Bump for agreeing

>>688395278

fuck off, nazi cuck

>>688395513
Never actually even said I was either a Fascist or a Nazi. Just said that Fascism isn't inherently evil.

>>688395513
Says the libcuck

>>688395278

I'll take a free society over a fascist one but thanks for playing

heil hitler

>fascism
>racism
why can't we just have both?

>>688395969
Fascism and Freedom aren't mutually exclusive. Just because many historically fascist countries have been oppressive doesn't mean that is the only way to do things.

>>688396180

Don't see an appeal to fascism at all. Throwing other people under the bus allowed the axis powers to rise.

>>688395278

fascism is just another flavor of authoritarianism, of central authority, which seeks to subjugate the individual.. all forms of authoritarianism and subjugation are totally immoral and abhorrent .. the only acceptable social order is one of liberty, a voluntary society is the only moral society.. the subjugation of the individual as a sacrifice for the good of the many is a false promise and even if the means did result in the end sought after, it would still not justify the means.

>>688396389
They were only able to throw others under the bus because of Fascism though. Without it, they would never have been able to become so efficient. Mussolini manages to get the trains to run on time IN ITALY.

>>688395693

fascism is inherently evil. all forms of authoritarianism are evil.. all forms of government are inherently evil.. what is government but the use of force to impose on the free will of individuals, to steal the fruit of their labor and to force them into indentured servitude.. i reject democracy, fascism, socialism, communism, etc.. all of it.. the only society i advocate for is a VOLUNTARY society based upon the NON AGGRESSION PRINCIPLE. all forms of authority are based on aggression and violence as a means of subjugating individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

>>688395278
unfortunately, nazism and its excesses absolutely derailed the eugenics movement and opened up the west to libtard propaganda and colonisation by lesser people and barbarians

now we have dysgenics, muslims and fuckwits from every low-IQ ill-bred backwater on earth flooding in, demanding to be treated like royalty

angela merkel is a moron, paris and london are now 3rd world enclaves and sweden is practically muslim

north america needs trump desperately now, but is his heart really into it or is he just showboating and will wuss out when push comes to shove?

>>688396759
good luck with that.

>>688395278
Italy was still shit under Mussolini, just less obviously shit. Germany was shit under Hitler, just less obviously shit. Germany in particular didn't raise the quality of living very much, as the redirection of resources to rearmament caused shortages, rationing, and production controls years before WW2. Italian Fascism has at its core ethno-nationalism, so even if bigotry isn't a tenet it will inevitably arise due to the creation of a specific "us" but vague "other."

>>688396759
And exactly how do you go about rejecting all forms of government?

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>>688395278
I agree. Unlike other ideologies, fascism attempts to unite the citizens regardless of their socio-economic status. I believe their ability to progress quicker is their ability to be unified. Authoritarianism isn´t bad, if we look back at history, the greatest nations in history are those who had a strong leadership, every time someone says "authoritarian" we instanly assume a figure such as a dictator, but those who were willing to achieve something greater were able to create bigger things.

>>688397660

luck is not required, the majority of human interactions today on the planet are VOLUNTARY.. the force, fraud, theft, and coercion that governments carry out involves less than 10% of the human population actually enforcing such violence for governments. the rest of us sane people do our best to avoid and circumvent government in our daily lives. everyone is a criminal, everyone practices civil disobedience.. the vast majority of people prefer voluntary, peaceful interaction for mutual benefit with others, rather than violence or exploitation. authoritarianism is a delusion, a sickness, a superstition, a dogma that is inevitably doomed to disappear and best lost to history as human society moves past silly outdated superstitions of authority

>>688396705

> They were only able to throw others under the bus because of Fascism though.

Yeah, exactly. Who cares if it makes a country 'work' if it's horrific.

>>688395278
Straighten that collar I'm forcing you to wear. NOW, mister!

What? You think YOU'D be in charge? Hahahaha!

>>688397877

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves."

Henry David Thoreau

you reject unjust authority by refusing to obey. disobedience. general strikes. boycotts. tax protests. general protests. by living as a free individual yourself, making yourself a living example of your principles. if you believe in the non-aggression principle / voluntaryism.. then you uphold those principles in your daily life.. you refrain from aggression and choose peaceful, voluntary interactions with people.. if an aggressor attacks you, then you defend yourself. pretty simple really.

>>688399157
Who wants peace? Peace is boring.

If you're going to have an authoritarian government, go with technocracy. Only the most skilled are given rule and they are only given power over what they are experts on. You lose the freedom to vote, but you don't lose any other civil liberty.

On a side note, how exactly does fascism work in uniting people? I assumed they were only able to do this by giving different groups of people different rights, so that the majority feels the most nationalist therefore sacrificing the most for their country.

>>688395513
Who you calling a cuck, guck!?

>>688399157
voluntaryism wouldn't work with niggers.

manganello e olio di ricino

Doesn't matter whether you're for or against Fascism, I think this thread has been beneficial to us all and has helped us all form opinions. Some may now be more open to fascism, and some may have decided to go against it, but overall it has been good for all of us. If only fascism wasn't so taboo in the first world so we could have debates like this on a national scale.

Fascism isn't inherently evil, like with every other ideology but it is easier to mobilize popular support with certain views. It certainly is usually much more efficient than say a complete democracy but thay depends on what you mean by "efficient". It may not necessarily be efficient at promoting individual freedom or at distributing productivity fairly but it certainly is in terms of production and order. It is absolutely efficient in military terms.

I'd also say there is a more nuanced approach to fascism than is generally had. Capitalism helps fascism thrive and fascism can exist in varying degrees. Thats why Capitalist economies tend to be more successful. Even then one ahould consider how that "success" comes about which also varies. The Soviet Union was much closer to a fascist welfare state and in the early 20th century was amazingly efficient.

The US currently exists in a fascist state IMO. The differences is how the public is controlled to acheive the objectives of the State. It goes from total violent coercion (Soviet Union) to little violent coercion like the US where propoganda and entertainment/distractions are necessary to bypass the effects of completely ignoring public opinion (proven to be essentially inneffective in determining policy) and implement the plans of the principle architects of policy (wealthy capitalists).

Needless to say, it is highly efficient and fuels a powerful war machine. IMO the more fascist societies are the most successful since everything boils down to a threat of force.

>>688400516

you seem to be implying niggers are violent thugs who will go around using violence against everyone... even if that were true, in a voluntary society people would just defend themselves from aggressors, regardless of their race... aka niggers would get shot if they decided to act like thugs, by voluntaryists who were armed and prepared to defend themselves.

>>688401292
It's nice and all, but a voluntary society would fall apart pretty quickly as someone decides to become a monarch of a certain area and then goes about conquering more areas. Sounds pretty fascist actually.

>>688396180
Fascism is a form of authoritarianism, anon. One of the defining characteristics of an authoritarian regime is limited political freedoms.

>>688401292
>you seem to be implying niggers are violent thugs who will go around using violence against everyone

uhhh yeah, I am exactly implying that

> in a voluntary society people would just defend themselves from aggressors

"in a democratic society the police will just arrest niggers and there will be no crime"

Just like in a democratic society, in voluntaryism the threat of niggers will be ever-present.

>>688401292
I'd much rather be protected by a trained police officer than be alone and armed. The aggressors will always have access to better weaponry and will be better at using it. Old people, orphans, and single mothers would also be fucked in a voluntary society, as they would be very easy targets for gangs.

>>688401043

Would also add that there is a varying degree of policy, while top "managers" in a fascist state hold a lot of power, there are competing interests and influences that can determine and change policy. The ideology is important to supress public dissent as much as possible without resorting to violence which has destabilizing effects. The US has a good blend of competing powers and interests that is more stabile than other States. We call it a democracy but it functions as a fascist state since policy is determined by a few and the public is completely ignored. It may sound like a contradiction but the US is a very free country, thats why the methods of control have to be non violent in order to acheive the kind of a
top down control necessary to coordinate the allocation of resources and production. The US has greatly increased this power by delegating power to capital, an important step given the spread of democracy in the US. Should also add that "controlling the public" is not inherently bad either, rather a necessity. The aims of that control are another story.

>>688401292
The idea of a voluntary society is not viable imo because of the volatility of power systems. Libertarianism does not account for human flaws like it claims it does. People form groups, they aim to take.

Even so, a voluntary and free society, would run the problem of not being as efficient in terms of war production and would be destroyed by more aggressive and organized societies. Fascism is necessary to an extent in that sense, though a truly free and voluntary society would be preferable. Many Native American tribes acheived this. While they lacked the kind of inequality and poverty of Western states (peasants and serfs), they did not have the military organization to win. Coercion is required to increase the advancement of technology the way it was in the west.

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>>688401555

lol you fucking idiot.. in a voluntary a lone individual cannot just "decide to become a monarch" .. in a voluntary society if a person declared themselves an authority, everyone would laugh at them and tell them to fuck off.. authoritarians need enforcers, and voluntaryists refuse to be enforcers for authority.

>>688401903

in a voluntary society there will be no government. the government is the largest source of crime, violence, and theft... remove the government, and people actually keep what they earn, the drug war disappears, and war disappears.. sure there will still be crime, but on a much smaller and infrequent scale. people will not have government telling them what tools they can or cannot own, so everyone who wants to be, can and will be well armed and ready to defend themselves.. and individuals will be better able to, since they will have to take personal responsibility for their safety / security .. or hire someone else voluntarily to do it.

a voluntary society doesn't promise a utopia free of crime, it just promises the most minimal amount of violence possible, and the most freedom possible.

>>688402461

you're a fucking clueless imbecile. police officers are poorly trained, and they do NOT protect you. when was the last tiem you had some dipshit with a bade and costume by your side 24/7 as a bodyguard? NEVER? yeah, i thought so. police aren't bodyguards. they respond after crimes happen and write a report. by the time a cop shows up, whatever threat your facing will have killed your cuck faggot ass and left.. since you clearly prefer to be a little bitch yourself who cannot defend himself. only bootlicker brainwashed douchebags abdicate their personal responsibility for their own self defense.. and thing big daddy gobt will protect them.

in a voluntary society, everyone would have access to whatever firearms and training they choose.. the only true security is taking personal responsibility for protecting loved ones

>>688403491

you are making the category error of assuming that a free and voluntary society wouldn't be organized... a free, voluntary society would entail a true free market, which would maximize production and the ability for the society to defend itself if necessary.. a free society is a prosperous society, and a prosperous society has the resources and ability to defend itself. you are mistaking voluntaryism for tribalism.

>>688401043

True, liberalism is lowkey fascism

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>>688395278
https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_fascist_order
we like talking about this subject as well.

>>688396025
Heil Hitler was the leader of the Nazis.

>>688403491
>>688404167

a voluntary society would be highly organized. there would be well equipped local and state militias, national guards, etc.. the only difference would be that instead of a government stealing people's income via taxes, only voluntary organizations for defense would exist.. they might even be private security / contractors.. but they would not be funded via taxation.. you could donate to your local volunteer militia like you donate to your local fire department, and in fact, many places in the US actually already have militias that they voluntarily donate to.

"Facism", just like "racism" are just terms that liberals use to describe anything they don't like. Anytime someone uses one of those two words, that person is immediately and forever an idiot.

>>688398089
Militarism is bad.
Nationalism is stupid.
Authority is inherently corrupt.
>it's 2016 kiddos.fascism sounds fun, sure Watch some football or read some 40k lore to get it out of your system.
Nice flag tho m8

>>688404167
There is no evidence that a free market society would be more efficient r organized. It is because it is not so that it would be less efficient. It may be freer, and depending on the culture it could be safer, but it wouls not be as efficient in terms of production and power as a more planned one. You make the error of assuming that planning must be centralized and that de centralized planning is inherently free from coercion. Even so, I'll bet your "free" society includes property rights.

Also depends on what you mean by voluntary. People don't naturally assume the roles of machines for industry men.

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>>688395278

Pls go watch the german film "Die Welle" (subs are available, before making such retarded comments.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/

>>688404374
Absolutely, the welfare state
can only exist with central control.

>>688404727
Thats an assumption. Groups are always consolidated into larger nations r
with more central control because it is more efficient or because other more organizwd nations conquer them.

The federalist papers concerning the framing of the Constitution address this problem. Furthermore, there is no proof of any of that.

>>688405667
damn phone, all those typos. Hope it makes sense

Fascism didn't work anywhere for more than a decade (except in Spain). How can that be considered a good political system? Those leaders sent their countries to destruction and their best genetics to die. How can somebody defend that? Fascism = megalomaniac that becomes a loooooser

>>688396438
Well, in my opinion we're still living in a world with no liberty at all. it's not the politics, but the economy, the industrial economy. Today we are not citizens, we are consumers that live only to continuously purchase shit and feed the sistem, while this one creates trends and needs that are pointless and expensive for our lives but also seductive.
Now, I'm not a fashist nor a Nazi, but I see that we are still living in a "Distopic" world. The thing is that we dont (want to) see it because it gives us so much comfort. It is like a drug, just like the "National Identity" shit.

>>688405038

there is a great deal of evidence that a free market is more efficient than any "planned" economy... a free market achieves the optimum balance between supply and demand, and individuals are free to utilize their resources in the most effective and efficient way for them locally..

systems of taxation, regardless of the type of government doing the taxing, whether its fascist, socialist, democratic, etc.. all involve the inherent inefficiency of bureaucracy .. "planning" can be decentralized, and in that case, it would be a free market, but all modern systems of government involve central planning of economies, ESPECIALLY fascism...

central planning is absolutely NOT more efficient, it is highly wasteful, stealing from the people so central authority can squander their income for national interests, conquest, war, military industrial complex, and various other state funded bullshit, is about as far from efficient as you can get, not to mention it's immoral because it involves stealing people's income rather than voluntary contributions..

free markets are organized because individual human beings naturally organize into local state and national networks / communities .. people assume that people can't voluntarily organize, despite this having been soundly disproven over and over endlessly throughout history..

those who claim we couldn't organize or defend ourselves in a voluntary society are merely showing how brainwashed and indoctrinated they are to think they NEED authority / government.

>>688405952

we are living in a world that has very little liberty, it's just that people's indentured servitude or slavery has been masked by a more sophisticated and hidden system of enslavement.. you call it capitalism, industrial economy, etc.. but the slavery or bondage that people are currently entangled in cannot exist without authority / government.. the primary source of this bondage is government, the belief and acceptance of authority, and therefor people allowing themselves to be subjugated by taxation... remove that, and the economy will sort itself out as a free market, for the most part. fascism is precisely a central authority intervening and establishing a centrally planned economy, it's central government authority in bed with corporations and big banks.. in the united states what we have now has been sliding ever deeper into socialism and fascist tendencies, and away from any form of real liberty...

>>688395278
Dear OP, you know where Mussolini's/Hitler's economic miralce comes from? Weapons mass production and authoritarianism. The first one gives tons and tons of work place to the people, but of you dont spend this kind of production in wars and territorial expansion, you are wrekt. So the "endless war plan" has always been part of Fashism as we know it.
And the authoritarianism needs a population that think just like his goverment. So propaganda, political imprisonment/homicide and concentration camps/gulags ae the most efficent and obvious answer.
That Said, I think that every political view is worth if it is applied in a coherent and "slow phase" way.

>>688406523
Please name me one example of a free market. I will predict however your defense once it is proven ro not be so. You will claim that the presence of a coercive State does not disprove the theory. You will then cite an example of a "free market" Nation that heavily used its system of taxation to subsidize industries and acquire resources then distributed to industry men. You will then claim that free market theory is proven by the fact that the freer the market the better. You will then fail to cite a proof of this process.

It is possible to de centralize planning, that does not mean that it is totally decentralized. The US for example has and always has had a central planning as it does to this day where the State responds to a small group of people and resources are controlled by an ever shrinking group of capitalists. This is mot totally centralized but power is still remarkably centralised. There are different kinds of planning, varying degrees of control. of your theory on taxation were true, then why do the most powerful nations on earth have them?

>>688404819
How does one become an idiot for using the words racism or fascism? They both exist. Not everything is "liberal agenda". You far right idiots need to get your heads out of your asses.

>>688395278
Facism tends to use violence against groups of ppl who desagree with them, tends to manipulate/hide information, tends to reach a point that some people literaly have no place in the facist country, in case of Hitlers Germany, the government choose to kill every jew instead of just exile them.

I think thats a strong con side.

>>688408061
The words have morphed into "anything liberals don't like". Racism is actually a combination of the words race and realism. Nothing insulting or bad about that. And fascism is also an insult thrown out meaning "bad, authoritarian person"....while imposing their own authoritarianism upon everyone else. Get your head out of your ass, nigger, and use your head for something besides a place to store shit.

>>688407456
I think that a facist government must mass product weapons to work, every government can have their own strategy to make economy works.

>>688406523
I am not placing a moral value on this. A truly free market, that meet the conditions described would be preferable. Its why militarys are centralised. I'm not saying that in principle, the more centralization the better, or thay the outcomes are desireable, rather that the means of controlling production tend to be more efficient in terms of being a powerful nation. That is not a moral judgement More importantly, the planning comes from coercive institutions and power systems that influence national and international policy, it is naive to focus on some monolithic "government" If you think faacism is innefficient then just look at Nazi Germany, went from hyper inflation to industrial powerhouse within 15 years, how does that compare to the liberalized markets of poor capitalist institutions?

>>688406523
What you are calling a "free market" has never existed precisely for the reasons I mentioned. Such a society would be preferably but sadly not viable today. That would require a change, a second "enlightment", something too advanced for todays societies since it would not compete.

If you dont believe me then believe the framers of the contitution. One of their big arguments was that "centralising" power to a federal government would create a stronger nation. If they believed what you say, they would have stuck with the articles of confederation.

>>688407905

you seem to have latched onto the idea of a "free market" and are focusing solely on that. which is not really the most important aspect of it. some people call themselves anarcho-capitalists. i am not such a person. i am not really invested in any sort of market economy ideal, other than the notion that all human interactions should be voluntary... if i live in a voluntary society i don't really care if it's a commune or one which is capitalist, as long as human interactions are peaceful and voluntary and people's needs are being met.

there hasn't been a free market in recent history because a true free market cannot exist so long as a coercive state is intervening in the economy.. we can't have a TRUE free market with a central bank, nor with a central, federal government regulating it, nor with a central government taxing that economy.. period. however there ARE black markets which i would consider true representations of a free market.. maybe you could use silk road as an example.. it existed totally outside of law or regulation, and used a decentralized currency ( bitcoin ) .. in a true free market we could have much larger scale markets like silk road.. and there would be no government attempting to crack down on them.. but again that is really rather missing the point.

the deeper point is philosophical, and it is moral.. only a voluntary society is moral. advocating for any other system is to advocate for violence.. so should be unacceptable to any decent person.

>>688408576
Ok, but my point is that fascism "as we know it" implies war.

>>688409339

read the federalists.. the founders for the most part framed the constitution with the intent to LIMIT the central, federal government.. but also felt it necessary to create a union of the states .. how i feel about the constitution agrees with this sentiment:

“But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”

― Lysander Spooner, No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority

i advocate for natural rights, as we see enumerated in the bill of rights, but i clearly disagree with such things the constitution claims to authorize, such as granting the federal government "authority" to enforce import / export / excise taxes.. since i am clearly arguing that ANY and ALL taxes are immoral.. the US constitution and bill of rights is important and useful to an extent, especially the bill of rights imo, but it is far from perfect or ideal.. it is still a document claiming to establish authority.. an attempt at a self limiting authoritarianism... that has obviously failed to reign itself in / prevent that very authority / central power from becoming tyrannical itself.

for me we cannot divorce these issues from MORALITY .. any society we create MUST be based on MORAL and JUST principles, or it will inevitably fall back into despotism and tyranny and collapse again, repeating the same old cycle....

>>688409368
I dont disagree with the moral aspect, as I have said "efficiency" can mean a lot of things, today, "efficient" means competitive in War since the current social order hinges on coercion and we are lucky if we get the nice coercive state rather than the mean coercive state. I don't believe humans are capable oftruly voluntary societies in a larger sense, so I didnt consider casting a moral judgement on the imaginary idea

>>688408624

temporary industry that is established by authoritarian regimes in war time is totally unsustainable and is no measure of economic health or benefit.. it is a matter of desperation .. the people of germany certainly did not benefit from hitler or hitlers attempt to conquer neighbors.. it was a short lived war industry that only resulted in a deeper economic ruin and collapse, and millions of lives lost.. how you can call that some sort of positive industry / growth / economy is beyond me.. you have to be severely deluded / psychotic to see it in any positive light or as some proof that fascist military empire is somehow a viable economic model.

>>688407061
Good point anon. In my opinion government is part of this system, but it's not the one who controls it. Today's economy is more globalized than ever, and a national government can't controll it all. In my opinion, a greater control lies in international banks or others istitutions have the control of international massive money/resources flows

>>688395278
The only reason Hitler was able to conquer unemployment and provide jobs to the people was because the guy stopped a million Jews from holding the jobs they already had, he took their businesses away and gave them to non-jews and he then had them all killed. It's easy to provide jobs when you kill the people who used to work at those jobs.

>>688410591

humans are obviously capable of voluntary societies, because the vast majority of human interactions day to day, all over the planet, are voluntary and peaceful, BY CHOICE, and IN SPITE of the small percentage of tyrant who attempt to rule over said people... human beings today prefer and choose peaceful, voluntary interactions day to day.. we mostly interact with others peacefully, voluntarily.. in our day to day lives, and it is only a small subset of interactions, mostly those carried out at behest of the state, which involve aggression or the initiation of violence.. in my eyes the daily activity of human beings proves that we are capable of and ready for voluntary societies, and that the governments we have are vistiges of past ignorance that are slowly being thrown off and seen as the useless and destructive cancer that they are..

>>688410274
Thats nonsense. The federal government became much more powerful since the adoption of the constitution. Its a major feat of propaganda to consider the way you have. Congress had less power before than after. The federal governments ability to tax and suppress insurrection increased after the adoption. Get past the bullshit rhetoric. The "limits" were placed after increasing federal power. The men who signed it had interests in its adoption. The federalists are even transparent about this, get past the rheroric. Read the anti federalists who even predicted a civil war.

>>688411264

you don't seem to have read or understood anything i said.. no shit the constitution made the fed gov't more powerful.. it established it.. i am not advocating for the constitution nor do i have an illusion that it truly limits the federal government from growing tyrannical.. what i meant to say was read the federalist papers..

>>688411264

as far as i am concerned, we should abolish the federal government entirely.. as well as any and all authoritarian governments, whether state or local, that steal our resources via taxation, or attempt to use violence or coercion to control us. period.

>>688401672
It may be a symptom of it but to to hold absolutely any notion of a future authoritarian/totalitarian regime having relaxed civil laws in contempt is stupid.

>>688410658
First, the aims are seperate from the method of planning, I have no idea how you cannot see this. First, the industries were not temporary, most predated hitler and were beginning to centralize by forming federations and cartels. The Nazis took control of them later, not without the explicit involvement of the top managers. Nazi germany even ran Ford plants. The method of production was efficient.

Secondly, Nazi aims are what caused the ruin, not the production methods.

Thirdly, exploited labor is efficient, American capitalism to this day relies on it, the difference being that Germany houses its slaves whereas Apple and Samsung outsource theirs.

If you have been following what I say then I am talking about aspects of fascism and how fascist methods exist everywhere not just in Nazi Germany.

Again, efficient in terms of PRODUCING FOR WAR OR EXCESS, not efficient in terms of producing humane outcomes.

>>688411237
Government powers are not being thrown off. Government power is being delegated to private capital. What you do may be voluntary, but your choices are not as they exist within the involuntary framework of social order. Some people accept this, maybe they have a cushy job they dont really like but it pays welland they live comfortably. Maybe you would rather spend your time reading but you grew up poor and must attend college to get a job you dont like for hours you cant stand because working less and not going to college is counterproductive to a tolerable life. Your options exist within the framework provided. The average man probably is ready, but power does not care about the will of average men.

Starting fascist kik group send kik names

>>688411602
Oh I see, you're right. IMO, the founding fathers found a stable blend of control and "democracy". Of course it had nothing to do with "good" but with uniting powerful men, leaders of industries and finance to form one body. The democratic aspect existing within that government was a few people aka "The Wealth of the nation". Even totalitarian governments have advisors and other men. This was hardly democratic, just a means of control with sprinkles on top

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Fascists are submissive little faggots who don't want any control over their lives or what their money is spent on.

>>688412768

it is entirely possible to live outside of the "framework of social order" merely by being disobedient. break the fucking law. do what you consider right, even if it is illegal.. many people live this way, many people earn a living in the black market, don't pay taxes, don't consent to or advocate for the prevailing order, in fact they are actively opposing it, but doing so subversively... and that is how i choose to live, as much as possible.. and how anyone who is free in mind and spirit, should live, imo.