You guys are economists, right? Are some of you bosses/employers? Enlighten me on the gender pay gap ($0.77 women for every $1.00 men) in Western countries, which people for some reason won't shut up about and still think is a problem.
1) How much of it due to direct discrimination? I'm sure it's probably not much but how much?
2) If you are a boss/employer do you pay your women less just because they're women? If so, why?
3) If so, how are you able to do it without being caught?
Please provide sources where you're able. No bully pls.
It doesn't exist
>>1285345
Okay, but can you verify that? I'm in a debate with someone and I need to prove it to them.
>>1285320
Don't get me wrong, /pol/ and /r9k/ are fucking retarded, but in this one instance they're right. There is no such thing.
>>1285320
>1) How much of it due to direct discrimination? I'm sure it's probably not much but how much?
$0
>2) If you are a boss/employer do you pay your women less just because they're women? If so, why?
Seeing how this board is /r9k/-lite, you will get plenty of yes answers in this thread. Odds are they're disgruntled NEETs though
>3) If so, how are you able to do it without being caught?
See 2. No person or business would risk it in the real world because of the massive potential for lawsuits.
>>1285320
first you need to diferentiate wage gap based on completed education.
you can't compare a man with a degree in engineering with $60.000 starting with a woman with degree in some bullshit women's studies earning $40.000 and spouting wage gap meme.
when you account for most of these things, I'm betting it comes to a slight difference in total, not nearly enough to give a reason for their bullshit movement
>>1285348
use basic logic
>if you people could pay women less, why would anyone hire a man?
>>1285376
>>1285363
>>1285367
>>1285376
The person I'm speaking with claims that the discrimination is "not blatant" and the employer can't get caught because he makes it so there's a stigma around employees discussing their wages, so employees don't know they're being paid differently for the "same work." How do I tell them this is retarded?
>>1285390
If you can't justify your opinion, even if it's correct, it's not an opinion worth having.
>>1285390
I call bullshit. Where I live have no problems discussing their wages. depends on the country though
employees will always know how much their counterparts are being paid
>>1285393
I'm trying to form an opinion, moron, that's why I started the thread
>>1285399
>how do I tell them this is retarded
Sounds like you do have an opinion.
>>1285401
Because anons already told me it's not real
It is true over a lifetime. But liberals always make it sound like it's an hourly discrepancy. For example:
>A woman with 2 children typically takes a full year off work between them both
>Men tend to work longer hours and are more likely to work weekends
>Statistically, women retire earlier than men
>Uneducated men take skill trade positions, while uneducated women gravitate towards low-paying retail positions
Take all these things into account and an average women makes 80% of what an average man makes OVER A LIFETIME. Hourly, however, they make damn near the same, dollar for dollar
>>1285406
I asked for sources, moron
There is zero falsifiable evidence that it even exists
This is the old cliche rebuttal, but if the pay gap did exist, why don't businesses only hire women to do the exact same job for less pay?
>>1285409
yes, and anyone can give you some hurr durr source that confirms their opinion
that's why you went to pol and got ass blasted about how it doesn't exist and now you believe the same, even though you saw no data on the matter.
fuck off and do your own research you goddamned idiot
>>1285348
>but can you verify that
That's not how debate works anon
Tell them to verify it for you with real research.
Blogs, Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, opinion news pieces, and Hillary Clinton are not verifiable sources of information.
>>1285390
> employer can't get caught because he makes it so there's a stigma around employees discussing their wages, so employees don't know they're being paid differently for the "same work."
God damn, laughing my fucking ass off.
You can't argue with these people. They are literally super left wing conspiracy theorist victims. Instead of "THE JOOS" it's just "THE PAYTREEARKEY."
It always come back to psuedo-psychological oppression bullshit.
>>1285413
>that's why you went to pol and got ass blasted about how it doesn't exist and now you believe the same, even though you saw no data on the matter.
The fuck are you talking about faggot, I didn't go to /pol/, stop shitposting
>>1285416
Everyone gives pol a bad name, but this is the kind of argument they put up with all day everyday.
>Liberal makes claim of sexism/racism/ect-ism
>Opposition asks for verifiable and falsifiable proof
>Liberals realize no proof exists of their claim
>Resorts to ad homs and straw men and posting interracial porn
>Repeat day in and day out
>Eventually, opposition doesn't even engage them in debate at all and just insults them
>Liberals then eventually proclaim how the opposition is stupid and won't even debate the issue with them
>>1285413
>Because anons already told me it's not real
>not /pol/
k
>>1285429
Literally everyone in this thread is telling me it's not real, and I'm not supposed to glean something from that? Now fuck off or stay on topic
>>1285320
supply and demand,
women for every $1 men earn, women only put in $0.77 worth of work, its that simple
there is no gender discrimination that exists in the business world, because the only thing that matters in making $$
>My sources
common fucking sense
>>1285435
if you take anything from here as a fact, you're a retard.
with how you're going about this, you might as well go to tumblr and ask them to tell you their opinion as well, so it's nicely centered.
too bad for you it will still be based on political opinion of others instead of facts. if you're hoping any anon here is going to give you numbers, you're in for a surprise.
>>1285441
>ask a question
>everyone gives the same answer, and it's not "Boku no Pico"
>don't take it as fact
>tumblr is centered
No, anon, you're the retard.
>>1285435
just look at it from a CEO perspective,
you need to make maximum $$ for shareholders
would you really care that much about gender when hiring?
no, 99% of people wouldn't
wage gap isn't real, no way to prove it with facts, it's all subjective
>>1285453
No.
>>1285430
Here in the trades world, I know how much you make just from you telling me what year you're in your apprenticeship.
>jimmy is a 3rd year apprentice
>oh that means he's at 60% journeyman wage
Everyone knows how much everyone makes hourly.
>>1285320
>If you are a boss/employer do you pay your women less just because they're women? If so, why?
i would pay less for a woman of same skills and competence as i know she will be a less effective workforce possibly disruptive.
if she proves me wrong her wage would be raised to par.
but they never do.
>>1285390
problem with discussing wages is that everyone seem to think they work hardest or their work is more valuable to the company then an others.
but this is just their feelings talking. can get messy if a guy wants a raise and he can bully out a raise and 3 other guys suddenly feel under appreciated as they think they are better than him. and so on.
>>1285495
/thread
>>1285367
>I'm betting it comes to a slight difference in total
women, especially young women introduce more risk for the employer.
they should earn less and not by an insignificant amount therefore.
i'm a firm believer that you handle shit like this as an insurance company would. things must be in equilibrium.
It is illegal to pay one group higher then they other for some shit like sex or race.
There would be no way getting away with it even if there was the amount of outrage over being found out would be killer for a company.
Women just don't work in high paying jobs as men it's that simple, example most doctors are male most nurses are female, if someone said hospital staff have a massive gender gap it would seem that way but, men go into more high paying jobs and also ask for a rise more, also a rise will mean mo money women tend to get a baby in em and stop work meaning no rise meaning less money.
>>1285553
>nurses make almost 40 dollars an hour
>>1285320
It comes down to negotiation and life choices. Women shy away from jobs that require long and unusual hours, and those that are dangerous. Such jobs are often better compensated than similar positions that go 9-5 and won't hurt you. Most women also make adjustments to their hours or take leave or switch jobs entirely to accommodate child-rearing. This gets them off track compared to someone whose primary goal is getting paid a lot and advancing. Additionally, many women are bad at negotiating high compensation and initiating conversations about that. The onus is not on the employer to give them more money if they don't give him a reason to.
If you expect someone to move, quit, or take leave soon, why would you go out of your way to pay them more if it won't affect their decision?
>>1285390
Your friend's objection doesn't explain why an employer is obligated to give someone compensation they haven't made a compelling case for.
BTW, I know two women who proved themselves extremely valuable to their respective employers (both of which you'd recognize) and used this to negotiate jaw-dropping deals with regards to hours and pay after they had kids. That took a lot of initiative and damned hard/smart work. Most people are not as uniquely valuable as those women, and their pay and hours are determined by what is essentially a calculation against risk of losing them and how much it would cost to replace them.
>>1285553
>It is illegal to pay one group higher then they other for some shit like sex or race.
how would you ever be able to prove it when wages are individually negotiated?
>>1285680
By comparing paystubs side by side
>>1285320
fixed
>>1285689
But you'll never get two employees who are absolutely identical in every respect except sex. The employer can always justify the difference in wages by saying that one person is better qualified, more experienced, works harder, is more senior, whatever. Or even that they're just better at negotiating salary.
Ultimately employers want to pay everyone, male or female, as little as possible without harming performance or driving the person to another employer who will pay more. That's business; wages are an expense and if you can reduce that expense without impacting revenue then you obviously will. And the price of wages is ultimately determined by market forces. It is not a direct reflection of the value that a person contributes to the business.
The existence of somethnig like a gender pay gap then becomes self-reinforcing. If I have a male employee who could probably find a job at another company getting 100k, and an equally productive female employee who could probably get another job at 80k, then what am I going to do? I have an obligation to the business to maximise profits; I'm not going to voluntarily give the woman 20k more than the market requires me to. I might never even think about the fact that one of the employees is female; there's certainly no need for any conscious sexual discrimination. I'm just paying market price for labour.
>>1285712
Majority of people work for minimum wage and last time I checked its the same for both men and women.
>>1285694
Yeah, bottom class people are disgusting
They should be more Educated
>>1285717
>Majority of people work for minimum wage
Well no, not even close.
But anyway, when people talk about a gender pay gap, they are not talking about a difference between male and female minimum wage. Obviously.
>>1285320
>>1285781
>all women and men are the same
nice meme, male version of feminist
>>1285406
You're right, opinions are gay, never ask other people what they think, or try to learn from others
I don't think I've ever seen a female worker who wasn't lazy as shit. Pretty sure you don't need a two hour lunch break, Denise. Go ahead and call it an early day, it isn't easy texting for five hours straight.
>>1285781
It must really suck to be an ugly woman.
You have all of the male column with none of the benefits of the female column.
>>1285783
It's not a 100% accurate, but it's a pretty simple indicator of all the cons of being a man.
Feminists ignore the cons of being a man.
>>1285320
1) Ask the person you are debating to cite examples of how it exists.
2) Point out the flaws in each example.
3) Go back to step 1 until examples are exhausted
4) Re-cap why they're belief is flawed
>>1285797
>worst looking woman in the bar yells, "who wants to fuck me?!"
>at least 5 guys fight over dibs
>worst looking man in the bar yells, "who wants to fuck me?!"
>5 ugliest women look at him disgustedly as he is dragged out by a bouncer
That being said, I'll take the struggle over being a hormonal wreck 50% of the time. Keep in mind that women are completely sane and rational about half the time, so they are able to recognize when the crazy takes over the other half. Imagine how infuriating that must be. It's like being schizophrenic, but intermittently sane for just long enough to constantly be reminded of how crazy you are
>>1285320
I'm not going to bother reading the thread.
It comes down to the way it's calculated.
>All the wages of men divided by the male population.
>All the wages of women divided by the female population.
If you don't already see a problem here, then I'll give you a hint:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msSDI328UPc
>>1285798
>Feminists ignore the cons of being a man.
And MRAs or whatever their meme name is these days just like feminists ignore the cons of being female
>>1285829
Agreed.
>>1285829
Which one of those groups is changing the societal structure and getting laws passed to enforce their flawed ideology?
>>1285796
Where are the sources kiddo.
>>1285320
There's no such thing once you account for education level, experience, personal ability etc.
Here's a related story for you. I worked for an online broker who would hire people in groups of about 40. We were supposed to study half the day for our series 7 exam and the rest of the day we would do non broker costumer service. About 60% of the men passed their exam, about 20 % of the women passed after being given a second chance. Over half of the men hired tried to negotiate their pay, non of the women did.
Just spitting out statistics is bullshit, you need to understand why those numbers are what they are.
>>1285320
>>1285852
Women don't want to do different jobs, they want child care workers to get the same pay as a boiler maker for example. They feel that female dominated professions are undervalued. They don't seem to have real solutions though. I guess communism would be closest to what they're after, same pay regardless of job.
>>1285712
When you say things like this out loud, does your audience adopt a slack, uncomprehending expression ?
And then if you go the other way and dumb it down, do they get all butthurt because you're patronizing them?
Looking for pointers, as I fuck it up every time.
>>1285903
>I guess communism would be closest to what they're after, same pay regardless of job.
Even communists aren't stupid enough to do that.
If woman make .77 cents too a dollar, why doesn't every business only employ women?
>>1285430
Another Austrian here, the best you can do is to NOT talk about your salary.
a) They hate you because you earn more for the same work
or
b) they think they are better then you and look down at you
>>1285689
not proof if someone is not able to negotiate the same wage as an other, that just means exactly that.
hard to prove any discrimination even if there is statistical correlation.
>>1286099
Thanks! Looking interesting, will check this out.
>a specific number
>"western countries"
you should know right then and there it's a load of shit. Under what circrumstances would a wage gap form the exact same way across so many nations?
It's illegal to pay people different wages for the same work in pretty much all western nations, so if someone complains they're not being paid enough they either arent assuming as much responsibility or hours as their competition, or they should just fucking sue/report them to the proper authorities.
it's a non-argument because the solution is already there.
