Would it be accurate to say Lucifer pursued noble goals through ignoble means? He did create a fresh universe that was open to (almost) anyone looking for a fresh start, and was right to criticize Yahweh for his top-down predetermined way of running things.
He was just a dick. His fresh start was unnecessary since God left Creation anyway.
In the end, his inability to live with his origin as a created being destroyed him.
>>77490885
He was not noble. Everything he did was to serve himself.
Does Lucifer not get much love here? There's a lot of theology and philosophy to debate, but I almost never see threads about it.
>>77490885
It's like Sandman and Hellboy: they're almost universally loved, so there's not much to talk about. Plus, as a standalone series that ended years ago, there's not much of an active readership: if I wanted to get involved with the conversation, I'd definitely have to read it again beforehand.It's great
>>77490885
the dick forgot to build an afterlife and that's pretty bad
>>77494475
Why do you need an afterlife
>>77494475
Wasn't that intentional? I thought Lucifer did that so people would live in the moment more. As opposed to living a certain way to guarantee a good afterlife, or shitting on people who don't follow the rules and give them a shitty afterlife.
It was an intentional ommission, a reversal of Yaweh's Creation.
>>77494950
I can see why he did it, though I'm surprised he didn't have reincarnation or anything like that. Perhaps too Eastern a concept for him?
>>77490885
It wasn't really noble. It all boiled down to him wanting to one-up his dad however he could. It was an utterly narcissistic venture; Nobility implies selflessness.
>>77494994
Maybe. Although reincarnation goes back pretty far in the West, too.
Reincarnation poses the same problems as an afterlife, ultimately. Its inevitable that people would bring up the notion that living good would give you a better life in a future life and that being bad would result in a crappy reincarnation. Thats one of the basic ideas of Hindu and Buddhist reincarnation, if I remember correctly.
Desu it'll only last until he gets bored. He waxes and wanes with rage and interest
I feel like after this comic there shouldn't be any more depictions of Satan as a sympathetic, cool protagonist. Milton already pretty much aced that, and Lucifer is the ultimate expression of the idea.
Actually, are there any /co/ depictions of Satan where he's the unrepentant asshole that he is in Christianity?
>>77495091
That's sort of the case, but not 100 percent. It's been a while since I read up on the subject, but as I understand it it goes like this:
In reincarnation, karma is not necessarily like a point system. It's more like a ripple effect, and karma can wait forever until it hits you.
If you've read the first issue of Usagi Yojimbo, that's what Usagi means when he says "Such was my karma" after telling how Mifune died. Usagi's previous life didn't mean he would be incarnated as Usagi, it just meant that one day the ripple of his actions led to him surviving where others did not. All you can do in your life is try to live in a way that prevents you from having bad karma.
This is probably why Lucifer didn't want to have reincarnation, now that I type this, but I don't see it as necessarily incompatible. Of course, Lucifer's perspective and other people's are vastly different.
>>77495157
The First of the Fallen in Hellblazer isn't really "satan" but he's a pretty huge fucking asshole, if that's what you're into.
>>77495186
Ah, thanks for explaining that.
>>77495157
From "Seasons of Mist" Can't find a good scan, so I'll quote
-"Still, better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven, eh, little brother-killer?"
-"Y-yes my Lord, whatever you say my Lord"
-"We didn't say it. Milton said it. and he was blind"
Milton's Satan is every bit an asshole as he is in Catholic theology (well, which more there is). In Gaiman he's just chaotic and longs for innocence and clarity. Then in "Lucifer" he gets a new purpose when the Letter of Passage thing gives him and idea to use Michael to create another Creation.
I like the run, but feel no sympathy whatsoever for the guy. Michael was always better, and the best buddy is that elder daemon that cured the guy's cancer to feed her baby and later was a herald for brothers when they were going to that pool of God's thoughts.
>>77491420
Discussion should heat up now that the TV show that bastardizes the comic a la iZombie is coming up in January and there's a new Lucifer comic coming out soon-ish.
>>77490885
I love that he's a protagonist you can root for but not ever have to sympathise with. He's a sepecial kind of asshole.
Best Bastard/10
>>77490885
Him being right to criticize Yaweh doesn't translate into him being right to murder people for shits
Lady lys top tier waifu
>>77495089
>Nobility implies selflessness.
If the only nobles you've ever heard of are from Disney movies perhaps.
>>77490885
Not really.
Yahweh never seems to be all that interested in top-down rule. He let people do what they wanted, people went to heaven or hell depending on their own desires. The souls who went to hell were the people who wanted to be punished. In the end god left his own creation.
Lucifer's first rebellion was an attempted to usurp Yahweh's throne but Yahweh never seemed vindictively malicious about punishing him afterwards.
I see the entire series arc as Lucifer growing up. Instead of raging against his creator or rebelling or acting out of resentment he finally just does his own thing and lives his own life. When he finally does that then Yahweh meets him as an equal. Lucifer has grown up and is now an adult and God is finally meeting him as a father meets his adult child.
>>77490885
Yawheh gave Lucifer everything he wanted and it was never enough. He wanted a place of free will to do his own thing, God gave him Hell. When that wasn't enough, God gave him a letter of passage that would've let him leave Creation forever.
>>77500642
>it's a coming of age story
>>77495157
He is an unrepentant assholes in Paradise Lost too. It's outright stated that if Lucifer would repent God would forgive him, but his head is too far up his own ass.
It's also why the Christ can save man. Man repented; Lucifer refused.
It's been ages since I read Lucifer, but wasn't it very much a pivotal implication in the end that Yahweh basically predestined Lucifer to do everything that he did in his existence, not the fine details, but by large all of major acts as a person, such as his rebellion and quitting Hell, etc. just to drive forth the birth to the new creation? And it was only in the very end that Lucifer for the very first time, had a chance at true freedom?
>>77500642
this is the best explanation for the series, really. My own point of view from reading it was that Lucifer kept moving through phases of thinking of what he wanted, achieving it, and then deciding he was wrong and moving on. Over and over.
I think in the back of his mind, even from the start of the series, he suspected that Yahweh's plan was meeting an end within the near future (at that point). The books then became an exploration of what role he would hold when that time came, and then later, if he would hold a role at all after experimenting.
He really did grow up a lot. The entire process had to be done on his own terms and timing though, which was a part of his predestined character, and even this was something he barely came to terms with.
>>77501409
>And it was only in the very end that Lucifer for the very first time, had a chance at true freedom?
No, he never had a chance at true freedom, because it doesn't exist. Yahweh reminds Lucifer that even he is defined by forces external to himself.
>>77495211
I recall it being that the reason The First wasn't Satan was specifically because this series was being written.
mazikeen is best girl
>>77498181
Are you talking about Lucifer from Christianity or from "Lucifer"? It's been a long time but I can't remember him killing people for shits.
>>77504266
>implying the One Armed Bandit isn't
>>77490885
Anyone else think he looks like Commander Straker?
>>77490885
nah, his goals were always inherently selfish. He didn't open his universe to help those people, he did it to piss off the angels.
