I feel like Disney's recent burst of movies are some of the best they've done, even better than their Renaissance era (With a couple of exceptions). Even though films like Tarzan are fantastic, their "comedy moments" with the girl Gorilla and Elephant weigh down the film. Same with the talking furniture in Beauty & the Beast, or Timon and Pumbaa. Any moment when we cut away from the story to see hi-jinx with the comedy relief was always their biggest flaw.
I feel like they've managed to eliminate that for the most part because films like Zootopia, Big Hero 6, Wreck It Ralph, even Tangled feel consistent in tone overall. I never feel a gigantic break in story like I do with Pocahontas and that stupid fucking raccoon.
Anyone else feel the same?
>>81697953
>le Disney was good after the 60s meme
No but seriously, I agree with you that newer Disney films have a more consistent tone than those in their Renaissance era. The comedy moments in films like Lion King and Beauty and the Beast are some of the worst attempts at cartoon humour ever.
I still don't think that Zootopia, Big Hero 6, Wreck It Ralph or Tangled were any good though
>>81697953
I think that might have something to do with making the comedy relief more of an actual character. Maximus serves as both comic relief and as a character who moves the story along, whereas the dog in Pocahontas (whose name I don't remember, and probably for good reason) could be taken out and the story would still be the same.
The gargoyles could also be taken out of Hunchback, but you'd lose a bit of Quasimodo's characterization if you did that. Still, I wouldn't mind it if he only spoke to them as the objects they were, to really enforce the sense that he's so totally lonely but kind and caring enough to call anyone a friend.
So yeah, instead of long gags you get short ones, and often between main or secondary characters instead of the THIS IS THE COMIC RELIEF character, whose only job is that or serving as a foil for the main character instead of doing anything themselves.
I wouldn't say that this keeps a consistent tone but it does feel more streamlined this way.
>>81697953
I only really watch Tangled for the Rapunzel's feet. Flynn's alright though.
>>81699719
Please put in more effort next time.
>>81697953
It's what I thought when I watched Lion King recently.
Their renaissance movies were great, but when it comes to humor, the movies had very low quality ones. The gargoyles in Hunchback come in mind too.
Even Frozen had decent comedy breaks with Olaf, which was surprising since he looked really ridiculous in the promos.
>>81697953
>Even though films like Tarzan are fantastic, their "comedy moments" with the girl Gorilla and Elephant weigh down the film.
I didn't figure out that the gorilla was supposed to be a girl until years after the fact.
>>81697953
No the Renaissance movies were better. But the recent movies do have better comedy moments. But I can't say I care about that too much.
>>81701480
I still keep on forgetting that the gorilla is a girl
Fucking this. Finally.
This is probably the best era Disney's been in since the golden age. Their most recent movies really know what works and how to use them, for as great as the renaissance was it did have very noticeable and exploitable problems that were pointed out a great length. Not to say the current age is perfect, but it's far better than the nostalfgiafags would have you believe
The recent Mickey Youtube shorts are pretty great too.
>>81701410
>Even Frozen had decent comedy breaks with Olaf, which was surprising since he looked really ridiculous in the promos.
Yeah, Olaf was surprisingly not terrible. But the trolls and their song were awful.
>>81697953
Renaissance formula:
>Designated comic relief sidekick
>Main plot is the protagonist trying to win over their love interest
>Hammy villain
Modern formula:
>Comedy is spread across the cast more evenly
>Buddy movie with a guy and girl pair
>Villain seems like a trustworthy person for most of the movie
The second point in particular seems to be where Disney found their cash cow. It gives them the widest possible audience.
>>81701778
I have never in my entire fucking life liked or cared about Mickey Mouse as a character, but the Mickey shorts on youtube are fucking incredible. They're the only time the Mouse ever actually made me laugh.
>>81702043
I agree about the trolls. They are the worst part in an already messy movie, but at least their humor segued well into the story, although it was really weird when the audience was supposed to be worried about Anna's hair, and then suddenly it's singing and teasing with the trolls, then back again into worrying about her hair and heart.
But yeah, the trolls weren't Pocahontas levels of comedy relief.
>>81702244
>Nick "Red Hot Hustle" Wilde
>bumbling emasculated dullard of a dope sub-human male lame ass
Did we watch the same zootopia
>>81699816
I fucking hate the gargoyles in Hunchback so much.
I'd say, fine, if it's a corporate mandate to have comic relief characters, keep them. Hell even if their music number completely clashes with the tone of the movie it's pretty poignant if afterwards it's revealed it's all in Quasimodo's imagination and the gargoyles are just a coping mechanism.
But then the movie shows them briefly helping fight the enemy soldiers in the final act, very clearly having an effect over them, thus not being imaginary, and it completely ruins that angle. You can cut those 10 seconds out of the film and it's a colossal improvement.
Sounds autistic but I'd rate Hunchback a lot higher if it weren't for those 10 seconds.
>>81702244
>Competent Intelligent Girl and loser bumbling emasculated dullard of a dope sub-human male lame ass
This literally only applies to Kristoff.
>>81702244
You're so consistent I'm starting to wonder if you're just playing a character.
>>81702090
>Villain seems like a trustworthy person for most of the movie
To be fair, this only happened with Frozen and Zootopia.
King Candy was already an antagonist right from the start. The reveal just added more evilness to him. Same with Mother Gothel, we already know she's the villain, but the stabbing and attempted kidnapping part 2 in the end added more.
With BH6, we never really get to trust the professor or see him much. I guess I didn't like the execution of it to include it. And BH6 wasn't a guy and girl buddy movie, but it was a buddy movie, yeah.
>>81702316
Nick got re-hustled right back and black mailed into helping the Disney Female Protagonist. No different than Eugene being blackmailed by Rapunzel. You can tell that the writers who make these loser males are absolute King of Beta Males. These are the losers that love Betacai from Regular Show.
>>81702244
I know this is bait, but the great thing about Tangled is that both Eugene and Rapunzel improved/fixed each other. Eugene helped her find her courage and get out of the tower and Rapunzel helped him go the right path.
It's the same with Nick and Judy. Judy needed a dose of reality and Nick needed hope.
I don't have arguments for Naveen because that is kind of true.
>>81702493
Being outsmarted by another character doesn't make you stupid. That you think ever being shown up by a woman makes you wholly emasculated shows how fragile your grip on your masculinity really is.
>>81702423
>With BH6, we never really get to trust the professor or see him much.
It definitely counts. He's portrayed as totally trustworthy and it's supposed to be a big twist when we find out he's a villain.
>>81702369
If you flipped "girl" with "male". Anna forces Kristoff to go when it's at night, attracting wolves and forcing Kristoff to save both of them, she's the one who antagonizes Elsa's large snowman and forces them to run while he gets them out of the way and he's the one who brings her to the trolls for an answer to her problems and he's the one who gets them home. He's clearly his own man, with his own business, and his main issue is that he's fucking poor and anti-social with humans, not that he's some sort of emasculated guy.
The scene where Kristoff is asking Anna about what she knows about Hans shows how competent and intelligent she is and how he's amused by her foolishness.
Anna is the catalyst for almost all of the bad things that happen in the movie (she took the jump when Elsa told her to slow down, she made Elsa angry at the coronation, she set Hans in charge and then left, she kept pushing and got hit by Elsa's magic again, she threw the snowball that got the snowman to chase them) and Kristoff does what he can to help, first out of being hired and after that because he finds her amusing and then starts to care about her (this is where it gets dumb but the main point is that Kristoff does not fall under that description at all).
>>81702507
>>81702244
Almost every single one has the pair learn from each other, not just the guy learning from the girl.
>>81702043
>Yeah, Olaf was surprisingly not terrible. But the trolls and their song were awful.
Olaf turned out to be sweeter and less annoying than expected, but he was still not really needed.
The back and forth between Anna and Kristoff and Elsa and people they met along the way should have been enough to carry the movie.
>>81702590
Yeah I did admit I don't want to include it since the execution was terrible. It was obviously not the hammy CEO, so that leaves the other guy available.
>>81702634
Yeah, a real man loses his shit over children's movies.
>>81702651
Ralph did learn a lot, but I can't really remember much what Vanellope got out from their journey.
What did PtF have for that? The girl learned to relax? What did Kristoff learn from Anna? I'm genuinely curious btw, cause I can't remember.
I feel like the only recent movies that had a strong "they learn from each other" vibe were Tangled and Zootopia.
>>81702634
>I got a better idea.
>this post
I'm gonna call bullshit on that claim.
>>81702765
Please keep talking, I want to see how many buzzwords you can fit into a single post.
>>81702833
>What did PtF have for that? The girl learned to relax?
She learned that relationships are important, not just financial success.
Anna wore down Kristoff's anti-social tendencies.
>>81702894
Gynocentrism is not a buzzword. It's a real word and it's Disney's core philosophy when making money. Hence the saying Disney is for Girls.
>>81702634
>Tell him to make a film where EVERYTHING bad happens only to the female character
I feel like that almost happened to Rapunzel. If Mother Gothel successfully got Rapunzel in the end, it's a movie about a girl who got abducted as a child, isolated in the tower, got her mind fucked, and saw the guy she liked get stabbed in front of her. Plus her pet got kicked.
>>81702833
Without Ralph she would never have learned that she wasn't a glitch and she would never have been able to race.
Kristoff already knows how to love, since he clearly gets along with his troll family and with Sven, but he has issues with humans. Look at the way he talks to her and the shopkeeper initially, and his song about reindeers being better than people.
>>81697953
I actually liked Mushu and the cricket in Mulan. It wouldn't have affected the movie if they were taken out, but I liked them. Probably bad taste.
>>81702997
>>81702936
>Without Ralph she would never have learned that she wasn't a glitch and she would never have been able to race.
I was asking more on self-improvement-wise?
>She learned that relationships are important, not just financial success.
Oh yeah, good point. It didn't feel much since it seemed liked the guy needed to learn a lot than her, like the stakes were bigger for him to learn something by the end, but yeah good point.
Same with Kristoff. It's good that he learned to be more social, but it didn't feel much.
Another movie where I feel like both male and female leads learned something from each other is Hercules.
>>81703113
Don't worry, I liked them too.
>>81703246
>"Meh with my looks? I can get another chump easy."
I'm enjoying your role play. It's good you put effort in your baitposting.
I hope to god that the pig and rooster in Moana don't talk and don't get into movie-disrupting wacky hijinks. They look like they probably won't talk at least, and they could potentially turn out to be kinda cute, but it could go either way. I'm still not sure why the movie would need a pig or rooster sidekick, though, let alone both.
>>81703324
I'm trying to be hopeful for this, but it just gives me Pocahontas flashbacks
>>81703246
>>>/r9k/
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time in highschool kid, maybe this board would better fit your mentality.
>>81702973
They changed the titles of Frozen and Tangled from their respective fairytales so as to not seem like "girly" movies
>>81703561
Doesn't change the intended demographic and who the true bread and butter is for the corporation.
>>81703605
It's families with kids. Girls and boys. Teenagers who want something fun and familiar. Young adults who grew up on Disney and think the same thing.
Now, if we're talking merchandising, that's different.
>>81703113
All the comic relief characters worked on me as a kid. I fucking LOVED Timon and Pumbaa and their show. But that's the thing, it made those films and pushed animation films as a whole as a "it's obviously for kids!" kinda thing. I re-watch those films now and I cringe at some of the "jokes" in Little Mermaid. Whereas I watch Zootopia and holy shit it's so good even as an adult.
>>81703324
If they don't talk they'll just be another chameleon from tangled
>>81703759
>I cringe at some of the "jokes" in Little Mermaid
I thought that was one of the lesser offenders
>>81703848
No, I mean normal, nuclear families, not just the ones you think about when you get out the ol' fleshlight.
>>81697953
>Timon and Pumbaa
The only thing wrong with your thesis
The only comic relief that wasn't super annoying or grating
>>81703324
They don't look like they'll talk. I imagine they'll be similar to Pascal or the critters from Pocahontas.
>>81703904
I personally think their fart joke wasn't that bad, and overall their jokes were okay. It was just jarring how the scene would go to their humor then back again on the serious story.
>>81703904
>>81703997
Their show and LK1/2 weren't bad at all. They're good characters, they probably wouldn't have been better having never been in the lion king
>>81703788
I really hope they're more like the cricket from Mulan.
>>81703324
>I'm still not sure why the movie would need a pig or rooster sidekick, though, let alone both.
As far as animals go, Chickens and Pigs were a major part of ancient South East Asian and Polynesian culture.
So they're basically the Sven/Meeko & Flint/Flounder & Sebastian/Abu/Mushu&Cricket of the movie. The cute animal sidekicks.
>>81703997
>It was just jarring how the scene would go to their humor then back again on the serious story.
After Mufasa's death, we (the kids) NEEDED that shit. It also helps that immediately after that are the slow and thoughtful scenes and a love scene/song (usually my most hated part of Disney films as a kid) before we got back into the action of Simba facing Scar.
As an adult, yeah, I could do without, but I remember how I felt when I saw it as a kid. Timon and Pumba were like when your parents got you ice cream and pizza or a new bike after your dog died.
I agree that this new formula is overall more balanced. The big problem with post-Lion King renaissance films is that they found this cash cow formula and assumed that in order to continue making crazy sales, they had to stick to that formula to a T. That's what made films like Hunchback unable to reach their full potential. It's like they had these projects already in place, and there's was already too much work done on them to back out so they just shoehorn in some comedic sidekicks and some mediocre musical numbers to keep with the formula that broke all the records. And then Eisner got extra greedy...laying off all those animators and firing Katzenberg and whatever. The only post-Lion King renaissance film to break the mold was Tarzan.
So yeah this new era is pretty consistent, the only thing that really disappoints me about it is that there's no more 2D animation, and they're sticking to the Tangled (not hating since Tangled is my 2nd favourite film from this era) base designs for their human characters, excluding Wreck-It-Ralph. Though with Moana it looks like they're being more creative with the builds of the characters?
>>81701778
This guy knows what's up.
>>81697953
>Same with the talking furniture in Beauty & the Beast, or Timon and Pumbaa. Any moment when we cut away from the story to see hi-jinx with the comedy relief was always their biggest flaw.
Finally, someone says it!
I remember a writer saying, "If you're going to have comic relief then make your characters provide comic relief, don't make comic relief characters."
There's a reason why Hades, Philoctetes, Kuzco, Yzma, and Woody are more memorable than Pain, Panic, the gargoyles, Timon, and Pumba.
Who was the worst comic relief of that era?
It's got to be either the gargoyles from Hunchback or Mole from Atlantis.
>>81705150
Mole was great. I vote the gargoyles.
>>81705150
I really didn't mind Mole, especially considering his screentime gets diluted between such a large cast. Also I have a soft spot for french perverts.
And like I think someone mentioned earlier, at least the gargoyle's contributed some to Quasi's character development and could be vastly improved if only you can think of them as figments of Quasi's mind rather than magical creatures that are literally there. I usually support the notion that Hunchback would be better if you cut the gargoyles and had Quasi talking to silent statues, but I still admit that I would honestly miss the line they drop about "we're only made of stone. we thought you were made of something stronger" if that happened.
I really hate Mushu, though. He was an irredeemable ass that we were supposed to like for no reason, his humor didn't fit the movie at all, and he contributed nothing of value.
>>81705011
so true, the comedy from Emperors New Groove came from the main cast of characters themselves
>>81705150
I don't even remember Mole. Gargoyles went from tolerable to annoying and outright silly during the ending.
>>81705011
This is true, especially Hades.
>>81705451
>I really hate Mushu, though. He was an irredeemable ass that we were supposed to like for no reason, his humor didn't fit the movie at all, and he contributed nothing of value.
I liked him. He was the asshole that only thought of himself in the beginning but learned to look out for Mulan in the end.
He was an ass in Mulan 2 though, then again Disney sequels were usually garbage during that time.
>>81705934
>he learned to look out for Mulan in the end
I didn't really get this vibe from him even at the end, though. Even after he recognized he was being selfish, I don't remember him ever getting over that or making any sacrifice to make up for it. He continues to help Mulan, but helping Mulan and making her a hero is still the best thing for him to do if he's still just in it for himself, so it doesn't really have meaning or give him any redemption. He kinda has no choice but to at least stick with her until they get home anyway. The only nice thing I remember him doing was when he gave Mulan a hug, but that was when he was feeling shitty for being a failure too and it helped make him feel a little better as well. I actually cannot think of a single action of his that can't be interpreted as self serving.
>>81705011
Timon, and Pumba are on the wrong side there pal
>>81706286
He was there when Mulan was thrown out, and when Mulan wanted to go back to tell Shang and the others I remember him hesitating, probably worried for Mulan now that she's known as a fraud and that the bad guy saw her face. If he was still an asshole, he would prod her to go back and win some points for old Mushu's rep.
Honestly I watched Zootopia and I really liked it, but for a movie about race relations it was super bland and safe and VERY corporate. Maybe I'm just getting old.
>>81699816
This.
>>81702317
Its not autistic, thats a very common opinion by people that watched it without nostalgia goggles
>>81707296
>super bland and safe
Yeah, I get that feeling. I thought the movie was okay (I understand that it was well constructed but I just didn't enjoy it that much) but it really pulled its punches, which kept it from being better.
>>81702423
>King Candy was already an antagonist right from the start
He was an antagonist, but he wasn't a villain
Really just the idea of a switcheroo reveal is tired now. And it also cuts into the potential for charismatic disney villains, which is what made the renaissance so great.
>>81707296
>>81707454
I thought it was subtle, which I liked.
It wasn't actually about race relations, but just prejudice in general.
>>81707491
I think the point is that there's not as much feeling of betrayal and shock to go around when the antagonistic character turns full villain versus when the love interest or helpful character does. We're supposed to like the latter and understand, if not dislike, the former.
>>81705011
I agree, but timon and pumba play a huge part of the story
And pain and panic are more of extensions of hades and fit the tone of the movie more with fourth wall breaking and such, but maybe I'm biased because I find them funny
>>81707491
He was borderline villain right before the reveal. At first he seemed like he was just concerned with his game and winning, but he just kept doing crazier punishments and actions, and then we see he did some shit with the core of the game. He started out as an antagonist and ended up a villain (even before the reveal) when we saw him fucking up with the programming and obviously outright stopping Vanellope from joining the races.
They never really hid that he was the bad guy, there was no switcheroo at all. The Turbo reveal was just a bonus, like a nice old cherry on top.
>>81707508
It was about prejudice in general but it clearly included elements of race relations.
>>81707508
Subtle is not the word I would use to describe it
>>81707508
the fact that it dealt a little with prejudice cutting both ways was interesting to see, since that's a thing that's often vehemently denied by social campaigners and ultimately severely holds back actual progress.
the mayor's motivations were likewise refreshingly complicated for this kind of film.
>>81707999
The scrapped story before it was hammier and too on the nose, so it's why i call the new one or the Zootopia that we ultimately got, subtler.
>>81708018
>since that's a thing that's often vehemently denied by social campaigners and ultimately severely holds back actual progress.
Yeah it was interesting to see everyone in it was kind of an asshole at some point.
>>81708229
things we don't see don't really matter
Zootopia is a good movie but it was not subtle, just because it could have been even less subtle doesn't change what it is
>>81708306
I did like how Nick knew she wasn't actually "racist" after the press conference, but was just being a shit because smug fox
Also for all the shipping the two characters were pretty solidly platonic friends.
>>81708360
I still think the way they showed Judy, the main character, as someone prejudiced was subtler than I expected. And I just feel they had a jab at a lot of people, like sjws and such, without being too obvious.
So what movie started this new renaissance?
Tangled?
>>81709549
If we're talking about comedic relief finally playing into the main plot, then PatF is probably more of the start of things from a character perspective, but it didn't perform as well as Disney had hoped whereas Tangled forced Disney to pour money into developing their animation department, which paid for itself over time, so yeah, it's probably Tangled.
