>>688514627
I'm a freelance and my own boss.
I work, I get paid, this is as simple as it should be for everybody.

>>688514883
>I'm my own boss
>I get paid
Ok buddy

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>>688514627
1/2

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>>688514627
Communism is a system where doctors are paid the same as untrained labor...and both are paid poorly so the top comrades can continue to live in decadence. It's a system just as broken as any other.

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>>688515192
2/2

>>688515219
there is no payment under communism

>>688515036
You do know freelance work for money right ?
> Freelance sends invoice to client
> Client pays the invoice
> The freelance has been paid \o/

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But I am, OP.

Crush the bourgeoisie, class war now.

>>688515219
Wow how the fuck did you draw those conclusions?
Let me wiki that for you:
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.

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>>688515440
Right. But you're not the boss. Not even your own boss. You're a wageslave who has to sell his labor to the highest bidder.

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>>688515328
If there is no payment, there's no work.

If there's no work, no one brings in the harvest.

If no one brings in the harvest, people don't eat.

If people don't eat, they die.

Economies must exist, even in communism. Things have a value, even if they are "community owned." Unfortunately, who gets to decide the value of anything? Those people who get tasked to do so have attained power and acquiring power leads to a lust for more power. Communism is a failed experiment and needs to stay dead.

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>>688515328
doctors are given the same food rations* as untrained labor

>both slack off at work
>they have no incentive to compete or advance
>all businesses are run DMV-style
>all the worst jobs are abandoned,
>nobody is gonna do plumbing without the $ incentives
>the streets fill with poo poo
>poo poo rations replace food rations
>we eat the poo poo

>>688515862
>no incentive
Only assholes will have no incentive.

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>>688515860
>If there is no payment, there's no work.
Why?

>>688516148
>only assholes won't manually unclog sewers, build someone else's house for them and sift through trash for recyclables without an incentive

The reason why communism dosnt work in reality is becuse there isnt any motivation for work. Would you work as best as you can if you get paid the same amount as the guy who is mostly sleeping at work (if he doesnt get caugt that is)?

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>>688515745
Being the boss means I'm able to decide.

I decide what
I decide who
I decide when
I decide how much

When I choose to take some risks, the benefits are my reward.
When I work hard, I make good money.
When I choose to lay down a bit, I take the time to enjoy life.

>>688516212
Simple: what I do has value. What I put into life has worth. By claiming what I do (factory maintenance) has the same value as some day laborer demeans the effort I put in to getting good at what I do...not to mention those who have spent even more time studying/preparing for their careers. While I agree that all current systems are broken, there is no true solution that solves everything.

>>688515745
I don't think you understand what a wageslave is anon.

Sooo how many iphones am I entitled to under comunism?

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>>688514627

Communism is a bit too extreme. You CANNOT "do better" than your fellow man and everything is forcefully shared. If your fellow man is a shitstain do you want to be forced into "sharing" with him?

With that being said criticism against capitalism is valid. You don't own your own labor, you're on the schedule of someone else, who of course treats you like shit and makes greater and greater demands on you. This is especially true the more distant and out of sight they are from you, e.g: HQ office in another city dictating new terms to bottom tier workers who do not know the faces or cannot even go to another city just to confront them.. as if they would anyways.

The aspect of being distant from those who you command is somewhat unnatural and upsets the power balance. Imagine giving someone unreasonable commands to their face vs. when you can do it through so many proxies that the people who you're commanding don't even know what you look like, where you live, or how to find you. That's basically what CEOs can do. They're in a safe place where they can make decisions and no low tier workers are about to burst into their office to call them out on their shit.

No laws can instill deceny into other people. I wish I had the answer but for now not being a slave cuck will have to do.

There's nothing from with labor but not owning your own labor is very indignifying to a person when some asshole who feels no reprocussions dictates everything to you about your own survival.

Hope this all makes some sort of sense :^)

>>688517122
Tell me :')

>>688516979
Right of course there's no true solution that fixes everything.
But communism is a far superior system anyway.

And whatever you feel has worth has worth. Okay we can say that. Why should that involve working for someone you don't care about and not just for yourself or the people you love?

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>>688517378

>>688517513

>There's nothing WRONG with labor but not owning your own labor is very indignifying

fix'd

>>688517513
you can easily do better than other people. If you're working hard getting a hard education, then you're socially better off than those who do not. You will gain respect from working on things no-one else can and you might have great influence if you end up leader of an orginisation

>>688517513
>You CANNOT "do better" than your fellow man and everything is forcefully shared.
Why can't I do better than my fellow man?
Why would things be forcefully shared?

Let me refer you to >>688515617

>No laws can instill deceny into other people. I wish I had the answer but for now not being a slave cuck will have to do.
We're not trying to instill decency by law. We're trying to give incentives towards decency. Where capitalism creates enormous wealth differences and financially ruined people, the poor will be incentivized to steal.

Communism works even if everyone hates eachother.

Otherwise good post.

>>688517784

Yeah but you can never own a business, own an idea. Communism has to shut out all outside markets because the moment the workers start to buy from outside forces they're undermining their own which is a huge nono and destroys their own community.

>>688514627
we need capitalism for companies to keep making us good and competitive shit. maybe in the future when development stagnates a certain amount a communist society would be the better choice

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>>688517521
The argument you make is in support of small business, not communism. This I support wholeheartedly; I know a lot of people who own a business or work for themselves and it's a great lifestyle if you can get into it.

Not everyone is a leader, though. I am content with my life the way it is despite the gripes I have about underhanded marketing tactics (using fear to sell EVERYTHING,) a preoccupation with consumerism, and (personal issue) the continual barrage of having issues I really don't have an opinion about either way shoved into my face (note: not this discussion.)

>>688518106
why would you want to own a buisness? remember there is no money.
Why cant you coin an idea? If you're referring to intelectual property, then kys.

>>688516148
Wrong the assholes will be making the poo poo

>>688518120
keep in mind that cooperation can be equally as progressive as competition. Also with the coming threat of robots taking half of all jobs, we need to begin thinking of a solution. Socialism would be able to use robots to the fullest, no one would lose there

>>688518219
Communism IS in large 'people owning their own business'. It is the removal of the parasite class called the capitalist class.

Not everyone is a leader. And we don't need leaders. It's a lie we're told so the upper class can keep the fruits of our labor.
By this I don't mean that we don't need administrators, only that this task is not necessarily an authoritative position.

>>688518120
We need communism before technology stagnates. If technology stagnates, it's because our masters no longer have competition and their rule is cemented.

>>688518428

I'd want to make my own business the same reason someone would want to command a ship of plunder.

>1) I can do it competently.
>2) Because I do it smartest, I should be in charge and with a bit extra pay.
>3) There is monies to be made!

This is the typical idea behind capitalism. A leader leading workers into a venture and the leader making some more because he's a leader and a little more competent.

HOWEVER, that whole idea goes down the shitter when it's a CEO making decisions for working class.

If a captain on a ship during a dangerous storm did absolutely NOTHING and let his men do all the work and some of them even died.. guess who's getting mutinied the next morning? As a captain the situation arises (your workers look up to you) to do something A LEADER needs to do.

All of these corporate suits though.. they're so far removed from the natural leader/follower cycle that, no, it is not fair and they should NOT be respected. What kind of bagboy is going to charge corporate HQ and stab a nigger to change things around?

All of this though is only part of my argument. The very fact that common people buy from big monopolies is the real problem here. Big monopolies "own the labor" and they do not own it well. On company schedule, you are rushing to a place to do a skill you could do independently. Again, there's nothing wrong working under anybody but monopolies and their outlets demand a constant schedule, shit pay, a threat to replace you like it's nothing, and to cap everything off they kill off all alternatives through their acquisitions of rivals.. until there are none!

And everyone continues to pay for their slavemasters.. which is why they exist.

That's what needs to change. There wouldn't be criticism against capitalism if it existed in a less corrupt state. Right now a CEO is deciding the fate of hundreds of people without a care for his own safety.

A captain on an old pirate ship would fear mutiny if he was seen as useless and abusive

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>>688519683
Keep dreaming, man. People own NOTHING in a true communist setting. Everything is community property (even your woman...oh, wait...)

I'm getting out of here. There's no point in debating this matter when y'all don't get the concepts in the first place.

>>688520234
Private property =/= personal property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property

>>688520164
This is also a point Marx makes, that capitalism removes us from our natural superior.
The captain that simply owns the ship because he's wealthy is generally a useless captain.

>>688514627
because that's a picture from the nationalist syndicalist wikipedia page, making me a fascist.

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>>688515255

SURE IS SUMMER IN HERE

GRADUATE HIGH SCHOOL FIRST, THEN TALK POLITICS ON /b/

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>>688521627
Wouldn't be the first time nazis stole from socialist aesthetics to gain influence among the confused workers ;')

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Communism is shit
>end of story

>>688521834
nazis were socialists without the jews

good thing imo

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>>688521819
>tfw anarcho-nihilist
You can't argue with spooked nerds about anarchism without getting them to first understand communism.

>>688522222 (checked, faggot)
Nazis were by no means socialists.
Only if you just go by Hitler's definition of socialism, which would just be stupid. (and proving my point)

>>688521232

Yes. You can build your own ship and then rent it out. Nothing wrong with that, right? You built it and have some ownership over your own work, which other people can use from you for a fee, if needed.

In times of bounty, if some exuberant asshole charges too much for his ship, you can easily look around and find another ship to rent or work for. No harm, no foul.

The harm we see today is because:

>1) The same captain or groups of captains buys every fucking ship around and they all make roughly the same rules. They ask for too much and give back too little.

>2) The captains will gladly advise you to "make your own and join us" except that your fellow man is so cheap and treacherous he will always buy from the captains with many ships and shit pay. You cannot really succeed when there is nobody willing to help you succeed against this already established armada.

Monopolies aim to own EVERYTHING and as such there are no alternatives.

Alternatives would exist if people actually were aware or motivated enough to fight for their own freedom. (Like. maybe if I support ships that pay their guys well, all ships will start doing that, which in turn means that the ship I work for pays ME well!)

The only reason capitalism is even a problem is because the ship captains are such utter assholes. And nobody will go against them.

Marxs criticism of capitalism is very true. The communist sides a bit flat though, in my opinion.

I only heard a phrase or two of his in my poli class but "owning your own labor" I definetly got from him. And its true. Comment getting too long though to elaborate.

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>>688522404

quints can't lie, man. kek has ordained this to be true.

However, I will allow you to state your case, as is the law of this land. How were they NOT socialist?

>>688522222
fucking checked

>>688523944
socialism is by denition the workers owning the means of production. Did nazi germany have that?

>>688524194
It had one state (as did USSR) that controlled the means of production, the difference to me is that they didn't trust Jews (who founded communism) or Jewish globalism (capitalism).

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>>688522222
>>688523944
>>688523988

these replies must be true, and if they're not, it doesn't matter

>>688524402
but that is not the workers ownning the means of production.
USSR was not socialist

>>688523412
Really enjoying your posts.

The problem with the ship analogy is that it falls in a somewhat arbitrary category (which is simply also just a good criticism of the destinction between private and personal property).

The thing about the factories (which is always the Marxists favorite example) is that they are stationary and essential to the production of the community. They take up limited land and force the community to work for them to survive.

I completely agree that the communist side of the marxist movement and theory falls short.

You should read Stirner if you havn't. Or check out this thread we're having on the subject.
( infinite chan ) /leftypol/res/713367.html#713484

>>688524402
Hitler privatized more of the industry than the liberal countries of the time.
He took it from the jews and sold/gave it to his buddies.

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>>688524745
the idea was that the workers would have the state, so it wasn't socialist by Marx and Lenin's definitions. However, as stated before, communism was seen as Jewish so to engage in it as such would be against the will of the volk according to Hitler and the ideology of the NSDAP

>>688514627
Gosh no!
Under communism, I could be working 80 hours a week!

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>>688524640
Nothing matters.

>>688525081
to be fair, Germany's economy improved immensely.

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>>688525185
Oh my golly! Wolly my bolly!

>>688519683
>communism is people owning
Nope

>>688525139
the workers would only have the state as long as it is there. In USSR the workers did not own the state and it therefore did not disappear when stability was acvieved

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>>688525228
Yep, that's true in some sense.
It made a huge upswing from all the conquest of property, land and alliances with other current fascist countries.
The capitalists in Nazi Germany were loyal to Hitler because they owed him their power. In time, though, this would be forgotten and you'd end up with something like current China.

>>688514627
Yeah, I got a job I love and I'm paid well.

>>688525579
USSR is not, there is nothing but the people in communism

>>688515328
thats just wrong, its is up to debate actually. in classless society, maybe. before, there absolutely has to be payment.

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>>688525918
So why hasnt a "true" communist country ever emerged? It seems like a utopia. Is it possibly because you cant ever truly get rid of capital, and that certain people will always try to be a leader? Pure Communism doesnt work. It never will until we can have robot slaves

>>688516909

you know, not everyone can have it like you do, but i completely understand that you would like capitalism as you sound like one of the profiteurs.

enjoy your gulag holiday

ITT:

deluded libtards, uneducated workslaves and stupid rightists dont even know the definition of communism

Marx: "Communism is the concrete movement that frees the working class from oppression".

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>>688526373
Communism is by definition classless.
Untill the state has been abolished, it's nothing but a communist movement.

>>688524914

Yeah.

CEOs, politicians, and lawyers are all leeches of a sort in that they participate in making nothing but controlling everything to do with fates of humans.

Sort of necessary I guess but they're a smug lot and I want none of my time, freedom or money to be sucked in by them. Fuck them all.

Humans are very removed from their roots and that's the problem to a lot of shit. So when I see some dyke like kathleen wynne preach about teaching new sexual orientations to kids in school I'm sure glad as fuck that absolutely 0% of any of my money I'm not spending in a store goes to a politician through taxes.

Just thinking about it makes my head feel like fuck.

>>688526751

Which is achieved by dictatorship of the proletariat until the state, as a mean of oppression, will be unnecessary, i know.

Because it will take centuries to achieve that tho, and because you absolutely need money as a trade good before, you cant bluntly say that communism works without money.

>>688526373
but communism is classless and moneyless

>>688526524
working socialism has emerged many times, but most have been steamrolled by some big power and never managed to develop. Even just socialism is better even if it doesn't turn into communism

>>688527155
We are talking about communism not its watered down version friend. Why isnt there a communist utopia right now? Is it because the power gets to the leader's head, or is it because the guy breaking up turds in the sewer gets the same as the guy who is too "sick" to work?

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>>688527129
Centuries might be a stretch. It depends on whether you actually have a worldwide revolution or you end up with the extremely prolonged conflict and cold war of the 20th century.
The biggest problem with the USSR is that the workers of the west didn't manage to organize properly. There was so much worker oppression in the USA, and to a lesser extent in the European countries.
If the Spanish civil war had gone in the favor of the Republicans things might've been very different.

>>688527638
Not him, but interestingly enough, all the people I see on SocMedia sites who are rowdy-bout communism are people who consider themselves "disabled," and have a whole host of "invisible illnesses." I can see why useless people would push for commie rule if the "too sick to work but still gets paid" thing is true.

You'd think that the inability to work would be penalized in a so-called "worker's paradise."

Because quality would drop intensely. Doctors/engineers/teachers/etc would do a shit job for shit pay, then the quality of work goes down and so does the pay they get from government. It then drops down even further as the people get paid less because they do an even shittier job for an even shittier pay.

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>>688528327
Wow yeah quality is so great under capitalism :')

>>688527638
there is no communism today because there is no socialism that have had a chance to develop. Nobody is claiming communism is utopia, ofc is will have problems. The main thing that makes work shitty is the organization of work, that, you will have freedom over under communism. Work doesn't have to be shitty.

>>688528327
lmao wtf

>>688528157
Sadly it isnt. It is about getting what you need no more, no less. Sure you should get out what you put in, but you cant have a society that doesnt take care of its sick or elderly. That wouldnt fly. So mo you have people being forced to b do johs they dont want to despite the fact they were told a different story. Once we can automate certain aspects, i could see communism working

>>688528327
Yep, that's capitalism for ya.

>>688528684
>work doesnt have to be shitty
How do incentivise the shitty work in a communist society? How do you get people to work in sewers, spend countless hours in a factory, wield underwater, etc. When they are guaranteed the same thing that a person studying in university will get? Work isnt ahitty because of the hierarchical system you think is in place, it is shitty because some jobs just suck.

>>688529201
Doing shitty jobs are only shit because the owner of the job wishes for you to have as little aid in doing it to keep profits. Under communism since people want to have people remove shit from the street, they will get aid to do so.

You don't need to work as long either as multiple people easily will be able to tend the same job.

>>688521819
>not seeing the beautiful reference

I wonder how many <18 year olds are in here other than you

>>688529388
No. You arent understanding. Why would i go spend hours in a sewer breaking up turds, if i could spend my time studying?

>>688514627
Because I don't care enough about politics.

I don't know, it ain't so bad if you have a job you enjoy.

FREEEEEEEEEEE
>FREE FALLIN

>>688529201
You don't.
They do the work or gulag.

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Communism is a scam. It is willful slavery to the state and the state will be run by the governing elite. the symbol of communism are tools. a communist is a tool and a useful idiot in the hand of the elite, nothing more.

The soviet union used to spread marxism to create revolutions in independent nations. after the revolution was completed they executed their useful idiots and normalized the situation.

since the fall of the soviet union the marxists acted for a while as zombies without a purpose, during the 90s many of them turned to veganism and fought for animal rights. they were until 2001 totally against globalism and corporatism but after the violent communist and leftist protests at the EU summit in gothenburg 2001 where a riot got out of hand, boulders were thrown at police and a protester was shot the globalists infiltrated and took control of the communist zombies.

The communists are now in favor of globalism and work as slaves for the mega rich who use them as tools to destroy society in the same way as the soviet union used them to prepare their own countries for revolution and invasion by the soviet union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_during_the_EU_summit_in_Gothenburg_2001
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/people/george-soros
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnpCqsXE8g

>>688529729
Which is why the only innovation that has ever come out of communism was related to weapons. There is no carrot in communism, only stick

>>688529201
Basically we would be really incentivised to automate the really shitty jobs. And in the meanwhile, we'd split that burden as equally as we decide. Maybe through doing it an equal amount or by giving some extra benefits to the people doing it.

>>688529650
I don't think commieanon understands that some work will always suck, even if there's no penny-pinching overlord making it worse for you so he can dance on the extra nickels you produce for him.

No amount of "aid" can make shoveling shit not shoveling shit.

>Fucking pinkos, I swear...

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>>688529831
Holy shit all this tinfoil.
/pol/ please stay. You're funny.

>>688529942
What happens when the people dont want to do those jobs? They were promised that in communism they could follow their passion and still live, now you are saying they must help clean up the streets? That isnt what was promised or at least what was preached

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>>688514627
Workers in communist countries worked more than anybody else "for the needs of the many" and all for a bowl of rice, it's a collectivist mentality not an individualist one that seeks the individual freedom from human chains like the wage slavery or the "national duty".

If you want to follow an ideology that wants to put an end at working so much and making life something worth living go search around for post-humanist and automation ideologues.

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>>688530279
>not understanding how businesses work

>>688530120
Right? Delusional

>>688530333
Bohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>I have to clean the streets for an hour instead of working in a factory for 8 hours. THIS IS NOT THE UTOPIA I WAS PROMISEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

If you're so dissatisfied with the situation, you can always go live in the woods :')

>>688530333
communism promises a society in which you as a group decide what needs to be done. People who choses to do the shitty jobs will be greatly respected for doing so. rewards doesn't have to come in the form of money. Having a machine shoveling shit is a thing that would make it not necessary to do so. Communism would embrace automation, a thing that capitalism is not doing and in cases it has only made the labor of workers more meaningless.

>>688530606
>i have to clean up the streets for one hour everyday before going to my job in the factory, i am rewarded for this by getting my daily rations that everyone gets. Thank god capitialism is gone. Now if only the government appointed housing supervisor will come over and rid my residence of pests. Oh wait he is out cleaning the streets as well
Ftfy
Also im just showing you what the useful idiots will be saying once it is implemented

>>688530998
>Btfy
Ftfy

>>688530829
>he thinks respect will motivate people into doing the shitty work
Kek. Also why automate? You have people to do the work, and you dont have to pay them.

>>688530829
capitalism embraces automation because it's cheaper
this gets people fired and is the #1 critisism of capitalism, stop saying stupid things

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>>688530998
Your understanding of communism and socialism is simply astounding!

>>688531398
>my infograph is infallible
Ok kid kek fucking pinkos

>>688530829
>Communism would embrace automation, a thing that capitalism is not doing

That's not true, capitalistic countries (and their companies) are the primary force behind automation. The country more advanced in automation and with more investment and research behind it is Japan, far from being socialist.

>>688531349
Yes, but it often does this in a very destructive manner. Take the enormous oil industry, they've lobbying and sabotaging the electricity industry, electric cars for example. This SHOULD have been a thing a long time ago. Why are we using extremely expensive and limited oil to fuel our cars when we could use the fucking wind or sun?

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>working

NEETdom is not hard work

>>688531216
>you have people to do the work
are you implying there's a government

The situation is this:
There's a small commune of people living their lives. There is also shit in the street. Nobody likes this shit and wants it to be removed. The people of the commune go together to find a solution and if automation is the best choice then that will be implemented.

>>688531503
It simply explains the economic systems in a fashion even a /pol/ack should understand.

>>688531706
Because petrol is a million times more efficient than electricity

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>>688530279
Henry Kissinger predicted that Obama would help create a new world order run by the globalists. Obama is a supposed leftist who support marxist soros funded groups such as la raza and black lives matters. Communists are now tools used by the globalists the same way as the Soviet Union used them as tools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1r-3q9PXoM

"Major donors consider funding Black Lives Matter. The Democracy Alliance was created in 2005 by a handful of major donors, including billionaire financier George Soros and Taco Bell heir Rob McKay to build a permanent infrastructure to advance liberal ideas and causes. Donors are required to donate at least $200,000 a year to recommended groups, and their combined donations to those groups now total more than $500 million."

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814

>>688531810
>again all the information on my infograph is unbiased and 100% infallible
Kek

>>688531536
capitalism uses automation, but what government has been spending big trying to get the workplaces to be automated?

>>688531991
read any book at all

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>>688531398
>communism
>no state or central leadership

kek
thats not how it ever actually happens though

Even Marx said there would have to be some basic state for organization proposes and international communication

>>688530829
Communism wouldn't embrace automation.
It would embrace the concept of automation, and tout it to all the workers while it never actually happens.

It won't happen because automation requires expensive research and development, manufacturing infrastructure and resources.

Why do that when you have a man who can shovel shit for no cost?
Why let the man get disillusioned when you can tell him that "soon" ShitBot 9000 will be doing his job and he can not shovel shit?

Pictures of robots are cheaper than robots, and that's all a communist society would need. The man will always shovel shit.

>>688531752
So there is no centralized authority? Just people going about their lives huh? Than who gives out the food? Who makes sure everything is fair? The people? Kek x1 million

>>688531987
I wish BLM was communist.
Unfortunately, they are just pissed off niggers. A few of them are commies, because you usually develop class consciousness easier when you're opressed.

>>688532104
>and by any book i mean ones with a communist leaning
So youre telling me your inforgraph, that is stylized like ussr propoganda has no leaning or agenda that would put communism in a nice light?

>>688531349
>automaton means fewer workers
>fewer workers means fewer costumers
>fewer costumers means lower profits
>capitalists love lower profits!

>>688532460
>capitalists thinking ahead
>implying this isn't already happening

>>688532435
firstly, I didn't post it.
secondly, the infograph litterally tells you the definition, it doesn't try and create an opinion.

>>688532255
there is no communism and it never will be. it is a scam used by the elite to make you hostile towards your own country. the same goes for black lives matter, the entire group was created to make black people hostile towards their own country. la raza is making people hostile towards their own country. that is marxist tactics to subvert and destabilize a nation. Once any revolutionary has destabilized the country the soviet union would invade and normalize the situation. you need to watch the presentation by former KGB-agent Yuri Bezmenov, he is Jesus to communists telling them it was all a lie.

The true way to live is to consume as little as possible for yourself within any current society and pay it forward to others, not demand that the state use deadly force against innocent people who you have been trained to hate.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yuri+bezmenov

>>688532761
Really?

>>688532250
People give out the food, just like we have seen it in anarchist revolutions. What is this about fairness? I don't see how these things are a problem? They have worked in the past, they work right now.

>>688514627
Do you enjoy being jailed for not wanting to work as a doctor when you make as much money as someone who cleans toilets?

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>>688533364
Why would they just give out the food? Goodness of their hearts? Kek. So people are only assholes in capitalism, but during a communist revolution they become saints? I didnt think you were supposed to drink the bong water

>>688533093
wew wewewewew

>>688533833
there is abundance of food. What reason would they have to keep it if they cannot use it themselves? Abundance of food is not hard to make with modern technology

>>688534083
>there is an abundance of food
Not as much as you seem to think. Also food spoils quickly, so any reserve will be depleted quick. Also we import a shit ton of food. How are we gonna inport food without capital?

>>688514627
>Why aren't you a filthy commie, anon?
I wasn't born in north korea and thank fuck for that.

>>688534531
Food can be produced incredibly easy. Capitalism wants scarcity in food to keep the prices up.
Any commune with enough initial capital would be able to be self sustainable with modern technology even in the fucking desert.

>>688534531
>we
America?
Food spoiling quickly is only an insentive to share it so it won't get wasted and saying it is not possible for America to create it's own food is dumb, ofc it can.
There might be an argument that it is not possible to be as selective when it comes to food if only a certain type of food is available to be produced though. I am unsure and unread about long distance travel under communism so I can't really expand upon that, but as said, even without it everyone could make do.

>>688531996
You are apparently too ignorant to understand how this works.

In capitalism it's the private capital what drives the social and economical development, thus it's private companies the ones investing in automation. In capitalistic countries the government is just a "moderator" or a "mediator" to simplify, and the individual and his private property (like companies) are more free.

But tell me, what communist or socialist country invests or has ever invested in automation? Is Cuba investing in automation? Venezuela? Did the USSR invest in automation?

I think you are pretty young and completely confused about how things work, you follow blindly your ideology becuase they made you believe they are the only ones fighting for "justice" or for "the weak", that's far from true my friend and I just hope one day you realize about it.

>>688535140
No. You are ignorant on food production and on systems of governance.

>>688535315
Im not saying america cant grow food, im saying it cannot produce what we need. And why would a farmer who spent countless hours growing these crops just give them away? Why would he grow any more than he needed? Who would force him to?

>>688535406
wew

>>688535991
>with technology you can grow enough crops in the desert
Wew indeed

>>688535765
>Who would force him to?

The state, of course.

>>688536131
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics

>>688535342
yes, but capitalism is obviously pretty slow at adopting automation. We have working automated cars and is able to automate a whole lot of jobs right now. But for the sake of argument, even if the original argument of mine is completely debunked, communism would still wholeheartedly embrace automation.

>>688535765
That worker wouldn't be forced to do so, but other people would begin growing crops to meet their own demands. People would realize that it is stupid and inefficient only growing crops for themselves so they go together and cooperate to ease the work of both people.

>>688536355
Kek. Again ignorance

>>688536425
How would it ease the work of both people when know one person has to grow crops for two?

>>688535765
Because he is not "a farmer".
He sometimes farms, because:
A: he's been doing it all his life, and this is how he decides to contribute to the commune
B: he decided to volunteer some of his hours in exchange for communal goods
C: The commune has a rule that any member of the commune must take communal hours doing farm work. He decides he wants to live in this commune.
D: Whatever you can think of, buddy :')

>>688536447
wew

>>688536565
Does it take as much energy for one guy with tools to create the food for 100 people as it takes for 100 people to each farm for themselves?

also this
>>688536802

>>688536802
Oh so now instead of countrywide communism, we are now talking about city-state communism. Ok, we are moving goal posts but ok. If someone isnt part of that certain commune, can they still get crops? Their commune has been stricken with a drought, and they cant grow any crops. What happens?

>>688536802
To add:
If he decides he wants to be independent from a commune, he can farm all his life on a plot of land. But he cannot expect any goods from any commune.

>>688514627
yeah man, people under communism work way less and get way more for their work :^)

>>688537136
communism does not have a size. Everything is organized under communes

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>>688514627

>>688537136
When we say communism, we're usually talking about worldwide communism.

When there are still capitalist countries, people will need to organize on a large scale to crush them.

>>688537432
>crush them
comrade this is not necessary unless they threaten

>>688537131
But why must the burden of feeding the group rest solely on this man? If he messes up, noone eats and you have no food for your commune. Where will you get food? how will you procure this food? Also just because he has the tools, doesnt mean he will want to do the job. He was compensated well under capitalism that is why he farmed. Now he has the same stress, but the only compensation he recieves now is respect. Respect isnt repairing his tractor, jeff does that, but jeff has been sick and noone else can because noone else felt the need to learn that skill.

>>688537432
oh, quoting Trotzki :)
How do you suppose to unite the whole world under one ideology?

>>688537560
Capitalism always threatens.

>>688537608


>>688536802

>>688537608
but it doesn't. 10 people cooperate to easily feed these 100 people.
They will want to do this if that is what keeps them in the commune

>>688537339
>>688537432
So a pipe dream? Silly me, i was actually trying to debunk plausible communist scenarios.

>>688537610
I don't. I suppose them to unite under one class. The working class. When all capitalists are crushed, there is no chance of capitalism returning.

>>688537813
elaborate, why are communes not plausible?

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Because I don't want the working people to take all of my money. I employ working people. I have 51 people who work for me in a business that I built from the ground up. I am currently sending people to school also for training, so I can open up another division thats focused on something a little more smart, in terms of technology and employ MORE people.

ITT: college kids who are keen on communism because their professor told them it means the state pays for your iPhone...

>>688537784
>>688537721
So you are actively admitting that you dont understand farming or the labor required? You are saying now that people will do what is best in this society, despite using the rhetoric that capitalism fails because people cant be trusted?

>>688537869
Please tell me who made the biggest profit out of soviet russia

>>688537938
Kek, see you on judgement day :')

>>688537935
Communes are not plausible because for one who controls land usage between communes? Who settles desputes between communes?

>>688538153
Ironically, American capitalists.

>>688538231
>pro communist
>not secular
;)

>43
>selfemployed
>8k/month with 120 employees

yeah, whatever anon

>>688514627
bump
communism is great

>>688538257
Well, who controls disputes between nations under capitalism? The current way of doing it seems really unstable.
And you mostly need to look as to why there are even disputes in the first place. Usually because of scarcity of some kind. Which takes the shape of capitalist exploitation.

>>688538074
farming is tough labor currently, but it is something that people would be willing to pay if that is what keeps them in the commune.

>>688538257
disputes between communes as I understand it will have to be solved between the communes. There is no leader of the commune which greatly lowers conflicts, but yeh they might go fuck eachother up as far as I understand

I have to leave now, genuinely good discussion though. Thank you all.

>>688538339
Figure of speech.
Am 100% materialist.

>>688516212
because unless you produce everything you need yourself you need a medium of exchange as a reward. and if you get what you need regardless of work there is no incentive to work. simple as that.

>>688538313
OK, capitalism is the big baddie.
Now again, who made the biggest profits IN soviet russia.
And then again, who was killed en masse, often ran out of supplies (food, clothing, toilet paper etc.) and had problems getting properly paid?

>>688538639
So scarcity doesnt happen in communism? And what size are these communes? You are comparing them to countries, are we city state, or country sized communes?

>>688538852
The USSR did. The republic that was established on a nation completely ruined by WW1, 2 revolutions, WW2 and American/USSR conflict.

And even then, it wasn't as bad in the USSR as most people make it out to be.

>>688539105
>communism is good just everyone who ever did it did it wrong :(

How's that liberal arts degree working out for you lad?

>>688538926
A commune is as large as the commune wants to be.
Some say that people are most satisfied with roughly 150 people around them, but I imagine that some people will want the good old city life style, and attempt to make it work communally.
It really is a difficult topic, because so far, class conflict has been the main drive of history.

>>688539349
wew

>>688538339
>>688538718
Lol Im materialist too. I can give 2 shits about the working man because the unions want to take more from me each year and I am struglling competing with non union companies. At least my working people that work for me are Union and get paid a good Union wage. Like 85 an hour. So please communists fuck off. Let us blue collar people do our work.

>>688539105
Lysenkoism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

>>688539432
Ok. So communes are ill defined, we will move past it. Who farms or produces food in a city? What if they dont have farm land in their commune space? What if they dont have water access? You are thinking about communism in a society that is agrarian

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>>688539997
Dude, you're probably an okay guy.

But if you decide to work against my interests, there is going to be conflict.
This is exactly what class conflict is, and why you would ultimately also benefit from giving up this stressful life of being in constant battle with both us dirty commies and profit in itself.
You're as much a slave as we are.

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>>688514627
so make a riot
a raid
a ww4

>>688540590
Ahh the communist shows his true form; assimilate or die.

>>688514627
>Why aren't you a filthy commie, anon?
Historically communism has never worked, and it can be argued that communism is an ideal that is responsible for almost as many deaths historically as slavery. Free Market Capitalism is a system provides distribution of power for those who are ambitious enough to seize it. Communism is just a seizing of the war machines by the state (historically those who do not have your well being in mind), and a forced redistribution of the motivation for advancement. In Free Market Capitalism you have the ability to choose those you want to communicate and trade goods, and ideas with. This causes a preferable market of ideas, and goods for those who want to advance civilization.
>Do you enjoy working 40 hours/week?
If l sign and enter into a contract that states my employer can schedule me for 40 hours a week. My signing of that contract holds me to my word that I will work 40 hour work weeks, or I my employment could be terminated. If I wasn't okay with working 40 hour work weeks- why would I enter into that contract?
>Is that how you want the rest of your life to play out?
I want the rest of my life to be deticated to helping people. Not just those who are alive now, but for my children. The future of communism is always dim, and unfulfilling. What I want for mankind is a system that provides an environment that advances the human condition.

>>688540296
>Who farms or produces food in a city?
>>688536802
>What if they dont have farm land in their commune space?
Most places will be able to grow at least something, and if not, it is possible to grow with hydroponics or other soilless farming. What you will need for that is power of some kind, solar, wind, water etc.
If the commune is this pressed for access to resources, then it probably shouldn't exist. Or they could produce something and trade with another commune.
>What if they dont have water access?
Most places have access to water of some kind, even if it has to be sea water that you distillate or rainwater you collect large scale.
Otherwise, again, you can trade for it. It will probably be extremely cheap as destilating sea water can be done almost completely automated on a very large scale.

>>688540925
You just showed your true form. You don't give a shit about your workers because profit pushes you to exploit them.
Well, you push me to remove you.

>>688540903
IMMA TRYIN NIG

>>688542031
>You just showed your true form. You don't give a shit about your workers because profit pushes you to exploit them. Well, you push me to remove you.

Enlighten me as to how employing people voluntarily for an agreed upon wage is exploitation?

>>688540590
no the way i see it even if i gave it up which I wouldnt. I would die trying. Because like I remember working and slaving a menial job, and then learning a trade. A "Brother" saw my struggle and embraced me kept me in his company to not only learn but start my own. My first car was a piece of shit honda. Know what I drive now? Fully loaded Dodge Durango Citadel, and A Lexus ES350. Know why I have those 2 cars? I work hard. I dont want to drive the same fucking car as everyone else. Anybody who tries to make it all the same or take wealth and distribute it will make life boring, and not worth living. No creativity. No black only white.... It will suck dick...

>>688542031
>implying im the guy you responded to
Not that guy anon, but good try at covering up your angst and inability to think without resorting to violencd

>>688542031
that wasnt me. someone speaking on my behalf dude. i care bout my workers.

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>>688514627

>>688514627
Working 40 hours a week would be great if it were a job, i like. Instead, I'm stuck doing menial labor, with ungrateful bosses.

>>688542409
>muh volunteer
What alternatives do they have but let SOMEONE exploit them?
Most new businesses fail, so doing that will likely just put you in debt.

You need to see this from a class perspective.

>>688542938
How about stop being a pleb, and figure out how to make a profit from something you like to do.

>>688543240
That's usually pretty difficult, since what most people enjoy doing rarely creates profit.

Under Capitalism
Man Exploits man
But under Communism
It's the other way round

>>688542980
>You need to see this from a class perspective.

Thanks for completely ignoring my question, so allow me to reiterate-

>is entering into a voluntary contract for employment exploitation?

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>>688530453

>>688525139
grande mi general

>>688543776
If I have no other choice but to starve or take your shitty job, then yes, it is exploitation.

>>688543537
>since what most people enjoy doing rarely creates profit.

How could you even know this?

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>>688544040
From not being a basement dweller my entire life.
People mostly enjoy socializing, sports, videogames, theater, concerts browsing 4chan, fucking, fapping, escaping the missery that is human existence, reading, fighting, pissing on the people they hate, smoke weed, do heroin, take walks in the forests.
You get the picture.

>>688543965
Are you stating that in a free market there would be no aid, or donations for those who are starving? Or that the feeling to help those who are starving and those truly unable to provide a service (disabled, elderly, etc) to mankind for compensation would be completely ignored? I mean it's almost as if communists believe there is no motivation to help others unless you put guns in the hands of the state, and force it. (Oh wait that is exactly what communists do).

>>688544908
We simply want to remove the institutions that make people starve in the first place.
There is no moralizing here, we just want safety in financial security by keeping the fruits of our labor instead of giving it to the capitalist who claims to own the land just because he signed a piece of paper and traded some pieces of paper with some guys in the government.

>>688514883
> every 'job'

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>>688515860
>Those people who get tasked to do so have attained power and acquiring power leads to a lust for more power.
ops u found the problem with communism & fucking true this does not happen anymore today

>>688544834
Allow me to find value in every thing you just described as what "most people" enjoy.

>People mostly enjoy socializing
I mean this goes without saying. The ability to socialize and be heard is a valuable skill that is required in most careers.
>sports
Being physically fit is in demand right now- from personal training to the many careers involved with the sports entertainment industry.
>videogames
Videogame production, and development is hot business right now as well- an estimated 91.5 billion dollars so far this year
>theater
From acting, make up, filming, directing, there are so many jobs here I can't be bothered to list them all.
>concerts
Learning an instrument, busking, being in a bar band, providing music lessons, being a music teacher, being a roadie
>browsing 4chan
The FBI
>fucking
Get involved in the porn industry >fapping
See above
>escaping the missery that is human existence
Your own existence is what you are responsible for. Your misery is no ones reponsibility but your own.
>reading
Audio book recording
>fighting
While I don't agree with the industrial war complex there is a massive government organization dedicated to this.
>pissing on the people they hate
Eh that's just being bitter
>smoke weed
ganjapreneurs, you can make good money clipping buds as well
>do heroin
Could be a drug dealer in a free market
>take walks in the forests.
National park ranger

>You get the picture.

I do- you're a lazy fuck.

>>688546712
Enjoyable post anon, but still missing the point.
Why do it for a profit when we could do it only because we enjoy it and when we enjoy it?
In communism I could be a painter one day, a hunter the next, a weed smoker the third.
I don't want to specialize, I want to do what I like, when I like it.

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>>688546712
top kek
>>688544834
ohhhh son you just got moted

>>688514627
lived under filthy commie,
work all day on govermental potato field,
for stealing govermental property (3 potatos)
been send to gulag 10 years
build canal for ships through frozen forest floor
..with pickax, shovel and bar hands
14 hours a day

>>688547809
Truly tragic.
Many sadness.
Potato was KGB.

>>688545638
>We simply want to remove the institutions that make people starve in the first place.
I love the word institution. It's almost like institutional racism, and how it exists but no one can prove that it does. It makes for a dull argument.
>There is no moralizing here,
You're correct because forcing me to redistribute the wealth I procured by begging thugs with guns to take it is absolutely immoral.
>we just want safety in financial security
We? Who are you speaking for? A world without consequences is chaos. You. Can have financial security now if you make the appropriate decisions.
>by keeping the fruits of our labor instead of giving it to the capitalist who claims to own the land just because he signed a piece of paper and traded some pieces of paper with some guys in the government.
While I agree on your misplaced fiat currency argument (money being just pieces of paper), the trading of land is not done just through government transaction, and do you believe the abusing of land by the government will stop when you give the government more influence over wealth? I mean really? Do you honestly think the any communist country in history gave a fuck about your house- when they wanted to build a base in the same location?

>>688546712
You are missing one key aspect, humans are naturally lazy. It is the truth.

>>688543776
You fucking retard. He answered your question, because a human; an animal is born into this world to be a working slave for a company or something similar. We're not given a chance to live our lives out in the wilderness, minding our own businesses but we're born into this society to literally work for someone else until we die.

>>688547809
lived under filthy cappie,
live all day homeless on governmental street,
for selling weed to friend on governmental property (3 weed)
been send prison 10 years
do many work and get rape and stab in bare asshole
14 hours a day

>>688549041
You have the choice to not work. You also have the choice to face the consequences. You can be self sufficient without entering a voluntary contact of employment. Do you think in a communist society we would not be "slaves"? We would be even more so than, because we do not get the ability to be self sufficient. We must be allowed our ration, and if you think it will be any different than that you are a delusional drug taking fool.

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All the communists I have ever met were borderline psychotic. It takes a truley irrational person to support an economic system that is demonstrably inefficient. Communists don't even realize they're basically the creationists of economics.

>>688549103
>weed
Come on pinko

>>688549470
I'm not the same guy. I'm not defending communism. I'm just stating the fact that whatever we fucking do or what communal system we use, we'll always be born to work for something/someone other than ourselves directly.

>>688548694
The institution is private property.
I doubt you would deny its existense. Or rather, the public's perception of its existense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_property
>You're correct because forcing me to redistribute the wealth I procured by begging thugs with guns to take it is absolutely immoral.
Yup, gibsmedat.
>We? Who are you speaking for?
I'm speaking for myself generally, but in most cases I try to speak for all who identify as communist or anarchist.
We/I want to convince working people that communism is in their interests.
>A world without consequences is chaos.
What?
>You can have financial security now if you make the appropriate decisions.
Right. My decision is remove the capitalists.
>do you believe the abusing of land by the government will stop when you give the government more influence over wealth?
No?

>>688549710
How young are you? You realize you can work for yourself in right now. You can go be self sufficient, and not work for anybody else right now. I know mommy and daddy's rules are a bummer, but get it out of your head that we are mere cattle for someone else.

>>688549913
So you are an anarcho communist? Good luck keeping your society together champ

>>688549591
All libetarians I have ever met were borderline retarded. It takes a truly irrational person to support an economic system that is demonstrably inefficient. Libetarians dont even realize they're the creationists of economics.

>>688549041
>You fucking retard.
Well that's just not true.
>He answered your question, because a human; an animal is born into this world to be a working slave for a company or something similar.

slave
slāv/
nounhistorical
1.a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

You are not a slave if you are not property. You are not a slave if you enter into a voluntary contract, and are compensated for your work. You are not forced to work for any company. You are forced to provide a service for humanity for compensation. Which in of itself provides a preferable living environment for yourself, and your neighbor.

>We're not given a chance to live our lives out in the wilderness, minding our own businesses but we're born into this society to literally work for someone else until we die.
You are born into a society that provides a preferable environment to further your gene pool. Don't squander it on the false grandeur of a society where it is acceptable to not make the world a better place for you, me, your neighbor, and your children.

>>688550262
DANKE
I'll gladly work with stalinists to remove burger though.

>>688550582
Moralists make me sick.
Trying to base economics around fiscal morals is so fucking disgusting.
Stefan fags need to fucking burn.

>>688550706
And i will gladly use my captial i have acquired to purchase items to defeat both of you.

>>688551029
I know. The struggle is eternal, brother :')

>>688550427
Except none of those statements are true (except for maybe libertarians being borderline retarded). Socialism has been proven to be terribly inefficient, time and time again. When the government owns the means of production, there are always shortages and surpluses because it is impossible for the government to accurately predict the needs and wants of consumers. In a capitalistic economy, these means are achieved through the laws of supply and demand, and as long as the markets remain competitive, they generally operate at a efficient level. Since receiving my degree in economics, I have never met a single professor or other student who argued for socialism.

>>688551185
Im not your brother, i value people and their identities where you see them as merely tools and objects to further a collective that you know they will love because you love it.

>>688550979
>Moralists make me sick. Trying to base economics around fiscal morals is so fucking disgusting. Stefan fags need to fucking burn.

Moralists? I mean I believe in a world that is better for me, you, and my children. I guess that is quite disgusting. What the fuck is a stefanfag?

>>688551753
He's right though. There is no place for value-based judgements in science. There is a reason economists avoid making normative statements in economics.

>>688551266
>Except none of those statements are true (except for maybe communists being borderline psychotic). Capitalism has been proven to be terribly inefficient, time and time again. When the private sectors owns the means of production, there is always poverty and surpluses because it is impossible for the private sector to give a fucking shit about its consumers. In a communist economy, these means are achieved through the proper distribution of goods, and as long as the government remains in worker control they generally operate at a efficient level. Since receiving my degree in economics, I have never met a single professor or other student who argued for capitalism.

>>688551516
I'm just trying to trigger you, friendo :)
One day I might be lucky enough to pull a trigger on you :)

>>688552138
Sure thing comrade. But for some reason i feel you will be pulling it on yourself soon, what with being an idiot ;) cheers luv

>>688552381
lol'd
And then it made me sad that I still need to hang you

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>>688552028
Why would you believe so much in something that you can't even defend? There is no "proper" distribution under the government:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_goods_in_the_Soviet_Union

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>>688552028
>Since receiving my degree in economics, I have never met a single professor or other student who argued for capitalism.

>>688552709
Not sure what you're implying with that article.

>>688552694
At least ill be selling you the rope.
Signed
The man on top
P.s. dont kill yourself, you have delusions to live for

Supporters of capitalism who don't inhabit the highest circle of society are the very definition of cuck.

>>688552894
Yep, and all biologists who believe in evolutionary theory are obviously puppets.

>>688553060
>supporters of communism who dont inhabit the highest circle of government are the very definition of cuck

>>688553266
Communist societies don't have government. Try again, wagecuck.

>>688553340
>i truly believe that we can achieve this form of society
Aww so cute when babbys learn to use the interwebs

>>688553017
It details the the system of distribution and economic planning by the Soviet government, and all the problems it had. Many Marxists I know admit that while communism is a less efficient system, that it is a more moral one. I think this is a better argument, but still fundamentally flawed in that it relies on abstract moral reasoning and the belief that an evolved form of capitalism can one day meet the needs of all.

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>>688553046
Join me in my delusions.


Or don't, it wont have mattered anyway.

>>688553507
>I genuinely believe human nature is a constant throughout time.
I bet you think recent evidence showing corporeal punishment results in lower IQ is some kike-ploy to sissify our nation.
Oh well, eye for and eye, retard.

>>688553654
*Cannot meet the needs
Sorry for all the typos, on mobile

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>>688515860
>Communism
>people don't eat, they die.
Now you get the idea