Why does it matter?

>>684701863

Yes.

Homosexual = people attracted to one's own sex.

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>>684701863

Watch me click the collapse button and you and your faggot trap thread vanish forever.

Only gay if balls touch. If you do not already know this, you need to lurk moar.

its not that fucking hard

every "straight" person is at least a little gay and every "gay" person is at least a little straight

thats how it works. there is no solid left or right. we're all fucking faggot perverts and we're all brainwashed to believe we shouldn't be by old boring prudes

>>684702717

Faggot detected

>>684702778
says the guy that is casually refreshing a trap thread

>>684702717
Homosexuality is a mental disorder. Prove me wrong. Tip: You can't

>>684702979
fuk u got me there

>>684702717
>every "straight" person is at least a little gay
This reminds me of an anecdote about blacks.

People ask why black people have white ish skin on their palms and bottom feet. The answer is simple; everyone has a little good in them.

Only if your male

>>684702979

I'm here to tell faggots like yourself to kill yourself.

Kill yourself.

yes, yes it does.

>>684703018
Also to add to this, I'm not fucking gay. I know what I am, I am straight. I am just trying to say that anyone who is a faggot has a brain disorder END OF STORY. I had my experiences, I KNOW im not gay dude. My big brother used to fuck me alright, its fucked up man. But I never liked it. I NEVER LIKED IT

THERE ARE STRAIGHT PEOPLE AND HOMOS, NO IN BETWEEN.

>>684701863
Passable trap? Nope.
Non-passable trap? Maybe.

There is always bi, but I think beyond that all of the pan-moxi-demi crap is bullshit.

Maybe, maybe not. But being attracted to that child makes u a pedo

>>684703166
>making 120k a year
>with a 10/10 wife who fucks me with a strap on every time im feeling a little gay

kill myself. haha okay.

"dude i swear i was only on that thread because i was telling fags to kill themselves. knock next time dude wtf im not gay"

>>684701863
i think its pretty gay just my opinion tho...
if you think real girl<guy in female clothing consciously yes.Wouldnt consider it gay if you just had an appreciation for them tho

>>684703018
Homosexuality occurs in many different species in the animal kingdom. Now I'm waiting for your peer-reviewed research to prove to me that there is a brain dysfunction causing homosexuality.

>>684703166
if you're not gay then post a pic of your cock to prove it

everyone knows the only way to prove someone is gay is to examine their cock

post it or automatic guilt

>>684703018
Spartan men fucked each other more then the women
>Women were made to look like men for the first little while that they mated
>Spartans are truly godly
>TFW you will never know the love of your Spartan brothers

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>>684703654

>120k salary
>10/10 wife

>>684703018
Actually I can! Homosexuality is not listed in the DSM-5, the book in which the APA lists all recognized disorders and symptoms.

>>684703792
It is proved that homosexual people have a smaller front left brain lobe, and that that is believed to provoke homosexuality. Also there are many investigations relating homosexuality as a mental disorder, and most of them have proved my theory right. I don't give a fuck about dogs, we are fucking human beings, we can think for ourselves.

>>684704264

It used to before SJW cuckoldry

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>>684701863
Who fucking cares if it does or doesn't. Go with your dick's instincts.

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>>684703975
Wow known faggotry goes to a certain point but you surpassed it you massive faggot

>>684704503
This. Why the hell do some men care so much that some other men like playing with people that have wieners?

>>684704362
But it's not now. Call it "progress" or call it "SJW cuckoldry" all you want, the fact remains that it's not accepted by the APA as a disorder, and they're kinda the ones who decide what is and isn't a disorder.

Yes. It's a man.
/thread

>>684704306
>Alan Turing
>Faggot
>Built what is considered to be the first computer
>You're currently using a computer
>You must be gay
>Inb4 anon denies the facts

Yes.

Trap = male.
Therefore you are a huge fucking faggot

>>684702200
Nope, it's still here.

The only reason homosexuality was taken out of the DSM was because of gay terrorists threatening the lives of the people who keep the thing up to date.

>>684704306
> I don't give a fuck about dogs

So you're gonna ignore an important point I made just because it doesn't fit your view? That already tells me we are not gonna have an intelligent conversation.

>>684701863
Very simple. Is there a penis? (the male only reproductive organ)
If the answer is yes and you are also a biological human male, then yes, it is gay.
Probably bait but just gonna clear this up on the offchance

>>684704223
damn you got me so good

i am burned!!!

>>684703018

It doesn't meet the criteria for being a mental disorder. That's why it was removed from the DSM 40 or 50 years ago.

I.e., "A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

>>684705319
top kek

>>684705316
Just because homosexuality occurs in nature doesn't mean it isn't a disorder or mutation. Homosexuality is naturally occurring, but so is cancer.

>>684705301
>gay terrorists
Are these "terrorists" shooting up planned parenthoods and crashing planes into buildings? No, gullible religious nuts who view homosexuality as a disorder do that.

Yes,because you're fucking a man

>>684705543

The dysfunction is "not wanting to reproduce". A living creature that doesn't want to reproduce is broken.

>>684705543
so would trans genderism or wanting to be a trap count?

>>684703792
Riiight because mental disorders occur only in humans? You fuckin idiot.

>>684704959
>considered the first computer

No it isn't you nigger

>>684704306
>It is proved that homosexual people have a smaller front left brain lobe, and that that is believed to provoke homosexuality.

No. Gay men have a lobe similar to that of straight women. That's not the same thing as homosexual men having a mental disorder.

Then, what differs homosexuality from bestiality and pedophilia? They are not mental disorders, and if they're caused form a bad gene on birth, then they should be legalized too. I've always wanted to marry my parrot.

>>684704503

Exactly, trust your cock and stab the browneye

>>684705618
Even if it was a mutation, mutations are not inherently bad. Homosexuality would help with over-population, so to say it's "wrong" would be completely arbitrary

>>684704503

Exactly, trust your cock and aim for the prostate

>>684706134
Exactly trust your cock and play tummy swords

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDRqPaB03I

here's your answer

>>684705807

Except that would mean all the gay people who have done IVF or who have had children with members of the opposite sex aren't actually mentally ill.

Guys, just give it a resty.

>>684706369
369, dam good thyme

Also, tell me how priving a baby from living in a family with the woman who gave him/her birth (man if lesbian) could somehow be legal. That isn't a family, that is an infertile union.

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>>684704306
Well, actually, homosexuality would be a direct result of abstract thought. If we were to go strictly with our instincts, and the human species had no capability of abstract thought, then the population would be all heterosexual, with the exception of the less than 0.1% who did engage in homosexual intercourse (which at that point WOULD be a mental disorder, because of the lack of ability for abstract thought would put it in direct contrast with basic instinct). However, we are capable of higher than instinctual thinking, and thustly, homosexuality occurs at a larger rate in our species than others.

I'll have to remember where I found it, but I remember looking through an interesting study once that concluded that, on average, those who are more sexually deviant tend to have higher IQ's. One good example of this might be Alan Turing, like that other anon mentioned.

>>684706369
Thanks now YouTube will think that I'm gay

>>684705825

Actually I tend to think it might. There is something a little fucked up about wanting to go under the knife to have your balls chopped off and your penis turned inside out. It would be good if these people could be offered some other option, but that's an assessment based on the drastic lengths they are willing to subject themselves to in order to be happy. Gay people just want to buttfuck and scissor. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to give a fuck or why they should be classified as mentally ill. And I utterly fail to see why anyone else cares either.

Yes, having your dick in another man's ass is gay.

>>684703018
I wouldn't say it is a mental disorder. That term seems extreme. Id classify it as a form of sexual depravity/immorality. People that are gay choose to be gay. People that claim "They were born in the wrong body" come off mentally ill. They seem to have an actual disorder.

People only hate homosexuals because it's their only defining characteristic and they flaunt it. It's like going around having foot fetish or scat pride parades.

Do what you will at home, but christ, I don't want to know about you and jerry eating each others asses.

>>684707038
>implying all of us butt pirates do this

Good god man, most of my fellow gays can't even stand the LGBTBBQ community as it is today. We're not all pride queens, you know,

Homosexuality is not normal. Quit trying to explain why it is.

>>684707038
I can agree 110% to that statement. I have my own morals and beliefs about homosexuality, but I genuinely am disgusted about how it is flaunted and forced on people. Unacceptable.
>do you think it is normal to be gay? Huh?
>"Not necessarily"
>OMG YOU UNEDUCATED HOMOPHOBE

>>684706937
>Id classify it as a form of sexual depravity/immorality.

Why in the name of sweet fuck is it immoral? You're literally posting this on 4chan. What the hell is immoral about being gay?

>>684701863

A trap is a male trying to be a female.

> you can ID male from female with DNA and other forsenics and this doesnt change even if someone is a trans.

Male fucking a male is homosexual, fucking pussy is heterosexual and fucking both is bisexual

>I'm going to become the most influential man in all of history

>>684707225
LGBTBBQ? Damn man, i only knew LGBT, but BBQ? Really?

>>684707483
Wasn't talking to you and I am not going to take my time to combat with you. Fuck off back to tumblr.

>>684707399

It's never been forced on anyone, and the flaunting is like once a year in a fucking pride parade in some distant city. Call off the dogs, jesus.

>>684707602

Yeah bbq, because homosexual males love bbq sausage

>>684707701
Good one, internet points for you.

>>684707682
You seem defensive. Also, you are wrong.

>>684707483
Liking the same sex is what is immoral about being gay.

Bunch of faggot cock suckers ahah. Go fuck an inside out dick

>>684701863
It doesn't not make you gay. Hope this helped

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>>684701863
Because they are the same sex as you. Its literally the definition of Gay.

>>684707897
it didnt

>>684707682

The fact that we're having the discussion is proof positive it is being forced. Non faggots just don't want to hear about it anymore since such a tiny minority of people is being so whiny and in your face about their stupid fetish. Nobody cares that you're gay, they care that you feel the need to talk about it in public like it isn't sexual.

I get pissed at straight people talking about their sex lives in public. Sex is private, leave it at that. People would get creeped the fuck out if I started talking about how often I beat off, but you don't see fap enthusiasts trying to get legislature passed.

>>684707922
Omg that's so transphobic why can't you just accept I've evolved beyond your binary culture and my chromosomes are not indicative of my gender. I have a penis but I feel like a woman without any actual reference of what that biologically feels like, because I'm a man

Is what a mentally ill person would say

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>>684701863
no, it makes you a huge massive faggot

it doesn't get faggier than that and this is coming from a guy who just sucked two cocks earlier that day.

>>684705935
Yes it is you shit head

>>684703654
You're a fag

>>684703792

Animals also cannibalize their babies, and kill their rivals for trying to fuck the female they want to fuck. Is that socially acceptable behavior for humans too?

What's your point, fag apologist?

>>684707871

No, that's what disgusts you about it. If it's wrong then you should be able to articulate a reason why I should give a shit that someone is attracted to the same sex. Why is someone fucking another dude more immoral than someone doing a cartwheel?

The meanings of moral terms are tied up and associated with what benefits and harms human beings. I understand why I shouldn't beat an innocent to death, morally speaking, because it amounts to subjecting someone to deliberate unnecessary/unjustified harm. But why should I wig out about fags? No one has ever been able to say, and that's why you idiots can't win a court case to save your fucking lives.

>>684708453
GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTUCT YOU UNCULTURED, UNEDUCATED, FASCIST, BIGOT HETEROSEXUAL!!!!!!!!!

>>684701863

>>684708689
It's actually indicative of our innate biology considering tons of uncivilized tribes did this and still do this. Socially acceptable is a pretty subjective term anyways

>>684708169
>The fact that we're having the discussion is proof positive it is being forced.

No it's not. It's proof positive conservatives insist on making it a political issue.

9/10 would both before and after...

>>684703283
what about people who like both?
Thats litterally the definition of being inbetween.

So much for your black and white

>>684709149
It wouldn't be a political issues if fags stopped telling people how much they love getting dicks in their butts.

>>684708884
The irony is that that argument, "gender is a social construct", is still a highly disputed philosophy generally only pushed by liberal schools of thought. If every human culture ever defines the male's role as provider/protector and the female as homecarer then the LOGICAL mentality is to postulate that its biological. But the LGBT community at large rarely agrees with biology, or logic for that matter.

Society(western society really) has just become so afraid to be politically incorrect that we've helped enable a misguided sub-culture of mentally ill ladymen.

>>684709296
Too old.

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>>684708961

Do I believe that homosex is a choice? No, I don't. I really couldn't fathom why someone would want to subject themselves to all of the negative backlash that goes along with it.

But do I believe that they're special, or wonderful, or worthy of my respect for being "brave" by taking another man's dick up their ass? Absolutely not. I find homosexual behavior, other than in the case of lipstick lesbians, to be revolting, because my brain was not programmed to think that shit's natural.

What homosexuality really is, is a evolutionary fail-safe to prevent overpopulation. And a way to end genetic bloodlines that are unfavorable. Of course, faggots and dykes can circumvent this with in vitro, surrogates, adoption, whatever. But biology has no concept of these things.

tl;dr - Fags and dykes are fags and dykes because their bloodlines were chosen for extinction. They have nothing to be proud of. They're gay because nature decided they weren't worth being driven to reproduce. Doesn't mean they're bad people, and they shouldn't be looked at any differently than people with Down's Syndrome or that are born sterile for one reason or another.

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>>684701863

Yes, fucking another man makes you gay.

>>684709706
Most of the political issues came from gays wanting to marry didn't it?

That is requiring legislature and voicing it for it to pass.

>>684703654
Just passing by this fag thread, the fact that you had to defend yourself. You fucking spoiled fruitbasket, go suck that strapon

>>684709706

Or if you just admitted you have no cogent reason that they should be subjected to inferior treatment.

And no, God doesn't want you to fuck with people for no reason, no matter what you think the Bible says.

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It means you are a faggot, and that's okay.

>>684702042
>Why does it matter?

/thread

>>684710248
And marriage is a religious, non governmental practice. The government shouldn't have any control over what a private group deems acceptable or not. Sidenote: churches should also pay taxes.

>>684710278
I'm an atheist. They did not receive any inferior treatment. If I walked into any public place and shouted "Man I sure do love when people piss in my mouth, it gets my dick so hard I'm just oozing pre in moments!" I would be disliked, and with good reason. That is the same thing as going anywhere and announcing to the world "I sure do love me some butt stuff, oh yeah, just can't get enough!" And that's what everyone hears when you tell them you're gay. Because that's all it is about, what you're diddling, and how you like to do said diddling. it doesn't have to do with you as a person, it just has to do with what your particular kink is.

>>684707634
It's because your imaginary friend says so. I wish in the buybull it would tell its followers to kill themselves. Would be a lot less idiots around.

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>>684710219

I actually dated a bitch in high school that turned out to be a dike. Her mom was a dike and her cousin was a faggot. Kind of makes sense. Some people just want to fight nature.

>>684703792
So does cannibalism. Should we lovingly accept cannibals?

>>684711045
>Because that's all it is about, what you're diddling, and how you like to do said diddling. it doesn't have to do with you as a person, it just has to do with what your particular kink is.

So in connection with, say, gay marriage, your argument is that gay people can't actually fall in love and have committed relationships? That it's just a weird internet kink in a way that heterosexuality just isn't, is that right?

>>684705905
Prove to me that it is a disorder you fucking idiot. And no, "muh bible" is not an actual reason.

>>684711045
>And marriage is a religious, non governmental practice.

That's a completely false, anti-historical assertion. No one had ever made this assertion in the history of mankind before same sex marriage became an issue. It's a silly ad hoc rationalization for the exclusion of homosexuals from government recognition of same sex marriages. There are myriad cogent reasons why governments recognize marriages. Homosexual marriages should also be included. That's what the issue was, and that's what fags won.

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>>684702042
fuck off reddit

>>684711352

Depends on if they kill/harm their dinner.

>>684711352
>>684708689

Ah yes the false equivalency. The favorite "argument" for anti-homosexuals. What constitutes what is socially acceptable is what doesn't hurt an unwilling participant. Homosexuality does not hurt an unwilling participant. If you cannot understand the difference between a harmful and consensual action you have autism.

>>684712337
Why don't you fuck off back to stormfront, reactionary jesusfag, and take the rest of your gay little nazi friends with you. Quit turning 4chan into a cesspit of disgusting moralfaggotry.

>>684711672

No, I never mentioned about falling in love or anything else. I fell in love with the first girl who gave me a blowjob, makes sense fags would work the same way. I'm saying people get annoyed at faggots because it is their sole defining feature. it's like if the only interesting thing about someone is their strange obcession with winnie the pooh, or that the really can only get off while recording themselves spunking on a pony toy. It's fine and dandy, do whatever you want, but don't expect to get any respect if you fucking tell everyone about it.

>>684712587

By that logic if someone consents to being coocked and eaten we should allow it.

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A human being is formed from the union of an egg cell and a sperm cell.

Egg cells carry an X chromosome. Sperm cells carry either an X or a Y chromosome.

If an X sperm cell merges with the egg, the offspring's chromosomes are XX and it is a female offpring.

If a Y sperm cell merges with the egg, the offspring's chromosomes are XY and it is a male offspring.

Sexual relations between two organisms with XY chromosomes are homosexual relations.

That is all.

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>>684712337

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>>684703018
ONCE AGAIN, YOU! MY SON!
HAD PROVE THAT NEWFAGS ARE REALLY FUCKING EASY TO GET THEM INTO TAKE THE BAITU DESU!
YOU! MY SON! ARE THE B8MASTAH!

>>684712819
This. This is why conservatives can't win a court case against homosexuality. Everything goes back to "muh imaginary friend said so in the bible".

>>684703166
Noted. I'll consider it.

>>684712994
thank you mr spider, am i an official oldfag yet?

It's only gay if balls touch.

>>684712931
Hey it's their choice. Give me logical answer otherwise. Also going by logic it would make more sense to outlaw religion than homosexuality. People have killed solely because their religious books tell them to.

>>684712822
>I'm saying people get annoyed at faggots because it is their sole defining feature

That's not a reason to get annoyed. It's a reason to shrug with indifference. That's all I've ever done toward gays. There is nothing more in-your-face about gay culture than there is about, for example, romance books, date movies, love songs, etc. etc.

>>684701863
Yes. Because you are a man having sex with another man.

>>684703328
I can understand the logic behind some of the terms, but when there are fucking 200 or so, I'm not going to take the time to memorize all of them. If people choose to identify by those, by all means, go ahead, but don't expect everyone else to remember that you're demisexual-panromantic-supercalifragilickthisdick-lithocontemporary-subdermal pneumothorax or what the cancerous word that you wear like a badge even fucking means. I don't have time for that.

>>684711329

That happened to me as well. My girlfriend ended up being gay, I had no idea. She broke up with me and moved and ghosted me, I didn't know what happened and it fucked me up for a long time.

I happened upon her facebook page the other day and had a chuckle, it finally all made sense.

>>684701863
Yes, but it's okay to be gay.

>>684712587
I was making no equivalency, just asking a question. Can both not a form of mental illness, strictly by definition? Your argument "it happens in nature" implies that anything that happens "in nature" is a normal, natural act. My argument is no more specious than yours.

>>684712931
I believe there was a case of exactly this in Germany several years ago.

>>684702717
Nope.
Strait people don't find men attractive
Fags do
You're a faggot

>>684704306
>There are many investigations
> All of those that support you are from 1960 or before
> They have all been disproven by peer-reviewed and legitimate research
Ok, bud. Have fun proving that to anyone with fewer chromosomes than you.

>>684703283
Ok fag, whatever you say. Wink wink

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>>684701863
when a man puts his penis into the anus of another male that is gay buttsex. Doesn't matter if the male looks or dresses female, it's still a guy with a dick and a male asshole

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>>684701863
This isn't possible.

>>684705935
Turing's logic machine prototype is indisputably considered to be the first true computing machine by computer science and electronic engineering experts. Some of his theories and tests were so solid that they are still used today, especially in the field of neural network artificial intelligence. Read a book sometime.

Traps are just women with femdicks. Nothing gay about letting them fuck you.

>>684701863
No. If you still want to fuck women you are not gay. You are partially homo sexually inclined if you desire sexual acts with a penis. Decide for yourself what you are

>>684705975
Oh goody, a dumbass trailer park pile of chromosomes piece of shit who couldn't differentiate a logical idea from the ravings of an indoctrinated conservative clusterfuck. Go back to the South. Your cousin misses you.

>>684713742

We probably shouldn't let them consent to being eaten because anybody who would want that is mentally damaged. Same reason we try to help anyone who would try to kill themselves get past it. Wanting to die is a sign of something being seriously wrong with a person.

>>684714715
don't even bother "deciding" what you are, just forget about all that and do what feels good that doesn't hurt people.

>>684705975

Neither of those things are wrong if no one gets hurt and no one's interests are threatened. Pedophiles are dangerous because they tend to hurt children. Not really sure why I should give a fuck if you want to blow a horse, though.

>>684711674
its not average behavior of the human brain and only a minority is affected by it. The brains of trans show physical and psychological differences than the average population. i'm not saying its a bad thing, but it is a disorder.

>>684714221

Do you understand that the people who study this issue and have devoted their lives to psychiatry and neurology pretty much all disagree with you, right? I mean, wtf are you talking about?

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>>684702042
go back to where you came, of course it matters. stop with that horrible argument.

>>684714050
The definition of natural is pertaining to or of nature. Thus anything that happens in nature is natural. I can't even imagine what other restricted definition you would have to concoct to agree with your ideology. Also, what is it that differentiates mankind from nature? It is simply arrogant and ignorant to declare mankind to be different because we can build things (like ants, termites, and a plethora of other organisms), communicate (like birds, dolphins, and primates), or use tools (again, like birds, primates, dolphins, etc.). Mankind is not special in the least.

>>684701863
Post more of this faggot

>>684715160
>i'm not saying its a bad thing, but it is a disorder.

I'm pretty sure that's part of what a disorder is: it has to have some kind of negative dimension (i.e., be a bad thing) that isn't solely the result of the individual's social circumstances.

>>684714816
Okay, well I'm open to that. But comparing wanting to be eaten to homosexuality is comparing two very different things. Since homosexuality is much more widespread among animal species it much less likely to be a serious mental issue than someone wanting to be eaten.

>>684712056
Marriage IS/WAS very much so a religious ceremony, the fags won because the US is a secular nation and marriage is legally recognized/garners benefits from the government. It's a fork in the road that pisses a lot of people off for one reason or another. It is historically institutionalized as the union of a man and female, the two reproduce and are able to make the most of the benefits that come with wedlock fiscally. Gays cannot reproduce(they can now TECHNICALLY, thanks ivf...), it's impossible, so why do they need the word "marriage" when they can receive similar benefits without ever having to worry about a child under the title of a "domestic partnership"? It's not fucking excluding them, it's because it has never been practical historically. Still isn't really. Just another traditional value for the liberals to stomp on in their tirade of "let's all be ignorant together if we can't call each other out" bullshit.

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>>684704728
careful, you might trigger one of the tumbler urchins in the thread that heard of someone a friend of theirs knew who might have offed them self

>>684715434
Asking why the fuck you care what someone else does with their genitalia and another consenting person within the privacy of their own home is a horrible argument? Wouldn't you say the same thing if, all of a sudden, your municipality called a town meeting to discuss the porn you look at, or the fact that your wife likes dirty talk? Or would you just sit there and say "oh well. I would do the same thing if I saw Randy from next door on a Loli thread." It's just strange that people get so offended that other people like different things.

>>684701863
nah

>>684715811
>Marriage IS/WAS very much so a religious ceremony,

Again, that's just false. And it's irrelevant anyway, since there are thousands of Churches in the USA that wanted the right to marry homosexual couples.

>>684701863
id hit it.

>>684715890
I identify as a washing machine, and I am offended by your use of the word "tumbler." I am not just a machine for you fucking humans to use and leave in some room. I have feelings, too.

>>684714931
Unless you and your partner are into BDSM. Then EVERYTHING is fair game.

>>684715503
Thus proving my point - you stated that homosexuality occurs in nature, so we must accept it. I countered that cannibalism occurs in nature, and asked if we should accept that. Then you say it's a fale evuivalency, so I called the original argument specious. Now it's again being stated that since something happens in nature, we as men, are no different than animals. So by that logic, we should be held to no higher a standard than animals. Also, my ideology is I don't give a fuck if dudes bang other dudes. I simply wanted an answer to my original question.