Many people have pointed out that superhero comics strongly appeal to fascist sensibilities. And even if I think it's true that there are fascist elements in superhero fiction, I think they aren't nearly strong enough.
In my opinion superhero comics would be a lot better if they embraced those themes. I don't mean that they should try to promote a fascist political agenda, but that they should stop trying to hide them behind "everyman" characterization and "down-to-earth" writing. Superheroes are at their best when they do grandiose feats and perform inspiring speeches and throw badass one-liners. Not when they're trying to balance their high-school romance or day job with crimefighting, or when they're quipping at each other and making sexual innuendos.
Sure, the fact that most superheroes have an ordinary human side creates a lot of interesting dynamics and makes them more relatable. But the downside of this ambivalent approach is that many many superhero comics end up as soap operas with fantastical elements. Nothing's really impressive anymore because galactic threats are treated as less important than the character's love affairs and daily hassles.
At the end of the day I don't want to relate to the characters and their issues, I want to witness a spectacular display of power and idealized moral drama. Something superhuman.
The same thing can be said of Pro Wrestling by the way.
>>78403646
That's part of why Moore's Miracleman was so effective.
>>78403658
I agree, but at the same time Moore seemed very critical of this kind of fiction.
But at least he didn't try to dilute it, he showed us super-heroes in their most inspiring and magnificent state.
>>78403646
Depends on the character. The reason Spider-Man is so popular is because of the "Trying to balance a superhero life with a regular life, and both negatively impacting each other" angle. He'd be a much weaker character without it.
>>78403646
Yes comics must and should follow only 1 way of writing to only appeal to you and alan moore instead of following a wide range of possibilities
Comics will forever be nothing but episodic villain of the week just to please you instead of following whatever the writer see's fit
>>78403646
Go back to painting, Adolf.
>>78403646
Purely physical conflict can only maintain a reader's interest for so long. Having relatable characters gets people more invested in the story, and lets the themes have greater applicability outside the work itself.
>>78403646
Part of the problem, I think, is that the whole "put on a suit and fight crime yourself" angle has become the default plot, and 99% of capeshit comes up with ways to justify this set-up instead of using it because it flows naturally.
I think the problem with superheroes is less about fascism and more about their adherence to a status quo
Chalk it up to their roots as pulp books. But none of the big name characters change the world in a meaningful way. Or if they try to, some kind of ludicrous villain will always pop up and present the perfect amount of opposition to keep anything from changing.
Which is fine, I guess. The genre is about weirdos in colorful outfits beating each other up, not about bona-fide ubermensches who lead humanity into a better tomorrow. Still, it is kind of hard to accept the more serious, big-scale books seriously when you have characters like Tony Stark or Reed Richards or Superman who could transform the worlds they live on radically, but don't, because of reasons.
>>78403790
>The genre is about weirdos in colorful outfits beating each other up, not about bona-fide ubermensches who lead humanity into a better tomorrow.
This doesn't need to be the case, though.
>>78403732
>>78403697
>>78403691
Wow here we go getting defensive right off the bat.
Anyway I think it has to do with the publishing format of most superhero comics more than with anything else.
Some characters (like Spidey and the X-men to a degree) are obviously based on that "relatable" formula, but I think they're a minority, and the real problem is that with a long-running episodic weekly format, your spectacular power fantasy is inevitably going to end up as a soap opera with fantastical elements, not because people like it, but because you're eventually gonna run out of goals and stakes for your characters, while the publishers will have to keep making money off that IP.
>>78403790
>>78403808
That's just one of the symptoms of that constant compromise between the ordinary and the extraordinary. If writers took a stand in favor of either option, than the status quo would stop being a problem.
>>78403646
Yeah op i like to sound smart too
>>78403790
I actually do agree with this. It's the #1 reason I feel that each superhero should inhabit their own "world".
>>78403950
That's not the issue here.
I'm trying to pinpoint the reason why so many comics suck so we can stop complaining about superficial problems like "the status quo" or "unrealistic writing" that stem from it.
>>78403981
>I feel that each superhero should inhabit their own "world".
I disagree, it helps makes things more exciting that everything exists together it just shouldnt be played so badly and certain writers arent trying to constantly change already established canon
The thing I always wondered about all those villains we see who are like "only the strong should survive," what happens if you accidentally break a leg in battle or something?
Sometimes by "strong" it seems like they just mean "people willing to stand up for themselves" and not total pussies who won't even verbally defend themselves.
>>78404005
I think it can be disagreed that comics should be just fntasy adventure when like all other mediums can be interpreted in a number of ways
Problem is writers and how they establish things
>>78403981
It's the direct reason why they should, but it's not the primary reason.
If those comics weren't so concerned with making the story relatable and down-to-earth, then those plot holes and unlikely situations wouldn't be a real problem.
>>78403895
Probably the ideal solution is (if a character is popular enough to support it) having multiple books with distinct angles on a character's life. So you'd have the high adventure high concept Superman book, and then the Superman book where he hangs out with Jimmy and they talk about whether they're more attracted to Barda or Wonder Woman.
>>78403646
I disagree with cape comics being fascist in nature, I find this to be a knee-jerk reaction of the "anti-imperialist" crowd. All the contrary, fascism requires a state, meanwhile, capes are more often than not non-state agents, they are civilians with the power to bring evil to justice.
>>78404087
>If those comics weren't so concerned with making the story relatable and down-to-earth
This is honestly not an issue at all
Go to bed Allen
>>78404069
the writers are ultimately subservient to the companies they work for, the business model they work with and the publishing format they've implemented
superheroes don't express their full potential in that context no matter how good the writers are
>>78403895
>If writers took a stand
Then they would be fired.
Remember, we are talking about editor-controlled comics, not creator-owned comics.
>>78404126
>the writers are ultimately subservient to the companies they work for
So they have to let a character live or change a costume, i sont eeally think theyre big deals
>>78404098
Yes, but in the form of miniseries instead of long-running storylines.
Paradoxically, long-running storylines, where past events are taken into account, are the very reason why these past events feel ultimately weightless.
>>78404142
that's my point
>>78404149
NOTHING is a big deal anymore, even though everything is supposed to be a big deal
>>78404166
I honestly think books should really just be published on a per-storyline basis
Not to say there's no room for single issue stuff, but the notion of "WE HAVE TO PUT OUT A BOOK EVERY MONTH, NO MATTER WHAT" has led to a lot of tepid garbage for every single popular characters throughout the ages
>>78404109
fascism isn't just a political model, it's an aesthetic and a set of values this model is supposed to promote
>>78404098
>>78404166
>>78404202
Sounds like a great way for the publisher to lower their profits.
>>78404280
>comic books
>profitable
>by themselves
>without selling movie/merch/tv rights
I'd wager that raising the visibility of an IP with a few extremely well done, critically lauded, talked about stories is more helpful promotion than just spewing out a never-ending stream of hokum
>>78403658
>>78403682
>>78404342
>comic books
>profitable
>by themselves
They are.
Just look at all the creator-owned comics that aren't adapted or merchandized but which somehow continue to publish new issues.
>I'd wager that raising the visibility of an IP with a few extremely well done, critically lauded, talked about stories is more helpful promotion than just spewing out a never-ending stream of hokum
Then why are Marvel and DC the biggest, despite so many other publishers operating at a higher level of quality?
Do you like ducks? Do you think that duck comics are critically-lauded and extremely well done? Fantagraphics publishes classic Scrooge McDuck comics, among other things, and they only have 0.06% marketshare.
I don't think fascist is the right word for what you're talking about, OP. Especially if you're not wanting to talk about politics. Facism usually leads to things like injustice.
Western superheroes have been progressive leftist propaganda since the 1980's at least and there's no sign of a shift any time soon so long as they keep pandering to tumblr.
>>78404465
In real life. The traditional superhero is a fascist fantasy - Some powerful, righteous individual as the ultimate authority, who should not have restrictions placed upon them from outside because they know what's best and always do the right thing.
>>78404223
Even so. It is incompatible with the rampant individuality of cape comics.
>>78403815
Spectacular power fantasies are a very limited and shallow type of story, and saying superheroes should stick only to that is a bad idea.
>>78404867
maybe, but they're inherently better and deeper than high-school or family drama
>>78404970
That's subjective and also wrong.
>>78404970
>Smash-em-up power fantasies
>Deeper than anything
Fart jokes are deeper.
>>78404813
But that's never been the case. Batman can't work as well without Gordons consent. Even marvel there has always been some kind of collusion between law enforcement, government and heroes, one stepping in when one takes shit to far. When that balance breaks we get Civil war and similar stories.
>>78405071
>When that balance breaks we get Civil war and similar stories.
Civil War was the perfect example of this. They had to have the pro-reg side become comically evil to justify the status quo of letting people take the law into their own hands without any oversight.
I think super hero comics should be about something unrealistic (superpowers) in a realistic world.
As in, how would the real world deal with the appearance of super powered humans?
I think only X-Men and the Luthor vs Superman storyline approach that.
The issue with X-Men is that mutants should be a privileged minority, not a persecuted minority.
Although sometimes they take that apprach well, like the hellfire club. I remember that ongoing about a young Emma Frost in which she used her powers to cheat in casinos and at college.
>>78405129
Mutants were having it pretty good between Morrison's run and all up to M-Day.
