See, /co/!? I FINALLY bought what you've been selling! This is what you wanted, right? No judges. No juries. No due process. Just me.
>>77484062
This is literally the opposite of what I wanted. Please don't lobotomize me.
You know, all the "Man of Murder" bullshit aside, Supes was right to kill Zod in Man of Steel. I don't believe it was the right storytelling choice to put him in that situation, but he was right to do it.
I love this finale.
The artstyle dissonance works so well.POP
This movie would have been a thousand times better if the animation and character design didn't suck so much.
>>77484062
>Superman Throws a Tantrum: The Movie
>>77484159
Honestly, I had no problem with it - superman HAS killed in the comics when nobother alternative was present and this was the case. It could be said Nolan didn't take the easy route.
>>77484648
He didn't throw a tantrum. He was fucking with everyone to prove a point. This version of supes is still better than man of steel. He also has a personality
>>77484062
Yes! All hail King Ka-El.
>>77485356
>Ka-El
jesus christ, and you are one of many people who talk about the superman character
>>77484062
This was a very badass moment.
The movie itself was really crappy on the morality issue though. All it shows is that our government should implement the death penalty on more dangerous villains and Superman should stop being cocky about his ability and use his Superbots to prevent collateral damage all the time.
They did nothing wrong.
People with power can, and should, walk over those without power.
>>77484062
K, let me just get my suit
>>77487815
Ah, here we are.
>>77484062
Cute Superman, you threw a man into orbit.
Talk to me when the Universe trembles at your punches.
>>77485023
Superman proves that might doesnt make right...by being mightier and proving he is right.
He sure told Manchester United.
K. Let me get my butler.
>>77487908
context
>>77487937
>Superman proves that might doesnt make right...by being mightier and proving he is right.
>He sure told Manchester United.
Yeah, that story never really worked for me for that reason.
>>77487878
How does he prevent Superman from lazering his face? Or throwing a heavy/extremely hot/cold object on him? How does he account for ranged shit?
>>77487953
That movie isn't canon anymore.
>>77487908
Power level fags are the worst.
>>77487940
How does he kick so hard that his shoe and sock explode, but his foot inside is unharmed? Not even his toes move!
>>77487937
No, he proved that mercy and restraint make for a better system using his might to demonstrate everything that is wrong with might makes right.
>>77487983
It's still going to happen. And besides we already know that SSG Goku in DBS has universe threatening punches. And this is an improvement on that.
>>77487997
No powerlevels, for once it's proven.
>>77487953
I like DB but christ go to /a/
>>77487983
That's not the movie nigger. That's the show where SSJ God's fight against Beerus is stated to be capable of destroying the entire universe.
>>77487971
Force Field
>>77487908
>His Gokuthread got deleted now he takes it to a Supes thread
Daily reminder the only saving grace in this movie was based Manchester Black
A man too good to be just a side guy for the League
fuck the League.
Superman is a hypocrat in this movie.
>You can't use force to rule over people
>Uses force to make the other side switch opinions
He literally did what he said he didn't agree with.
>>77484159
kill when absolutely necessary and especially when it goes against your moral code is epitome of a true hero, which is why guys like spiderman or aang who let their morality get in the way of saving people will always be lesser heroes. "ill be just like them!" is a cowards mentality. you don't have to go full punisher but c'mon man its fucking carnage.
>>77488231
I'm okay with that mentality with Batman because he is in kind of a weird position and in some continuities is very, very close to mentally snapping and so killing once very well could be that thing that pushes him over.
>>77484062
>Superman
>paying any attention at all to what edgelords think about anything
>>77488002
SUPER drugs.
>>77484159
my problem wasn't with superman killing Zod or the extreme level of destruction before he was able to stop him, I felt Zod's motivations for doing it made literally 0 sense
>>77487983
Actually the universe doesnt tremble. The multiverse starts being dissolved. 3 Goku punches is all it takes to destroy existence itself.
I don't care if Superman kills or not.
I care if he's poorly written or not.
You can write a Superman that kills and isn't poorly written.
>>77484062
I hated how everybody suddenly change their mind at the end
>The elites kill a dangerous supervillain who would kept killing innocents if not stop
"Killing is justice!"
>Superman would have kill a bunch of anti-heroes because he doesn't like the way they do things
"Killing is wrong!"
>>77487878
Shut the hell up, you annoying bald man
>>77487908
>>77487953
No need, little Goku. Call me when you can throw a punch across the multiverse and hit your enemy in multiple realities.
>>77484159
>>77484737
bravo, Reality finally speaks;
>>77489079
Nice try, he's punching an entity that EXIST in multiple realities, not through it. It's the same deal as Darkseid. So he's still only punching 1 dude.
>>77484159
There's always a way, anon.
>>77484159
Yeah, Zod was basically committing suicide by cop at that point. He had no reason to live with any possibility of Krypton being resurrected destroyed, but he wanted to try his damned hardest to destroy Superman along with him.
>>77487731
>>77488008
>mercy and restraint
Not the words I'd use for giving someone a lobotomy.
Thank fuck, lets go pop some heads.
Superman's entire message was destroyed when he lobotomized everyone. So much for due process, Superman
>>77489467
>>77489418
Yeah that's the only thing that struck me as wrong about the story. Superman made his point by taking Manchester's argument to the logical extreme (as in a setting like the DCU you can't possibly expect that there isn't ever going to be someone stronger than you). But then by forcibly removing Manchester's powers, he acted as judge and jury in imposing his will on him regardless.
You could argue that he still showed him mercy by letting him live, just taking his powers away, but that's still a dick move, and the message would've been more effective if Superman was able to just talk him down.
>>77488413
to be fair, that was his powers crossed with Beerus
>>77488413
>>77487983
>watching Dragonball Super shit
>>77484159
>but he was right to do it.
Fuck this and fuck this way of thinking.
>>77484159
Agreed, but I think if you're going to force Superman to kill, it should be in a 2nd movie. Hero at his lowest point, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAtlla_G1Dg
>>77489542
>But then by forcibly removing Manchester's powers, he acted as judge and jury in imposing his will on him regardless.
To be fair, the movie cuts out the part where he explains that he just temporarily disabled his powers rather than lobotomizing him.
>>77488002
The super pill made his body stronger, it doesn't extend to his footwear
>>77490151
Wait really? Shit, never mind. That fixes it then.
>>77490151
How does firing a laser into the guy's brain temporarily disable his powers
>>77490151
>To be fair, the movie cuts out the part where he explains that he just temporarily disabled his powers rather than lobotomizing him.
Sauce?
>>77490231
He basically just gave him a concussion.
>>77490231
Just gave it a shock rather than cutting it. I mean, he ends up killing himself later either way because he can't make Superman become hardcore.
>>77488371
Zod literally said Kal took away his entire purpose for existing. Everything he stood for and loved was now irretrievably gone, so he figured fuck it, I'll just kill every last one of these barely developed apes this upstart picked over his own species
>>77490277
Yes, Superman said Krypton had it's chance and didn't deserve another one. So he made sure by literally destroying the Kryptonians only hope of revival. All his own people, all his own culture, the reason Jor-El risked his life and got stabbed to death, just off handily gone.
Because that's the Superman we all know and love.
>>77490253
The actual comic itself. Though it could be argued that in the animated version he does indeed lobotomize him.
>>77490398
Oh ok, wow. I didn't notice because taking away their powers didn't bother me. That's actually a really important tidbit.
It could kinda be compared to Donner's Superman II deleted scene. Like yeah, it's deleted but it was featured to the public in some select theaters around the world so some people did see it and it exists. That deserves kudos by itself because it's the only thing defining the ambiguity. It could be argued either way with Lester because we never actually see what happens to them, we assume they died (I didn't actually - I thought they just cartoonish was placed off screen. Clark and Lois just fecklessly murder while laughing as a concept doesn't make any sense) but the fact it even exists at all is enough for me. Don't even really need Reeve to confirm this himself for Lester's version but he does.
>>77489805
>Fuck this and fuck this way of thinking.
Look, it's the screenwriters fault for putting Supes in that situation but logically he had no better choice than killing Zod.
Zod was a better fighter than him and getting stronger by the second. There is no kryptonite. There is no phantom zone. There is nothing but Clark standing between humanity and a one-man unstoppable genocide that is currently actively trying to murder people and cannot be talked down.
What else is there to do?
>>77490388
Krypton fucking sucked though and their culture was bullshit.
![supergirl #79 [ocd]13.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qGEizqo.jpg "supergirl #79 [ocd]13.jpg")
>>77489346
This mentality could only make a vague bit of sense in a world meant to emulate the Silver Age DCU, like in that of All Star. It has no place in modern comics, though, in which the fictional universe is clearly meant to resemble our own. Is Superman anti-gun? Anti-MILITARY? What the fuck is this even supposed to mean?
Well, people who parrot this haven't actually read Superman and just like the idealism they've heard Morrison brings into ASS via out of context panels posted on Tumblr, so I guess they wouldn't know about Superman within the context of the actual DCU.
Shut up, Supes. Your point is dumb. You're no different than the Punisher. You're both capes that talk about making a significant difference but never do.
The status quo is your god and profit is his word.
Why do people still argue for capes?
When they don't kill, they're just doing it to keep villains in the roster.
When they do kill, they don't kill anyone important.
Why do these fans still not realize this after 70 years of the same stuff?
>>77490756
Too bad for every other class of Kryptonian who served a function in society outside of being military or government. They all had their chance and don't deserve another. It wasn't even worth figuring out. Didn't know Superman was Xenophobe but that is modern and realistic.
>>77490951
>Why do people still argue for capes?
Because a superhero story with a real beginning middle and end can be pretty fun.
In a perverse way it makes cape movies a bit better than actual comics since movies don't have 50 years or more of continuity and author crap to keep track of and are allowed to tell stories that end.
>>77490981
>They all had their chance and don't deserve another.
Dude, their society was dead. Cloning them now would just be making a bunch of aliens with no cultural framework to raise them.
It would be like cloning a bunch of neanderthals to study neanderthal culture, but they'd all just grow up to be ugly humans.
Krypton's people are extinct, and brining them back would just create a new race of super powered humans who would wreak havoc on earth.
>>77490992
I think you both were on the same page, anon.
I agree with your point. No matter how bad or good they may be, I find movies and animated series to be the best way of telling superhero stories. They're contained and they have reasonable limits.
>>77490714
Dude, just look at your entire comment
>Zod was a better fighter than him and getting stronger by the second. There is no kryptonite. There is no phantom zone. There is nothing but Clark standing between humanity and a one-man unstoppable genocide that is currently actively trying to murder people and cannot be talked down.
>Look, it's the screenwriters fault for putting Supes in that situation
Even in film
>Zod was a better fighter than him and getting stronger by the second.
Superman has been on Earth for 33 fucking years. Zod "logically", "realistically", should be like a baby to him.
>There is no kryptonite.
Remember when Zod's crew took Superman's powers on the ship and injected him so he could go to dream world and drown in skulls? They said, "Here you're as weak as a human." That is Kryptonite damn near. That's in this film!
>There is no phantom zone.
In the original script Zod was going to be PZ which brings us back to the point that they wanted Superman to be responsible for a dead body.
>There is nothing but Clark standing between humanity and a one-man unstoppable genocide that is currently actively trying to murder people and cannot be talked down.
Which is Superman's fault to begin with by taking zero precautions, breaking into a secure military compound and literally summoning Zod to Earth. I thought this film was suppose to be realistic? If Superman had died in space as a baby hundred of thousands would be alive.
And why couldn't he talk Zod down by offering to help him revive Krypton in the dream world or there after? This film only inspires the fucking worse excuses. No pun intended.
>>77491083
I'd also accept a self contained graphic novel about a new character since I do enjoy comics as art.
But yeah, so far I've enjoyed animated series and movies more than ongoing books in most cases too.
>>77491057
>Krypton's people are extinct, and brining them back would just create a new race of super powered humans who would wreak havoc on earth.
You are not on the WB/DC team. Your head canon isn't canon. Bringing them back or hell even tearing himself up about the prospect could easily be a thing that could have been an excellent way of world building in the sequel. Stop trying to justify a Superman that thinks absolutely nothing of obliterating his entire species only hope, chance and future.
>>77491245
His species was fucking dead bro. That's like saying a guy smashing up all those test tubes in jurassic park is responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs.
>>77491290
Do you not comprehend the words revival? Or the concept that Superman basically heat visioned the last 10 women on a Earth full of men?
>>77487731
>>77491177
>If Superman had died in space as a baby hundred of thousands would be alive.
And if Zod had decided not to genocide the human race and instead work peacefully with Clark then maybe new krypton could have been created somewhere. But no, Zod had to be space Hitler and for some reason that is the fault of a guy who got shipped here as an infant and has no idea how any of this alien shit works.
>>77491385
>And if Zod had decided not to genocide the human race and instead work peacefully with Clark then maybe new krypton could have been created somewhere.
Yes, exactly. That could have been a thing if we got someone even marginally better than Synder and Goyer. It's really pointless to argue their ideas when they themselves are the flaws of the film.
>But no, Zod had to be space Hitler and for some reason that is the fault of a guy who got shipped here as an infant and has no idea how any of this alien shit works.
Yes, because what is Synder and Goyer felt Superman summoning Zod wasn't modern and realistic enough and instead summoned the anti-monitor or something to completely obliterate the Earth or universe without any hope? That's also realistic isn't it? And Clark took that chance without knowing. Would you be defending this shit then?
>>77491332
Best case scenario - Superman clones a bunch of Kryptonians from the matrix and they are raised on earth and integrated into human culture except they are our physical superiors in every way.
Worst case scenario - they are cloned and given to Zod to be raised in the shitty fascist culture of old krypton.
Neither of these is a remotely attractive option.
>>77491457
So why does the matrix need to be destroyed?
How about taking it to another planet completely? Settling the kyptonians somewhere other than Earth?
Sure this can't be done immediately, but the matrix isn't going anywhere
>>77487953
Ah yes
When goku was almost killed by a random laser blast to the back
>>77491455
My whole argument was that the screenwriter forced the situation, but given the options presented killing Zod was the only logical choice.
You are arguing that if the script gave Superman a convenient out to not kill Zod (like Zod not being a space hitler or there being some kind of convenient available de-powering device or something) that it would be wrong for Clark to kill Zod.
There wasn't one though. The move wanted to tell this story and you are mad that it wasn't the story you wanted to see. That's all there is to it.
>>77491494
>So why does the matrix need to be destroyed?
>Give matrix to Zod
>He fucks off to Mars
>20 years later him and his descendants go full invasion force on Earth, enslaving the population in order to expand the new Kryptonian empire
Great job dumbass
>>77491455
>Yes, exactly. That could have been a thing if the villain didn't act like an actual villain.
>>77491457
>Best case scenario
>Worst case scenario
>Neither of these is a remotely attractive option.
Again
>You are not on the WB/DC team. Your head canon isn't canon.
>>77491494
Because Synder wanted that moment for Superman to help define his no kill code.
>>77491553
How about just defeat Zod but leave the matrix intact?
>>77491494
Becaust they aren't Kryptonians.
Look, if all of humanity at this present moment was wiped out down to the last human and some alien scientist flew on down to Texas and decided to re-create cowboy culture by cloning a bunch of dead rednecks all he'd end up with is a bunch of retarded clones.
A species is more than just its DNA, its a culture and knowledge. Just bringing them back arbitrarily is pointless in the long run because you're reviving them for the fuck of it.
>>77491508
Wow it's almost like how you completely missed the beginning of the movie where Whis says Goku purposely let's down his guard which makes him vulnerable to attacks.
Seriously why don't people get this?
If he knew he was about to be shot at that laser would of done nothing. The entire point was to show how Goku gets overconfident. Against someone like saitama he would never let him get a hit in with his guard down(if saitama is even fast enough to hit him). And his punches are not near the caliber that we know Goku can tank.
>>77491510
>You are arguing that if the script gave Superman a convenient out to not kill Zod
How is it convenient if it's in the fucking movie? Zod's crew really does take away his powers on the ship and say out loud he's as powerless as a human and Superman fights Zod on that same ship before he destroys Krypton.
Oh my fuckkkkk...
How is it convient that Superman recongizes Zod's motivations for wanting to kill all the humans and then compromises with him in a way that agreeable to Zod in not only does he revive the planet with the help of Earth but keeps his powers???
There were options, that's what I'm saying. That even in film Synder and Goyer failed to make it seem like he didn't have a choice.
And the fact they didn't want him to have a choice is fucking fail.
You're acting like they really thought this shit out when in the same film they repeatedly treat Superman as if he's Jesus. They just lazily stole shit from Superman's good media and did a modernized, edgy repackaging.
>>77491699
>Zod's crew really does take away his powers on the ship and say out loud he's as powerless as a human and Superman fights Zod on that same ship before he destroys Krypton.
Clark is a motherfucking farmboy, he doesn't now how to operate the goddamn ship. He hadn't even seen any Kryptonian technology till a few days ago.
>How is it convient that Superman recongizes Zod's motivations for wanting to kill all the humans and then compromises with him in a way that agreeable to Zod in not only does he revive the planet with the help of Earth but keeps his powers???
It's kind of hard to compromise with a raging asshole space hitler man. That's just you being mad at Zod for being Zod.
A hero is someone who is willing to take the hard choices for the benefit of the many. If one man is killing everyone around him, and there's no way to stop him, you take him down. Violently if necessary.
Crying that you'll become just like him, or lose your grip, or you won't stop killing, is just a coward's way out. If such a scenario even crosses your mind, then clearly you're not mentally training yourself so that you don't randomly sperg out one day.
If I had my way as a super, and I had some sway in the government, I'd reinstitute the prison system in a new law.
>"Second Chance Doctrine"
>in the even of a villain doing a horrible crime, like trying to wipe out humanity, they will be given their sentence in jail, then be let free with a full pardon.If they do anything evil after that, death sentence. If someone tries breaking out of prison, death sentence. If someone knowingly and willingly murders someone while in prison (and it's not in self-defense) then death sentence.
There'd need to be exceptions, of course, but it's a system in progress. It would definitely prevent the Joker and Professor Zoom and Gorilla Grodd and Carnage from constantly murdering people and only getting a slap on the wrists.
>>77491770
>There'd need to be exceptions, of course, but it's a system in progress. It would definitely prevent the Joker and Professor Zoom and Gorilla Grodd and Carnage from constantly murdering people and only getting a slap on the wrists.
Lets be real here, if someone like the Joker existed irl he'd probably have a nasty 'accident' happen to him in police custody on his way to the courthouse and be dead.
Supervillains exist because comic writers need characters for their hero to fight. This has the perverse effect of making their heroes look weak and ineffectual though, so I guess that idea backfired hard.
>>77491571
>>77491760
>Clark is a motherfucking farmboy, he doesn't now how to operate the goddamn ship. He hadn't even seen any Kryptonian technology till a few days ago.
And yet he knew enough to turn his Kryptonian space ship into a bomb.
>It's kind of hard to compromise with a raging asshole space hitler man. That's just you being mad at Zod for being Zod.
No, that's me being mad at Superman for being nothing like him. He should have a brain and usually does and a willingness to exhaust options when someone's life in potentially on the line. Just like with Pa killed himself, Pa's motivations are fine to have to for Superman to stand their and accept them? No. You don't prove villains right and you don't stand there and let your love ones kill themselves in front of you because they fear the consequences.
can somebody post that thing from Injustice with Superman playing with a kid who wrecked his bike, then showing the same kid watching all the stuff from the game in college and being like "Why did we always want Superman to be a murderer?"
>>77491824
For the Joker it's especially egregious because he has no superpowers. For other, stronger superheroes, it's slightly more believable that they can keep breaking out of prison.
Or someone like Luthor whose whole shtick is that he's a fucking genius at spinning PR and politics.
>>77491561
Off the top of my head there's at least three things wrong with Snyder's explanation there;
1. The entire point of the Kobayashi Maru is that Kirk cheats and wins anyway, specifically because he doesn't believe in no win scenarios.
2. He doesn't put a single iota of effort into explaining the putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet, even though those are just as intrinsic. He has no problem skipping over how those things are established.
3. The default state of people is to have a no kill code. You have to actually train soldiers to get rid of it. Clark needing it confirmed turns him into a sociopath.
I'm okay with him killing Zod but fuck if the logic behind it isn't ass backwards.
>>77492114
I don't have the scan you're looking for but I wrote Taylor when I read that issue.
>"Thanks for making contact. I tend not to respond to most messages but I wanted you to know that you and I feel EXACTLY the same way about Superman. He has always been my personal hero too.
I'm glad this was the issue you were waiting to read. This was certainly the issue I was waiting to write, probably since I first began writing comics."
Two things I desperately want for 2016:
AOS back and Taylor to be a recurring writer.
I think the problem with killing Zod is that there's little build up and no follow through.
Having Superman being forced to kill, and that being a pivotal moment in his development as a hero, could be great. He takes a life out of necessity, but the guilt and responsibility leads to his desire to always find another way in the future. You could mine a lot from that.
Instead, we just get a sudden suicide-by-cop moment from Zod, a neck snap, and Superman yells. We next jump ahead to the future to a goofy scene with the military, the film never returning to Zod's death again. It's tonal whiplash.
Maybe BvS will flesh this out, but this should've been developed in Man of Steel in the first place if that's where they wanted to go.
>>77492444
>file name
Should really have him a coffin to accurately depict his brand.
I once heard a reviewer shake his head with disbelief in his voice and say, "but he's intelligent" in reference to Superman and being against the kill scene.
That always struck me as sad to have that rare perception shattered.
>>77489141
>Reality
>from a comic book character
Shut the fuck up, tripfag.
>>77490842
>It has no place in modern comics, though, in which the fictional universe is clearly meant to resemble our own
It will always have a place in comics because heroes always represent things bigger than themselves and the world around them, no matter how realistic. They have all these powers for a reason, so they can use it to set better examples and always find a way out. You can't possibly claim what is realistic or not when Superman is going around tugging planets with ease.
>>77484159
No shit, but crying like a bitch about was a stupid direction to go.
>Bringing them back or hell even tearing himself up about the prospect could easily be a thing that could have been an excellent way of world building in the sequel.
Reading this sentence gave me AIDS.
I'm not even saying you're wrong, man, just look at what you're about to do before you do it to all of us.
>>77491590
still shitty writing
>>77494681
Grammar or idea way?
>>77491561
are you autistic?
>>77488231
Didn't Spiderman vowed to kill the Green Goblin after he killed Green Stacy and at the end of the day GG was dead? Ok it didn't last because comic books, but the intent was there. Also with the kingpin in back in black.
>>77488023
That universe consists of 4 galaxies. The moon can be exploded casually by less than raditzes. That universe is tiny and made of paper mache.
>>77484062
This comic and animated adaptions were terrible strawman bullshit, its pretty bad when such things are resorted to to show why the 'other side' is wrong.
>>77491590
Except the Punisher could take out Goku at any time just by sniping him with a laser rifle while he was eating.
>>77488231
Spider-man doesn't kill because he simply doesn't want to, generally can't handle death,and generally thinks there is some good/redemption in everyone. It's not really a code so much as it's just how he acts. Spidey refusing to kill Carnage is a ridiculous extreme and brought up specifically because under normal circumstances he would have been giving FlashVenom tips on how to permanently end that fucker.
Batman on the other hand has a code. He wants to kill the shit out of out his villains but the only thing stopping him is his code. He actually thought out and planned how he should act.
Superman has a code because he feels that killing his opponents would be too easy of a solution and prone to abuse. The saying about "When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." comes to mind.
Aang actually has a code. I'll give you that one.
>>77488002
Took a pill that gave him super strength and durability.
>strawman argument: the comic/cartoon
>This triggers the capeshit
>>77487908
you kidding? superman did that back in 2006. Get with the times, old man.
>>77484062
It was this movie that cemented in my mind that George Newbern is the best voice Superman has ever had.
>>77499874
>Somehow moves his legs and pelvis back without moving his torso
Muh phyiscal autism
>>77498579
Nah, as a kid, before he even knew how to manipulate Ki, he was tanking automatic rifle shows from Launch.
But that was back when it was a comedy, so that may not count.
>>77484159
If Superman were a real person I would say that his killing Zod was completely justified and within the context of the movie it was but that scene felt forced and that it only existed for the sake of having superman kill.
It was just a badly written movie.
