Post characters that are written better as guests than in their own series.
Spock.
>>77501252
Nah, Jason is written as generic badass on Batman books. So far only Pak has shown a good grasp on his character but is on par with Lobdell's depiction
Spider-Man.
Always and forever.
>>77501419
No, Tzitzimine. Lobdell's Jason is shit. The panel in the OP shows more character depth than in Lobdell's entire run.
>>77501478
He's also far more sympathetic in Tomasi's B&R when Damian kicked his ass, than he has been in RHATO, where he just rehashes his backstory over and over again.
>>77501478
How that it shows character depth? Jason was never close enough to Dick to warrant that reaction. That is just King and Seeley pandering to the fanbase as is their custom.
>>77501478
Jason is always shit regardless of the writer
Nubo is almost tolerable in cameos, he's horrible in his own book
>>77501779
That's because Jason's backstory was such shit under Lobdell, that Seeley and King had to map out a proper history that actually made sense for the character. And it worked. Based on those few lines of dialogue alone, a reader can map out a general idea of their relationship. Lobdell failed to establish any actual personality for him other than "DUR HUR HUR MUH NAME IS JASON TODD AKA RED HOOD AKA FORMER ROBBIN". Seeley and King essentially did Lobdell's job for him, and did better with a few sentences of dialogue than Scott did in his entire run.
>>77501478
No, his guest appearance in Grayson is just as shit as his Lobdell stuff. His and Tim's pages were easily the worst out of all batfamily's.
Jason is just a terrible character in general. They have no idea what to do with him or how to characterize him.
>>77501946
Nah, competent writers have made some decent use out of him. It's just that when you have the likes of Judd Winick, Scott Lobdell, and James Tynion doing most of the work on a character, they come off as crap.
Morrison's Jason was such a refreshing and wild take on the character. It's too bad that later writers completely missed the point, and reverted Jason back into a "sexy bad boy" author-insert.
>>77501419
>Pak
I'm just realizing that I don't think anyone storytimed it. No rush though since I've got it on my pull anyway.
>>77502469
I think people can't get over Morrison giving him bad skin.
>>77502483
>I think people can't get over Morrison giving him bad skin.
"B-b-b-but muh Jason isn't sexy anymore!"
>>77502412
If you honestly believe that, then you obviously haven't paying attention to neither RHATO nor RH/A because Jason is far from being that.
That relationship is wrong anyways given their previous interactions on RHATO, B&R and Batman Inc.
>>77502469
Morrison's Jason wasn't even a character, it was just a prop to move the plot forward
>>77502455
He and Tim were fine in Grayson. They were supporting characters in that issue that weren't very important to the story, but weren't just wallflowers either.
>>77502469
>>77502483
>>77502502
Judd Winick handled the character well. Nobody can say otherwise.
The problem with Morrison's take on the character was that he just turned him into a dark mirror of Dick. It wasn't smart other than the meta jokes with the poll. That'd be akin to to taking Deathstroke and turning him into just another Prometheus, Wrath, Hush or any other Dark Batman.
>>77502528
RHatO and RH/A are badly written books and you should feel bad for liking it.
>>77502528
>There are people that like RHtO
>There are people that like anything Lobdell has written in the last decade
>There are people that think RHtO is somehow good enough to override pre-52 depictions of Jason and Dick's relationship
>>77502581
>There are people that like anything Lobdell has written in the last decade
Doomed was ok
>>77502592
It was extremely generic and mediocre.
>>77502592
Took the words right out of my mouth, anon.
>>77502528
Have you even read RHATO, Tzitzimine? Because if you honestly think that, it's clear you haven't.
RHATO did such an awful job of trying to make sense of Jason's New 52 backstory, that other writers had to figure out why Jason would be hanging out with the Batfamily in the first place. Seeley, King, and Tomasi all found ways to integrate him in a way that still acknowledges Jason's former differences with the Batfamily.
>>77502600
Yeah that's what ok means. It was inoffensive.
>>77502610
>Jason's New 52 backstory
Convoluted mess. One more secret origin and it'll get to Hawksnarl.
>>77502637
>>77502610
Why exactly does DC still let Lobdell write anything? To my knowledge all the books he's been on lately have been total sales flops, so he shouldn't have Slott-tier immunity despite pumping out an equal amount of garbage.
Do they REALLY still feel that bad about his son?
>>77502550
Winick laid out the groundwork for Jason in Under the Red Hood, but everything he wrote with Jason after that was self-insert fanfiction.
When Morrison was writing Batman and Robin, no one had any idea what to do with Jason. He was featured in shit like Countdown to Final Crisis and Nightwing's One Year Later story. Morrison found a purpose for him, and also deconstructed the cliched "Punisher who believes he's doing the right thing" trope.
And then New 52 came along, and Jason went back to being the star of DC's worst stories.
Please tell me that Damian will never join Jason and Tim in their loser ex-robins corner /co/. Tell me how he'll be the second biggest Robin after Dick and how he'll be loved enough to be allowed to grow as much as Dick has. Please whisper sweet lies to me.
>>77502658
Bob Harras and nepotism.
>>77502658
Fuck me if I know. He's probably BFF with someone in charge at DC.
>>77502684
If he has good writer, he'll be good. If he get shit writer, he'll be shit.
>>77502684
As a Dick fan, you don't want what Dick's having. He's had a pretty fucking bumpy history, and seems to have this bizarre knack for attracting writers who are so busy masturbating to him they forget he has a character and purpose beyond being the fuel for their erotic fantasies.
>>77502684
He has his own solo that's doing very well, he's is pretty young, and he's already died.
If he ends up in any important media adaptations he'll be Robin for a little while longer. The only way they can make him not Robin anymore is if he goes the way of Dick instead of just dying or becoming irrelevant.
>>77502658
Lobdell's friends with Bob Harras, and he's basically guaranteed a job because DC needs longterm fill-in writers who pump out scripts for brands (like Red Hood) that sell just enough to avoid cancellation, but not worth putting actual talent on. Lobdell was put on Teen Titans when Doomed got cancelled. And he was given RHATO back when Geoff Johns was gearing up to kick Lobdell off Superman.
>>77502708
You're confusing Dick with Jason. Dick has good writers.
>>77502663
>and also deconstructed the cliched "Punisher who believes he's doing the right thing" trope.
When Winick wrote the character he wanted the character to be a crime-boss who tried to control crime. Make the gotham gang have more self-control. He wasn "Punisher who belives he's doing the right thing". That's like saying that Genevieve Valentine's Catwoman was "Female Punisher who believes she's doing the right thing".
In fact Morrison just turned Jason into Dick's dark mirror, which is probably more cliche in comic books.
>>77502708
>seems to have this bizarre knack for attracting writers who are so busy masturbating to him they forget he has a character and purpose beyond being the fuel for their erotic fantasies.
So he's DC's Kitty Pryde or something close to it?
Because he either gets those writers or writers who don't really give that much of a fuck about him and would rather be doing something else.
>>77502684
Damian's book is popular right now, and he's THE Robin. He's fine for the time being, as long as he gets decent writers or artists, and not Lobdell-tier talent.
>>77502771
>he's THE Robin
I'm sure the same has been said for Tim, I don't want Damian to end up as shitty as Tim.
>>77502748
So you haven't read Morrison's run then. Or any of the fanfiction Winick wrote later on
>>77502798
Well, unless Snyder finds a way to officially replace him with Duke...
>>77502744
Dick has only had good writers in the past like 8 years.
>>77502822
Snyder's probably gonna be gone by this time next year and Duke will be gone after that and WAR gets cancelled for shit sales.
Damian is fine.
>>77502804
A vigilante that tries to make his identity into a brand/intellectual property is a fine idea, but Jason is not the one to be it. The kid was anti-establishment from day one, there's no conceivable way to turn him into a fucking Super-Instagram junkie. Morrison had zero respect for Jason Todd, and only used him as a convenient vehicle for that idea.
>>77502804
I've read both. Jason being the literal middle red-headed child and being Dick's dark mirror isn't smart. The metajoke with the Jason's stunts and internet poll was kinda neat, but nothing major.
Winick also didn't wrote any fanfic, he just took a piss on Morrison's take in a shitty arc.
>>77502850
>Tomasi
>Morrison
>Snyder
>Seeley and King
Too bad everybody forgets Tomasi's short Nightwing run to jerk off to Dixon's mediocrity.
I wonder if he'll keep it going and get a good writer after SeeKing are done.
>>77502822
>>77502860
You guys are really afraid of Duke and Harper, huh?
>>77502850
Say what you will about Dixon and Tomasi's Nightwing runs, but they were entertaining reads, even if generally irrelevant in the long run. That's far better than anything Jason's had.
>>77502860
Snyder's staying past #50 at least, after Capullo takes a break.
>>77502869
Morrison only did that because of the poll done back in the day to decide Jason's fate. It was just another meta take that Morrison always does. But yes, he had no respect for the character.
>people talk about Morrison Jason
>only mention the B&R arc while ignoring that he played a role in Inc too
smdh
>>77501419
Tomasi handled Jason pretty well as well.
>>77502899
Not me, I'm just as baffled by people who still think Duke will takeover as actual Robin when Damian's popularity is just getting bigger. He's started to get featured in things that Tim gets left out of in favor of Damian.
>>77502923
Inc was a disappointment to me. B&R was too much hype.
>>77502946
But Tomasi didn't acknowledge Jason's magical kung-fu wizard ninja canon that's established in RHATO!
>>77502923
That's cause most plebs here haven't read it and are speaking secondhand. He was great in Inc and thank god for based Morrison saving him from obscurity and making him a good guy again.
>>77502923
Jason was pretty boring there too.
>>77502964
The only thing stopping Snyder of making Duke Robin is Snyder himself. Don't delude yourself thinking that Damian being popular has any weight into these matters. Snyder only need to have Bruce taking Duke as his new Robin to make it official. That's it, Damian popularity be damned.
>>77502964
It's mainly that Snyder doesn't know how to write Damian, so he leaves him out of the Batman title, which is you know, DC's flagship title. Damian, since Convergence, also hasn't shown up in any other books outside of Grayson, while Duke and the We Are Robin movement has been everywhere.
>>77503022
Don't delude yourself into thinking he isn't the most popular Robin since Dick.
>>77502978
You say like that's bad thing.
>>77503023
He's got his own solo and B&R. Anyone reading reading the main Batbook is just subjecting themselves to Slott levels of torture.
>>77502986
At least Inc using Jason as part of the Batfamily made sense. Bruce made Jason earn his redemption, and even then, Damian called Jason out on his murderous past.
With RHATO, Lobdell went from talking about Jason's murderous past to sweeping it all under the rug.
>>77503042
>Don't delude yourself into thinking he isn't the most popular Robin since Dick.
I'm sure the same was said about Tim since Jason was the only non elseworld Robin before him and everyone voted for him to die.
>>77502610
What's so off about Jason's backstory?
>He was picked up by Bruce after trying to steal medicines from Leslie
>Had an intensive training period of six months before start operating as Robin.
>Had clashes with Nightwing since he was determinated to prove himself as the better Robin of the two
>Was benched due his brutality and then lured by the Joker to Etiopia where he was killed.
>Resurrected by unknow means and then put into the Lazarus Pit by Talia.
>Took to the All-Caste to receive training for a year
>Spend around four moths or so getting funds from the chinese Mafia
>Under The Red Hood happens but unlike the original story here he's beaten by Nightwing
>He leaves Gotham and starts operating on his own all over the work with some ocassional support from Tim
>Meets Kori
>RHATO starts.
>>77503086
All-Caste and magical swords aren't needed, desu senpai.
>>77503042
The same was said about Tim in the past.
>>77503086
>All-Caste
Such a shitty idea.
>>77503107
The All-Caste was just a convenient shortcut to explain Jason's skills in the compressed timeline of the N52. The swords were introduced just as a mean to take down the Untitled, Tynion was the idiot who pushed them as multi puropose tools.
Both Pfeifer and Lobdell ditched them as soon as they could.
The thing saving Damian is that he has a more direct connection to Bruce. Even if he wasn't his son there's still the fact that he's related to Ra's. More than popularity that is what would keep him relevant in the long run.
>>77503086
The fact that he's still a murderous asshole that didn't change his ways, but was excused somehow by the Batfamily.
>>77503086
>Under The Red Hood happens but unlike the original story here he's beaten by Nightwing
Jason's one story that actually matters and Lobdell had to change it completely
>>77503107
But if he isn't trained by super special magic ninjas or whatever then how could he be SO GOOD and special?
>>77503180
Meanwhile Damian is going on a trip to redeem himself and fix things he did before
>>77503166
I don't know. His training could be shown in flashback on one page with Bruce and another page with Talia.
>>77503180
Pre-DOTF:
"Remember all those times I tried to kill Nightwing and he tried to have me locked away in a cell?"
"Hey Batgirl, nice legs!"
"Why are you being nice to me, Tim? I was terrible to you."
Post-DOTF:
"Yessir, Bruce. What do you want me to do now?"
>>77503180
He's no worse than the current direction of Green Arrow and regardless. he IS changing his ways
>>77503166
>The All-Caste was just a convenient shortcut to explain Jason's skills in the compressed timeline of the N52. The swords were introduced just as a mean to take down the Untitled, Tynion was the idiot who pushed them as multi puropose tools.
Lobdell established them as the best assassin in the world and the only thing stopping that Untitled thing from conquering the world. They're oh so awesome and powerful that they can access other dimensions and shit and knows ancient magic, which were taught to Jason, because he was the best student they had over a thousand years despite being with them for just a lonesome year.
They're an awful, awful idea and that's all on Lobdell. Tynion only tried to make them work because the editor forced him.
>>77503242
The current Green Arrow is pretty bad, too.
>>77503242
Does he still kill people? Do he intent on keep killing people? Then he didn't change and doesn't want to. He's still a murderous asshole.
>>77503268
Lobdell: "I want to have Jason train under the League of Assassins, and make him their greatest student of all time!"
Editor: "That sound stupid"
Lobdell: "What if I make up a completely new assassin organization that's identical?"
Editor: "Sure, it's not like anyone will care about that."
>>77503227
You mean like it was done on the secret Origins story?
>>77503268
>Lobdell established them as the best assassin in the world and the only thing stopping that Untitled thing from conquering the world.
Wrong. Lobdell set Essence as the one destined to beat the Untitled and Ducra herself even told Jason to leave them alone.
>They're oh so awesome and powerful that they can access other dimensions and shit and knows ancient magic, which were taught to Jason
Jason didn't learnt any of that and the dimensions stuff was part of of the Hundred Acres of All not different to any kind of mystical bullshit Nanda Parbat is able to do
>because he was the best student they had over a thousand years despite being with them for just a lonesome year.
Wrong again. Jason was the only human to survive the rituals needed to be part of the caste. At no point Lobdell wrote he was the best student, that was Tynion
>>77503334
That's the same thing that happened during his Superman run. He wanted to have that H'Ell be the NuBizarro. Can you believe it? An handsome Bizarro with long hair like a rockstar?
>>77503404
>You mean like it was done on the secret Origins story?
Yep. Bruce and Talia were OK. Joker's plan to turn him into sidekick is kinda dumb. All-Caste is pants on head idiotic.
Does Dark Tzitzimine get paid to shill Lobdell? I hope he does, because Lobdell doesn't even put this much thought into his own scripts
>>77503437
First, that wasn't the secret Origins story, it was the zero issue one and this
>Joker's plan to turn him into sidekick is kinda dumb.
It was just the joker being the joker. Isn't like Snyder's Joker hasn't pull any kind of outrageous bullshit though. Worst case scenario is still a better idea that the idea of the three former Robins are custom made child soldiers that BRE is pushing right now
>>77503404
>Wrong. Lobdell set Essence as the one destined to beat the Untitled and Ducra herself even told Jason to leave them alone.
The whole group was set up as the best assassins in the world. Even Jason remarked in issue 1 that only a huge army could've taken a few of them. It was also said that the group was the only thing keeping the Untitled from conquering the world. That's why they agreed to a pact of non-aggression.
>Jason didn't learnt any of that and the dimensions stuff was part of of the Hundred Acres of All not different to any kind of mystical bullshit Nanda Parbat is able to do
Because we already had a Nanda Parbat. We don't need a bad copy of it. Specially one that meshed Nanda Parbat with League of Assassins for extra points.
Also, Jason new how to navigate the weird portals and new how to conjure spell his sword with magic.
>Wrong again. Jason was the only human to survive the rituals needed to be part of the caste. At no point Lobdell wrote he was the best student, that was Tynion
Ducra complimented him as one of her best students.
>>77503493
>Worst case scenario is still a better idea that the idea of the three former Robins are custom made child soldiers that BRE is pushing right now
Except that's an obvious red herring, where as Joker manufacturing Jason into Robin is canon, and blatantly stupid.
>>77503493
>It was just the joker being the joker. Isn't like Snyder's Joker hasn't pull any kind of outrageous bullshit though. Worst case scenario is still a better idea that the idea of the three former Robins are custom made child soldiers that BRE is pushing right now
The Joker took a random kid, sent his father to prison and sedated his mother to look like she was dead, set things up somehow so that the kid was taken by Bruce and trained by Batman, had the mom that was sedated and for some reason faked her death to lure the kid and killed them both. Later he put acid in the kid's mask and when the kid put the mask on without looking at the interior of the mask the kid managed to watch a perfect 3D hologram of the Joker where Joker gloated about the whole thing.
Nah, it was extremely dumb.
What's the worst book under Mark Doyle's editorial? Harley Quinn? We Are Robin? And they're still better than Red Hood/Arsenal, as well as most of the books under Berganza's editorial (main exceptions I can think of are Pak's Action Comics and maybe Starfire).
>>77503464
Pretty sure it's Lobdell himself. He spends most of his time shilling himself on the internet.
>>77503600
I chose to think that any person defending Lobdell's writing is Lobdell himself, because the reality is far too depressing.
>>77503493
>Worst case scenario is still a better idea that the idea of the three former Robins are custom made child soldiers that BRE is pushing right now
Yeah they're definitely not gonna do that.
If anything they're just gonna use it to justify why Batman has all these teenagers running around by comparing it to what Mother's doing and just say "well he's not as bad as she is!"
Though Joker somehow making a kid Robin through a lot of good timing and coincidences is worse story telling wise. Bruce just getting Robins premade is mostly terrible characterwise.
>>77503576
Harley is mostly mediocre and WAR is pretty good, if just slow.
So yeah probably Harley is the worst. It's just a comedy and fetish dumping book with okay art occasionally.
>>77503539
>Except that's an obvious red herring, where as Joker manufacturing Jason into Robin is canon
It was never confirmed as canon.
>>77503502
>Also, Jason new how to navigate the weird portals and new how to conjure spell his sword with magic.
No he doesn't
>>77503647
>implying that Lobdell puts any effort into defending his own writing, when he barely understands it himself
>>77503682
>where as Joker manufacturing Jason into Robin is canon
>It was never confirmed as canon.
It is. Lobdell had Joker gloating about it several times and even Jason believe it. We have no reason to doubt it. Lobdell isn't smart enough to write something as elaborate as a villain trying to purposely confuse someone.
>No he doesn't
He does, he followed what his master said and managed to navigate it.
>>77503682
Jason didn't knew where he was going, but HE KNEW HOW TO GET THERE. So he does know how to navigate the thing.
>>77503716
He spents most of his time on the intenet, which is why he gets no time to write actual scripts.
>>77503814
LOL and Jason even says it, too. How is it possible for Tzitzimine misinterpret Lobdell's writing?
>>77503885
>How is it possible for Tzitzimine misinterpret Lobdell's writing?
It's very easy. Shit is convoluted a lot. Take Nu52 Superboy.
>>77503909
Is this Red Hood?
>>77503925
But Lobdell spells out everything in black and white. Multiple times on the same page. And to make it further clear, he even tells you when he's being sarcastic.
>>77503928
That Hood is Red, so probably.
>>77503925
Is it possible for a writer to write characters so one-dimensionally and convoluted at the same time?
>>77503978
I don't know, but Lobdell does the impossible.
>>77503085
>>77503132
Tim wasn't Bruce's blood child. That carries a lot of clout and ties him to Bruce like no other Robin has been tied. Damian's tenure is also still far too early in the development stages. He has to be aged up first. He's only been around for 6 years.
>>77501252
Every character ever
Not joking
>>77504166
What makes you say that?
Most characters become more one dimensional when not in their own book since they're often used to prop up other characters or are for joking purposes.
>>77504228
It is just that I hardly ever have the MC as my favorite one, in any medium, the side characters always have great moments without being ruined by over exposure.
>>77504140
Not to mention Damian has been in multiple animated movies and Injustice and he's gonna be in AK.
>>77504284
His animated movies are awful and everybody is in AK.
>>77504284
Oh god Injustice Damian was so fucking horrible.
>>77504328
>>77504340
Yeah he's horrible in all of those things but that's more than Tim is getting.
Tim (and Dick for that matter) haven't gotten a movie around them yet but Damian has two and it sounds like he's getting a third one.
>>77504395
When Damian first showed he didn't appeared in any adaptations or cross-media, but he was everywhere in comics. The same is happening to the We Are Robin kids.
>>77504284
But his animated movies and Injustice versions are based on the shitty version of Damian that Morrison wanted readers to hate
>>77502748
Todd was barely a "dark mirror" in Morrison's run. He was the dorky, weird younger brother compared to Dick's cool, favored older brother. Jason was made to seem sympathetic rather than "lol he's a bad dick grayson"
>>77504284
AK?
>>77501453
Isn't that one of Spider-Man's books?
>>77502869
Anti Establishment just meant Counter Establishment, in fact, its usually the "countrr culture "that is so image concernced.
>>77503909
Movie Haruto really was best Haruto.
>>77504872
I assume Arkham Knight which I don't believe Damian is actually in... There was just a leaked costume for their shitty version of Tim Drake that's based on his.
>>77505222
>>77505222
Agreed
>>77504906
It was collected in a Daredevil trade, at least.
>>77502748
Yea trying to turn Jason into Dick's version of the Joker was sad.
And the Killing Joke Jason scene was pathetic.
It was writing that deserved Tan art.
>>77502658
Wait, does Lobdell have a dead son too? Man, between Loeb and Lobdell seems like all you have to do is have a dead son and the Big Two will just let you publish whatever shit you want.
God that's the most tasteless joke I've made in a while.
>>77505596
He is in AK. They confirmed it. The DLC drops in December.
>>77504422
Dude those kids are getting shelved. The book isn't selling well at all and it's a pretty stupid concept. Bruce is gonna wreck them when he comes back.
ITT: A literal crazy man argues about whether or not Jason Todd is a good character while people desperately try to talk him back to sanity.
>>77502748
>>77507992
Jesus Christ faggots read the run and stop talking from Wiki articles and secondhand post you see. Morrison turned Jason back into a hero and made him sympathetic. He was the middle child that just wants to be accepted despite his violent nature.
>>77509496
They can't just go away though. They'd have to like... kill them or some shit. And goddamn even current DC wouldn't be so stupid as to say "Yeah let's murder a whole bunch of kids, that'll certainly make us look good in the press and sell comics".
They'll have to invent some bloodless in-universe reason for them to never appear again.
>>77509595
>They can't just go away though.
Except they can?
They're dumb teenagers.
>>77509595
Yes they can. Wouldn't be the first time Bruce came back and kicked everyone operating except the Batfamily out of Gotham.
>>77507613
Yeah, I remember that. It was a three part story arc, with each issue being in a different book.
One in the Punisher (I think it starts there) then Avenging Spider-Man, and it ends in Daredevil.
>>77509479
Source?
Just because Ra's is appearing doesn't mean Damian is.
>>77510361
Use google you colossal faggot. Why the fuck would I waste my time tracking down a link for you?
>>77504906
Avenging Spider-Man crossover
>>77503086
I would totally read a flashback story about a sympathetic Jason fighting against a heroic Nightwing, with it contrasted with their current selves teaming up as bros.
UtRH but with my favourite character swapped out with Bruce, and then when you factor in where Dick and Jason end up years later, well, it's actually pretty cool. I want it. Not by Lobdell, please, let Seeley or someone write it.
>>77509595
It's called ignoring them.
Cassandra Cain was ignored for almost three years.
>>77509542
Yea nope.
That was RHATO first issue.
Keep being wrong.
>>77514747
Literally what. Read Inc you fucking faggot. Literally the first time Jason was shown as a hero again.
>>77514787
RHATO #1 saving Roy Harper
I really liked Lobdell/Rocafort on Jason
>>77511305
I did google. Just old rumor articles and the Tim Drake skin.
>>77514853
It's amazing how much less cringey this is without Lobdell's dialogue
>>77514853
Saving this version of Roy Harper is a crime against humanity
