Was Ozymandias right?
Yeah
>>81073551
>>81073566
Yes, ethically. But the point in the end may not be that he was ethically correct or that Rorschah was morally correct or that Doctor Manhattan was intellectually correct, because they don't get ALL the power. In the end it's a common person with the facts in hand who's going to make the decision about what happens next.
>>81073551
as much as anyone could reasonably expected to be, the whole point of what happened was to show that the people in charge don't necessarily have to be malicious to do horrible things and that frequently they're trying to render a chaotic unpredictable situation manageable as best as they're able to without anyone having enough real information to decide if what they're doing is right or wrong.
For us it seems obvious that the cold war would sort itself out but from the perspective of someone who was simply given the facts of the situation without context that would be a hard sell. "Who watches the watchmen?" is supposed to be a pitying statement. Nobody is there to tell them if what they're doing is right or wrong.
>>81073759
Wasn't Watchmen written DURING the Cold War though? Alan didn't know it would sort itself either.
>>81073551
Yes, move on.
>>81073551
No. The Soviet Union would've collapsed eventually. His plan escalated things to the brink of nuclear warfare, before cooling it all down again but 2 million people got murdered anyway.
>>81074022
WE know that, the writer didn't and the situation was different thanks to Dr. Manhattan.
The USSR apparently was allowed to go hogwild with the nukes because of Manhattan. Their dissolution might just create new problems.
>>81073551
Of course he was you fucking retard I oughta nuke your ass right now.
>>81073551
He's so fucking right that he needs glowing red eyes and a visor.
At best he created a temporary peace, eventually all that he built will crumble hence the name Ozymandias
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Wasn't The Black Freighter a hint that he did a bunch of horrible shit to prevent a disaster that wasn't even coming?
>>81074399
Yeah that's the whole point, but it's also there to show that he does feel terrible about what he did. All those lives he sacrificed do weigh on him, I feel like the movie failed to show that
>>81073551
No. And anyone who thinks that he is is wrong.
>>81073551
Yes, morality is retarded, it always has been and always will be. Morality changes cording to time, location and environment, empirical truths on the other hands are far more objectives.
So yeah he was right.
>>81073551
no, fuck you
>>81074306
This.
Nothing ever ends. All he did was prolong things, and that's ignoring Rorschach's journal being delivered to the news.
>>81074022
Yeah but look at us now almost 30 years later and we aren't in great shape, we have a fundamentalist religious group that is spreeing like cancer and the moment one of this jihadist/Islamist groups get their hands on a nuclear weapon... oh god, the west (and by that I mean the US) got to play chicken with the URSS because there was a certainty that the URSS was interested in their own fucking survival so the threat of certain mutual annihilation worked as a deterrent to avoid total Armageddon. I doubt that a jihadist regime would play chicken for long if they had a freaking nuke.
I think Moore just proved that you can easily get people to side with a horrible murderous super-villain as long as he's handsome and charismatic and keeps reassuring you he's right.
Then again, much of history is clear enough proof of that.
>>81074983
You do get that the world would have been destroyed without him, right? Did that escape your notice?
>>81075110
Of course. After all, that's what he told you, right?
>>81074983
And you sound like a hipster that only talks out of his ass with the benefit of hindsight.
Total world annihilation was a thing back then, maybe you were born after the fall of communism and will never understand that.
>>81075170
That's what every character in the comic said, and, get this, if everyone in the world has decided that its ending is inevitable, then it is.
>>81075110
Hell, that part's almost irrelevant. The threat was real, there was a chance the world could end, even just the chance would be enough for Superman to change into his cape.
These guys saw a danger and each decided to act as they each saw fit.
Oz just made the greatest moral compromise.
Unless you consider a lack of any direct action in response just as subject to moral scrutiny, like if Superman just stood by and watched a bomb's timer tick down as he griped about humanity's decadence, then Rorschach would be the most morally and ethically vile...
>>81075204
>>81075236
Many people in the real world also believed that, and were also wrong.
The characters' opinions are not infallible truths. When the impossibly arrogant super-villain in his Antarctic Fortress of Doom tells you that murdering millions of people with a fake alien squid was the only way to save the world, the idea that you're supposed to just totally accept his word without question is asinine.
>>81075679
>Many people in the real world also believed that, and were also wrong.
Again you show your fucking inability to stop talking with the benefit of hindsight on your side. With your retarded position then Dr Strangelove isn't the masterpiece everyone know it is.
Why didn't the US government just get a very patriotic young lad and Manhattan him? Then they'd have perfect missile defenses.
>>81075735
"I think Ozymandias was wrong" is not an indictment against Watchmen as a work of art you fucking retard.
>>81075826
We are discussing the notion that humanity was on the verge of total annihilation. That was not just the usual mindset but the only mindset before the fall of communism. I know that ask this to a fucking millennial to understand may bee too much but get over it.
The idea that the world was a few fuck up decisions to total destruction was something everyone had in their heads back then and something that you constantly try to diminish because "it never happen".
Under that mindset the logic behind ozymandias is not just perfectly fine but also on point. You may not agree with him on moral terms but you can't form a case where humanity deserves the benefit of doubt that we would never blow the shit out of ourselves out of existence.
>>81073551
No. The Black Freighter story parallels his misunderstanding of the situation and his failure.
>>81075975
>he still doesn't agree with me, I better call him a millennial again!
First of all, unless you're over 35 you're a millennial too, dipshit. And even if you are, being a 36-year-old man arguing about comic books doesn't lend you any sense of authority.
Second, nuclear war as a certainty was in no way the "only mindset." Shit, the fact that people still bothered to show up to work or have children proves that's not true. Policy wonks (or anybody with a working noggin) knew that the Soviets didn't want a nuclear war any more than we did.
Third, the fact that nuclear war did or didn't happen isn't as important as the idea that nuclear war NOT happening WAS a possibility--one that Ozymandias didn't, couldn't, or wouldn't accept.
>>81074022
The Soviet Union in Watchmen was a very different beast than the one in real life. You can't claim that.
>>81073551
Nothing ends. Nothing ever ends.
>>81075975
Are you literally forgetting that the U.S. and USSR were in peace talks that Ozy didn't know about?
>>81074797
Yes but aliens invade wouldn't change the minds of the Jihadists either.
Also complacency sets in if the threat isn't persistent. People eventually tire of vigilance and go back to their usual personal grudges and in fighting.
If Nuclear war was inevitable, why didn't Dr. Manhattan just take out the commies?
>>81073551
while the "fake the existence of dangerous aliens" plan did ultimately work, the world's smartest man should have been able to figure out how to make it convincing with way fewer deaths.
also New York City was a fucking boneheaded choice of targets because everybody was EXPECTING New York to disappear in a blinding flash at any moment; he was amazingly goddamn lucky he didn't just automatically trigger an OH SHIT FIRE ZE MISSILES right there. dumbest fuckin smartest guy ever.
>>81078371
Because Nuclear War was inevitable. He couldn't exactly take out the commies because taking out the commie would stop the Nuclear War and thus it wouldn't be inevitable, hence he was already going to not take out the commies. It was inevitable.
if nuclear war was inevitable why didn't people just start moving to Australia or South America to avoid the worst of it?
>>81078514
Because then people would bomb Australia and South America because everyone is there. That's why people stayed where they were, to avoid getting hit by the missiles which are targeting all the people who moved away to avoid getting targeted by missiles.
>>81078550
They wouldn't bomb Australia and South America if the people fleeing didn't bring bombs with them.
I don't think the USSR ever planned on nuking either of those places.
>>81074797
Jihadies believe we're living in an apocalypse and they're trying to usher it in
Literal doomsday cult
>>81073551
He killed millions for the sake of a band-aid fix that did nothing to solve the issues leading to tensions between east and west
the CORRECT thing to do would have been to conquer the world.
>>81078636
>wasn't forced to read On The Beach in middle school
>>81074022
That's not the point you idiot.
Since dr. Manhattan agreed that ozy was right, he could potentially prevent nuclear wars forever just by showing up every time things get ugly.
2 million people are nothing when weighted against the rest of planet
>>81073551
Do you mean, did he do the right thing?
Well, given that he was the most intelligent man in the world and apparently this was the best thing he could come up with - as the comic says, who are we to argue?
He sacrificed 0.2% of humanity to save 100%. And the people that died, would also have died had he not acted.
That is not a choice. Not for a sane man.
>>81074022
>His plan escalated things to the brink of nuclear warfare
No it didn't, Doctor Manhattan's existence did - and that was an X-factor nobody could have predicted.
>>81074125
So... not right?
>>81074306
>>81074793
It wasn't his job to save humankind for all eternity. What is the job of a superhero? To make sure the world does not get destroyed that day.
Unless he's going to make another false flag every time things get tense between humans again, no.
And Dr. Manhattan could have solved everything if he wasn't such a little bitch.
>>81074399
That is what he FEARED. But, again, smartest man in the world with access to all information.
>>81074475
So you would prefer the world would be destroyed in a nuclear war. Admit it: you're a squid alien, aren't you?
>>81074983
You just IGNORE the threat of nuclear war.
>>81075170
So... what? He did it for fun?
>>81075679
Doctor Manhattan agreed with him. Even Rorschach agreed with him, in the end. Unless you want to suggest Ozymandias had mind control powers, I think you're the one being an ass.
>>81075738
They tried. The process can't be repeated.
Yes he was right.
But it doesn't feel good for him to be right.
That was the point.
He made himself right, even if he was wrong.
>>81076108
His FEAR of failure.
>>81076611
Are you seriously saying he should have gambled with the fate of humanity?
>>81080461
Well, apparently it DID work, given the epilogue.
>>81080808
>Dr. Manhattan could have solved everything if he wasn't such a little bitch.
The fact that he did not means that he couldn't. The book states that even he could not stop an all-out missile attack by the SU.
>>81073551
His name is Ozymandias.
If that isn't a big honking clue that his engineered peace wasn't going to last then you need to read more non-comics literature.
>>81073551
Yes. The meticulous and detached planning of the world's most intelligent man has surely secured a lasting peace for the logical and emotionally sensible human race.
>>81080808
>080808
Noice
Right or wrong is irrelevant, it was a solution.
One that Oz chose high up upon his pedestal, far above humanity, law, and arguably connection. So whether it's right or wrong is endlessly debatable, but it was solution. And he chose it, and could choose it.
I always thought he was the greatest example used to deconstruct the super hero myth. Especially at the time...the end of the silver age.
>>81080877
>The fact that he did not means that he couldn't. The book states that even he could not stop an all-out missile attack by the SU.
He says that but it's obvious with his powers that he could.
He could either preemptively take them out or just make a bunch of copies of himself and exist at every major army base that would detect the incoming nuke.
Or he could come up with some fancy forcefield technology or something.
He could do a lot of things if he weren't such an emo crybaby bitch.
>>81073551
he is omniscient so yes, as always
>>81075975
>We are discussing the notion that humanity was on the verge of total annihilation. That was not just the usual mindset but the only mindset before the fall of communism.
Just like how today we're all going to be killed by terrorists unless the goverment is given carte blanche to endlessly spy on everyone.
Get over yourselves, generation X. You're not nearly as special as you like to think. Maybe you're unique in that you fell for propaganda harder than any generation before or since.
>>81081039
Why are you namedropping the appellation for those who weren't in power during the 80s like they controlled politics and the culture of MAD at the time?
>>81081069
The guy was shitposting about millennials. He's either a millennial in denial or he's gen X. I don't know which is worse. And nothing I said implied that he was an adult or had any power at the time.
>>81078636
You're retarded m8.
>>81080461
Conquering the world would have potentially cost even more lives, and then whatever force that had managed to accomplish that would have to deal with widespread and long-lasting rebellion.
I thought the whole point of the Tales of the Black Freighter comic was to show that Ozymandias' "solution" was completely unnecessary?
>>81081090
Now I'm just thinking about the possibility of a Gen-X'er posting on 4chan.
I mean, from my experience Y...the very tail end of the millenials, has been as old as this website gets generally. Thinking anything older posting on here is just weird to me.
I watched the flick last week. In it Nixon had already decided to nuke Soviet Union, which was prevented by "Dr Manhattan" bombing the earth.
Was the nuclear war this obvious in the comic, or was it exaggerated for the flick? I don't remember anymore.
>>81081726
In the comic Nixon doesn't explicitly state he was going to nuke Russia. It doesn't seem like he wouldn't either though.
>>81073551
I've come to terms that Ozy is only as right as how far you with to look into the future after his plan.
>>81073938
Due to the alternate events I think the threat of nuclear war was even more pronounced, perhaps even inevitable, than it was IRL.
He was right and that why the MC's hated him.
>>81074793
threadly reminder that rorsharch's journal was NOT delivered to "the news," but to a widely discredited far-right news rag that nobody in the book reads besides Rorsharch. On the offchance his journal is printed, it will be in the back rag of a publication nobody takes seriously, and at the time it was written, Rorsharch had no concept of the squid plan, and was referring to the "mask killer" conspiracy his stupid ass was chasing the whole time.
>>81073551
No.
>>81074797
>URSS
Illiterate.
>>81074797
>a fundamentalist religious group that is spreeing like cancer
Yeah Tea Party is pretty bad.
>>81083577
Probably true.
But it'll be out there, regardless. One day, maybe, long in the future, it'll spread.
I always thought that was kind of the implication. That it may be within their lifetime, or it may be in generations, but one day the truth will come out.
Of course you can argue it's irrelevant, especially if its not within their lifetimes; but I guess that goes into one's perspective on legacy and the big picture.
>>81075204
Reagan got people to follow him wholly on the strength of his charisma, not on his ideas.
>>81084322
Hell, that same phenomenon is arguably happening right now.
>>81080976
>the end of the silver age.
Silver Age ended in the early 70s -- arguably with the death of Gwen Stacy.
>>81084460
It's a timely story.
Yes. Dr Manhattan existing and America winning Vietnam all but guaranteed the Soviet Union ultimately launching all their shit. And while Doc never got to show the full extent of his power and may have been able to stop literally every nuke from detonating Ozy knew it wasn't a risk worth taking.
>>81084551
>Anything done for the survival of mankind is justifiable. If humanity fails then it fails forever.
t. God Emperor of Mankind
>>81084509
That's true, but he's probably talking more about the bronze age and then on. Although the Bronze age brought back more darker and mature themes, there were still lingering elements of the silverage within it that comics like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are often said to have ended since they were not-so-subtle full deconstructions of those elements, beginning the Dark Age/Modern Age of comics.
yes, but eventually the cracks will appear. Then someone will remember that article in the right wing crack pot tabloid. which will lead them to Rorschach's journal and it all unravels from there.
The giant space squid plot would unravel faster than fear of Dr. Manhattan.
>>81083577
>and was referring to the "mask killer" conspiracy his stupid ass was chasing the whole time.
But he was right about there being a mask killer the whole time.
> On the offchance his journal is printed, it will be in the back rag of a publication nobody takes seriously
True but consider this.
https://youtu.be/dEQgnl7OynU
I think if a crazy right-wing publication is right for once, (a few) people will take notice.
>>81084983
It only needs to last until the Soviet Union collapses
>>81085024
How do you know the truth eventually spreading and getting out won't start a whole other conflict itself later? Especially if entire alliances and political landscapes were formed from what turns out to have been a murderous lie?
There's no way to ever tell for sure.
>>81085079
Ozy will sacrifice himself out of guilt. He will accept the responsibility. There may be newfound conflict but as long as the political climate has calmed it won't be nuclear conflict
>>81073551
Yes and no. At the time his actions were right but at the end they show that a new president is coming in and roshach's journal is found. Time is changing and so are people. In time Ozy's scheme would have little effect and it would be humanity that actually saves itself from nuclear annihilation.
Hence why his name was Ozymandias, all his works were going to disappear in time.
>>81085182
>and it would be humanity that actually saves itself from nuclear annihilation.
nah
Humanity is constantly dooming itself by its own nature. Anything he does, any large sacrifice of people "for a purpose" is ultimately pointless because it won't last.
They CAN work and provide a lapse of relatively peaceful time. But nothing lasts forever, no matter what. So whoever pushed the button is still doomed to be responsible for the death of many, many people.
Also to be noted: Ozymandias plan didn't end at the squid. He had a world-wide media plan to influence how people thought for decades to come, hoping to better mankind.
For the same reason the journal could or could not be found and it could or could not have any impact, considering so many factors. Like the assistant not actually thinking the journal was worth it. Or that nobody would believe the Frontiersman to begin with anyway. Or even Veidt doing a counter-campaign or directly shutting down the newspaper all quiet-like.
>>81085122
I was thinking more broad, like way in the future.
