I dont see why Marvels seasonal mod is a bad thing. A team comes on
Tells there 12 issues, and if its good it gets picked up for another 12, or maybe a new team comes and puts there spin on it. It also gives Marvel a Calendar, if you do trading cards it reminds me of how mtg sets come out cycle wise. And the idea of discreet tv seson like units of story is a lot better than doing it all hap hazardly. If anything it's an extension of the "series of miniseries" model Hellboy and Transformers used, snd it feels like officializing something thats always been done. Like remember how Moz Batman was a three part saga of Rip/Black Glove Batman and Robin/Return and Inc? We already use runs as the units of story, so why not just make it smoother for everyone were every run is its own entity. It also is more logical, with a comic issue #2 should be the second part of a story, not issie #27. Batgirl of Burnside had no excuse for not being a new series and it for sure is not the 35th instalment of a serial
I honestly think this is a knee jerk against change because we are so caught in inertia. The only real downside I see is confusion between series, but basic subtitles and presentation solve that easily. Hell, put ads for the trades of the previous runs back covered.
Imagine an age were discreet runs are packaged in discreet stories. "Hey here is Hicklegion books 1 and 2 and then you can pick up Waylegion #1 as floppies or digital "
And from a pragmatic model it means you can slot your big events right at the end/begginning of these "blocks" A kind of Comic New Years were all the books get built up to epic finales, and the new stuff is teased out. I would even adopt the dc model of buying runs in orderes of 12, so instead of cancelations, you get a whole run, a whole story and then instead of beeing ended mid stream, they just can choose whether to order a new one, that lets low selling title a chance to breath and maybe pick up fans and trade sales and the like.
>>81662691
A season model would not be that bad for marvel IF they stopped the event bullshit.
For example, Extraordinary x-men # 8 started the apocalypse wars event when instead we could have digged in other stuff like what was nightcrawler doing with Sinister, why is Ice-man suddently soo gay.
There are also worst examples like starting your new series as a tie in of an event ( spider-woman, mighty avengers ), these event only put barriers to the writers and dont allow them to tell the story they want to until, instead they have to tell the story marvel wants them to tell.
>>81662691
>Hicklegion
Get the fuck out with your Hickman LOSH desires. This is the ultimate monkey paw and I have no idea why you fuckers can't see it.
>>81662691
I really did feel that DC confernce they did should be an annual thing.
When would Comics New Year be?
FCBD or deeper in the Summer?
Marvel maybe lets a book run for 6 or 7 issues on low sales these days, with two or three events a year.
>>81662902
>2 OR 3
let see
>Stand off
>dead no more
>civil war 2
>apocalypse wars
>last days of magic
>spiders women crossover
>death of X
you mean 6 or 7
Because comics are based off the TV model of storytelling with emphasis on cliffhangers, hooking the readers, all sorts of gimmicky crap, running their brands into the ground and milking them for all they're worth, etc. instead of the movie model of giving you a decent complete story in one sitting and letting you move on with your life. That's why we still have floppies at all instead of trades like the vast majority of new readers prefer.
>>81662951
I'm trying only to count the ones that tie-in a majority of books.
12 issue runs with a set peak for them all in the summer is an idea, OP.
But it makes already formulaic storytelling even more so and it kills the idea of developing characters or a supporting cast.
This is dumb as fuck btw >>81662987 - seeing comics as 'tv' or 'movies' is part of the fucking problem.
>>81662881
I was using it as an example of a non existent book.>>81662858
This is also why I think it woukd be good, depending how you cut it, you could get 12 issues, then "nee years" is a big event and event tie ins, then that ends and you get shiny new series with a new status quo,
There is this motto in game design I think applies here, cut them off JUST before they feel finished, that keeps em coming back to play. Its like edging.
>The Cycle
1.
New #1s push, press comfernce, exiting new creators cool looking books,variants etc,full press tour.
You get a flood of sales from this boost, enough to support the rest of the year
2. Comics stabilize with the fanbases who stayed on from the number 1s, awesme properly compressed stories(remember, these guys only get picked up for 12 issues at a time, so it discourges prog rock overly decompressed aimless filler bushit)
3. First half ends, first six issue trades come out, we get a mid year shot in the arm from bookstore sales and folks buying tpbs
4. We start seeding hype for the summer event
5. Books have there epic conclusion at the same time the event comes out. The eventfags and the fanfags form a nexus that drives sales
6. The event gets its own "mini block" with tie ins basicallt as a subline like how Secret Wars did
7. Huge press confernce simulcast, ariring the new status quos and new #1s right when the event ends, the final trades ride the hype, coming out now and prepping readers for the nee #1s
8. Repeat
I think this model would work, any suggestions?
Cool thing about a set calender is you can start syncing things. Timing dc aninted films to trade releases, films to your big event season(in summer were blockbuster superhero films are) and if dc keeps its training program, "graduation day" for a whole crop of new creators( seriously dc needs to make that program permanent)
>>81662902
>>81662951
>>81663010
Yeah clealry a mistake, I think the season model is the right move, Marvel is just not doing it right.
If you keep chopping up the season, its not a season
I hope not. We wouldn't have some great runs if there was a seasonal model. A run goes to shit with every relaunch or reboot. I think DC's model for rebirth is right. Characters who can endure long run will be in the main DC line. Obscure characters and alternative comics go to another imprint where they can endure long runs because of lower cancellation numbers.
>>81663036
Watchmen, All Star Superman, Omega Men all did it in 12. Batgirl of Burnside,which opinions aside was a wide sucess, did it on 12. Hush did it in 12. Ellisbolts and The Authority did it in 12. Millerbats did it in less than 12. The idea you need this long drawn out mega saga is a cancer in comics, giving us shit like Hick's N/A.
If you have multiple actual stories to tell by all means, do one. Then the other. Then the other. Novels, film sequels, tv shows are all discreet, they come out in set units of story. Its just a basic tenet of consumption, you want things in servings, not a slow drip over a long time. You eat breakfest lunch and dinner not one bit every two hours for a week
>>81663222
A lot of runs already act Seasonal anyway. Look at Snyder bats.
And what great runs have had this happen to them?
>>81663281
>The idea you need this long drawn out mega saga is a cancer in comics, giving us shit like Hick's N/A.
Or what, Planetary? The entire Ostrander Suicide Squad run?
Like the fact you would even mention All-Star Superman here, which only works because so much of the background of the character is already established, is retarded. Or Omega Men which massively references previous runs and continuity. It's not the length of a run that makes it good or bad. There is no "slow drip" vs. a run of 12 or a run of 24 or 54, they are all coming at the same rate. An arc has no set length.
Your problem mainly seems to be about how things are written rather than the actual length of any run, and you think packaging things in set units of a story or with set guidelines will standardize and improve that. Let me tell you, with editorial as it currently sits in comics: no it fucking won't.
>>81663323
That's not seasonal. Snyder just wrote some stretched out huge events containing 6 issues or more.
Johns' GL lost it's stride post flashpoint, same with DickBats and now even Grayson. Ms Marvel had a great finish, making the current run less remarkable.
>>81663281
That's just nitpicking. Swap thing, Miracleman, Sandman, Doom Patrol, Invisibles are great inspite of being longer runs. It depends on what the writer wants to write rather than giving them a set number of issues and asking them to compress it or decompress it to fit those.
>>81663418
Note the age of those books.
Besides, Planetary was such a unique case with how it came out, its hard to bring it here.
But if you look at modern day, the good "mega runs" folks try to embody, Batman and Green Lanterns five year plans, all had discreet seasonal models anway.
You get to today and you get stuff like Azz Wonder Woman or N/A. If anything officiizing the seasons that already were there would make the folks who want to d these mega arcs work better.
>Ok so vol 1 we bring back Green Lantern and hype upthis massive war
>Vol 2 we do this massive war and bring in other factions
>Vol 3 we have them all fighting and then we end in a big blow out event
Instead of, and again I keep going to hickman because its really the only recent mega arc
>Yeah, this happes then this and uh what do I write, throw this in....
N/A was almost entirely improvised, sometimes within days. He was.just bullshiting as he went and it shows..
Actual good stories wouldnt be cut by a seasonal model but by design they would make prog rock hackery harder to do.
Its like a a literacy test, its only a barrier if you already suck
>>81663513
I never said they werent, you implied 12 issues isnt enough to tell a good story, that is only true of hacks
>>81663513
Johns lost its stride after Blackest Night, Mozbats only had one volume come after the reboot which admittly wasnt the best.
In both cases they just petered out, the reboot didnt makeGL shit, it did it like a steorotypical film trikogy. The second one is the best, the third is okay but not as good and then the continuations keep sucking(this happened to Star Wars and Avatar, and from a certain pov Spider- Man)
>>81663099
I like this model, although the 12 issue number should be a bit more flexible, like 11 or 14 maybe as long as the time is roughly okay.
You brought up MTG, setting up a "preview season" would be briiant
Comics are already doing this, just haphazardly and sloppy, a calender is a great idea.
I would love for Marvel to release a Shonnen Jump type book with all their weekly shit, then move to a trade-friendly format. The big releases each week is all the new TPBs, with a standalone book for people who want to read weekly.
Comics right now are such a chore to get into since there's little indication on whether you're jumping in during the middle of a story or not, that's why normal books, and even graphic novels/manga is more popular than comics.
>>81662691
>keeping the same team on most books
>tons of variants
>stealth cancelling when it doesn't met expectations
>having crossovers 5-7 issues in for some books
>relaunching out of a huge world changing event
They aren't doing to for story purposes or to make it easier on readers or writers, anon. They're doing it so they can get #1 money, which is an incredibly short term way of getting more sales.
In fact one of the complaints about ANAD from retailers is how marvel lost some of the new readers they gained with Squirrel Girl, Thor, Spider-gwen, etc, because those readers don't get why their book got interrupted, cancelled, and relaunched despite continuing where it left off.
>>81664246
Antholgies are not feasible unless they are dirt cheap and made with borderline slave labor
>>81664396
Yeah I know. I agree with the premise, not the practice.
Although it confuses me how people who were aparently loyal followers didnt just show up, ask for their Spider Gwen, notice the new number for a second and then move on.
>>81664396
And now marvel has basically ruined relaunches for everyone and burned readers and retailers out due to them doing like 4 of them in 5 years.
Retailers have been saying positive things about Rebirth so it'll be interesting if that helps any or if it's like ANAD where many books are worse off than before.
we are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia
>>81663281
>The idea you need this long drawn out mega saga is a cancer in comics, giving us shit like Hick's N/A.
No, decompression is cancer. Most writers can't write for a single issue anymore, so instead of getting a fairly complete story every month, you get 1/4 of a story every month.
>>81664614
And beeing given 12 issues at a time would force proper compression. You cant afford to bushit when 12 issues may be all you get. No fuck your drawn out 50 issue outline you wrote when you were fourteen, give me exactly what you are putting out there and be done with it.
The Authority, supposedly the archon of decomoression was only 12 issues.
>>81663281
Dont forget Nextwave
>>81664706
>You cant afford to bushit when 12 issues may be all you get
That still doesn't promise anything. Omega Men is proof that a book can still end up on the chopping block before it's 12 issues is up. Writers need to go back to focusing on crafting dense, concise, singular stories that can fit in a single floppy. MAYBE a three issue arc at most. Shooter had the right idea.
>>81664867
that's only because DC's retarded
>>81665094
It barely sells 8K, that's almost low even for Good Indie Book Standards.
>>81664867
I really couldnt give an arse about sales short term, those are going to be fucked for a while. I am talking structural issues. omega men was a good series, the issue was in delivery method
>>81665171
Comic floppies Sales are meaningless in the big picture. A best seller and a worst seller are both less than 1% of what ONE film is pulling in.
>>81665248
Doesn't stop them from being cancelled.
Meanwhile dc goes back to stupid numbering like 678/874 for batman/superman which will make even less new reader attracted to it.
>>81665305
New readers will buy Detective Comics because it's Batman. Action Comics wasn't selling any better from Pre-Flashpoint. Even so, there has been an article on CBR and BleedingCool that included interviews from LCS that stated that most newer readers were confused on why Marvel rolled back the books to #1 so quickly with some extreme cases preferring to just start dropping the books to not deal with the confusion
>>81665294
Thats a policy decision . Dcyou had the right idea with a 12 issue promise
>>81662691
I like it, but it's hardly what Marvel is doing right now. And the big problem with the model is that it encourages people to trade-wait and the Big 2 needs floppy sales to run.
>>81665305
>>81665594
I actually question if all this new reader chasing even works. It seems like a band aid, when the entire industry is designed t i ward off people, changes some titles doesnr seem that big a deal.
Although thw New 52 did start a massive bump in sales for comics all around. DC has basically become comics jesus, since 1990s they have put out great groundbreaking shit and gotten shit talked and bad sales for it.
Its poetic how dc is the Dark Knight of comics
>>81665772
No they dont. Marvel Entertainment and DC Entertainment get the vast majority of there profit from film, games and merch. The comics branches could shut down tommorow and there bottom line woukd barely notice
>>81662951
Company wideevent isn't really the same thing as a specific event. Civil War 2 pulls in all of the comic (or the majority of them) from the current line, Apocalypse War only deals with the X-Men books.
It's kind of like how Court of Owls wasn't a huge DC event, and Forever Evil was.
>>81665248
>>81665221
You're not making any sense. You say you don't care about floppy sales, yet those currently determine the life a series. You say 12 issues should be the standard, when most books outside of top-tier sellers such as Batman or Spider-Man can barely make it to 12 issues today.
>>81666216
You are acting as if wheter something is cancled or not is just something that naturally happens, the company decides when ans were to cancel a book, and floppies are the minority of comic sales . DCYou already had a 12 issue promise they should have kept, standardizng that supports faith into lower tier books so they can pick up their base and sell what they sell. Even if you dont continue it, you have a single story out there. Bad faith cancelations are a cancer. They pull back on books despite the low risk.
>>81664246
>>81664434
Anthologies are already feasible, but Marvel and DC have no interest in making anthologies because they see that the other publishers making anthologies suffer from poor sales.
To convince Marvel and DC that there is a market for anthologies, you should:
>check out 2000AD
>check out Dark Horse Presents
>check out Island
>check out Heavy Metal
>convince other people to try these comics too
Until those comics get more popular, Marvel and DC will have very little incentive to try out anthologies for themselves.
>>81666330
I actually agree that as part of announcing a book, a minimum number of issues to be produced would be a nice guarantee.
This still doesn't have to be 12 issues though. And it runs with its own problems, many of them similar to contracting for an OGN.
>>81665823
>DC has basically become comics jesus
Good lord, this delusion.
>>81666374
I'd love for Marvel to relaunch Epic Illustrated, but you're right, it's not the 80s anymore and anthologies just don't sell like they used to.
>>81666374
DC has Legends of Tomorrow. It's probably selling like garbage right now.
>>81666374
Antholgies are not feasible dude, check those sales, they are a fundamental bas idea, people want to buy what they want to buy, forcing them to buy an over stuffed book full of shit you dont want it stupid.
Its like if Mcdonalds only sold burgers in 5 dollar combos with nuggets. If I want nuggest i wi buy nuggets just give me a fucking burger
>>81666465
You need to look in context, the indies are thriving right now while dc is struggling its like 1000 dollars vs 1000 pesos
>>81663099
relying on trade sales for a "shot in the arm" would require good trade turnover, which Marvel does not have
>>81667178
>dc is struggling
It really isn't.
DC is, in fact, massively profitable on the order of millions of dollars.
Direct market (so not counting bookstores or Amazon) comics sold about 580 million dollars in 2015, and 25.75% of those dollars went to DC.
Their operating costs do not come close to matching that gross.
They really do have a nice tidy net profit.
>>81667284
Didnt dcyou hemnorage sales?
>>81667228
Well yeah, thus trades beeing integrated into the model. A true seaonal model isnr just relaunching every year it is designing an entire buisness cycle you can repeat consistently.
>>81667137
The fuck are you even saying? Anthologies clearly are feasible-- I just posted four which somehow manage to exist and make a profit.
The reason that DC and Marvel don't make anthologies is because, even though those anthologies make [money], DC and Marvel are only interested in comics that make [more money].
>>81667446
DC You hemorrhaged enough sales to embarrass DC, not enough to threaten DC.
>>81667493
Indies have a far lower bar for sales than the big2 and also dont make anthologies of long running properties with dedicated fanbases.
,you dont see say Dark Horse making a Buffy Hellboy power pack. because that is stupid .
>>81667533
Nothing can threaten dc or marvel.
Every book could do angela numbers and they wouldnt even feel it.
Comics are a lemonade stand outside a cocaine cartel.
>>81662691
Its not a bad idea. We just don't trust them anymore
>>81666465
It's not about the sales, it's about the culture. Comics reporting tends to have a knee-jerk dislike reaction to everything DC does. At the extreme you even get shit like Outhousers.
>>81667573
>Buffy Hellboy power pack.
i wish this happened
>>81667493
>I just posted four which somehow manage to exist and make a profit.
Island sells like shit and is on indefinite hiatus.
>>81667754
I'm still waiting on someone to shit on the Rebirth price drop
>>81667573
What you don't understand about Marvel and DC is that their "higher bar" is arbitrary.
For example, Marvel and DC will cancel a comic that sells only 10k, but that comic isn't losing money at 10k. If they know that a comic will sell 10k, and so they only print 10k copies, and that comic ends up selling 10k, then that comic is profitable. They could keep that comic going indefinitely and make a steady profit on it. The reason that they don't is because they think that the replacement comic will sell 11k, or maybe even more.
Anthologies are feasible, even for the Big Two (but I already explained why they choose to not try them).
>you dont see say Dark Horse making a Buffy Hellboy power pack. because that is stupid .
Dark Horse doesn't own Buffy and Dark Horse doesn't own Hellboy. But we have seen both Buffy and Hellboy inside the pages of Dark Horse Presents. Do you live under a rock?
>>81667754
>Marysue article that complained DC was "trying too hard" with DCYou's diversity push
>>81667774
>Island sells like shit
Sales were disappointing, but not a disaster.
>and is on indefinite hiatus.
Island #7 in May.
Get your facts straight.
>>81667754
The New 52 was a pr blow then Marvel struck gold with the mcu and a bunch of hip young and fresh books
>>81667829
Thats what I was saying above when I said they should stop caring about floppy sales
>>81663099
So pros and cons of this system? >>81667866
It did come off as tryhard.
>>81668709
>it really did come off as tryhard
How so? They didn't push it as "diversity" at all. They just had a diverse line up
>>81668675
If they "stop caring" then fans and creators will be happier, as comic storylines will be able to reach their natural conclusions instead of ending abruptly due to cancellations.
But all that happiness will fade once the sales figures come out and show a massive drop in sales due to fewer/no new #1 launches (which would have replaced the books which would have been canceled).
>>81668709
This sort of system won't work.
Miniseries traditionally have lower sales than ongoings. Therefore, even when Marvel and DC are publishing miniseries, they have to PRETEND that they're actually publishing ongoings. So even though Title X will be canceled by issue #12, they have to pretend that it could last until issue #24 or issue #48 or even higher, because otherwise the sales would be lower.
Honesty is bad for sales.
>>81667787
Well there are people who say the price drop isn't enough since they're double shipping half of their titles
And you know people are gonna complain when they stop double shipping and bring the price up
>>81668709
>It did come off as tryhard.
How so?
>>81668865
Since when is 12 issues a miniseries? Thats a solid run.
>>81668865
You cant say that not caring about sales would collapse because of #1s and then note that periodic renunbering also would lower sales.
Make up your mind.
Also chasing the pennies of floppy sales is bad strategy
>>81668954
This comment is making me dizzy. I need to go lie down.
>>81668828
Dont get me wrongit was based, but it LOOKED like they were jumping on the marvel bandwagon and batgirling. Perception is reality. An while dc you was based, it was PERCIEVES as your dad trying to act hip to get with the kids
>>81669003
I just explained it to you, it's all about "pretending".
Periodic renumberings to #1 will increase sales, but only if they pretend that THIS renumbering is the only renumbering which matters, and that the *next* renumbering won't happen for a long, long time.
A renumbering works if they pretend that it's meaningful, it doesn't work if they admit that it's meaningless.
>>81669027
When is the last time we have had a long running comic? When is the last time a long running comic has been good? 12-24 is an ideal size. A solid story, and narrative . There is a reason why serials tend to go to that size across media. Its not the 70s anymore.
>>81668954
Since when is 12 issues a solid run? That's 36 issues.
>>81669132
Who's "we"?
I don't know about you, but I believe in the existence of more than two publishers.
>>81669132
I'd argue Snyder's Batman, but /co/ would crucify me, so let's say Johns' GL.
>>81669124
That implies people give a shit about arbitray nonsense like big numbers.
Besdies in a periodic model the concept you speak of doesnt even matter because its next season is coming up, and if it didnt catch on, well just dont make a new season, no cancellations required.
>>81669161
If you speak of indies, very very few of them keep quality all the way into high numbers. Even Saga fell off.
>>81669161
True, but most others are irrelevant for this specific discussion, since the concept of runs doesn't really exist, except at the Big 2.
>>81669202
Johns GL was basically the seasonal model OP is talking about.
>>81669261
OP seems to want a creative team swap every season though. That can be necessary(would save us from Slott) but it could also cut some great shit short.
Also, to OP's suggestion, it's not bad, but the concept of institutionalized, yearly events is shit.
>>81669204
>That implies people give a shit about arbitray nonsense
Sales figures show that comic readers love arbitrary nonsense.
If you want to learn more, I suggest Comichron as a good resource for you.
>>81669236
>since the concept of runs doesn't really exist, except at the Big 2.
>>81669410
There isnt a correlation between huge numbers and sales.
There arent even any huge numbers anymore to begin with
>>81669566
I love Cerebus, but by "run" they meant "Writer A and Artist B doing issues #C through #D on Title E".
>>81669362
I am OP, I never said a swap every season, I said that seasons are where you would do a swap.
Did everone think I meant CANCEL EVERYTHING AT 12.
No sorry to not be clear I was talking about resetting the whole run/ cancel/event/relaunch system into something that serves everhones needs without being haphazard bs
>>81669566
That was all one writer the whole way through. The concept of a run is irrelevant: There's only one "Cerebus run".
>>81669591
I didn't say that there's a correlation between huge numbers and sales.
I said that there's a correlation between sales the POSSIBILITY of huge numbers.
That's why ongoings traditionally have higher sales than miniseries.
More people will jump on New Ongoing issue #1 than New Miniseries issue #1.
>>81669657
Ah, that makes more sense. I still don't like the idea of an event every New Year's, but I suppose at least fixing events to a set place in time would reduce the amount that event tie-ins fuck up an ongoing story.
>>81669775
Well not gregorian new years, comics new years would probabaly be the summer, like how new mtg sets come out every spring
>>81669230
Quality? Who cares about quality?
You and I do, but not the people making these decisions about how long comics should run for.
>>81669772
But they wouldnt be miniseries through.
Besides 12 issues isnt even a mini its a maxieseries, like coie.
Also were are you getting this infornation from, how would you even measure that
>>81669934
They care about..."sales" but in some nebulous idealized sense that equates good books to them or something.
I am probabaly the wrong person to ask, the big 2 buisness model just seems so,..insane to me I cant for the life of me figure out what the hell they are thinking. Like if they want sales why is there distribution model so pants on head retarded?
>>81669955
>But they wouldnt be miniseries through.
>Besides 12 issues isnt even a mini its a maxieseries, like coie.
I'm getting dizzy again.
>Also were are you getting this infornation from, how would you even measure that
I already told you, Comichron.
The next Comichron thread should be up in a few days, but for now you can look at >>81659606.
The information in there is less detailed than what Comichron has to offer, but it's still an insightful look into the exciting world of sales figures.
>>81670063
No I meant how are you getting that
>Belief the book will get get high issues numbers= more sales
How are you even measuring Belief?
>>81670374
You measure sales of miniseries, you measure sales of ongoings, and you measure sales of "ongoings" (which are advertised as ongoings but are actually just miniseries).
We see that a miniseries-advertised-as-an-ongoing will have higher sales than a miniseries-advertised-as-a-miniseries.
>>81670484
Isnt that falacious because "miniseroes advertised as an ongoing " are just what you are calling cancelled ongoings?
