kind of the same
>Jade has a feeble mustache
>John is the most adequate, but certainly gay
>>82075117
What's wrong with the subject matter? Nothing wrong with two young ladies encouraging each other the day they both marry their husbands.
>>82075022
>when your bae asks you where the 2.2 million dollars your fans gave you went
>>82075012
That's just Mutie. However...
>>82075297
>"I gave it all to The Odd Gentlemen!"
>>82074135
Because he died.
>>82075227
hmu senpai
>>82075249
>Jane
>getting dick EVER
she's fucked for life
>>82075307
well fuck my ass and call me daisy I guess goddamned everything needs to be a callback don't it
>>82075352
Why is Jane the only kid not to be paired off?
>>82075384
because Jane sucks in general
>>82075384
she's a boring bitch
>>82075377
that's hussie's writing style haven't you realized
there's no way to tell if he really planned it out that far, or if he just deliberately writes everything in a way that makes it seem foreshadowing, and then periodically goes back and picks things to make real
im in the camp of "he plans it all the way out because he's a fucking madman" myself
>>82075435
its called retroactive foreshadowing and he confirms he does it all the time
>>82073905
Here's a better question,
why is your phone on low battery mode if it's plugged in at 100%?
>>82075384
i'm pretty sure in the ending "ship montage" she got paired off with dad
>>82075396
Definitely should have been Jane but god DAMN
>>82075464
Can't you just manually turn that on under settings
>>82075455
it's my fucking favorite thing about homestuck, no lie
CHOOSE YOUR CHARACTER
>>82075468
>pedo incest
Truly progressive. Bravo. So brave, Hussie.
>>82074710
gonna need that link fambourghini
>>82074659
You asked for it.
>>82075538
Dave at least seems the proper level of dissatisfied with his existence in a world that births such creatures.
>>82075022
Post actually good racebends please.
>>82075615
They would look fine if not for the fact they all look 28.
>>82073905
But this wasn't dropped at all.
>>82075538
>Jane
>>82074659
but anon, that isn't Mituna/Latula
>>82075658
I guess?
>>82075687
>messy hair rose
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh no
>>82075022
Why do everyone give Dave that haircut?
Testing
I edited it for transparency and am no good with editing tools
>>82075498
...but its plugged in. It should turn off automatically ata round 80%
>>82075579
http://archiveofourown.org/works/210281
>>82075615
I like how John and Rose are together on Derse but Dave must've missed the memo or some shit so now he's glowering all by himself on... I'm gonna say LOTAK?
>>82075701
So picky.
>>82075769
>>82075687
>>82075615
literally the most beautiful rose
>>82075745
danekah kamerad
>>82075747
Look at the reflection in his lenses.
>>82075745
Still my favorite series of fanfics
>>82075747
it's the final fight scene dude
>>82075804
>>82075824
holy moley you're right
this is some fresh art
http://archiveofourown.org/series/49707
How the fuck did Baby Dirk feed himself?
>NOBODY COULD HAVE BEEN WHITE IN SUBURBAN AMERICAstuck
So shitty. The percentage of non-white kids who even get to live in houses as spoiled fucking rich as Homestuck kids is probably under 1%. Like even Bro's pad was actually a sweet fucking condo with exclusive access to the roof - which anyone else would have made into a garden paradise.
>>82075855
>its a Bro fic
>>82075855
Still my least favorite series of fics
>>82075883
>The percentage of non-white kids who even get to live in houses as spoiled fucking rich as Homestuck kids is probably under 1%.
where did you pull this statistic from, directly out of your ass?
>>82075917
>>82075897
The Jade one is pretty cute.
>>82075954
GUYS LOOK
CUTE CANCER
>>82075954
>Jade/Bro
God no
>>82075855
>Bro Bangs the Beta Kids
>>82075918
You know it bro
>>82075976
What would the onomatopoeia be for killing wriggler Vriska? Would it be a SNAP, a CRUNCH, SQUISH maybe?
>>82075976
End it.
>>82075954
Jade found Bro to be a real creep, that makes it worse.
>>82075976
Only the cutest of cancer is allowed.
>its a demon hunter fic
>>82076078
>It's a "the Trolls/whatever the fuck the Trolls are shoved into being are persecuted BT the evil racists" fic
>its a Jade fic
>tags: Becquerel
>>82076078
>it's a davekat fic
>for the next fifty pages it's a fucking davekat fic
>It's tagged F/F and Rosemary
>Rose and Kanaya appear like once in the background and have nothing to do with the John/Dave/Karkat rest of the story
>its a "cute couple fuck but they brought in one other character to bang for no fucking reason" fic
>>82076263
>It's tagged something else and it's nothing but "Hey here's my horrible interpretation of Davekat"
>It's a Johnkat fic where they just swapped out Dave mid-writing-process
>It's a "Karkat's a human and they're still my gay babies" for the fiftieth time with no variation
>It's a "Jade doesn't exist" fic
I've been stewing on it for about a week now, but I still can't comprehend how awful that ending was.
It's one thing to make an open ending, like LOST. It's another to do when you built up character arcs and then just slap the reader with the ending without concluding those arcs.
What a complete asspull.
>Problem Sleuth's final boss fight takes up half of the comic
>Homestuck's final boss is killed off-screen and never actually interacts with any of the main characters.
Imagine if Act 7 detailed the fight with LE and was the same length as the first six acts together.
what did he mean by this?
>>82076463
He's prepping Jade to be horny for normal Dave
So by the time they're ready to enter the new universe Jade's panties are soaked just from standing near Dave
>reading fic
>It Ain't Me starts playing
>>82076422
>LOST
>open ending
Act 7 has brought in so many LOST apologists it makes me sick. THAT was a garbage ending.
>>82076422
Dude....do you remember all the huge logs right before the ending? One even literally adresses, that the characters don't have arcs because they are just people, and the Dave/Dirk one underlines that point
>>82076495
>Jade wearing panties
Don't make me post those bottomless Jades
they don't have character arcs
they're just people
they beat the game
they're done
it's over
move on
"but what does blood mean?
who cares? it wasn't necessary to win so why bother
Bara Karkat.
>>82076544
well now you have to
>>82076554
>>82076544
Someone make this guy post bottomless Jades
So, what about the fact we never found out who made SBURB?
>>82076601
literally not bait
What's the worst theory/speculation of all time?
>Karkat is going to kill everyone in Universe C, because he is lol cancer
>Vriska becomes Lady English by killing LE and goes full Griffith
>Calliope becomes Lady English by fusing with Gamzee's other half and Davepeta
>Roxy gets Condy's curse
>Dave permadies during EOA6
>Rose plays the rain for real
>Kanaya chainsaws Derse in half
>>82076523
The Dave/Dirk one underlines that Dave did in fact have an arc. He's one the the few who did. That's the real irony here.
>>82076554
>people are still misinterpreting a meta joke made by fucking DAVE as actual author commentary
he had a fucking arc you moron, that's why it WAS A JOKE
>>82076641
The universe did. It's just a way for it to reproduce.
>>82076544
Fine
The rapidly forming pool of spaceinfused girlcum that accumulates as she stands next to Dave
>>82076653
no shit but it was also a joke that he used to excuse himself from not giving all of the other main characters arcs
>>82076648
>>82076653
growing up =/= a character arc
it's just growing up
it's a story about kids growing up
>>82076697
When did he ever use it to fucking excuse himself?
It is literally taking a joke out of context and pretending it's author commentary.
>>82076698
damn, bro
>>82076721
do you know what lampshading is
>>82076690
So are we still treating the idea of Jade going into heat as a canon thing?
>>82076739
>character with a character arc talking to another character with a character arc is lampshading that Hussie is excusing that characters don't have arcs
did you think this one through buddy?
>>82076788
>By underscoring points of possible contention, usually humorously, the suspension of disbelief is retained.
point of possible contention: none of the characters have fucking arcs
joke to underscore it: dave says people don't have character arcs
hussie is a hack
>>82076690
>girlcum
being wet is not girlcum
>>82076821
>point of possible contention: none of the characters have fucking arcs
jane crocker is not all of the characters
rose has a character arc that isnt playing the rain
wanna know how i know that no one has character arcs
nothing resembling a character arc got resolved
>>82076782
Of course.
One a month there's a point where she just NEEDS to be held down and filled to the brim for twenty four hours straight.
>>82076836
You underestimate how wet Jade gets.
>>82076698
This anon gets it
Why does he exist?
>>82076836
For our purposes it is.
>>82076859
the characters just sort of changed arbitrarily as they grew up and then their development was cut off abruptly at a random time
>>82076859
>Roxy "I sure wish I wasn't an alcoholic and could get a superhot nerd to love me!" Lalonde
>no arc
>>82076877
Nah it's just that it's lubrication, not cum.
>>82076934
Karkat was a long continuous generator of queerbaiting.
>>82076955
>>82076938
please direct your attention to >>82076698
>>82076859
John............?
Jade finally realized she doesn't have to be the universe's bitch
Rose finally was able to trust people outside her friend group and be remotely happy
Dave got over his distorted perception of Bro by meeting a version of him that was an actual person
lol Jane
Jake finally got to be left alone and flourish on his own, and he realized he was fine with that
Dirk let someone else take the reins for a moment
Roxy succeeded in keeping her friends together and also found love/conquered her alcoholism
>>82076983
>if jade sat down you could just slide her across the floor like it was a slip n slide
>>82076955
when did Roxy get over her drinking problem anyway
was that yet another important character moment that happened offscreen
>>82076698
>growing up =/= a character arc
Today on "shit HSG says", this mad little kid says dumb stuff
Are they going to have to hire twins to play John and Jake in the sitcom?
>>82077028
Yes. Hussie loves his time skips.
>>82077003
Kanaya had her arc fulfilled in Act 5 Part 2 by becoming Rose's girlfriend
Karkat, Vriska and Terezi didn't learn fucking shit and remain jokes forever
>>82077028
yeah i really needed to see roxy struggling and crying/sweating in her sleep over a long period of time to get the full scope of her character
>>82077051
Actually isn't it kind of weird that nobody but Roxy noticed that those two look fucking identical?
>>82077030
growing up is part of an arc but not the same, because an arc demands a certain narrative structure, like having a start and an end/resolve
>>82075615
No such thing as a good racebend.
>>82077051
Realtalk if there is a legit TV show I'm going to assume it'll just be a bunch of kids playing a normal session with some waaaaaaacky caveats
Like a played straight simplistic version of Homestuck with maybe trolls for viewbait and that's about it
and it's gonna be awful as hell
>>82077102
name a single arc in >>8207700 that didn't have an end
>>82076983
Why would Jade need lubricant for Dave's four-incher?
>>82077092
do you not know how literature works
you don't have to show the whole thing, just a moment of decision, a moment of temptation, and then a moment of renewed determination
if you put all of those things together, you have a pretty solid character arc
>>82077147
aw is baby sad her story checklist didnt get checked
>>82077012
Nice. I just realized I don't have any good dogtier jade fanart
>>82077144
Dude I'm not even saying she's wet, just want to educate people that that's natural lube and not cum.
>>82077179
no I'm not particularly a fan of roxy
I'm sad that Homestuck is shit in general
>>82077147
Homestuck isn't literatureIt's shiterature
>>82075538
So horrible, yet so... acceptable as true.
>>82077195
your sorting of a proper narrative into a rigid checklist is why literature is dying out
>>82077144
It's not like it's voluntary or anything. It's just that after so long alone she sees him and it swells and moistens up like an automated water balloon.
>>82077224
I don't buy this argument and I never will
It's good to keep things fresh but simply not showing things is not a revolutionary move
Homestuck is shit in many ways because it doesn't show, it tells, and that is one rule of literature that is eternal.
>>82077266
keeping the alpha kids secondary to the story by timeskipping them, which also built conflict, kept us from slogging through yet another baseline sburb session that would've been even more boring considering the specifications of the session
>>82077266
Re-watch Terezi: Remem8er
meta-narrative
the last refuge of the hack
>>82077302
Yes it was fine to skip the mechanics of SBURB, because we had already seen them before. But rushing the character development and dumping it all into pages-at-a-time pesterlogs is what caused people to dislike the alpha kids and grow bored with Act 6.
>>82077330
We could have had a Nepeta-narrative instead
What designs are you guys liking in the contest?
>>82077255
Is there anything with Jade being an ultra submissive puppygirl that just is desperate for affection
>>82077385
We kinda did, when you think about it.
>>82077330
homestuck has been a meta-narrative since literally the first page
are you new
>>82077378
no characters actually "developed" in that span besides Roxy kicking the alcoholism
>>82077437
I'm giving them all a 1 on principle
>>82075538
>both dave and dirk looking askance at paedophile/orc jake
>>82077330
As long as this isn't done by many lazy authors to excuse shit, they can't resolve, it's fine.
It was one quirk of the story and it worked, considering it's popularity
>>82077462
Well they changed over time, but the changes weren't meaningful because the appropriate dramatic weight wasn't hitched to them.
>>82077456
it wasn't an excuse
>>82073905
In no particular order:
The Ultimate Riddle
Horrorterrors
The way )(IC escaped the Scratch
Draconian Dignitary, Drollgorg
Ring of Void, Trickster juju, the cueballs being LE's weakness (though you could said Juju!Dave had Caledflwch with him)
GCATavros, (Vriska), the Game Over cast
The kids actually leaving for the Masterpiece
SBURB being a vicious cycle that Calliope wanted them to break (but they just perpetrated it in the end)
The great big thing Jade was supposed to do as a Space player according to alt Calliope (pre-pause)
Vriska's sources
>>82075352
>Jane
>Not getting together with Tavros
>Not pairing the bull with the cow
>>82077504
i'm fairly sure the point of their "barren" session was that neither they or their game changed at all as people
roxy was already a good person prior to the alcholism, and getting rid of it just allowed her to be more of herself
besides a few shifts in character dynamics between everyone they didnt change much as people, and its not expected for them to considering they had 6 months while the kids went for 3 years
>>82077554
>The way )(IC escaped the Scratch
HOW ABOUT HOW SHE GOT TO THAT UNIVERSE AT ALL
So like
I just watched act 7
what the fuck happened with everything?
What the fuck happened to Lord English? It looks like nothing actually happened to him and then everyone just went on with their lives into a new universe, even though we know that he can find and destroy other universes. I get something vague happened, but I must have missed it.
>>82077554
>the cueballs being LE's weakness
LITERALLY addressed in Act 7, its part of his mortality clock
>>82077580
Chill, she worked for LE, he crammed her naked body in his sarcophagus and traveled through time and space while drenching her thighs in his spunk
>>82077554
zillywave and sawhoo
I want to slap Calliope's whore face
I want to spit on Calliope
I want to punch Calliope's belly repeatedly
I want to piss on Calliope
I want to forcefully make Calliope stuck into a wall so all of paradox space can rape her until she's nothing but a sex loving pregnant skeleton
I want to eyefuck Calliope's hollow head and cum inside until her head is filled with my cum, making it drip from her eyes
I want to make Roxy step on Calliope's butthole with a stilleto
I want to launch Calliope in the ground and rape her mouth
I want to violate Calliope's virginity
I want to penetrate Calliope's asshole to make it bleed,but then keep going until she's wrecked with pain
I want to make Calliope get raped by her brother
I want to step on Calliope
I want to cover Calliope's body in cum, so much that her entire body is slimy and sticky
I want toshiton Calliope
>>82077612
kids go to their universe ---> later go and teleport to Caliborn (remember the claymation) and get trapped in the juju/create Lord English ---> are later released to fight against LE
this last fight was not shown for reasons and may be addressed in the epilogue
>>82077612
Popular interpretation: The Juju sent him into the black hole alt Calliope created.
>>82077646
Calm down here, uu.
>>82077646
don't you fucking touch her you piece of shit
>>82077646
...
a'ight
Does anyone else feel that after After 5 Hussie just gave up on story structure and pacing?
>>82077646
>
>>82077650
Oh shit so that box that Vriska drags around is them? Ok, well, time to wait another 6 months for hussy to release the epilogue to his "finished" story.
>>82077557
Whether or not that was the point I don't know but I don't really agree that that's how it shook out. Compare Dirk and Jake at the end of Act 6 to their personalities at the beginning. They both come across as defeated, depressed people and it shows in their dialogue. This is a pretty negative change though and they never really seem to find resolution because the story cuts off before they can. It's like they're halfway through their arc and then we skip straight to the end where they frolic in the fields together and play soccer. But we didn't see how they got to that point so it's a pretty empty gesture.
>>82077554
> The Ultimate Riddle
Wasn't it said or implied, that the story itself with it's "random" plotpoints like...Terezis Judgement based on various irrelevant things, that lead to Vriskas death pre-retcon was that riddle?
> (Vriska)
Re-watch Rerezi: Remem8er
> the Game Over cast
That's a weird one. I assumed they just weren't existing, but Terezi still existed in Remem8er
calliope is not for harming
>>82077642
That was a fucking joke. Inb4 "What about Homesuck"?
>>82077703
Jake gets to be a hero when finally left to his own devices like a Page should, which I think is the perfect ending for his little arc.
Dirk's is weird, considering he's kind of just listening to Dave, but considering he's for the first time ever NOT in charge of everything he just gets the time to be introspective
At least the little "new universe" snippet shows that they have reconciled.
>>82077646
Good luck bro.
>>82077757
Calliope IS for sexual abuse
I want tovoreher
I want her to be shamed in public,being called out on her sluttyness
>>82077621
But he wasn't there either!
>>82077851
>Lord English
>not there
>>82077788
I don't agree. Jake didn't want to be a hero, he wanted to make up with his friends and not feel awkward around them anymore. Doing something heroic might be the impetus that leads him to that, but without actually showing some transitional scenes, it results in an unsatisfying, incomplete arc that relies on the reader to fill in far too many blanks.
>>82077771
but they were imbued with zillystuff
they could have at least served as a distraction for LE rather than aradia or something. (sorry ara ara)
their only purpose since introduction was to help dirk enter and that fucking sucks
for muh calroxy pals
>>>/aco/522157
>>82077928
goodness
MAKE HOMESTUCK GREAT AGAIN
Are than any pics ofRoxy objectifying or pushing John around
I would like some if that's okay.
>>82077928
> Calio being evil
> Caliopegi being nice
I smell shitty game theories
>>82077928
The best
>>82077963
canon calroxy copulation
>>82077757
You're right, it would be much more effective to simply remove her from existence entirely.
Good thinking.
>Roxy wants to give the ring to the person she wants to marry
>gives it to Calliope the eternal 11 year old and not the boy she likes
why
>>82077554
>SBURB being a vicious cycle that Calliope wanted them to break (but they just perpetrated it in the end)
This is probably what pisses me off the most. Those slimy labcoat fucks won.
>>82077996
don't you know that the Caliborn we saw is a red herring and someone is going to say his name around Calliope and he's going to emerge and then the ring of life is going to turn into the ring of void
seriously did anything ever come of that "say my name and I'll wake up" deal
>>82077998
that fucking face
i'm in love
>>82077987
Tumblr finds this ship to be disgusting, it's pretty funny.
>>82078057
>seriously did anything ever come of that "say my name and I'll wake up" deal
to make Caliborn "he who must not be named" in the new universe
>>82077554
>the Game Over cast
>GO Karkat ignited by lava
>ghost along with Kanaya's doesn't appear in Terezi: Remember
>>82078048
Because getting to know a nice person in death, while you realize, that this ring can revive them, can change how you want to use it
>>82078117
where do you even GET these stupid ideas
>>82078048
>eternal 11 year old
>assumptions
>>82078091
It's a great interpretation
repostin
>>82078171
The skirt's in the way, now I can't tell how fine a drawing this is!
>>82078139
Checking the tumblr tags.
>>82077987
that pic is really cute
>>82078117
since when
>>82078171
now repost it with less clothing
>>82078171
I love this Joey!
>>82078235
honestly i'm not seeing it
where are you seeing it
>>82078171
thats cool
they should hire you
>>82077987
I don't have any of her scooping him up to carry him off or anything.
>continues to perpetuate the myth that HSG and Tumblr aren't one and the same
Any good MC-centric fanfics out there?
>>82078340
>Roxy being STRONG GF
ANGEL HELP
>What are some of the biggest dropped plot points in Homestuck?
That implies that more than zero of them were solved.
Gosh, has it really been that long when we were warning people that Hussie was writing himself into a corner again?
>>82078339
implying they can afford to
>>82077987
Screw that, where's my submissive puppygirl Jade
The service here is terrible
>>82078361
http://archiveofourown.org/works/593845
>>82078340
Wait I'm actually a fucking liar against all odds
>>82078413
>>82078413
>Aradia knows carapaces are asexual
READ THE COMIC AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>82078492
The comic actually postulates they reproduce through cloning. The fact that they have sex and have internal genitalia comes from only Hussie hmself.
>>82078413
nice nicenice
>you know what at least johnroxy wasnt canon. every time the two of them look at each other everyone flips out about their Sweet Hetero Love but they didnt become canon so i dont have to see that bs
>fucking PREACH i swear just let roxy callie and jane be poly and gay please and take ur heteronormativity to some other shitty universe
>i’ve seen ppl making posts abt them ‘married nd adopted calliope’ tho like… no that is Heterosexushell Nonsense!! >38
These people have problems.
>>82078511
it's pretty blatant from the comic that carapaces do have sexual urges though
see jack/bq, dd/condy, the way wv and ar respond to pm in act 3, the monarchies, the smut the midnight crew carry around, and slick/ms paint
>>82078570
And this fic gave Droog a dick so just shut up and enjoy it
>>82078564
>i’ve seen ppl making posts abt them ‘married nd adopted calliope’
thats what FUCKIN HAPPENED
THEYR'E AN IMMORTAL NEVER AGING FAMILY NUM NUTS
>>82078564
It's like when everybody was screaming Dirk wasn't gay, people really don't like having their worldview challenged.
>>82078603
>>82078564
reminder that davekat is canon
