Would Avengers: Age of Ultron have been better off without them?
I'm an Avengers traditionalist so I was grateful to Joss Whedon for fighting to get them in. But I also think they contributed to the movie feeling over-stuffed. There just wasn't time to tell their story and most people around the world just wanted to see the characters from the first movie.
Plus because of the Fox connection Marvel refuses to use them in merchandising, cartoons, etc. so it almost feels like they were never in the MCU.
>>80874280
>Would Avengers: Age of Ultron have been better off without them?
No they had or were connected too the best scenes of the movie
If Whedon wasn`t a hack they could have been SO MUCH BETTER, they make next to no sense as characters and killing off pietro was such a fucking mistake
Age of Ultron would've been better without Widow and Hawkeye or Thor
I'm not even saying that out of some snide Widow's plot with Hulk was asinine, the only good Thor part was the hammer lifting contest, and all Hawkeye did was give a pep talk to Scarlet Witch which could've just as easily been handled by Cap
>>80874306
I don't know, I thought the best part of the movie was the party scene which gave movie fans what they wanted - all the characters together again.
>>80874437
Thor didn`t even register as part of the team dynamic to be honest.
The part about Clint`s farm was bs, fucked up the pace and only served to expand that shit Hulk and Natasha thing they tried to pull off.
Both Avengers movies would have been so much better if Whedon had focused on a single character as audience proxy.
In Avengers, it made sense to use Capt since The First Avenger set up the beginning, however, Loki was Thor`s brother and probably setting up a more compelling plot with him as main character and befriending Capt.
Age of Ultron should have focused on Bruce or Tony, or even the Maximoff twins, since they were new characters, make an orgins story for the both of them AND use the Avengers as supporting cast. Would have been better.
>>80874446
My favorite scene was the HYDRA base raid.
It felt like a Saturday morning cartoon. I had the dumbest grin on my face.
I wish Marvel wasn't so secretive so we could learn more about what went on behind the scenes of this movie. It's not terrible, just obviously confused, even though it's got what should be a very simple plot (Avengers vs. murderbot).
Whedon has mentioned that some people advised him against using Wanda and Pietro (marketing couldn't have been thrilled by the idea of shared-rights characters). He explained it as wanting someone for Ultron to talk to, but I think he was just desperate not to have Vision without Scarlet Witch.
>>80874638
Apparently, two major things went wrong.
Joss kept wanting to use characters Marvel was saving for another movie/Marvel didn't have the rights to/was already being used in some other capacity.
Also, Ultron wasn't supposed to quip at all, but apparently, test audiences didn't react well to a serious Ultron.
>>80874437
>Without Hawkeye
He was critical. All the character arcs in the film revolve around them lacking what he has.
>>80874704
>Also, Ultron wasn't supposed to quip at all, but apparently, test audiences didn't react well to a serious Ultron.
Not exactly. The Ultron quips were not added until later, but still before test audiences.
>>80874704
>Also, Ultron wasn't supposed to quip at all, but apparently, test audiences didn't react well to a serious Ultron.
As much as /co/ complains about Quiptron, it was a smart choice. Ultron being a reflection of his creator, with both sides denying the similarity, is his most important character trait.
>>80874566
Iron Man was supposed to be this for Avengers. But I think Cap makes more sense as an audience surrogate, since it makes sense within the story for things to have to be explained to him.
>>80874788
I did like the exchange
>Ultron: Clearly, you never made an omelette.
>Tony: He beat me by one second.
The lines themselves are cringe inducing, but it really illustrates how Ultron was made from Tony's mind. I wish that had been explored more.
>>80874788
The problem wasn't the quips but that he was not threatening and... well, everyone's been over that before. The point is that to be the climax of this phase of the MCU, the movie needed a really popular villain, and he just wasn't that. Vision was cool, Ultron wasn't.
The bro scenes between Hawkeye and Quicksilver were worth it.
"Nobody would know... nobody!"
I think fighting to keep them in, then killing off Pietro was a bad idea. Now what, they're going to have Wanda without her better half and brother, or going to have him brought back from the dead - a comic trope we all hate being borrowed for the movies. It' so annoying that movies are already starting to acquire all the flaws comics have, plus add some of their own.
>>80874934
To be fair when J.W. was reading the comics in the '70s, Scarlet Witch was in almost every Avengers issue and Quicksilver rarely was. They kind of split up around 1970 and he probably thinks of her as more paired with Vision.
>>80874973
That's the problem, though, you have Quicksilver in the movie just because he's necessary to get his sister into it, and his sister in the movie mostly so she can lock eyes with Vision.
And now Whedon's gone and who knows if the new team will even follow through on the romance he tried so hard to set up. Was it worth it?
>>80874280
You're talking crazy anon.
Without Wanda and Pietro it's just another Iron Man pic, or another Cap pic. You need to have the B-Listers. They're what make it the Avengers!
I'm not saying they can carry the whole picture on their own, but they make the world richer just for being there.
>>80875076
It's still closer than we have in the comics currently so... yeah kinda.
>>80874704
How do test audiences even work? What random schmucks do they even get? Because every time I hear about it, its nothing good
>>80874280
Fuck no, one of the few redeeming points of AoU is introducing SW and Vision.
>>80874280
AoU's problem wasn't that it was overstuffed, it was that no one really seemed to care.
Everyone was still snarky and throwing snappy comments everywhere, even Ultron. No one seemed to really take anything seriously.
Except these two. They felt out of place because their motivations were surprisingly "real" compared to the magic and heightened reality presented everywhere else.
I know super speed can be incredibly broken but I was pretty disappointed with how unimaginative they were with it. I hope DCEU Flash pulls out all the stops
>>80875469
Because Whedon cared about them.
The problem is that when he doesn't care about a character he just makes it quip.
>>80875365
You have to sign up in some website, you sign the NDA so you don't go spoiling the movie all over the place, and they'll call you to see movies.
The problem is that the ones who do this are the masses, and those are just happy with seeing movies sooner then they would normally do.
Hell, fucking Fantastic Flop had positive early screenings.
>>80875365
I don't know, the test audiences didn't like the Thor subplot (which is why it got cut down) and you can't blame them for that. They was right.
>>80874280
Nah, I was fine with the movie being "overstuffed" specifically because we got to have some nice character moments, notably Quickass'.
Superhero movies will rarely have supertight meaningful narratives, so I'm fine with fanservice "spoiling" those.
>>80874280
Wanda in this is literally Jean Grey/Rachel
A redhead with telekinesis that makes people see illusions.
If you arent going to make her an explicitly magical character, then dont use her.
>>80875939
Wanda's not an explicitly magic character, she's a mutant whose powers are sometimes written as magical because she has "Witch" in her name.
They should have decided what her powers would be though. It looks like Civil War 2 is going to drop the mental stuff, which was just not part of her power set in any other version.
>>80875939
>redhead
You blind m8.
>>80874280
https://youtu.be/KmQsQsNjhmk
>>80875480
I have a bad feeling the Flash movie will have less gofast that the tv show
I've got to know, does Whedon know about his rep? I don't mean the feminist crap, I mean his tendency to kill at least one character in every one of his works.
It feels like he expects it to be a shock when he kills off a main character, but at this point, it's expected. To give an example, in Firefly, one of the main characters, the QT mechanic girl gets shot halfway through the episode and spends the rest of it in medical. Considering who the writer is, it was a bigger twist that she LIVED than if she died.
Hell, in the lead-up to the movie almost every AoU thread would at some point go "So who is he going to kill in this one?" and it was narrowed down to three characters, SpeedSlav being one of them.
>>80876558
Remember, most people who go to see a movie don't know who the director is.
So the people who know about Whedon's rep are a tiny minority of the huge audience that saw this movie. To a lot of people, Quicksilver's death really was a surprise. That's not to say it was effective, just "Joss always kills someone" isn't known to that many people.
>>80874897
He wasn't any less threatening than Loki, and people didn't complain about him.
>>80875939
There is literally no difference between calling something magic and calling it whatever AoU did.
>>80876789
A villain doesn't have to be threatening if he's funny or cool or sexy. Ultron just didn't seem to make much impact though.
>>80876645
And most people aren't as genre-savvy as the minority that comments online. So anyone who talks about movies online could probably guess that all the "Hawkeye is going to die" hints were too obvious to be true. But the average moviegoer doesn't analyze things that closely, and just thought Hawkeye was going to die.
>>80876914
I found Ultron many times more funny, charismatic and interesting than Loki.
>>80874715
A farm?
>>80877110
A farmily and a normal life.
>>80876558I am a leaf on the wind
>>80877139
Everything in the movie was supposed to revolve around parents and children. Widow and Banner can't have them, Cap missed his chance, Stark and Ultron create robotic children who disappoint them, Ultron becomes a surrogate father to two angsty orphans.
I'm not sure how Thor fits into this plan but then his plot was not Whedon's idea.
>>80877170
He had to make up for not killing anyone in the show, so he had to kill TWO people in the movie.
>>80877044
That's fine, but he wasn't as popular. Popular doesn't = good. But just analyzing why the movie didn't make as much money as the first, people went back to see Loki and there weren't as many who want to see Ultron.
>>80877201
Cap can still have babies tho.
It's not like being in the ice made him sterile.
Thor has daddy issues and brother issues.
>>80874437
Aside from form Thor
yeah I agree Hawkeye and Widow should have just been extra characters
>>80875211
pupils were a mistake
>>80876558
>>80876645
>>80876948
Well he did a not-so-subtle bait-and-switch with Hawkeye. Giving the guy loved ones so you'd feel bad if he dies, lots of "hints" at various points, Quicksilver's death scene itself is pretty much 80% Haweye's death scene except HAHA! >didn't see that comink?
So all in all, I'd say he knows people know, he's pretty tongue in cheek about it even.
Also they announced there would be a death before the movie was out. Because muh stakes.
Not to get too /lgbt/ here, but it's kind of crazy just how attractive every single actor in the avengers is.
I really like it. I hope the trend continues. I dont want less objectification of women in movies, I want more objectification of everybody. These movies are already so shlocky, I dont see why they shouldn't maximize the eyecandy.
So no, op, the movie wouldn't have been as enjoyable without those two.
>>80877139
I thought that was good. For something that 90% of cape movies try to have (hero is just a normal guy), Avengers (and lots of solo movies) have always portrayed them all as larger than life and living for their job.
So it was nice to see something trying to bring them back to Earth.
>>80875972
>mutant
stop this retcon shit
>>80877474
"It is a supreme asset for actors and actresses to be beautiful; it gives them greater range and greater possibilities for expressiveness. The handsomer they are, the more roles they can play; Olivier can be anything, but who would want to see Ralph Richardson, great as he is, play Antony? Actors and actresses who are beautiful start with an enormous advantage, because we love to look at them." - Pauline Kael
>>80877244
Cap can't be a daddy because the normal life he knew has been gone for decades. Fighting evil is all he's comfortable with now. Ultron suggests this, and so does Maria Hill in a deleted scene.
>>80877742
And this is why Aaron Taylor-Johnson will always get cast in stuff until his looks start to go.
>>80874437
Scarlet Witch makes Hawkeye interesting. His being an ordinary family man becomes vital in helping her to cope with her power; he connects her with her roots.
Also, Wanda's arc builds towards Thanos in a way that has potentially greater impact than any other character.
>>80878742
>Implying they won't kill her off before Infinity War because Marvel hates all characters Fox can use
>>80874566
I think the twins added alot to the film. The biggest issue I had was there was no scene of them together during the farm scene. A scene of Wanda and Pietro talking about their parents would have added to what Whedon was trying to do with the farm scene.
>>80878891
>Marvel
>killing a woman
You'll see Iron Man die before her.
>>80878971
Whedon said there were a couple of scenes like those, but they cut them.
I'm still baffled at why this movie didn't get a directors cut which could fix a couple of things.
>>80879015
Letting the director release his own cut would imply that it's his film, not Feige's.
Plus I think Whedon feels he had his shot. The final cut was seen by millions of people worldwide. Even if there was a director's cut hardly anyone would see it.
>>80874638
You really do need Scarlet Witch for Doctor Strange to be connected to the wider MCU.
I think Whedon sort of wanted Wanda for Vision, but Feige wanted Wanda for Doctor Strange (because without her he has no peer to bounce off of in Infinity War).
Of course do note that Whedon put a character heavily connected to both Wanda and Stephen in the first Avengers movie (The Other).
>>80875365
A scene with Loki (part of Thor's SW-induced dream) was cut out because test audiences thought Loki was controlling Ultron.
You think they could use quicksilver for life gem plot device or nah?
>>80879300
Why do only retards sign up for early screenings?
>>80879334
It's a shop, the original pic is just two pages from some book.
>>80879334
There is no life gem.
>>80879387
soul then?
>>80875410
Scarlet Witch and Vision will be the emotional heart of Infinity War. Otherwise its just going to be a bland fantasy adventure with purple space man collecting gems.
If they do it right, the moment when Thanos rips out Vision's stone and Wanda faces the ultimate test of her courage and will, you'll be able to hear a pin drop in the cinema.
>>80877110
Yes
>>80879492
It would be cool to see him brought back with the Time gem...
Needed moar of Wanda's sweet sweater meat.
>>80879699
This tbqh phams.
>>80879732
Delete this
>>80875939
You are forgetting The Other's suspicious role in Wanda's inception.
But Wanda's powers behave alot like Chaos Magic, with a strongly implied connection to emotion and willpower.
The shift away from mind powers in CW may indeed have been mapped out by Whedon; the mind gem fading away as Wanda's true powers.
>>80879552
I hope Feige likes her or at least thinks they need as many chicks as they can get.
You can bet the comics and marketing people hate having a character that Fox could choose to use (that's why she's not in the cartoons etc) and the Russos aren't old enough to be fans of the Vision/Wanda romance.
Basically whether Wanda stays around depends on the whim of the Feige and GIRL POWER (only she's not a GIRL POWER character)
>>80879732
This girl has made some really weird films.
>>80879903
She's had an odd career. Martha Marcy May Marlene seemed to set her up for stardom on the lines of Saiorise Ronan (who was also considered for Wanda) but then she got stuck in one shitty indie film after another.
So her agents started sending her up for blockbusters and she got Godzilla, where no one even knew she was there, and Avengers 2 (she also was considered for Star Wars, directors like her, I guess).
I honestly have no idea where her career goes or if she'll ever find that movie that can make her a star like BROOKLYN just did with Ronan.
>>80874897
I don't think it wasn't that he wasn't threatening, as much as his army of minions weren't.
It's like in the fights, he would just wait for the Avengers or whatever to do what they needed to do instead of going all out. I can't remember a specific point with Ultron, but a bit that really stuck out to me was when Tony fought Hulk and spent a good 10 or more seconds helping them out of the elevator, all the while Hulk is...?
>>80879985
Funny because Saoirse Ronan was the original choice for Scarlet Witch.
I don't know if they chose Olsen because she has a face that kind of looks like Ronan's, because Aaron Taylor Johnson vouched for her, or what.
Still, she should get a new agent considering she did the casting for Sue in Fantastic Flop.
>>80877474
Honestly that post wasnt /lgbt/ at all besides the picture and you saying that.
>>80880041
Has there ever been a case where 'villain with a fodder army' was actually threatening? They do it to give the entire team action spotlight but it never feels that satisfying. It's much more interesting to have a team vs team fight or a situation like Thanos where everyone is fighting one insanely strong guy.
>>80880624
Ultron in the comics used to be One Insanely Strong Guy, until they realized "Hey he's a robot, why not make him an Army of One Insanely Strong Guys"
The movie made his secondary drones much less intimidating by not making them adamantium or vibranium or any other exotic anti-hero metal.
>>80880327
Lizzie sure dodged a bullet there.
>>80880725
Yup.
Still, it would have been nice to see her in Episode 7, the one they chose has a baby face when she's looking serious, and she looks like a goddamn demon when she smiles.
>>80880327
That was the look Whedon was going for.
Olsen looks beautiful and ethereal which is the perfect fit for Wanda
>>80880776
She'd have made a more interesting Rey IMHO.
>>80880776
>>80881090
>wanting Elizabeth to get BLACKED
>>80881147
/pol/ pls leave
>>80874280
I almost want to say it would be better if they kept the twins and didn't do Ultron, but then we couldn't have Vision.
>>80882292
Whedon was a mistake.
Although without him, we probably wouldn't have Vision or Scarlet Witch.
>>80879865
The character has so much potential it hurts to think of being denied seeing it.
The mix of the fantastical and the very real makes her character more grounded than Strange.
The fact that she struggles with her power and is a vulnerable person is what makes her relatable and far removed from being a Mary Sue, despite being hugely powerful.
Also that she's not a tacticool soldier or quipper or typical tough girl means she brings a different energy to the team.
>>80882874
Well, we'll have to wait for CW
>>80874280
YES
>>80884464
Kill yourself my pham.
>>80874280
It's a great set-up for Wanda going nuts with her reality warping.
Just imagine how everyone is going to react when Pietro just shows up again one day and Wanda acts like nothing ever happened.
>>80884552
I don't think they'll give her the reality-warping thing.
It's way too overpowered.
nah, the twins were alright
i don't know why everyone is bitching about AoU, it wasn't that bad, it was ok.. it strenghten Tonys and Steves personalities and how they stand towards each other, set up CW, set up the new Thor movie and had to set up IW
the only thing what felt rushed and forced was the Hawkeye and Hulk/Widosw storylines
>>80875076
There's been a build up of ScarletVision in Civil War.
Logically, Vision has to die in Infinity War 1 to make Thanks/Magus really threatening, which will be doubly so if ScarletVision share some kind of deep bond.
AoU was fine. You're just butthurt Whedon went all SJW.
>>80884613
Either everyone on 4chan is extremely triggered by any sort of joke or everyone really exaggerates the quipping.
>>80884613
>>80884740
This Twitter post is the exact point that turned /co/ against AoU.
Not saying the movie doesn't have problems, but this was where /co/ decided that they wanted to dislike the movie. It's not uncommon at all for people to settle on a conclusion first and then process everything from that point on to fit that conclusion.
>>80884845
>>80884740
But SJWs are the ones who got butthurt the most with AoU.
>>80884871
nah. both sides got mad about the same. just at different things.
>>80874280
Like you don't want to see The Vision and Scarlet Witch get it on in later movies.
>>80884552
>It's a great set-up for Wanda going nuts with her reality warping.
Reality warping is a generally not a good power, narratively speaking. It's usually used to cause some bullshit, or retcon some other bullshit, or as a reset tool for events. It's incredibly powerful in such a way that it can add a ton of plot holes as soon as its introduced, and makes the other team members almost irrelevant.
>>80885078
Olsen said their relationship would be something like some kind of deep bond, way more subtle than in the comics.
>>80884566
Hopefully Chaos Magic (alot of evidence of powers ebbing and flowing with her emotions in AoU) but not Reality Warping as that's too OTT. I'd rather see her character grow and learn about her powers/herself.
>>80874280
Never care about the story or "overstuff" in capeshit, all I care is fan service and superheroes moment.
>>80885190
This.
