I don't get this episode /co/mrades. It seems like Homer is the antagonist and you're supposed to root for Grimes, but if that's true then the ending just kinda leaves a bad taste in your mouth
>>80916532
I really don't buy into the whole "experiment to see what its like to have homer interact with a normal person", when Grimes has an absurdly bleak backstory, lives inbetween two bowling alleys, and reacts to every single thing Homer does, as if he has severe autism.
>>80916813
Theres also the fact that Homer's stupidity is greatly exaggerated in the episode (like when he almost drinks sulfuric acid), which in itself would make the experiment null and void.
>>80916532
It makes you think about how surreal Homer's life had gotten if you consider the continuity. It's not really a feel-good episode.
Homer is very very irritating throughout this episode. If he behaved like this in Season 10+ everyone would be screaming "JERKASS HOMER". And it has an utterly tedious and pointless subplot.
>>80916933
And now this is just Homer's regular personality.
Damn it's sad to look at what happened to this show.
Its not "haha" funny its "reality is an insane nightmare" 'funny'
I can't really argue with the negative reviews I've seen about this episode, but I still like it. A very dark episode, and very hilarious. It starts to lose some steam in Act II, and the part about Bart's factory didn't amount to much, but Act III had me laughing from start to finish.
I think the subplot is the weakest part of this episode. The story works as an "alternative" Simpsons episode, one that shows what the Simpsons universe looks like to an outsider (Grimes). But then they keep cutting to this B story that could fit into any normal episode. And as a normal episode, this story doesn't work. So I wish they'd cut that part out and maybe filled the story out with an Itchy & Scratchy cartoon (with Grimes wondering why everyone seems to find this so hilariously funny when it obviously has no comic timing at all).
There's alot to like about this episode, including some subtle but effective animations. But I wasn't too crazy about Frank Grimes himself, and IMO his introduction into the Simpsons universe felt too forced. Be that as it may, the laughs were still there...overall
>>80916964
>>80916933
Homer isn't a jerkass but he is annoying. I also found the ending very dark.
Homer wasn't annoying. He was genuinely trying to make friends with Grimes, but Grimes thought it unfair that Homer had things so much better and got by work so easily and luckily, and therefore became enemies with him.
You can't say to someone he wasn't annoying. IMO he was and he annoyed me.
>>80917103
>Frank Grimes himself, and IMO his introduction into the Simpsons universe felt too forced
Isn't that kind of the point, though? He completely classes with the rest of Springfield because he's an ordinary, jaded person who's been thrust into this sitcom world and he's having a hard time coping with a world that doesn't make sense, a town full of naive fools and an incompetent, irresponsible co-worker who has miraculous luck and somehow hasn't been either fired for is idiocy or killed by his own negligence.
>>80917290
Yeah, the moments when he, say, poured water all over a control panel to get the alarm to stop was slightly annoying, but he's done this at work hundreds of times, what's one more?
>>80916532
I think this video just about sums it up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aohu40PefI8
That's Homer's character, you see it a lot, Homer is a jerk by nature, and it annoys me when people say stupid things like this just because they don't like the episode.
awesome episode, particularly how everyone loves homer except frank.
imo it was frank who was more annoying
He lived above a bowling alley, and below one, too.
>>80916532
Grimes was an antisocial jerk who thinks the world owes him something. Yes, his life was hard but jealousy doesn't help.
Ayn Rand fanboys would hate that episode and that's why it's great.
>>80916532
You seem to get it just fine OP.
I never really liked this episode much at all. This could be the most divisive episode that the show has ever had, and it all depends on whether or not you like the dark humor or not. I personally couldn't stand the dark humor in this episode. It just wasn't funny to me watching Grimes lowered into his grave while everyone is laughing. Couldn't have Grimes just ended up in a mental institution or something? It's not so much Homer that bothers me in this episode (although he has a few annoying moments, like when he's in Grimes's office making fart noises) but instead it's how everyone else seems to act. I didn't like how Lenny & Carl choose to simply ignore Grimes, and I'm not sure what they were trying for with Grimes being yelled at by Burns behind the closed doors, but it just seemed too sinister. At the center of the episode is Grimes himself, who really isn't a character that you can root for either, since he's just too obsessed with trying to convince everyone that Homer's an idiot. In the end you really have no one to root for. The episode's not a total loss however, I liked the subplot with Bart and the factory, but still I am one of the few who does not like this episode. There are many who love it, but it's just not for me.
I'm not sure why Josh Weinstein said on the DVD commentary that "the Internet really hates this episode" when it's given high marks on most websites I've seen.
>>80917046
The subplot is weak, and that it does ultimately detract from the episode. Considering how many episodes in Season 8 have no subplot at all, I find it very surprising they would put one, and such an insipid one at that, in such a daring episode. I just get annoyed when it cuts away from such a great story to such a bore of a B story.
I think Burns is a bit iffy too but fantastic episode all the same.
Anyway, classic episode. One of my favorite episodes ever. I think that everything about it is great. Simple, yet dynamic premise, fantastic voice acting (especially from Hank Azaria) and some great bits of dialogue, as well as animation.
The subplot was simple, pointless and lighthearted, but that was the whole point of it. The A-plot was so dark that Bill and Josh felt that a B-plot would balance things out. And I think it accomplished that much. I enjoy the subplot, actually.
>>80917689
Back when it aired, it seemingly was the most polarizing episodes on alt.tv.simpsons. Personally, I think this episode was the 'gateway' episode that marked an increase in Homer's stupidity that continued until Jean brought him back down (somewhat) in S13.
>>80916933
Homer was in no way shape or form a jerkass in the episode. He was just a lot stupider than usual.
Homer was always annoying, but Grimes sounds like an entitled douche.
Maybe I'm weird, but Homer's Enemy was the first episode that left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt like I was watching Homer on one constant 'stupid-streak' because he was too stupid to realize he was being stupid. And, of course, the 'dark' funeral ending...'ugh'. Worst of all, Frank Grimes's character was never shown being more than some angry jerk. They could have devoted more of the subplot time showing him happy and having somewhat of a 'life' outside the plant, or trying to meet women, or something.
I've always thought that he really wasn't all that stupid in the episode, just a little naive. I mean, yeah, he was stupid in one or two scenes (what idiot would think that the children's competition was for adults (although it served a purpose) but by and large he was characterised as a naive man simply trying to make a friend, and he ultimately failed. So more than simply being too stupid to realise he was stupid, I feel that he was more naive to realise how naive he was, and that's certainly a realistic and fairly entertaining character trait for Homer to possess.
The conflict was strangely human, or so I thought. Haven't we all known someone like Frank Grimes at some point in our life? Anyone?
>>80917689
Its generally more a polarising episode, than anything. You either love it, or you hate it.
"I'd appreciate it if you stayed out of my office, Simpson."
"Ha ha, I'f I'd get a nickel from every time I heard that!"
Frank's rage was misdirected. You know who's the real guy to blame.
>>80918011
The smarmy, diligent classmate we've never heard from again?
This is one of my favorite episodes ever. I love it when Frank Grimes goes insane at the end.
>>80917235
isn't that the reason why Homer doesn't like Ned. Ned's life seem easier and Ned got whatever he wanted. Ned's life went so well that nothing bother him. Homer resented that Ned never had to do things that he didn't like to be successful. Grimes hated that a buffoon like Homer didn't have to work as hard like him to be successful.
I have never understood people complain that Homer was too men or stupid in this episode. First, Homer actually goes out of his way to be nice to Frank. What angers Frank is that Homer is so endlessly and easily happy, while Frank is very uptight and can never let loose, so he resents Homer's ability to not let things bother him. Homer also is not anymore stupid than normal, I think that many take Homer's happy-go-lucky viewpoint and think he is just being stupid, but he is just blinded by his optimistic view of life. That is what makes Homer a great character.
Frank Grimes reminded me of /r9k/ for some reason.
>>80916933
Didn't those who came up with calling Homer this actually describe this episode as precursor and root of the problem?
After watching this again not too long ago this is satirically one of the most complicated episodes the series ever did.
It's a three-way satire. It's...
*A satire of the show's own exaggeration and crazy world. It's an exaggeration of our world, not literally it bit for bit. That's what it's pointing out by taking an anal realist like Grimes and sticking him in there.
*Within the universe of the show, its a satire of people who go through life with no sense of humor whatsoever. The nit-picker, the holier than thou type, someone who just can't take the more chaotic element of life at all. Yes you can nitpick and say that Homer's too dumb to reasonably live but in their world and the context of it I think it still stands. And that kinda nitpicking leads to...
*the last satire, us. They've said in the commentaries that many hated this at first because it was too dark, Homer was too mean, that so and so could never happen etc etc. Just listen to all this, is it really healthy or even intelligent to seriously look into it that much? There's a difference between fun speculation, the "lol how's that possible" joking around, and more complex thoughts and insights...and just plain belly-aching over things that don't obviously matter. Yes, in real life, a guy like Homer would never work in a nuclear power plant. But that's not the point. Complaining about something anal like that is in fact missing the point completely. He's a caricature, not a photograph.
>>80916532
I loved this episode and laughed when Grimey died,
It's a bit slow at times, but classic quotes and scenes are everywhere, and you can't ignore that. I wouldn't call this episode a gateway into Homer's jerkass period because his behavior was meant to be exaggerated to annoy Grimes, and he went back to normal shortly after this. The subplot is great too. Who wouldn't love that Peanuts-esque moment of childlike fantasy when you see Milhouse in a coat, drinking coffee and pondering the course of his life? It's great.
>>80918241
I wonder if back then some people hated the episode for the mockery of people like Frank Grimes.
>>80918396
Because they could see themselves in Grimes and thought the show was shitting on this type of personality?
It was a mediocre episode. I could sympathize with Grimes's dislike of Homer and all, but the ending was rather odd and the sheer stupidity of the workers at the power plant was absurd, even for the show's usual standards. Since when was Burns so completely idiotic, and since when does Smithers not become annoyed with Homer's insolence? Either way, I think the episode was decent but overrated.
>>80918434
What? I thought Burns was in perfect character here. I don't remember him doing anything stupid.
>>80918415
Well, that's just amusing.
>>80918512
1.) Wanting the dog as a vice president.
2.) Not even remembering that request.
3.) Awarding Homer the award.
I think there's more but those are the ones off the top of my head.
>>80918555
Well, I think he's a bit senile here, but that had been done before.
Also it's one of the first episodes in which Burns starts to look a little less menacing and seem to have a little more contact with his workers, which I think it was the start of the problems with the character.
But that's more talking retrospectively, it doesn't really matter that much in the episode.
>>80918555
>1.) Wanting the dog as a vice president.
>2.) Not even remembering that request.
Hasn't Mr. Burns known to demand ludicrous things or make ludicrous assumptions in previous episodes? Ordering Smithers to book long dead baseball players, believing Homer to be a brilliant union spokesperson, and honestly is considering an inanimate carbon rod to be a competent worker any more absurd than considering a dog as vice president of the plant?
And if Homer can forget Homer's name, he can forget the request, especially given that there was justification for his forgetfulness, in that he was being fickle, deciding on Grimes one day then immediately forgetting that idea in preference for what he sees the next.
>3.) Awarding Homer the award.
Burns's skewed sense of judgment I believe has made previous appearances as well. Awarding Homer's bad design in preference to Martin's brilliant design because Martin's doesn't have 'heart' is no different from choosing Homer to bat in place of a major league player for little reason other than his right handed batter philosophy. Mr. Burns' tendency to make irrational decisions based on his own warped ideologies isn't a new thing at all.
>>80918719
I suppose it's not a new thing, but he just seemed especially ludicrous in this one. In the older episodes, he would usually have some type of explication or at least some redeeming exhibitions of intelligence, but here, he was nothing more than ridiculous.
The whole "what if a normal person was in springfield" thing doesn't work here because
1. Grimes isn't a average person
2. Homer's stupidity was exaggerated for the plot of the episode
>>80918753
I see where you're coming from, but I rather like how particularly absurd he is here. The reason I like it so much is because each instance reflects just how powerful and holier than thou he is. Ordering Smithers to constantly hunt down the most ludicrous of employee choices at his very whim comes across to me as very dominant and controlling, and that he's so eager to change his mind exemplifies the extent to which anything he says goes without any opposition and he's in such a high position that he can afford to constantly make the most ludicrous of demands. I also think his criticisms toward Martin and his praise of Homer is absolutely brilliant. The joke is that he obviously misses out on the more efficient model, and that is a bit senile, but the fact that he's so harsh in his criticisms and so certain of his expectations just feels so much like Burns to me, that even in his nonsensical complaints he makes them sound so valid.
There is also the fact that
a) Notice that Burns ultimately favors the design which more or less the same as his own power plant, while angrily rejecting the one design which bettered it, thus keeping in line with the egotistical nature of the character.
b) the whole episode was a commentary on the obliviousness of Springfield to bizarre incidents. Burns's behavior, just like Lenny and Carl's, was reinforcing this theme : wanting to hire a heroic dog he just seen on television just is a more exaggerated version of the logic behind not firing Homer Simpson yet and hiring him in the first place.
>>80918856
Arrgh, I was going to add that, but decided against it due to my inability to phrase it well. Glad that someone got it across though.
>>80918137
The difference is that Homer simply wished his life was as 'perfect' as Flanders', thus the hate and jealousy. Despite this, he still finds a way to tolerate/coexist with Flanders on some level, and even gets along with him at times. He still ACCEPTS the fact that Flanders' life is better than his.
Frank Grimes was different. He was not just jealous of what he perceived to be Homer's undeserved success. He didn't look at Homer and simply think "I wish I could get away with being lazy and be rewarded for it".
He literally could not accept the fact that Homer's life was better than his. It pissed him off and filled him with hate and anger, to the point where he felt justified in insulting Homer directly to his face and trying to humiliate him, even though Homer was trying to be nice to him. He was a person who would sooner snap and lose his mind, than come to terms with the fact that life simply isn't fair, and that someone as stupid and lazy as Homer could live easier and better than him.
Frank Grimes is an example of what someone is like when they can't accept the reality that life isn't fair.
>>80919246
>to the point where he felt justified in insulting Homer directly to his face and trying to humiliate him, even though Homer was trying to be nice to him.
Homer treated Flanders this way
>>80919246
This is all null and void when you consider the fact that homer LITERALLY does not deserve any of the things he has (his own house, two car, relatively hot wife). What he did deserve is to get shown up for being a bumbling retard.
>>80919371
M8 you missed the whole point, he doesn't deserve it, that's true but again, life is not fair.
>>80919371
>America is a meritocracy
Top lel
>>80919313
>>80919371
exactly Homer treats Ned the same way Frank treated him. Homer treats Frank the way Ned treats Homer. Was Frank Grimes the foil of Homer Simpson? Was that the point of this episode?
>>80919447
86% of millionaires in the US are first generation.
>>80919313
Not saying he didn't.
The difference is, Homer on a certain level accepted the fact that Flanders' life was better. Yes, he would complain about it and be snippy at Flanders just like Grimes did to him....but he still accepted the reality.
Grimes didn't.
In the space of one episode, after meeting Homer he made it his life's mission to show everybody how stupid and lazy he was, how he didn't deserve his job and life....and how Homer was inferior to him. When he realized he failed in doing so, instead of just accepting it....he cracked and electrocuted himself to death.
>>80919557
So Homer was a better realist than the supposedly realist Grimes.
Funny that.
>>80919508
another thing is it possible for a character to have more than one foil since Ned Flanders highlighted all of Homer's bad characteristics. Homer is small, petty, jealous and jerk when he interacts with Ned. Meanwhile, Franks Grimes highlights the good in Homer. Homer is a kind, gentle and a sweet buffoon. I feel like my mind just exploded for not realizing what I was watching as a child while it happen.
>>80919673
>>80919557
>>80919508
Damn, it blows you away how cerebral this show once was.
>>80919705
I'm also floored, another thig when Frank dies Homer becomes the center of attention in Frank's funeral. because the story wasn't never about Frank its about Homer. my god this show is brilliant
>>80919525
90% or so of the richest aren't.
>>80919525
source: anon's ass
>>80916532
Grimes is an outsider and he eventually breaks down under the absurd nature of Springfield. And Homer is the avatar of all this. He's basically a Lovecraftian monster in yellow skin.
>>80919909
It seems true from a simple googling, it's just that a million isn't much, you don't even qualify as "rich".
>>80919966
It seems true in the sense that no-one has been able to disprove or debunk it, but I can't find any actual study showing it to be true, either. I'd be very interested in seeing the methodology, whether or not property value counts as part of their net worth, etc.
And, as you say, $1,000,000 isn't that much in this day and age. It'd be nice to have, but it's not like it sets you up for life.
>Small loan of 1 million dollars
The only people who don't like this excellent episode are beta cucks who have had shitty lives like Grimes and are butthurt about people who have had it easy like Homer
get rekt scrubs
>>80916933
Homer being very stupid =/= Jerkass Homer.
Jerkass Homer is what you get in Trash of the Titans.
>>80920070
>It'd be nice to have, but it's not like it sets you up for life.
it'd set me up for the next thirty years, which is pretty close
>>80916532
Maybe it was just a bunch of stuff that happened.
>>80916532
I lost all sympathy for Grimes when he didn't give Homer a chance to explain after being invited for dinner.
>>80919869
Wasn't Steve Jobs the adopted son of blue collar parents? Or the guy who founded Wendy's (Dave Thomas).
Shit, even our dear president was the useless slacker son of a single mom with a chocolate fetish.
>>80916532
You're not supposed to root for any of them, just laugh at/be moved by their predicaments. Homer has to accept that he can't make everyone like him, and he did. Grimey had to accept that sometimes people suffer for no reason while others have everything handed to them, and he couldn't.
Y'know, if this episode were made today, Grimes would have to be black, because white men are never oppressed.
>>80916532
I love this episode, I find the darkness rather hysterical.
>>80919814
>>80919705
That was before this happened.
>>80920416
And this.
And that.
Also this.
>>80920427
she got a lesbian teacher
>>80920484
i didn't see the rachel maddow episode good to see maddow doing well
This just keeps on getting worse, doesn't it?
>>80917493
The guy had good intentions though, he saved Homer's life when he about to drink the conical flask full of acid, and Burn's punishes him and he doesn't get a chance to explain, similar to how he didn't give Homer a chance to explain when Homer invited him over to his house.
The day we thought it was a great idea to have a child molester voice a character on the show.
>>80920606
>masturbates in front of her sister for 10 years
>dresses her like a slut
>puts pebbles in her vagina
tumblr internet defense force plz go
>>80920606
She was 17 and molesting a child.
>>80920606
Isn't there a pretty big age gap between LD and her sister? I thought I remember that she was 12 (not 3 or something) when she was putting rocks in her infant sister's pussy.
Also her sister is now a lesbian and seems to be in total denial of what happened.
>first people to come out and attack Lena were Sarah Palin and her whore of a teen mom daughter
That's real credible people to listen to, no? A teen slut and a failed Repukelican presidential candidate.
>>80920584
And they were gonna do a whole episode arc with this, but someone decided that Lena was creepy af and pulled the plug on it so she only ends up doing one episode that they rewrote so it's just a dream sequence.
>>80920347
I gained sympathy for Grimes when Burns didn't give him a chance to explain after he saved Homer from drinking acid.
>>80916532
Why do you have to root for Homer?
It's dark humour. Shit's funny.
I think people tend to, well, over think this episode. When I first saw it, it was a pretty funny meta commentary on the series. But if you think about it, yes, the characters do behave in an unusual way. Homer is dumber than he usually was at this point, true, but also in plenty of episodes he's shown to be hated by others and downtrodden. So this works best as just a commentary on how absurd the show is if you look at the overall continuity where Homer is constantly a celebrity and the focus of the world's attention contrasted with the episodic Homer who is supposed to be a downtrodden everyman.
>>80916532
>you're supposed to root for Grimes,
How do you get that? Grimes is an asshole who goes out of his way to attack Homer just because Homer is retardedly lucky.
Grimes should've just left well enough alone and minded his fucking business.
CHANGE THE CHANNEL MARGE
>>80920642
I just looked it up and the book says she was 7. Kids do dumb things, you don't really understand sex when you're that age.
>>80922471
>>80920662
she just extremely sick
>>80921049
THAT'S OUR HOMER!
How's Homer the antagonist? All he wants is to be Grimes' friend. Invites him over to his house, acts chummy at work, all that stuff. Grimes is a jealous wreck of a man, and while he certainly didn't deserve to die, I still didn't root for him.
But at least Homer tried to be nice to him.
Imagine if Frank Grimes had to deal with someone like Gladstone Gander.
>>80916532
Connor?
>>80916813
The reason for his bleak backstory is that it's an exaggeration to what was once the American Ideal. The wonder story of doing great things and making a name for yourself despite your upbringings in squalor. While Homer got everything for nothing.
I read this out of a Simpsons book, but I forget the title. I'll let you know next time I go to the library.
>>80917046
>>80917734
>The subplot, where Bart buys a factory, was added so that there would be some lighter scenes to split up the main plot. According to Weinstein, "We wanted to have a Bart or Lisa kids story to contrast the heaviness and reality of Frank Grimes."
Which is a kinda good reason, but still.
>>80916532
Thats the point
>How do you get that? Grimes is an asshole
No he isnt, hes like a human from the real world being put into the cartoon
>>80916532
Homer is irritating at first but he never does anything particularly malicious towards Grimes and for the last half is nothing but friendly to the guy. Grimes starts off sympathetic but he goes too far, basically going full autismo
>>80924700
>Invites him over to his house
He tricked him into coming over by faking an emergency.
>>80924700
>acts chummy at work
In-between stealing, chewing on, and sticking his office supplies into his head orifices.
>>80929637
Also instead of saying shit when Burns asks who the fuck destroyed the wall, he just points at Grimes without mentioning that it happened because his stupid ass was about to drink a beaker of acid and Grimes saved him by throwing it away. Like Homer's usually quiet or some shit.
I don't hate the episode but neither character comes out looking all that great.
Wait a minute is OP reposting discussion from DeadHomerSociety or something?
>>80920364
>You're not supposed to root for any of them, just laugh at/be moved by their predicaments.
Interesting point
> Homer has to accept that he can't make everyone like him, and he did. Grimey had to accept that sometimes people suffer for no reason while others have everything handed to them, and he couldn't.
and that's downright insightful, good post...
>Y'know, if this episode were made today, Grimes would have to be black, because white men are never oppressed.
Jesus h. christ, turn it down a notch. Not saying you're wrong but if you want this kind of a point to not be dismissed easily let it arise organically. Not everything has to be dragged to this and other sjw bs.
>>80920584
Who?
