How much of success is due to hard work, and how much of it is due to simple luck (randomness)?
Back up your claims.
>>1005122
By continuously working hard you allow yourself to get "lucky".
Yeah most of success is probably luck but if you don't create the opportunity for it you will never get lucky. If you don't take all those job interviews, try creating your own business, invest in memes, etc you can never win
>>1005122
About 82.3856% of success is due to hard work, and about 17.6144% is due to simple luck (randomness). I know this because I am aware of every single success story known to man and can pinpoint exactly how many instances are attributable to hard work.
>>1005126
This. Hard work creates luck, or rather, hard work allows one to get lucky more often.
>>1005126
What if you keep trying and eventually run out of money and credit, and go broke?
Businesses and investments can fail, and it's possible that you won't get that job.
>>1005135
When it comes down to it, your business being successful relies on "luck" but you can make yourself very "lucky" (likely to succeed) by making intelligent decisions.
>>1005135
>What if you keep trying and eventually run out of money and credit, and go broke?
Then it wasn't meant to be.
>Businesses and investments can fail, and it's possible that you won't get that job.
Not if you keep trying as hard as you possibly can.
Ie, researching the best possible resume for jobs you're applying for, learning interview skills, networking in the best manner possible, etc. If you do it the best you can absolutely do it and you do it CONSISTENTLY you will eventually win.
People do not get unlucky repeatedly for the rest of their lives and then die. It just doesn't happen. Bring up any unsuccessful person and I'm sure we as a group here on /biz/ can point out any flaws in what he has done in his daily life.
Hard work can take you a long ways but you've got to catch some breaks along the way to have the sort of outsized success a Buffet or Gates has had. Bill Gates even admits that luck played an immense role in his success.
Luck plays more of a role than most people would like to admit. And the bigger the success the more luck played a role I think.
No doubt that enough hard work can get you a 6 figure salary. How about becoming a millionaire? What about becoming a billionaire? Is hard work really all it takes? Is that all that separates the millionaires from the billionaires?
Own your own business? Sure, work hard and you'll likely get there. What about owning a company that goes on to dominate the market and becomes one of the largest companies in the world? What really separates the small business owner from a Jeff Bezos?
>>1005130
Redpill: Free will doesn't exist. The capacity to work hard is given to you at birth throught genes.
Hard work and merit is a cope.
Hard but smart work creates success.
>>1005362
Redpill lvl 2: free will is an ill-defined concept and is really only productively discussed in a religious context since it's just metaphysics.
I got into trading and sucked at it for 2 years. Met a guy on a Facebook group who shared me his strategy. It made me successful enough to put on my resume and got an internship at big firms/funds in NYC and NJ. So yeah, it's pretty much luck.
>>1005396
It's not metaphysics. Genetics are everything. What's metaphysics is thinking otherwise.
>>1005122
Bill Gates was born to an upperclass family, and has accessed to computer and good education since he was a kid. His family raised him to be competitive and industrious and that somehow created his personality and work ethic.
Warren Buffet, as I recall, has the same upperclass background. He could create a fund of 200k after college from his family, relatives and friends. Its much easier to run a hedge fund with a lot of connections with rich people.
Now what if Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were born in a third world country like North Korea and Somalia, to a family of a drunk father and a whore mother with 5-6 younger hungry siblings to feed? Do you think they could become successful as they are today?
So the answer is that luck plays a very huge important role in success here. Not a single moment of luck but a series of luck throughout one's life.
But there are still examples of outstanding great successes achieved by talent, courage and skill. Genghis Khan was one such example.
>>1005461
>tfw not born into the great inbred Khan family name where every Uncle is a millionaire
>>1005122
I think luck isn't disused much because if people realized how important it was they wouldn't be such "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" consumer whores.
But persistence and grit is still king. You might not get yacht and island rich but if you have self control (willpower) the math doesn't lie for routes like early retirement extreme
IMO the first step should be financial independance. I say fuck that to 10 million a year income with 12 million in expenses. Any turd burger who's been alive a few decades and has any sense of humility can look back and realize all the sex and drugs (sensory pleasure) was fleeting.
40 years of 9 to 5 so I can eat out at chili's on weekends and watch daytime tv? If that's the hot ticket life then end this miserable world right now
>>1005362
>>1005396
Tell that shit to a hundred years of behavioral psychology.
Your loss if you think your hard wired to be a lose but they've actually found ways to tweak and improve ones "drive" (willpower) and goal setting and attainment focused help can be found in oodles of places.
So yeh maybe on some quantum woo woo level it was predetermined that you'd pickup the book and apply it but that copout seems like a shitty regret to have on your papers deathbed.
>>1005489
>bla bla bla
Not being born rich = death.
A prepared mind get the right impulse. So this is how hard work is connected with luck. Preparation and readiness determines ability to get lucky ways.
>>1005490
The argument goes that your choice of options is determined by what you believe to be the best course of action. What you believe to be the best course of action is determined by your previous experiences. So if you've worked out before and think it's a better use of your time, you will go for a jog instead of playing league.
If you believe that exercise (for health or attractiveness) doesn't provide much benefit to you (if you're a NEET shut-in, league seems a better use of resources, since you enjoy it and the benefits from exercising aren't seen), then you'll likely pick league as you believe it to be the better (more fun, in this case) use of your time.
You can make loads of arguments against both people's claims (probably more the NEET by societies standards) but ultimately, their choice is determined by what they believe to be best, which is due to pre-conditions not under our control.
To quote John Rawls: "Even the will to improve oneself is pre-determined"
It is my opinion, similar to the greeks, that we all try to do ourselves the best we can but since we have different conceptions of the good, only knowledge can change our actions/habits/ethics.
>>1006054
It's pretty objective that going on a jog or applying to some jobs is a better use of time than playing videogames.
But what about in the case where people are fat and lazy for 5 years then start working out, get a job, etc?
>>1005122
More shots, more chances, greater likelihood of striking wealth.
duh.
>>1005122
> hard work
honestly don't know what is meant with 'hard'
for me there's just work. I go to my office, I do my work and I stop when I'm done.
Only in sales you can really create work.
You have to be a criminal, a good liar, or someone born to wealthy parents to make Bill Gates/Warren Buffet bank. Sorry, but it's the truth.
>>1005122
You're so naive.
I'll explain my point of view as simply as I can.
You are born into a situation in life, not of your choosing. You don't choose your childhood or your parents or even your own abilities, you're born with them. It is a hand that you use to play in life.
I also don't understand how hard work equates to generating money, there is no universal standard for calorie expenditure and money earned, when you throw in an un-quantifiable skill in the mix, its very hard to put a universal value on a particular skill and the whole thing is just fucked.
Success is pure randomness. If someone appeared to put a lot of energy and time into making a profitable business, that was luck. Luck because he was born with the skill set to enable him to be business minded and smart and perhaps be raised well. If you're born a retard normie, no amount of anything will make you successful, unless you have luck, its all luck in many forms at different times in your life.
Its all random and fortune.
>>1005126
This--you need to expose yourself to opportunity.
Even then you can fail or get cucked by a bad system.
It's a cliche, but you also have to work smart. If you just keep your nose to the grindstone and work like a dog, you'll just be used and thrown away when you are obsolete.
And of course, some people are born "successful" (wealthy) and essentially get a lifetime vacation. If the lack of challenge and doesn't drive them insane, they can spend their life indulging in art, working for nothing to do what they love, etc.
>>1006333
Yeeeeeup
>>1006120
Generally be better than those around you, and be able to reap the rewards of being excellent without earning too much hate from others.
The small business owner often has to find ways to *stop* working hard or find efficiencies, otherwise they burn out or just live an extremely hectic, unhappy life.
>>1006349
>Generally be better than those around you, and be able to reap the rewards of being excellent without earning too much hate from others
kind of difficult when the 5 colleagues of mine have each more than 6years of experience kekkkk
I only started 5 months ago
>>1006342
Success is relative. The poor kid from an abusive home who claws his way up to the middle class by running a few hotdog carts would be a success.
The rich stanford grad who does the same thing would be a living joke, or at best an eccentric.
On a metaphysical level, maybe you're right--our "hand" was played the moment the big bang happened. But that doesn't really inform our lives in any useful way. The only thing I can take away from your conclusions is that we should strive for a fair and meritorious society, so that human potential isn't wasted.
>>1006355
I'm just speaking in general. Eventually one of those colleagues will leave or move up, and you want to be the guy who takes his place (or demonstrate your value so thoroughly that you can get a better position at another firm).
You define your own success, so if you're happy keeping on at the same pay grade and just tucking money away to travel the world and buy underage southeast asian prostitutes then good on ya m8.
Look you need both. Napoleon said something about the difference between opportunity and ability.
Opportunities come around all the time. Whether or not you have the wherewithal to seize it is another matter entirely.
There's plenty of rich kids who waste away, the talented loser is such a common trope that it need not be repeated. I've never seen a case of effortless success.
>>1006360
Success is of course relative yes. If one aspires to play video games and shitpost on a Cantonese hiking supplies forum then they do it, they've succeeded.
I don't really have an intended conclusion, all I'm really saying is that whatever you do, you were fully destined to do anyway. So just stay smart and don't stray from yourself.
>>1006058
>It's pretty objective that going on a jog or applying to some jobs is a better use of time than playing videogames.
No. Firstly knowledge of the objective sort (let alone normative questions with no answer) after is impossible. Secondly, if your life goal is to have fun and videogames are your best way of achieving that, then why would going for a jog be more fun than what is designed for fun
inb4 "but i meant objectively better to society":
Well then, you must either try invent something, or dedicate your life to helping others if we're to take a strict utilitarian view of what is "objectively best"
>But what about in the case where people are fat and lazy for 5 years then start working out, get a job, etc?
Following our conversation, the fat/lazy guys didn't previously see the benefits of being thin. once they became thin (or other realizations), they saw the benefit and so decided to work out. Working out made him see the benefits even more and so he continued that habit.
>>1006670
>Secondly, if your life goal is to have fun and videogames are your best way of achieving that, then why would going for a jog be more fun than what is designed for fun
Most people aren't happy from videogames though. They just do it because of addiction and training themselves to do it over many years. It also leaves you with nothing. 10 000 hours of Dota 2 grants you close to no real life skills compared to 10 000 hours doing anything else even somewhat productive.
>Following our conversation, the fat/lazy guys didn't previously see the benefits of being thin
But having scientifically proven worse health, lack of energy, much higher rates of various illnesses and diseases is hard to argue.
I mean yeah you could be abrasive just for the purpose of being abrasive like you are right now but it's like saying "Yeah well smoking isn't objectively bad for you, maybe your GOAL is to die early and you enjoy fun from inhaling chemicals and smoke!"
>>1005122
If I had that much money I would invest in a new jawline. No seriously. Bill Gates does not have a jawline. He has a chin and then its just floppy skin up to his head. This is probably the most solid prove of him being a reptilian.
>>1006681
Are you doing it for the ladies brah? Because with Bill Gates money I don't think you'd have to worry about being attractive or anything.
>>1005461
Yeah, if you think about it luck is one of the biggest factors. If you were born a middle/upper class white male in a first world country then you're already in a better position than literally 99% of the world at birth. Heck, if you're an African female born in a lower class family in a first word country then you're still better off than most of the world.
But really though, nobody really cares about the guys living on $1 a day in rural India who live in a town with 50 with other people. Even if you were born in a first world country you would still need luck for certain things. Hard work can get you a $100k a year job, but luck is what gets you the $300k a year job, unless you were born really lucky and inherited a really successful business, like Trump real estate or the WWE, or something. Then you could probably become a billionaire with hard work, but you're not going to be Bill Gates without luck.
>>1005489
>Your loss if you think your hard wired to be a lose but they've actually found ways to tweak and improve ones "drive" (willpower) and goal setting and attainment focused help can be found in oodles of places.
That doesn't mean anything. All you're saying is that the human body responds to stimuli and is affected by its environment, which I think most of us would accept. Bridging the gap from that to the denial of free will requires religion and metaphysics.
>>1005437
"Genetics are everything." is a metaphysical statement. You're arguing metaphysics (or attempting to, since the way that you're phrasing your argument is nonsense) but apparently unaware of it
>>1006975
>denial of free will requires religion and metaphysics
you don't decide your genetics
you don't get a choice about being raised by stupid, mentally ill adults
you don't have a say in the development of your personality or brain
I'm not denying free will, I'm saying that I don't need to have a PHD in metaphysical basket weaving to know that someone born into a family of poor fucks in the boondocks is worse off than someone born into a Hammacher Schlemmer stroller.
>>1006984
Then we're not talking about free will anymore. You're just saying that human will faces at least some constraint from the real world which, again, most people agree with.
>>1006956
>trump
>lucky
Agreed, he got millions from his father, but he was the one who turned them into BILLIONs. There are a shitload of kids who get millions but waste it all. Success is kinda inherited, but that shouldnt discourage you from trying and working your hardest.
>>1007138
>turning 400 million into 4 billion
If he would've just invested his money into an idea fund he'd be worth 20 billion. Trump isn't anything special, he's an arrogant fucktard.
>>1007138
I know. I was saying that to be a billionaire you have to be lucky, like Trump, AND work hard.
>>1005122
In any competitive field, both are necessary. You need hard work to get into the same competitions as the other people in the field, and luck to win.
In a noncompetitive field, either one could probably lead to success.
Luck definitely is the bigger factor. M parents were lazy workers, I grew up in a bad neighbourhood because we were poor which also turned me into a lazy person. When I started college I've wasted many semesters and had to learn not to be lazy and understand my situation.
I saw other kids whose parents were for example doctors and they had all the motivation and resources to be successful in college. I will be finished with CE next year but honestly I wish I was one of those kids even if I end up earning more than them. They've had a less stressful life, especially In their 20s.
>>1007433
Considering the average real yearly return on real estate is 1% I'd say he did pretty well. It makes much more sense to compare his performance to other property developers than to the S&P as a whole.
>also muh 20/20 hindsight
>>1005141
This man has it right. I like to point out Robert Heinlein (the author) for this.
Born relatively poor, worked his ass off. Gets into the Naval Academy only to get kicked out for TB he picked up in Panama five years later. Began silver mining. Failed. Began politicking, failed. Began writing. FAILED.
Then, suddenly, he gets a good editor in John Campbell, and becomes one of the greatest sci-fi writers of all times.
>>1007867
Success only comes after 20 fails.
Luck is 99% of it, Hard Work is 1% of it. 0% of it is asking what makes success, because by asking, you're trying to work for it, not for you.
Work for you, and success will come, work for success and there will be nothing but hard times ahead my friend, because you'll always try to quantify success with something, like $100,000,000.00 which is just limiting yourself.
>Work for you, success will follow. Work for success, it'll make you hollow.
>>1007818
if you are born to a poor low class family in a first world country, you are still luckier than 90% of the world population already.
>>1007914
Sort of. You have the displeasure of knowing precisely how much more you are missing out on, and also how far you could slide down the totem pole. The perfect combination of carrot and stick for you to get you to slave away for Mr. Shekelstein.
>>1005122
75% luck.
See people born in Ethiopia, Russia, gang infested streets in America, or places where warfare is happening, and that's not even accounting for people who get born into families with lots of money.
>>1007921
have you ever heard about stories of doctors, lawyers, college professors from China, Vietnam, India abandoned their privileged life in their countries to go to a first world country to start out everything again from scratches?
Too much complaint, blaming and whining in this thread. Hell, if you are born in a third world country in the 21 century, you are still much luckier than 99% of people throughout mankind's history.
>>1007948
Those rich people from China don't exactly come over with nothing bruh.
Other than that I'd say there is generally a lot of opportunity in developing nations which is missing in already established economies. Like when you could just sign up for a parcel of free land from the govt. if you built a house there and farmed it.
>>1007914
Fucking bullshit. The world is more rigid and complex than it ever was. Advantages of birth aren't everything, but they are more influential than ever.
>>1008041
you would be surprised to know how many full-time teachers, government workers, engineers ... in third world country would give up everything they have in their native country just to go to Canada, America or Australia to start everything again.
Everybody loves to complain about how hard their life is. Your life is truly hard, only when compared with Bill Gates' or Buffet's.
>>1008103
Prettttttty sure we're all aware, or at least I am here in Australia. Man do you have any idea how many chinese and indians come over here?
>>1008128
Fuck yeah man. Melb/Syd is basically more asian than white at this point.
>>1005126
>By continuously working hard you allow yourself to get "lucky".
this desu senpaitachi
'luck' happens when you notice an opportunity and seize it
hard work creates opportunities
>>1005122
Note of the two people pictures, Buffett's father was a congressman, his family owned a chain of stores and he went to a Ivy League school. Gates was born with a million dollar trust fund, went to an expensive prep school as a child and then an Ivy League school.
So neither work, nor randomness did this, but being born with a silver spoon.
>>1005122
It's mostly luck. But hard work can play a role too.
The more opportunities you have tje easier it is to be succesful
>be son of billionaire
>lay on my bed
>receive millions
>be poor afghan farmer
>wake up
>farm for 15 hours
>sleep
>wake up to bombs
>my field is destroyed
>starve to death
>if only i had work harder
>ifyoudreamit.jpg
>>1005122
Define "hard work" and define "luck". You need both naturally but if you're some retard "working hard" at retail and his bet on being "lucky" is playing lotto, then good luck with that.
both hard work and luck
>>1005122
read this:
http://antilop.cc/sr/
best thing i've read in last few years
>>1008525
>MFW Hardwork pays off when socialists aren't in the way.
True genius achieves mediocrity as a tradesmen. Goes on to become political activist. New saying "If you can't do, complain about why, hem and haw about it, and maybe somebody will pay you for it."
>>1008924
>MFW
