stfu and stop baiting OP for once pls

god damn

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>>685083768
its proof not bait

>>685082178
Kill yourself nigger

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>>685084376
facts are too scary for the lil' liberal?

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Debate me

>>685082178
Communism is associated with a plethora of human rights issues. Also, most first world countries would experience mass uprisings against many of the less palatable tenets of communism.

tl;dr communism only works with direct oppression

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>>685082178
i see the problem with capitalism, but i dont think the right solution would be a socialist/communist state. Tigther controll of the ruling class is helped by technology, like smartphones, the internet or paypass. If you want to free yourelf and your sisters and brothers from effective slavery, the right way (imo) is a movement rejecting the accelerating progress of technology. Go out to the woods, cut your creditcard in half, stomp your phone and live free

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>>685085488
>human rights issues
Communism hasn't been established, the working class was defeated in 1921

>the less palatable tenets of communism
What, pray tell, to you think those are?

>>685085626
>socialist/communist state
that is an oxymoron, as long as the state exists it exists purely out of necessity and is in fact an obstacle to socialism.
>the rest
The growth of the productive forces is what makes it possible to escape class society. "Living free" is the opposite of rejecting all progress humanity has made.

>>685084046
Wtf where is the x and y you fag

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How's it working out in Venezuela?

>>685086847
>>685085626
For the first part, i totally agree. But for the second part, all this progress lead humanity to overpopulate, sucking out any and all resources this earth may provide. When i hear about NASA, or scientist talking about colonizing mars id like to just rip my own head off. Technology provides a thighter controll of the population on both mental and material levels. When did humanity became the locusts of our planet?

Capitalism, responsible for 2 billion people rising out from poverty in the last 50 years.

Communism, responsible for the deaths of over 94 million in the 20th century.

Capitalism is why you're able to sit here and type this bullshit today, if you want to be a commie move to NK, you like pure socialism move to Venezuela. Either way it'll be the last we hear from your faggot ass.

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>>685087275
cause there aren't lines where x or y = 0, you can't understand the chart?

>>685087527
Poverty statistics are shit, even many bourgeois economists will admit that.

$1.25 is far below what is needed to reproduce the worker, not just a little below

>>685087690
>overpopulate, sucking out any and all resources this earth may provide

this a result of capitalist social relations,

a planned economy wouldn't have this problem

>>685082178
either stick em on a hemp farm or kill em if tech can do the industrial scale farming/mining

i mean either outright or through reduced breeding numbers of wide spread specific demographics

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>>685087907
how about reading the thread?

>>685086847
Thought I'd chime in. I've already debated you Marxist fucks on the Internet, I'm fairly certain you're wrong and your ideology is utter shit after I read the communist manifesto and that's only been confirmed deeper by talking to you guys. I don't want your shit ideology to run my life. It doesn't even sound nice in theory and it looks like a nightmare in practice. And you guys are in absolute denial about every single one of communisms failures always saying "communism never existed so let's try it again this time correctly" when every single transition state that tried it ended up a dystopian shit show, maybe it would occur to you that there might be a pattern there? That maybe that transition state is awful and bloody and it leads to a pretend land utopia that didn't exist in the past and won't ever exist in the future? Marx wanted to bring man back to his "natural" state of human cooperation long before civilization fully developed, he thought it would be a utopia. Thing is though, that period of human history was really awful too. We lived like animals and were poorer than the poorest people on earth today. If we're really talking about what's great for the masses of people it's capitalism, which raised the world from the standard of subsistence living of the common to a standard of what would have been royal luxury to our ancestors.

theres simply to much variance in human interaction to implement communism on a large scale let alone industrial basis

organised work camps is one thing if u wanted to bring a controlled group of niggers up to the stage but ud have to shut down the presses (print it on hemp)

>>685088273
Suck my cock. These statistics are shit, people died of famine and starvation from the total economic failure of communism, that doesn't happen with capitalism. And here you just took a list of death, a lot of these things aren't even related to capitalism. You have an embargo for Christ's sake, capitalism is about free markets and voluntary exchange of goods and services and someone put the deaths caused by a restriction of trade on a list about death caused by capitalism. Maybe you just don't get it? Somebody never taught you economics did they?

>>685088124
>>685087690

well i dont know man, greed seems to be a trait of a planned economy as well. You provide some answers for truely fascinating questions, tho your answers are based on a non-existing (yet anyway) utopia. I live in a post-socialist country, and however well planned, that system had its vital flaws too, most of them were based on human error/malice. Those who 'plan' the economy become more powerful then the rest, and powers like this tend to corrupt the best of men.

>>685088124
hahahhqahahahah
Nice autism buddy
>HUR DUR ALL OF THESE COMMUNIST TOTALITARIAN AFRICAN STATES, AND ISLAMIC TERRORIST RAN NATIONS, AND POOR PSEUDO CAPITALIST COUNTRIES ARE ALL THE FAULT OF CAPITALISM AND NOT COMMUNISM AT ALL!!

IT'S NOT LIKE STALIN EVER TRIED TO FUCK UP THOSE COUNTRIES BEFORE...

Also we don't need to mine african pits to get sand for glass you retard, neither do we need middle eastern oil, and it's not imperialism if they sell it to us.

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OP I want to know what you think of Marx and his contribution to communism. Also what is the difference between socialism and communism? Your answers will help me to understand where you are coming from.

I agree with your "workers fucked in capitalism" message. It is obvious to someone who understands the monetary system (and possesses logic - SUPER rare in these times) that capitalism is a game of musical chairs.

But seriously, the powers that be who are fucking this world seven ways from Sunday are going to fuck over a new economic/political system just as hard. Was it Eric Arthur Blair who said absolute power corrupts absolutely? The forces that run this world are too powerful, especially when 90% of people are far too distracted/divided to effect real change.

The only real solution is an hero.

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>>685082178
Excellent thread, comrade. Victory to the people's revolution!

>>685090032
That isn't slavery you retard, and slavery isn't a part of capitalism.

Slavery is when you own 100% of someone like when the communist government owns 100% of you.

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>>685088571
the USSR was a transition to capitalism

the international communist revolution was defeated by 1921

there has never been another one

>Marx wanted to bring man back to his "natural" state of human cooperation long before civilization fully developed, he thought it would be a utopia.
And, he showed dialectically how it is inevitable after a certain amount of productive development
>Thing is though, that period of human history was really awful too.
Wrong
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways

>We lived like animals and were poorer than the poorest people on earth today.
Wrong:
https://libcom.org/history/hunter-gatherers-mythology-market-john-gowdy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta_-iXuyzlc

Want to keep going?

Liberals and conservatives will get BTFO once actual material facts are brought into the picture

>theres simply to much variance in human interaction to implement communism on a large
Human action is determined by material circumstances

>>685088962
>failure of communism
read the fucking thread dumbass

> capitalism is about free markets and voluntary exchange of goods and services
An abstraction completely divorced from reality,
You turn an actual mode of production, the actual way we relate to each other in the bourgeois period into an idealist imaginary tautology. You have no justification for abstracting away the material facts of capitalism (state, law, regulations) and what it necessarily requires (regulation, imperialism, etc.).

>economics
Kek, neoclassical economics are the most hilariously circular, detached from reality, bullshit possible.

>>685090574
That dude is retarded though..
CLEARLY WITH MY USELESS NEVER HAD A JOB OR POLITICAL SEAT ASS I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE PEOPLE WHO CHOICE A LEADER THAT REPRESENTS THEM ARE OPPRESSED WHEN COMPARED TO THE ONES WHO DON'T GET TO CHOOSE, OR HAVE A VOICE.

>>685082178
Proletarians all over the wotld unite to fight the oppression l.
Even tho you are a commie and i'm an anarchist.

>>685090601
>read the fucking thread dumbass
What does that mean you autistic newfag?

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>>685082178

>>685091082

Jesus christ man. What is wrong with your eyes?

There are only two types.
a Tyranny, and a system where the subjects have been deluded into thinking it's not.

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>>685090253
>Slavery is when you own 100% of someone

That is what the picture states, you are splitting hairs.

> like when the communist government owns 100% of you.

OP this is what I meant by distracted. Poster doesn't even know what communism is.

>>685091383
Yeah, Communism is this wonderful ideology that's perfect in every way, and every time it's been practiced in the past wasn't "true" communism
Eat a dick you Marxist piece of shit

>>685090253
or the decisions you let someone else make on your behalf and their resultant responsibility of consequence(s)

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>>685090944
Except these threads always demonstrate that the anti-communists are perpetually screaming, ignorant people who live by an irrational faith in the American mythology but lack even a basic understanding of the ideas they criticize (e.g. a communist society is classless, stateless, and self-organizing through the natural will of the people - it is not a government that owns everything and enslaves its people). Meanwhile, the socialists always seem to be well-read, intelligent, and make good arguments that are immediately ignored by their emotional, irrational conversational partners, who invariably run down the same, tired laundry list of nonsensical excuses as to why their economic privilege must remain intact until the end of time.

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>>685091336
I agree with this. I wish I knew this person in real life.

I don't love communism and don't hate capitalism but it doesn't take rocket appliances to figure out that the world is in a bad spot (and I believe most world problems are directly or indirectly caused by the monetary system/policy).

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>>685091673
I got this poster salty, do I win a prize?

I have not advocated communism, more like said capitalism isn't working. Also I am not OP.

>>685091673
>Yeah, Communism is this wonderful ideology that's perfect in every way, and every time it's been practiced in the past wasn't "true" communism

You seem to have confused our ideas about socialism with your religious faith in capitalism.

>>685092122
>capitalism isn't working.
Horseshit
Flawed?
Definitely
Flat out not working?
That's a bit too bold a statement
>Also I am not OP.
You're as much of a faggot as he is

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>>685089727
>seems to be a trait of a planned economy as well
to a planned capitalist economy, sure.

> tho your answers are based on a non-existing (yet anyway) utopia
Am I the utopian for engaging in a scientific study of human development and then basing theory based on that, or is the liberal the utopian for simply wishing that president x or reform y will fundamentally change anything.

> I live in a post-socialist country, and however well planned, that system had its vital flaws too, most of them were based on human error/malice
the stalinist countries were the furthest thing from socialism

>>685090032
Marx discovered the historical tasks of the proletariat from a scientific perspective and paved the way for future revolutionaries to scientifically study human development from the perspective of the only progressive force, the proletariat.

Socialism and communism are the same thing. They were split by Lenin for polemical purposes and then butchered by the stalinists to attempt to justify the USSR with quotes from lenin.

I am what is called a "left communist"

>But seriously, the powers that be who are fucking this world seven ways from Sunday are going to fuck over a new economic/political system just as hard.
In communism no one has "power" over others., it is the abolition of politics and the reintegration of labor into the rest of life.

>The only real solution is an hero.
The only answer to the working classes problems is its own power. It can't give power to anyone else.

the workers can not put their faith in extraordinary people, just themselves!

>>685090999
The real divide is between the supposed "marxists" who advocate seizing the state and the real marxists who understand that the state is bourgeois.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qn4W_5v1zQ

>>685091336
99% of human history disagrees with you

>>685084719
>china
>capitalism
>implying a stable system of government/economic prosperity

> OP praises communism
> can't tell what communism actually is
of course you can't because it is nothing more than a vague idea that looks fun on paper

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>>685092325

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>>685092325
I agree with you to a point. It is "working" in the sense that humanity is not extinct, but you must be seriously sheltered to believe that what we have is "working".

http://www.wfp.org/hunger/stats

Yet Trump makes 10 000x (250 million/year) what many people in the states make (25k/year)

And Trumps wealth is nothing compared to the people who actually run this world.

>>685090601
What do you consider to be all of the self proclaimed communist states that formed after 1921 to be in the case that and Revolution was defeated by that year? I at the moment only see the USSR to be a transition to capitalism because it failed, I don't know what you mean by that. What would a successful communist revolution look like since we've never had the opportunity to see one? And ultimately we are materially wealthier than our hunter gatherer ancestors and any existing hunger gatherer society today, how would you expect humanity to maintain its living standards while adopting a communal lifestyle when nothing of the sort has been successful to my knowledge?

>>685092799
Communism is the theoretical end-point of the Marxist conception of socialism, in which the state is no longer necessary and class distinctions have entirely disappeared. It is not the normal operation of a socialist nation, but the ultimate goal towards which a socialist society seeks to develop.

There are volumes and volumes of thought on how socialist societies might be organized, but you just haven't bothered to read any of it. And there is a good reason why socialists don't normally seek to impose a specific, detailed implementation of socialism on society - they want to see the people rule, not have a new form of rule imposed on the people from the top down. That's not really a fair criticism anyway - did John Locke and Adam Smith describe the exact operation of liberal, bourgeois society in great detail before the overthrow of feudal society? There is, perhaps, more theory about socialism today than there was about capitalism in the 18th century.

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>>685092729
even most bourgeois media will admit that china is capitalist

capitalism =/= muh imaginary free markets
capitalism = a mode of production based on the generalization of commodity production based on the commodification of labour power and is dominated by capital (value in self-expansion)

>>685092799
communism is the material human community, a mode of production without property and instead with transparent intelligible social relations based on the transcendence of abstract labor (the essence of value)

Communism doesn't require extra-human amounts of empathy, etc. It is based on the alignment of people's material interests.

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>>685082178
I can't fucking wait for you commie cock suckers to try a revolution so we can finally FINALLY cleanse your filth off the planet.

Fuck off and die you selfish greedy commie cunts.

>>685093425
And that's not even mentioning the future of our civilization under capitalism. Our economic system is tremendously wasteful and uses raw materials at a completely unsustainable rate. Unnecessary suffering, wasted potential, and injustice aside, we will suffer a catastrophic ecological collapse if we do not have a revolutionary transition to a democratic, socialist economic system very soon.

>>685093867
Only in the United States could someone believe that an opinion based on this level of ignorance could possibly have any value whatsoever.

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>op is only able to spread his lies by using miracles of capitalism: a computer and the internet

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>>685094171

>>685091319
What part of this whole thread do you want me to see you little stupid commie?
>>685091383
It said when it owns 99% of your production, not 100% of you.
The communist government does own you faggot, they can push you into what ever job they want, and cut any option they don't want you to have because they own all the jobs!

>OP this is what I meant by distracted. Poster doesn't even know what communism is.
wew nice job samefag.

>>685091819
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU LITTLE AUTISTIC RUNT, YOU AREN'T EVEN LISTEN TO ME, YOU ARE JUST REPLYING WITH COPY PASTE BULLSHIT.
Also it's more like
the anti-capitlists are perpetually screaming, ignorant children who live by an irrational faith in the Marx "mythology" but lack even a basic understanding of the ideas they criticize, or believe in.

Communism isn't stateless because that is impossible, you can't remove the state, or currency, currency are just paper or metal IOUs, and as long as trade exists so does the possibility of currency.

The world will always have classes, the iron worker is bellow the soldier, and the soldier bellow the general and general bellow the leader, and other politicians, and if classes don't exist why wouldn't even just become a secretary, or something easy? Why would they ever pick a hard job if they all gave out the same?

>self-organizing through the natural will of the people
The natural will of the people is to be the best you can be, I've never seen a lion sharing 100% equally without any pack leaders. It isn't in our nature to not attempt to become superior, or what is the point of even evolving out of being a one celled protozoa.

it is not a government that owns everything and enslaves its people
Oh yeah because everyone can trust everyone else with everything without the government, no government to sort things out, just every man for himself. I love it.

Meanwhile, the socialists always seem to be un-read, moronic, ignorant, pseudo intellectuals who know jack shit.

>>685094255
Oh, no. Not at all. He is only able to spread his ideas through written language, the miraculous technology developed by agrarian societies. Clearly this proves that the ancient agrarianism and its primarily gift economy is the greatest economic system of all time.

ITT: There is only a few possible solutions to the issues we commonly face therefore we must not create another system but constantly refer to older systems that have failed or are currently failing to solve our issues as a society.

Good job dummies.

>>685093813
not a single one of your evidential findings are any bit proven or factual

you are throwing up entire walls of literal horseshit and text to hid your weakened strawman of an excusable argument

stop hiding behind all of these veiled, falsified statements and make a real stand for communist ideals you fucking pussy

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>>685082178

>Russia tries communism turns into dictatorship
>China tries communism turns into dictatorship
>North Korea tries communism turns into dictatorship
>Cuba tries communism turns into dictatorship

But I'm sure it'll work this time guys!

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>>685094476

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>>685093867
this

>>685094401
Except that's precisely what socialism is not. See >>685091819

In socialism, the people as a whole control economic power. In capitalism, a few individuals can gain control over the vast majority of society's economic power, allowing them to form a ruling class that can manipulate and corrupt the political system to serve their interests. Socialism is democratic to its core, but capitalism is fundamentally authoritarian in its economic substructure. That's why capitalist societies always develop extremely corrupt political systems - even if they try to be ostensibly "democratic".

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>>685093526
>What do you consider to be all of the self proclaimed communist states that formed after 1921 to be
A transition from feudalism to capitalism in the epoch of state capitalism.

>I at the moment only see the USSR to be a transition to capitalism because it failed, I don't know what you mean by that.
The revolution in russia was a capitalist revolution, and the Bolsheviks were aware of that, but it needed to be led by the proletariat, as the bourgeoisie was impotent. The hope was that the the revolution in Russia would kick off a revolution in the rest of the world (especially europe), which would give them the productive forces and social support to skip capitalism. It was the failure of the international revolution which led to the destruction of the proletarian state and its replacement by a monstrous, bureaucratic, bourgeois state.

>What would a successful communist revolution look like since we've never had the opportunity to see one?
a little like pic related

>how would you expect humanity to maintain its living standards while adopting a communal lifestyle when nothing of the sort has been successful to my knowledge?
It is based on the development of the productive forces provided by capitalism, but different social relations, where production is done socially and in accordance with a common plan, and distribution is done according to need.

>>685093650
>Communism is the theoretical end-point of the Marxist conception of socialism
Fuck off Leninist.

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>>685094947
>guise, you're all being so stupid! SO FUCKING STUPID!
>don't you understand that THIS TIME we'll do socialism right!

Fuck off and die with your no-true-scottsman bullshit

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>>685092615
>>685089727
i wont get into definitions of capitalism, or planned economy. And yes you're posting about utopia wich is allright, and no i dont belive in representary democracy. For the last part, if what we are talking about here isnt utopic, please point me to a flawlessly working industrialized proletarian community.
>im not even mad, i just dont agree with you

>>685094171
>HUR DUR ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES THE COUNTRY THAT HAS FUCKING RAN THE WHOLE WORLD UP INTO SPACE, THE INTERNET, CELL PHONES, MODERN WEAPONRY, MODERN MEDICINE, AND AFFORDABLE LUXURIES LIKE SOFT BEDS AND CLOTHES, AND CARS!! COULD SOMEONE BELIEVE THAT BLA BLA BLA YOU'RE IGNORANT OF MY IGNORANCE OF HISTORY, ECONOMICS, PSYCHOLOGY, AND GOVERNMENT.

>>685095145
I like that image, because communism has so many more choices, and such more free thinkers like....... that guy too busy working to write, or paint ,or anything else.

>>685095145
>claims to hate greedy corps
>wants others to work to pay for his shit
>claims to despise and be better than materialism
>spends all his time whining about how other people have more money and stuff than him

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>>685095145

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DEATH TO LEFTISTS

DEATH TO STATISTS

DEATH TO COMMUNISTS

DEATH TO SOCIALISTS

DEATH TO SELF-RIGHTEOUS AUTHORITARIAN SHIT RAGS BY WHATEVER NAME

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>>685095390
only the 4th is wrong, the other three are 100% true. I have a lot of stuff and im humble about it

>>685094597
I don't have to use pasta because I can write and think for myself.

>the anti-capitlists are perpetually screaming, ignorant children who live by an irrational faith in the Marx "mythology"

Do you know what "anti" means?

>Communism isn't stateless because that is impossible

That doesn't follow. Your claim that something is impossible doesn't have anything to do whether this is the stated intention of communism. In particular, it proves once and for all that you understand absolutely nothing about socialism but hate it with every fiber of your being because the rich told you to. Good job, lapdog.

>I've never seen a lion sharing 100% equally without any pack leaders.

Yes, this is key to the worldview of primitive capitalists. Humans are nothing but vicious animals and can never be anything more. Then they seek to embody the proof of this statement.

>The world will always have classes, the iron worker is bellow the soldier

You envision class as a necessary state and equate a form of labor with social class. Yet the rich occupy the highest social class, and what labor can they perform? All they do is sit around and collect revenue from the capital that they own.

OP, go brush your teeth with a pistol. Communism does not work. Period. Remember idiot, millions of people have died in the name of making things better.

>>685091819
>and make good arguments
Your argument is that others have bad arguments.

> run down the same, tired laundry list of nonsensical excuses as to why
communism will work last time if it "never worked" before,
If a clock doesn't work the tenth time you make it, why make it again, I mean it seems as if true communism is too hard to create, and easy to ruin, or maybe it worked correct the whole time, but it's just a shitty idea in real life.

>>685095015
>Communism is the theoretical end-point of the Marxist conception of socialism
>Fuck off Leninist.

I didn't say it was my conception of socialism. However, that is what "communism" actually means.

>>685095721
>doesn't see the hypocrisy in calling corporations greedy yet wanting others to pay for his shit
>still claims to be better than materialism but by his own admission "has a lot of stuff"

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name something that works better than capitalism

protip: you cannot

>>685096063

>Implying dying for the greater cause is a bad thing

No pain no gain, remember that faggot.

>>685096251
nice facebook meme faggot

good job with cropping it

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>>685095309
you're probably too young to get that this picture is a movie reference, and its made by an artist,. but im sure you dont watch any movies or browse any kind of imageboard or any type of that liberal nonsense

>>685096112
>Your argument is that others have bad arguments.

My statement is that anti-capitalist use the same four bumper-sticker-like slogans whenever we try to have this conversation (muh human nature, not your version of socialism, looks good on paper, communism is genocide). And I don't actually care to provide my arguments over and over again until you're prepared to come to terms with actual socialist ideas. If you want to discuss socialism, you have to be willing to understand its stated definitions instead of screaming the cold-war propaganda distortions of those definitions.

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>>685094401
>>685094476
>>685094858
>>685094904
>>685094934
>>685095083
>>685095495
>>685095625
how about reading the thread before sperging your fucktard ideology juices all over

>>685094598
Marx was a journalist
Fuck sanders

>>685094679
this

>>685094741
>not a single one of your evidential findings are any bit proven or factual
"capitalism = muh free magettss :DDDD" is so proven and factual.

But a description of how society produces and reproduces in perspective of how it has changed over history? No, that's "literal horseshit"

>>685096173
why what makes you assume i dont see my hypocrisy?

>>685096428
Nice ad hominem.

Meanwhile, Venezuela and Greece are on the brink of collapse because of their socialist policies.

Stay mad socialists.

>>685094255
Thank you. I'm glad there's at least one working brain out there.

>>685096574
>marx was a journalist
Except that he wasn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA2lCBJu2Gg

It is amazing how people will fight for the best interest of the rich for the nonexistent chance of becoming one of them. Capitalist society will always have income inequality. The people with all the money control the mass. We are just slaves in a rigged game.

But there is hope in technology. Eventually every thing will be automated thus collapsing the consumer/workibg class.

>>685096640
For the last time, it's not "ad hominem" if someone is simply mocking your shocking ignorance without intending to use that mockery to support a claim. Other than the claim that you are an idiot, that is.

>>685096640
And the fact Venezuela put all there economy in oil and oil prices fell which collapsed there economy.

>>685096926
>the literal definition of an ad hominem

Stay mad.

>>685093813
Transcendance of abstract labor, the essence of value? Please. Value is completely subjective, even if conditioned by the material aspect (like fucking everything, dipshit). A bunch of retards doing something shitty might imply a lot of labour, but it sure as hell wont be valued highly...or maybe it will (example: reality shows). Also the same goes the other way around.

Stop with the idea Marxism is scientific and come back when you actually have falsifiable claims, evidence and a mathematical model that describes the relevant phenomena (and hopefully predicts shit unlike most bullshit out of your kond of thinking).

>>685096640
>socialist policies

No such thing. State programs in a capitalist society are welfare policies, not socialist policies. Perhaps you mean social democratic or liberal policies? In that case, socialists would agree that those cannot solve the ills of capitalism.

>>685082178
mmmm yes fuckkkk yes let the revolution begin boys and girls

>>685097088
Fallacies involve arguments. Just calling you a moron is by itself not an argument - it's an insult. Also, I'm far more amused than mad.

>>685096317
> implied that he has the gall to offer up his own life for a cause, knowing he is a complete faggot and keyboard warrior

Bitch, please....The only pain you know is when your uncle got 20 minutes with you behind closed doors when you were seven. You don't have a single callus on either of your hands.

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>>685097082
Yes, the socialist government took control of all oil production in the country and mismanaged it to a mind boggling degree.
Then completely wrecked any other kind of business that Venezuelan citizens might try to start so that when the bottom fell out of the oil market (because the Saudis are pumping like mad) they had absolutely nothing else left to fall back on.

What a great defense of socialism. Well thought out. Thoroughly researched. So brilliant.

And you didn't even offer any excuses for Greece.

Good one.

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>>685096750
>moldyshoe's rant is way better than all these historians

>>685097036
>>685097082
>>685096574


>>685097111
>Value is completely subjective
It's half subjective
>A bunch of retards doing something shitty might imply a lot of labour, but it sure as hell wont be valued highly...or maybe it will (example: reality shows). Also the same goes the other way around.
No
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UltE6U4t8Vc

>implying neoclassical economics and sociology aren't entirely bullshit

>>685093896
Suffering is just the damage and danger alert system we have evolved into. It does not mean shit. Morality, and as a consequence justice, is just a bunch of convenient bullshit for society as whole, which is also fake shit since society is just and abstraction for the individuals that form it and their interactions.

>>685095958
>Do you know what "anti" means?
Yeah it's the opposite, or against and you are clearly that.

>That doesn't follow. Your claim that something is impossible doesn't have anything to do whether this is the stated intention of communism. In particular, it proves once and for all that you understand absolutely nothing about socialism but hate it with every fiber of your being because the rich told you to. Good job, lapdog.
What is this gibberish?
I can imagine dogs made of water, doesn't mean it's possible. HOW DOES IT PROVE I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SOCIALISM? EXPLAIN TO ME OR FUCKING BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT. STOP SKIRTING AROUND MY QUESTIONS WITH MEANINGLESS STATEMENTS.

>Yes, this is key to the worldview of primitive capitalists
fuck off retard, humans are humans, and they have a nature to live by, a man isn't going to want to sacrifice what he has or can get for someone he doesn't even know, would you? would you allow someone else to take something you want if you don't even know them? would you just let them take that car, or job? Humans naturally have greed, and we can't change that.

>You envision class as a...
What do they perform? They run the company, and own it, if it wasn't for them, the company would never had of existed.
And what makes a burger flipper equal to a man who has made his own burger flipping business? Whats the point of being a business manager when you can just flip burgers?

>>685096317
You aren't dying for the cause if nothing changes.

>>685096557
No one is screaming bumper stickers, but you my friend. You can't just argue that something works without explaining how, and why. I don't see how, or why socialism would work in a pure form without capitalism involved, even sweden would be dead without germany, and europe would be dead without the US.

>>685097121
>hurr durr I'm going to throw out a bunch of terms boil down to the same thing and then pretend that because something has a different label it is therefore not susceptible to the same flaws as the thing that was criticized

So if someone says they hate soup you would offer them pho and then call them an idiot when they say they hate it?

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>>685097480
Because the communists TOTALLY didn't have groups of powerful people at the top amirite guise?!

>>685094598
fact check your shit before you post it.
"After graduating from college, Sanders returned to New York City, where he initially worked in a variety of jobs, including Head Start teacher, psychiatric aide, and carpenter.[30] In 1968, Sanders moved to Vermont because he had been "captivated by rural life." After his arrival there he worked as a carpenter, filmmaker, and writer[44] who created and sold "radical film strips" and other educational materials to schools.[45] He also wrote several articles for the alternative publication The Vermont Freeman.[46]"

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>>685096467
>He's so autistic, he posts stupid Simpson reaction images.
>He's so autistic, He thinks I'm too young to have seen they live, even though everyone has seen it.
>He's so autistic, He thinks only he watches movies or goes on imageboards like the one I'm on right now.


This is going in the next cringe thread, thank you for your little sperg out.

>>685097480
No, it is completely subjective. The value we assign in itself is. The fact the way we assign value follows a pattern is another point entirely, moron.

And yes, neoclassical economics and sociology, for the most part (aka when they have overly ambitious untestable hypothesis that cannot be properly falsified...which is almost always), is bullshit.

>>685097645
>>685097657
We try to explain it to you but your basic understanding of the terms "socialism", "communism", etc. are completely incorrect. Then all you do is scream back at us that people are nothing but vicious animals born to tear each other apart and that this will never change. A sane society would probably put people like you in a zoo where you couldn't cause harm to anyone.

Read this pic >>685091819

Read. Learn. Understand. Then if you still have objections, you can at least explain them in a sensible way that doesn't cause me to laugh at you.

>>685097250
No it's an ad hominem if you insult someones "use of facebook" rather than their argument. stay mad little commie /r/etard

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The struggle is real, comrade, but you're wasting your time here. All you'll find in this cesspit are lumpen, classcucks, and pigs.

Educate. Organize. Agitate.

t. veganarcho-communist

>>685098179
>HUR DUR I'D TRY BUT YOU ARE JUST TO STUPID HUR DUR
Nice job completely ruining your argument, even though you never had one to begin with.

>>685096287
a mixed market economy, facism, true socialism, really any economic system works better than straight capitalism, well, that is if you dont want people dying in the streets from starvation.

>>685097801
North Korea has nothing to do with communism.

They have the word "democratic" in the name too, does that make it true?

>>685098298
See? I knew you'd never make any effort to educate yourself. So why should anyone care about your uneducated opinion?

>>685098559
Shut the fuck up kid, and just tell me, or are you going to keep saying "THERE HE GOES AGAIN TELLING ME I'M A MORON FOR NOT SPITTING OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT SOCIALISM."
I can handle it, but clearly you can't so go ahead and educate me.

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Pic applies to all "free shit" promised by socialist politicians.

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>>685099187
>socialist politicians
oxymoron

>>685098814
That's precisely what we've been attempting to do, but you're not actually interested in learning any of the information we provide. You stick your fingers in your ears and ignore it, determined to prevent anyone from moving you a single inch. How amusing that you would mention fallacies when you're incapable of even engaging in a rational discussion with socialists.

A socialist society is any society in which the means of production are controlled by the people through some democratic process (note: this does not mean that the economy is owned by the state and managed independently of the will of the people). It is based on the idea that society works best and provides the most opportunity for everyone to contribute when we have equality in social power and society is managed democratically. Socialism claims that the problem with private (or state) ownership of capital is that controlling economic power translates into unequal social and political power. And since wealth inequality is inevitable in the long run under capitalism, so is political inequality and plutocracy. This is precisely why attempts at democracy have failed in the United States. As we all know, we have a thoroughly corrupt political system and the rich are pulling the strings.

So socialism would be when the workers own the factories where they work and manage them through group decisions. It would be when the people decide how much to produce and how many hours to invest in production. Socialism would give the people the right to decide how the surplus of their efforts should be used to develop their society and build a better future; it would destroy the power of capitalists to decide that the surplus value produced by workers should be used simply to provide them with wealth, luxury, and power.

There are, of course, volumes more to say about socialism. But this is the true, basic definition. Socialism has nothing to do with Stalinism or other authoritarian regimes.

>>685098506
North Korea is communist, just not orthodox communist, instead of being classless it has a father figure like to guide the people.
>>685098196
This is a huge load of bullshit..
>Commodities are produced because they can be sold
Anything can be sold dipshit, and what people need will always be in demand, and always be bought.
>Means of production controlled by workers
Yeah, but why should the workers even want to work, or work that hard, I mean why can't they just skim by regulation, in capitalism if you skim by regulation no one buys your shitty product, but in communism you have no choice.
The communist government part is stupid, like you just expect everyone to start working together with no regulation held up by the government, and the workers are just supposed to be trusted not be lazy?

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>>685098179
Look. I don't give a fuck if it's socialism or communism or blarggle-spladdle.

FUCK ANY SYSTEM THAT REWARDS INDOLENCE AND PUNISHES HARD WORK.
FUCK ANY SYSTEM THAT TAKES FROM SOME MEMBERS OF SOCIETY WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT AND GIVES TO OTHERS.
FUCK ANY SYSTEM THAT EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLES SOCIALISM OR COMMUNISM.
FUCK ANY PERSON WHO PROPOSES SUCH SYSTEMS OR ADVOCATES FOR THEM.

Is that a little more clear for you?

>>685098506
Why don't you go tell the norks that they're not communist. I'm sure they'll listen to you.

>>685100308
How do you know if socialism does any of those things if you don't know (or care to know) what it means? In particular, it certainly doesn't remotely resemble anything you seem to think about socialism.

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>>685100262
>North Korea is communist, just not orthodox communist, instead of being classless it has a father figure like to guide the people.

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>>685100308
Agreed

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>>685101009
None them socialist.

Wealth distribution isn't either

>>685100180
Private property of the means of production does not necessarily do that. It only does that when it is made for profit itself, since that sets off the vicious cycle.

In any case, the only socialized means of production (probably via internal democracy, enterprise "constituions" and contracts in which all parties willfully accept/refuse risk and whatever mean of production they have) should be the ones employed with this explicit end of profit for itself (profit to get more profit ad infinitum).

>>685100262
>Anything can be sold dipshit, and what people need will always be in demand, and always be bought.

Markets don't exist in socialist societies. They don't need to exist because the fruits of production are simply provided to the people so that they can spend a great deal more free time focusing on their talents and working for a better society.

>Yeah, but why should the workers even want to work, or work that hard

The amount produced is directly related to the amount distributed. Workers own and manage their places of work, and they are given the responsibility of contributing to the social product. And the more productive they are in producing the needed product, the more free time they will have. Under these conditions, they have tremendous incentive to work hard for society and be productive in their necessary labor.

But, as we all know, it is the capitalist worker who is perpetually discouraged and unmotivated. It is the capitalist worker who works for the benefit of the owners, and who will only work hard enough to avoid losing their job. Capitalism provides workers with no motivation but fear, and must continually exert more pressure on workers to provide profits for capitalists as it begins to crumble in its later stages (the phenomena we experience as the collapse of the middle class).

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ITT

>>685100180
>Controlled by the people
But without the government who is to trust them, and make sure they don't fuck up everything? People can't boycot their needs, their isn't anywhere else to get their needs.

>controlling economic power translates into unequal social and political power
Political power can be corrupted no matter what, and social and economic inequality drives work either, and the strive for higher jobs, I don't want to just be another bum the same as everyone else, I want to stand out.

>so is political inequality and plutocracy
Not really, if you don't allow politicians the means to become greedy, they can't become corrupt.
>This is precisely why attempts at democracy have failed in the United States
What do you mean, we have had a republic democracy for 300 years, the only reason a full democracy wouldn't work is because we live in the untied states, not the tiny nation known as ancient Greece.

>As we all know, we have a thoroughly corrupt political system and the rich are pulling the strings.
But what we have isn't capitalism, it's been rigged by years of secret deal making that no one ever knew about, and it's not even that bad if Bernie and trump can become the two most talked about candidates.

Trump is a independent rich man, not the same as other corrupt people.

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What will happen to you idiot socialists in your new utopia

>>685101340
Problem is you think your abstractions are facts. There is no "workers". There are individual workers. Some of these will not work as hard in order to get more free time, even if the overall productivity declines. People do not think as a collective, but rather the collective moves according to how every individual thinks...and even then, this collective we are talking about is just shorthand for the processes performed by the individuals and theur interactions.

>>685084719
>literally nothing pertaining to liberalism
>being a dumb americunt who doesn't understand your binary political "system" is a distraction for your fucking idiot population

>>685082178
Capitalism has raised more people out of poverty than any other economic system in history. Communism not only fails economically, but it's actually the deadliest ideology of the 20th Century. Literally worse than Hitler.

>>685100507
But I do know what it means. And I don't care about the different shades of grey between socialism, democratic socialism, communism, marxism, leninism, maoism or any of that.

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>>685101222
>hurr durr no true scottsman

>>685101284
I have no idea what you're saying here.

>Private property of the means of production does not necessarily do that

Does not do what?

>It only does that when it is made for profit itself, since that sets off the vicious cycle.

I don't know what cycle you mean, but market exchange for profit is one of the pillars of capitalism. Under capitalism, all economic actions are taken to maximize profit - this creates significant problems when social needs and the profit motive do not align and it destroys the environment, leads to a neglect of necessary infrastructure, or leads to a corruption of the political system.

>the only socialized means of production (probably via internal democracy, enterprise "constituions" and contracts in which all parties willfully accept/refuse risk and whatever mean of production they have) should be the ones employed with this explicit end of profit for itself (profit to get more profit ad infinitum).

I don't think this actually means anything. You should explain what you think "socialized means of production" means. In a socialist society, profit does not exist as a motive. And it is certainly not clear that profit is a positive or necessary motive.

Fuck off Commie. Better dead than red.

>>685101630
THIS FUCKING THIS FUCKING THIS FUCKING THIS

>>685101222
If they weren't socialist then they certainly rose through socialist rhetoric and had socialist elements in their philosophies.

>>685100717
>Arguing against literally every site on the internet.

>>685101340
>Markets don't exist in socialist societies. They don't need to exist because the fruits of production are simply provided to the people so that they can spend a great deal more free time focusing on their talents and working for a better society.
Yeah, but what If I don't want to eat socialist "food product 00R2" every day?

>The amount produced is directly related to the amount distributed....
Hold on that is stupid, The socalist worker will have free time no matter what, they won't get docked a paycheck, or anything if something is slightly borderline on the standards, like getting a D- in school, but for the capitalist worker if he wants to have a nice wedding he is going to have to get a B, not crummy D- work.
No one is motivated or works for the benefit of someone else, unless they like them. Why wouldn't the socialist work hard enough to avoid losing job? Capitalism provides workers more motivation than just fear of the gulags, it provides the dream of a bright future living at the top, in greener pastures, retiring early, and if they can't get it at that job, they find another one, and quit.

>>685101630
FUCKING THIS

Please, open it up for me and my redneck friends to fuck your shit up, you retarded hipsters. We don't believe in socialism, but we've been waiting for an excuse to start shooting you assholes.

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>>685101826
>>685101866
>>685101885
PROTIP: READ THE THREAD

>>685101950
pic related

>>685102292
>If they weren't socialist then they certainly rose through socialist rhetoric and had socialist elements in their philosophies.
Reality > ideology

>>685088273
I'm a libertarian socialist, and your stats are the shittiest bait I've seen in 4chan.

>>685102534
>libertarian socialist
Quite the oxymoron there.

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>>685101630

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Person from Finland here. We have high socialism here's stuff u need to know about socialism

>pay is good
>food is expensive
>30-50% tax depending on income
>awesome welfare (welfare is high if u have worked)
>union money
>never enough work
>awesome recycling for bottles and cans 15-40cnt for every bottle/can you return
>no poverty
>low crime (not counting niggers)
>internet is shit if you don't have tons of money
>phone usage is cheap though
>alcoholism is common
>drugs are common but you get fucked if you use them
>Government will ban everything
>If you won't be able to get work government will fuck you over
>niggers everywhere
>anything you do to niggers is crime
>Welcome to socialism

>>685101611
>without the government who is to trust them

A much-reduced government typically exists to be a referee, manager, and protect the basic rights of people in a limited, constitutional way. But this will vary by implementation (socialism is a framework, not a particular implementation).

>People can't boycot their needs, their isn't anywhere else to get their needs.

This is precisely why capitalists are the real owners of a capitalist society, even when they pretend to be democracies - the production of your basic needs is controlled by the capitalists. Capitalism does not involve an equal exchange between labor and capitalists precisely because "their[sic] isn't anywhere else to get their needs".

But under socialism, the people as a whole own the means of production. The goods produced by the economy will not be denied to the people because they are the owners, not the capitalists or the state.

>Political power can be corrupted no matter what

This is a socialist idea. That's why we don't allow people to have an unequal amount of social, political, or economic power. A ruling class will always form if the conditions for unequal power exist. Therefore we do not allow these conditions to exist.

>I want to stand out.

People who don't understand socialism typically misunderstand "equality". Bakunin has a good quote on this - essentially the social aspect of excellence will certainly still exist under socialism, but this will not translate into gaining power over others. That's the difference between excellence under capitalism and socialism. The idea that we would break everyone's knees or however that silly right-wing saying goes is patently ridiculous.

(continued in next post)

Is there any mention from the socialist/communist side about freedom of choice and the freedom of the individual? Many citizens of the nations that attempted communism didn't even have the freedom to travel or the freedom to choose their occupation. How is that different from serfdom?

>>685102514
1. tl;dr
2. fuck you
3. there's nothing you can say that will erase the ACTUAL history of socialism/communism and capitalism-- your stupidity has been tried in the past and it has failed very badly EVERY SINGLE TIME. Capitalism has been used many times AND HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL EVERY SINGLE TIME.
4. Fuck off and die. I can' fucking WAIT for you red shits to start a revolution so we can wipe you shits out once and for all.

>>685102534
>libertarian socialist
10/10 would rage again

My friend, the fact that you denounce the soviet union means nothing. You still preach failed ideology that was thought up 150 years ago. If these brilliant thoughts haven't made it to mainstream in 150 years then it kind of means that they are trash and worth nothing. The biggest mistake retards like you make is think that there is one united "worker class". This way of thinking that people can be so easily labeled is what brought on all the purges and repressions in all of socialist regimes lol. You only have chains as long as you are an uneducated fuck who works at McDonalds. And I honestly don't want to be on the same level as some McHero, we are not equal and we never will be. Unless you decide to make something of yourself and actually speak with your own words kek. World is unfair, get over it. Capitalism has it's flaws, but ultimately it is the only system that offers individuality and freedom.

>>685102514
>READ THE THREAD
a lot of the thread tells me you are wrong.

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Dear /b/ I think I have autism

>>685101951
"That" meaning "leads necessarily to unequal social/economical power".

Profit always exists as a motive as long as there is scarcity in at least one sector...and this is pretty much guaranteed even if only by the differences in our ocupation preferences (at least until tech makes us completely free aka enough robots/AI).

What I am saying is firms, if they intend to exploit this scarcity condition, should be run democratically and without imposing any particular bullshit. This would mean you are either a non for profit organization (or even a club or something like that) or run by those that are active (as in providing part of the productive factors) within the firm one way or another.

>>685102848
this

>>685102611
(not that poster) but it isnt an oxymoron. Libertarianism is in relation to social freedom (i.e being able to do drugs without the government breathing down your neck) while socialism is an economic policy where the people are kept in the "best" intrest of the government through economic regulation, the two are not related.

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>>685098334
offer me some proof, brother

>>685103104
How the fuck can you have personal freedom if your economic freedoms are taken away?

>>685103104
This, and I have a lot of sympathies for 'right libertarians' in relation to war, civil liberties, and small units of governance.

ATM still waffling between property-by-use and abolishment of property altogether in lieu of possessions.

>>685103104
>Libertarianism is not an economic philosophy
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>685084719
are you implying that you think china is a good place to live?

>>685103332
Let me elucidate- I don't support the taking of personal possessions.

I support a slow transition to worker-owned means of production, communes and co-ops, the smashing of the corporate veil (corporations are state-created constructs), a polycentric council-led legal system to protect private possessions, and the elimination of property.

Most of what you consider 'property' are merely possessions, and would be afforded and recognized much of the safe protections.

>>685103332
see, thats a misconception, socialism doesnt "take away" your economic freedoms, it just puts regulation onto the market in order to lower the income inequality gap or help the lower class systems in that country. people are still free to work any job they so desire if they work for it.

>>685101611
>if you don't allow politicians the means to become greedy, they can't become corrupt.

Yes! Yes! Now you get it. And they won't be able to be greedy if there's nobody who can pay them off! (of course, "politicians" as we know them probably won't exist under socialism - for example, some implementations call for government positions to be filled by lottery for limited periods).

>What do you mean, we have had a republic democracy for 300 years, the only reason a full democracy wouldn't work is because we live in the untied states, not the tiny nation known as ancient Greece

Democracy and direcy democracy are not the same thing. My point is that the people do not rule the united states in any sense, even in the sense of a "constitutional republic". I think you realize as much as I do that the government does not respond to the will of the people at all, and it's no coincidence that government policy always results in an increase in the wealth of the richest Americans.

>what we have isn't capitalism, it's been rigged by years of secret deal making that no one ever knew about

It is capitalism; this is what capitalism has always been. Capitalism itself has no rules about the relationship between government and the rich. This is the theoretical mistake that capitalists always make: capitalism is not a static state in which supply and demand curves determine the behavior of perfectly rational agents - it is an evolving system that provides wealth to the owners of capital and investors at a more rapid rate than it does to laborers. So over time, it will necessarily result in an unequal distribution of wealth that heavily favors the richest capitalists. And this has always been the case.

Now once the capitalists have this wealth, they have the means to bribe absolutely anyone they want. They can ensure that the people in office are those willing to take their bribes. Who do you think is on the other end of those "secret deals"?

>>685103338
Property by use makes sense since it is the necessary consequence of our ability to use tools and shape our environment. Then again, what happens if I have property I do not use or intend to use? Expropiation of any sort would imply fucking over some freedom and in the worst case a nosy state. That is why I think a proportional land and market sharr tax makes sense, since those are the ultimate restrictions regarding what one can own (space and the processes that happens in it through time).

>>685082178
>globalisation is good
>capitalism, not only as economics, as a political system is the utopia for the free individual

since the fall of soviet we've pretty much only had mixed market economies all over the world. every form of commerce is controlled and taxed.
if you want an example of "truer" capitalism, check taiwan from the 70's to today. they've pretty much used free global trading, using the consumer markets of the west to launch themselves from a GDP per capita equal to that of nigeria to equalling that of spain in the early 2000's. its pretty cool, they had one or two generations in sweat shops and now their children are going to universities

socialism in its pure form on the other hand, is literally north korea

get fucked i dont know how you can argue for it

>>685103554
Where's my right to start a business? To earn my keep? To make money? To rise above others through hard work?

>>685087527
What happened in 1970-something ?

>>685102514
When you say reality > ideology do you realize these men were socialists? They really were, that's what they preached and tried to implement in their nations. You may disagree with them on some issues but I wish you could argue with them and try to convince Hitler his national socialist party was capitalist or something else, or that Stalin didn't believe in socialism. There seems to be issues implementing that ideology into reality

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>>685102848
>all the Idealism
kek

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>>685103608
>see, thats a misconception, socialism doesnt "take away" your economic freedoms, it just puts regulation onto the market in order to lower the income inequality gap or help the lower class systems in that country. people are still free to work any job they so desire if they work for it.
You just literally described the complete elimination of all economic freedom

>>685103460
Economics is a component, a large one. Liberty is the primary principle. Archons, or power structures are agents against liberty. For 'right' libertarians, the State, violators of the NAP, and property criminals are considered unduly using power. 'Left' libertarians recognize the boss-worker, lender-lendee, and owner-renter relationships oppressive, as well as hierarchies in general, though we generally don't place as much or any sanction against violators of 'property rights'.

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>>685087527
maybe technological advancement has something to do with this, look at the years

>>685103608
>regulation
Yes. And that curtails my economic freed. So you just said two opposite things in the same breath.

>lower the income inequality gap
Why should I care about that? That's literally just being jealous that someone else has more money than you.

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>>685103515
can you read?

I'm implying that capitalism, from USA to China to the UK, is a decadent system

>>685103608
Fuck off reformist

>>685103808
>these men were socialists
they weren't. but even if they were it would be irrelevant. Classes make history, not individuals' beliefs

>>685103996
Those things he's talking about have nothing to do with socialism

>>685103892
>Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[1][2] left-libertarianism[3][4] and socialist libertarianism[5]) is a group of anti-authoritarian[6] political philosophies inside the socialist movement that rejects socialism as centralized state ownership and control of the economy,[7] as well as the state itself.

>>685103825
That pic is right tho

Thinking about society as a real thing instead of the abstraction created to describe a much more complex and somewhat chaotic system of a shitload of individual interactions that it is...is kinda retarded tbqh fam

>>685103646
>I think you realize as much as I do that the government does not respond to the will of the people at all.

You're denying every social moment, American civil rights protests, prohibition, Britain releasing India. As if politicians, presidents and prime ministers never react to falling favorability numbers.

Spot on comrade! Long live the immortal science of marxism-leninism, long live the proletarian revolution.

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>>685103996

>>685091819
that pic is so biaised that it's not even making a point, I mean, the final goal of marxism socialism have never been reached, so why do you keep saying it's good?

>>685082178
Haha. Comunism is the crisis in venaswaulia.
We have nothing to lose but our families from starvation. 60million dead under stalin. Thats more than hitler.

>>685104255
>science

Go to /sci/
Please...do it.


You will get laughed to death.

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>>685104097
>they weren't. but even if they were it would be irrelevant. Classes make history, not individuals' beliefs

Arguing with Hitler on his own politics

>>685104255
>marxism-leninism
a cancer to the proletariat

stfu social democrat in denial

>>685103825
>bourgeois individualism
>bourgeois
pls stop proving my point you fucking cuck, has nothing to do with my idealism, has more to do with me coming from a postsoviet state, being a realist and seeing you philosophy/sociology/politics students/part time mcdonalds janitors being so idealistic about a government form which relies on literally forcing itself on people lol. Why is it always the leftist redcucks who yell about revolutions and shit like that?

>>685103065
So your claim that private ownership of capital does not necessarily lead to unequal social/economical power is key to separating blame for obvious social and political dysfunction from the operation of capitalism itself. But I'm not sure you actually believe this.

I claim that private ownership of capital leads to a concentration of wealth into the hands of a few individuals, and that this results in those individuals having much more social and political power than anyone else. If this claim is true, then capitalism and the private ownership of capital will necessarily lead to plutocracy and tyranny.

The first part is obviously true; we can just look to the distribution of wealth in the United States to see that capitalism has resulted in a massive concentration of wealth. It was even worse before the Great Depression and towards the end of the industrial revolution.

The second half should also be obvious, but capitalism's supporters always seem to be deliberately vague about how this corruption and deal-making occurs. Who has the means and motivation to ensure that government makes economic policies that benefit the rich? Those with the economic power to pay off the politicians, of course.

Certainly welfare policies have been implemented in capitalist nations, but these only exist to prevent a workers' rebellion (at the time the New Deal was implemented, there was significant risk of a socialist revolution in the United States). Go ahead and cancel all social programs. We'll have a revolution in two weeks.

>>685104276
Read Ludo Martens, Grover Furr, J Arch Getty, Mario Sousa, Bill Bland, Kenneth Neil Cameron, John D Scott, John Littlepage, Harpal Brar or Anne Louise Strong. They all prove the anti-Stalin myth is absolute bullocks and lies. I challenge you to disprove their outstanding research.

>>685104141
And this contradicts what I said how?

>>685104226
Here is a study by Princeton political scientists indicating that the United States in now more properly called an oligarchy than a democratic nation:

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

>independent citizens...have little to no independent influence.

>>685104415
Marxism-Leninism is the arch nemesis to social-democracy mate

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>>685104438
>postsoviet
the soviets were destroyed by 1919

>>685103796
What kind of business?

Lets say energy- coal, oil, natural gas
Under the current system, if you find any oil under your backyard by sheer luck, you can enforce it yourself or by proxy (security company/the state) as 'property' for no good reason.

Under the proposed system, you are afforded privacy and protection within your own home as a possession, but you can't turn the means of production- like the oil- magically into 'property'. It instead belongs to everyone, and would be administrated by council.

Let's take another example- a lemonade stand. Who owns the lemon trees? You? Why? Because you think you do, because you paid for the land it's on. In the proposed system, voted-in councils will decide how the fruits (kek) of labor will be distributed and the MOP used.

>What if I have a new idea
In the current capitalist system, what happens?
If you work for an engineering firm and have a new idea on company time, the general response is for the firm to give you a check for exactly $1.00
>(as a legal measure)
and give you a promotion or head up a research team, which may or may not have a salary increase. Most scientists and engineers are okay with this.

>>685104188
But that's what the redcucks are trying to do tho. Trying to force people to interact based on the ruleset that they created. Kind of like playing a game and starting to create your own rules after you notice that you suck and fail at the game kek

>>685096467
>>685097942
hey guys, I haven't seen that film, what is it?
(I'm 19)

Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape
Capitalism is consensual sex
Communism is rape

>>685104575
>Libertarianism is in relation to social freedom (i.e being able to do drugs without the government breathing down your neck) while socialism is an economic policy where the people are kept in the "best" intrest of the government through economic regulation, the two are not related.

If those are not contradictory then what is?

>>685104264
>that pic is so biaised that it's not even making a point

It's an explanation of the basic concepts and definitions of socialist theory. You might not agree with the assessment of capitalism, but you should at least learn how socialists describe their own ideas.

>the final goal of marxism socialism have never been reached, so why do you keep saying it's good

Are goals in general not things that are good but have not yet been achieved? What kind of statement is this?

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>>685104632
it's really not.

It's the left wing of capital

>>685104632
They really, really don't know the difference. It's shocking.

>>685104766
>It's the left wing of capital

Yeah, in other words social democrats support capitalism. Socialists are anti-capitalist, and view social democrats as collaborators.

>>685101519
listen, your pic is funny and all but, it's not revelant and far from being objective

>>685104766
Im not going to discuss politics with someone who unironicly shares a picture with "Stalinism". Please go be an edgelord somewhere else

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>>685104691
So nothing but government bureaucracies running everything? No one owns any property, it's all the government's? That sounds like 1984 to me. How about we don't go that way and stick with what works: capitalism.

>>685104483
No, that is not my claim. Read both my posts again.

Also private ownership of capital does not lead to a concentration of wealth. The goal of profit for profit itself does that since that is what actually leads to the tyranny and plutocracy you mention.

>>685104706
Just some redcucks. I have met retarded redcucks and some that actually have a point. The problem is usually when they try to subtly insert some sort of subjective value judgement as fact or when they wander into unfasifiable land.

>>685104975
Welcome to every right-wing meme in existence.

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>>685104766
>>685104803
tankies are one of the largest obstacles to communism

>>685104756

>You might not agree with the assessment of capitalism, but you should at least learn how socialists describe their own ideas.

If the end product of a socialist explanation of capitalism is the revelation that socialists don't understand capitalism then why is it presented as an argument against capitalism?

>>685103743
>Then again, what happens if I have property I do not use or intend to use
What's an example? I support the right to possessions- e.g. cars
If you don't drive your car 3 days per week, I don't see why any council would allow Juan next door to take it for that time, increasing the risk of crashing it, depreciating it, breaking it, or returning it late.


> Expropiation of any sort would imply fucking over some freedom and in the worst case a nosy state
I agree, and want to keep coercion to a minimum. That said

>State system
State uses coercion via property tax and 'upkeep' fines

>Anarcho capitalist
'Owner' uses coercion to enforce ownership

>Property by use
Voted-in council may use coercion if it is deemed that the property is not being used to the community's best interests.

Option 3 seems relatively good.

I'm not naive though, and recognize that this, like any system, has room for abuse- and improvement.

>proportional land and market sharr tax makes sense
Any material on this? Seems interesting.

I would rather go with ayn Rand philosophy tbhfam

>>685082178
>tries to criticize the system
>entire argument is based on getting rid of the entire system altogether to try out something that has never worked and was never popular
>muh working class

you could also just live in the woods. easy.

>>685104669
autism/baiting is real
Why do you think the soviets were abolished btw? Oh yeah because none of the people who were in the soviets actually gave a fuck about your marx and engels and all the neckbearded faggotry they wanted to enforce. People didn't want to play by the autism that your ideology tries to enforce, so the mastercuck Lenin had to step in to keep the fantasy alive. Getrekt

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>>685104918
M-L's are not socialists, anymore than randians are

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>>685105197
Have you ever read Lenin or Stalin? No probably havent and if you have you dont understand it