>>684589045
I do that's why i'm doing the bernie or bust thing

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>>684589045
Please kill yourself, that'd be great.

>>684590087
>implying dictatorship is the socialist utopia
>implying fascism or nazism is socialist

Are you even trying?

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>>684590276
>saying the national socialist party wasn't socialist
This nigga serious?

>>684590276
>>684590087
This. The problem with socialist/communist systems in the past were the government systems they were built next to. No example in history provides a democratic government with a socialist/communist economy

The association of hitler and stalin with communist and socialist is a stigma that desperately needs to be removed

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>>684590428
>>684590210
>>684590087

>implying socialism isn't the healthiest form of economy

>>684590428
National socialism was a populist invention to strengthen the national identity for a country in crisis, not to create a worker's state.

Get fucking real

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>>684590531
>The association of hitler and stalin with communist and socialist is a stigma that desperately needs to be removed
Damn shame you can't go full 1984 and just change history, right commie?

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>>684590645

>>684590698
>their socialism wasn't my ideal form of socialism!
Damn reality, always getting in the way of leftist narratives.

Because hierarchies are natural and good, and communism has never ever worked.

>>684590428
National Socialism wasn't socialist in the conventional sense. The exception is Strasserism.

>>684590718
>implying orwellian societies are representable for the communist ideology

>>684590966
>muh real communism
Trotsky go

>>684590966
>implying leftist utopias are possible
>implying they all wouldn't turn into statist nightmares

>>684591068
>implying statism is bad if it creates a healthy, strong society
Communism is bad because it's degenerate, counterproductive dyscivic bullshit, not because it's "oppressive" or some other lolbertarian nonsense.

>>684591202
Hello there, are you the local fascist come to tell us how socialism-- I mean fascism is the way to utopia?

>>684591068
>implying you can be a statist elite when the population decides if you keep your job

>>684591027
Accepting your position as a wage slave in a corporative society is a purely bourgeois idea, without rights we cannot sustain

>>684589045
Because a revolution inevitably just means different tyrants at the top. And a communist/socialist revolution usually means different tyrants at the top followed by economic woes because new tyrants don't understand economics.

>>684591434
Just like in the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, right comrade?

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>>684591414
Yeah.

Yeah niggas

>>684591606
What? no it's absolutely nothing like that at all

the people like the previous leader, they didn't want Un but were too scared to admit it, and even so they don't get a say like you do with that i was saying

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>>684591784
So how is -real- communism supposed to work? Every time it's tried you have an elite political class who murder millions. Seems like a flawed ideology to me.

>>684591899
lolwut? Communism has hardly failed in the passed. Murdering "millions" and having a communist economy aren't correlated at all. I think the main thing they needed to improve on though is how much the people got.

>>684592561
>passed
sad autocorrect, past*

>>684589045
by doing what exactly? smoking dope and arguing about politics? sound plan sir.. our future is bright

>>684592561
>Murdering "millions" and having a communist economy aren't correlated at all
Actually that's fair. Not like I have a problem with ethnic cleansing or something. But every communist economy either failed or morphed into an objectively noncommunist one so it amounts to the same.

>>684591899
It's supposed to be democratic. Lenin was an ass, hell most of communist thinkers where very flawed.

>>684592760
Democracy was a mistake.

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>>684592561
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
Nothing but mass murder, friendo.

>>684590531
>No example in history provides a democratic government with a socialist/communist economy
Perhaps there's a clue why not right there

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>>684592736
Yes so far socialism has failed, that does not mean that we should not continue trying to build a society with good wealth distribution

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>>684592760
Oh of course, the few dozen times communism has been tried were just flawed. The next time communism is tired, it'll really work! Sure, I believe you.

Oh, ye big bad capitalism.
>moneyz rule the world
>brokers speculate with our moneyz
>I don't find work, to get tha moneyz
>(Fuck work, I just want the moneyz to buy me a new iphuck 5 universum T9000)

So, in short: you hate the competitive atmosphere of communism, you feel like left out, and you envy those who have more than you, regardless if it was heritage or hard work that gave them 7 and more figures on their accounts.

And then someone told you about communism / marxism. He told you that our society is devided by class. he told you that you had no other choice than lose. And he told you, if you wanna change something, all workers must unity, so all workers can share what only a few on the top have.

You know what he didn't told you?
Since no one is giving up their stuff without defending it, this means class war. Given that you win, this means ideological trials and cleansing, so no one else grabs and defend his stuff (first atrocity committed).
The the communist state will implement a thought police to make sure that no one falls back into his greedy, selfish (but NATURAL) behavior. This means secret police, deportations, and total surveillance. (2nd atrocity committed).

And third your state will face the issue of people still not wanting to work. But communism only works if everybody works. It doesn't matter what your mental or health condition is, if you don't work, you have no value. The lazy and the sick will become public enemies. The state will make sure that the workers feel like they do the superior thing, so everybody performing less is now the enemy. No welfare. No mercy. Just gulag. (3rd atrocity committed)

GG.
Do you know what is beautiful about communism? Everybody has the chance to rise to the top. And even if you have a worse starting point in the poor part of society, you can get top-jobs with just a grain of brain, or a good market idea/determination, or at least make a decent living with honest, hard work (just like in communism, lol).

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but I am

>>684589045
Because it's stupid

>>684592936
Which part of the communist economy murders people

>>684589045
Socialism no matter its form is NEVER the answer its a TRAP.

>>684593056
m6
There will always be people more successful than you. There's nothing wrong with that. Hierarchies aren't bad, and instead of turning that class envy of yours toward the futile aim of establishing a Communist state, you should work to move up the ladder.

>>684593274
The famines.

>>684593274
Did you read the link? Communist nations always commit mass murder on varying scales. It's history!

>>684593056
So, we take all the wealth, resources and property in the world, put it in a big pile and divide it equally amongst the world's population?

I'll give it five years before the smart ones have relieved the dumb ones of their share, and the dumb ones are cleaning the smart one's' houses, tilling their fields and cooking their food. Who would police it to stop it happening? The smart ones?

>>684593056
Hey, welcome to germany.
We have free, almost unregulated markets, a decent wellfare system, one of the best public healthcares in the world, and also one of the strongest economies in the EU.

We tried socialism with the GDR. Didn't worked. The democratic system was just a facade, since the thought police (StaSi) LITERALLY forced us to vote nothing but SED. Fuck the GDR. Fuck communism. Fuck you.
I have lived in a communist state, attempting to be democratic. But with a economy and society being build on so strict authoritarian norms (yes, communism is a authoritarian idea), will also turn politics and the freedom to decide about your own way in life into a authoritarian decision, made for you already.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, kiddo.

>>684593480
The asswipe dictators do, not the economy

>>684589045
Because workers have proven time and time again that they can't into economy and hurt themselves with everything they push for.
Minimum wage? Bites them in the ass and everyone else, too. More rights in the sense that it's getting harder to fire them? Enjoy your rise of time agency work. Democratical workplace? Sure, fuck the individual rights of the one holding the risks and responsibilities.

You have to raise awareness for people's consuming behaviour, not hard-code economic failure into the system.

The biggest issue I have is that you cannot reach utopia under capitalist economy. Someone will always have to work. People keep complaining about machines taking jobs, when in reality that's a great thing. The only problem is, you need jobs to sustain a decent lifestyle currently. Under a socialist economy with small dips of capitalism, nobody that doesn't want to work will have to work. They can stuff their face all day and play vidya all night and whether or not people want something, it will be made in plenty. If nobody has jobs, how can we distribute luxuries? We give one to everyone - socialism. You want more luxuries? Feel free to do the tiny bit of incredibly mentally draining work that is available for a mesely 5$/hr which is a lot since everything is otherwise free

>>684593612
Then why does every communist society have a dictatorship?

>>684593693
>Someone will always have to work.
Why is that a bad thing? People love feeling like they have a purpose.
Idleness really does lead to degeneracy.

>>684593704
Lenin, Mao and the Soviet Union

>>684593704
Good question, you should figure that out. Also i'm glad we could conclude dictatorship is the bad guy here and not the communist economy.

>>684593764
that's literally what vidya is for

>>684593819
I think you miss the point. Communism is always a dictatorship, there is no other way of having a communist society.

>>684593423
Can't have famine when food is made 5:1 (that is, can feed 5 people in a single meal yet it all goes to 1 person, but for every person)

>>684593890
There is. If people vote for socialists then they can get a socialist society.

socialism is working so well for the EU, isn't it.

>>684593890
And why is that?

>>684593977
But command economies consistently fail to predict how much food will be needed or produced.

>>684593764
this, a thousand times this.
Unless you are mentally retarded, you will want to work to have a daily schedule. Seriously, you degenerate mentally if you don't have anything to do.
And you will leanr this too, as soon as you complete your education and suddenly do nothing.
Some weeks of holiday are not comparable with 1 year and more of no work. In the beginning it is awesome (it definitly was for me), but not long until you don't know what to do with yourself anymore.

Trust me, been there, done that.

>>684589045

>automation of labor will become a thing in your lifetime

yes

>>684589045
Because if my job becomes too costly for an organization, it will be outsourced.

>>684594037
>>684594029
It worked pretty well for several European countries while those countries were white ethnostates.
Now that the EU is being flooded with sandniggers and dindus following the gibs, muh perfect welfare states are starting to break down.

>>684594046
It's more about using technology to pollute the world with an overabundance of food and to not give people "what they might need and maybe a little extra"

>>684594029
And it becomes a nightmare when they go full communism. Have you read any history?

>>684594037
Haha, most socialist parties want to get out of the EU because it is so anti-socialist.

>>684594044
Because communism is at its heart completely against human nature, so they require a violent regime to make people follow communism doctrine.

>>684593850
you are right, suprisingly.
Vidya, especially mmo's can replace a workplace as daily schedule. But that means no family, no progress in life, eternal welfare (also in communism, because communism still uses currency, in case you din't knew), and under communisms, the lazy will be purged.
under capitalism people just pity you, or make fun of you, but no one will attempt to drive you into a gulag.

>>684589045
theres a big grain vault we just have to get to it and then we are free forever!!!

>>684594073
Sorry i can't relate. I joined a field that required decades of education and will probably require more as i go through it.

As a human, you should never want to cease learning. Performing labor is just distracting your mind, not teaching.

>>684594157
>abundance is bad, comrade
>you wouldn't want to be like those decadent kulaks, right
>>>/o/ven

>>684594167
Yeah enough history to know the difference between the shit they were doing in the Soviet Union and the stuff modern socialist want to do.

>>684594086
no

automation of manual labour, maybe.

Then you have a divided, two-tier (or three tier) society. What will the people who can't get their heads round html or Python but who can wire a plug do?

>>684594305
>>>/d/ictactorship
>>>/m/arxism

>>684594346
Even the elite of prorgrammers will struggle to find work in an automated system. Everything is done for you

>>684594272
>people just pity you, or make fun of you
I'm always being pitied and mocked for my house, cars, savings and possessions. It's a burden, but I guess I just have to tolerate my capitalist lot

>>684594343
>Oh yeah, it'll totally work this time! We promise guys, no gulags and no mass murder! We'll pinky swear on it!

And why would anyone believe you?

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>>684594299
If you're a more intellectual person then it's understandable that you wouldn't be drawn to labor
The point is that you have to have something to occupy you besides playing vidya and jerking off, lest you slip into degeneracy.

>>684594371
Mate do you think I'm a commie?

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Mfw I'm a libertarian socialist and people point to state capitalist or social democratic capitalist or even just slightly left-leaning capitalist countries and says thats why socialism doesn't work.

Fuck off, tankies, reactionaries, and tomato socialists.

>>684594299
dude, with education I meant the daily routine of going to school / university. Take away this routine and replace it with nothing, just eternal holidays.

And it doesn't matter if you wake up to work in a factory, or wake up to work in a bureau. Work is work, and it gives you a daily routine.

For a guy claiming to go for higher education you are surprisingly unable to get someones point.

Or do you actually plan to be a eternal student?

>>684594073
That's what hobbies are for

Why do you think people fish? It's outdated, is labor, and is otherwise done for you. It becomes enjoyable when you make it a hobby.

This thread is triggering me

>>684589045
Because I take responsibility for every situation I put myself in.
If I work for minimum wage, why should I expect to be able to afford a cell phone, a car, a house, and a family?

>>684590867
>National Socialism wasn't socialist in the conventional sense.

No true Scotsmen huh...

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>>684594549
>libertarian socialist
I've never heard a better oxymoron!

>>684594597
what a deterministically meaningless statement

do you subscribe to fate.weekly too?

>>684590867
>National Socialism wasn't socialist in the conventional sense
so you're saying when power is given to political leaders, things go wrong? I never would have thought.

>>684594483
so, no one has ever made fun of you for putting vidya up as valid replacement for a work-schedule, or are you just too ashamed to mention it outside of this shroud of anonymity?

Unless you are not the previous anon, you are a giant hypocrite, and intellectual dishonest. Lets your point look so much better, m8.

>>684594574
I and everyone else should strive to be an eternal student.

If people want something to do, they will find something trust me. You're envisioning a future of everyone sitting on their ass and twiddling their thumbs as they watch TV

>>684594729
how is it meaningless? If you don't like how much you get paid, find a new job. The only one forcing you to work there is you.

>>684589045
I do in theory
but it practice what can I do?

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>>684594821
>why shouldn't a job be able to support daily life

It's like you think getting a job (and where at) is a choice

>>684589045
because they will take away my food truck, xbox and apple jacks

>>684594900
you can afford the basic necessities of life with minimum wage ($7.25). you just won't afford a car, your own home, etc. You can rent an apartment, take the bus, etc.

>>684594715

You think I havent heard of this before?

A libertarian socialist is someone who advocates for worker ownership of the means of production and the abolition of the state in order to transition go said society.>>684594715


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism?wprov=sfla1
https://youtu.be/PIfKrI6Q_W8

>>684594765
>so, no one has ever made fun of you for putting vidya up as valid replacement for a work-schedule
No, because I didn't, I work for a living and I don't play vidya.

I also don't think vidya is a replacement, except there will be a hierarchy of success in the virtual world in the same way they there is is the real world

everyone watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68JLWyPxt7g

>>684594549
Libertarian socialists are even more LARPy than actual communists. How about you consider the only radical ideology that even had a modicum of success?

>>684594603
>>684594747
Socialism is collectivist in the widest sense. Marx fantasized about a global proletarian uprising. National Socialism is much more racially and nationalistically oriented, and while it definitely advocated for socialist policies within the state, everyone was expected to work for the good of the nation. This is true of fascism in general, not just Nazism.

>>684594900
>muh wage slavery
Learn some marketable skills and get a job you commie jew fuck

>>684594578
you do know that most people make their work into their hobby, right?
Even while doing crude, manual work, f.e. road-maintenance, you meet your co-workers, who are as good as your friends at that point.

So yea, hobbies are awesome, but they feel empty if you have nothing else.

>>684595110
no, marx fantasized about having power. All politicians do, no matter what guise they use. He knew that it wouldn't work in practice.

>>684595110

Revolutionary Catalonia, the Free Territory of Ukraine, the Zapatistas in Mexico, and Rojava says otherwise. I could probably think of a few more, but yeah.

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>>684595030
Listen kid, libertarianism is a capitalist philosophy that wants optimal individual freedoms, both personal and economic. You can't have one without the other. Socialism on the other hand wants group dominance and the crushing of the individual via a tyrant state. Educate yourself before you humiliate yourself again.

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I worked hard and got good grades in highschool, then went to a decent engineering school, and now make ~200k/year + stock grants.
My family does not own any businesses or have political connections.

I have sympathy if you have health issues prevent you for pursuing a career, otherwise fuck off really - the US is a pretty fair meritocracy.

>>684595110
that's strange. Most countries that use socialism have a lower GDP per capita than India.

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>>684594549
how do libertarian socialist plan to stop an individual that tries to start a small private company?

I only hear 2 options
1. that no one will like to because every single one of the people that will ever live will allways and forever think alike, and never want to break the socialist dream

2. that the economy will forever be an utopia where nothing ever goes wrong so there's no need for a private worker doing any part of the work

they never acknowledge option 3
a state-like entity that pursues, stops and possibly punishes any private worker that tries to work and make profit away from the Utopian production system

>>684590718
1984 was written by a fucking socialist you twat.

>>684595447
>meritocracy
you misspelled oligarchy

>>684594999
I'm surprised you don't think owning a car, a home, a phone, and having for access to the largest database of information aren't basic life necessities.

Where I live, 1-room apartments cost ~$1200 monthly. With food, i'd probably say I could live off of 20-40 dollars a week, so let's just say $120 a month. With just living and eating i'm paying. Bus wages are about $2.50 a day or another $70 per mo. We're at about $1400/mo and on a 40h work schedule at 7.25 i'm getting 1160 before tax reductions, so probably bringing home 900 at best (more realisticly 750-850) There's no way for me to pay for that unless i live with someone else, which increases the price of living and will still be extremely close to covering. That's a problem

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>>684595388

Libertarianism referred to an anti statist ideology originally. It's first use as a political term was in a letter written from Dejacques to Proudhon, both socialists.

We used it long before the right co-opted the term.

>>684595269
Marx wasn't a politician, he was an overeducated NEET living off Engels.
If he lived today he'd be shitposting on /r9k/ about how getting a job is for cucks.

>>684595337
None of which existed for more than a few years and all of which collapsed after either the idiots running them started infighting, or outside powers able to coordinate themselves better crushed them.
Anarchism isn't LARPy just because it's dyscivic. It's LARPy because it flat out can't sustain itself for any long period of time, nor defend itself from outside threats. At least Stalinism has that point in its favor.

>>684589045
Because most of them would be the first to die in a workers revolution

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>>684595631
So a socialist wrote about how shitty a socialist utopia would be? Okay, that makes all the sense.

>>684594792
no, that is what you implied by thiniking everybody should strife to be a eternal student (the partying, not working, lazy part of society). Don't even try to strawmen me.

what I expect from communism is thought-police, dictatorship and a social obligation to work, without the slightest mercy for those who can't.

everybody is the same. No one is allowed to not work, since that would be unequal to the others. And to make everything fair and equal, everybody will be forced down the same mold.
Philosophy dies, since it questions the system and equality. Art only exists within the limited pre-sets of the system. Scientific development is secondary, as only the status quo - absolute equality - matters.

What kind of development is going to happen without competition?

>>684595169
Managing finances shouldn't be an important aspect in life. Superstar shit like curing diseases and navigating the cosmos are. Can't do things that cost money with no return-value if everyone is money hungry. If people can get more - they will. Leaving no room for worthwhile advances

You're all cunts.

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>>684595688
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You lefties are so pathetic you let others steal your own labels??

>>684595763

There are different tendencies of socialism. One of the main divides is the use of the state. Here is where George Orwell, who fought in the Spanish Civil War on the side of the socialists and anarchists, disagrees with Marxism-Leninism.

>>684595632
the smartest among us should rule, yes.

>>684595763
no, a socialist wrote about the dangers of totalitarianism superseding democratic socialism.

Don't take my word for it, actually look up George Orwell

>>684595226
That kind of supports my argument though. If someone can get into road work labor, they can easily get into ant watching or scootering just as well. You don't need a job to feel worthwhile, and there are plenty of people that have already realized that. I know some very proud NEETs

>>684595337
im mexican, zapatistas haven't amounted to anything, they live in almost the same poverty condition than other indian communities, the only improvements have been because leftist university teachers and students subsidize them

they receive food, supplies, medicine and money from the capitals bourgeois students that believe they are revolutionaries, and from yurop, mainly ETA sympathizers and other leftists

>>684595946
Socialists who want to exterminate group A, and socialists who want to exterminate group B. Great choices comrade! No wonder you lefties fight each other all the time.

>>684595941

In the US especially, the dominant and prevailing class is always in favour of the status quo - that status quo being capitalism. Like how Hitler used "national socialism" to gain the support of the working class, so did these people use libertarianism in the same way - and as they are the dominating class, it's not as simple as you think.

>>684595650
well that's because you only work 40 hours a week. When I was in high school I would have school from 8-3 (7 hours 5 days a week = 35 hours a week) and a part time job where I worked 20 hours a week. That's a 55 hour week. Why do you only work 40 hours? that's an easy solution. Get a new job. If you can't find a new job, learn a skill that has value and find a trade in that.

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>>684596038
If he was against totalitarianism, then why was he a socialist??

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>>684595053
so you make a point, without making it, only to reinforce it in the next line?

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>>684596128
B-but muh perfect classless society!
>>684596181
Hitler was not part of the dominant class before he came to power.
>>684596252
Because anarchists honestly believe that their ideology is workable.

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>>684596181
Here we go... the "we're the victim" mentality of the left. Yes, you're sooooo opressed, it's capitalism / the patriarchy / <insert conspiracy theory here> that's keeping you from succeeding in life! Take some responsibility in your life, stop blaming others for your failure in life.

>>684596169

Except they have widely differing ideologies - much more inherently different than conservatives and liberals (I use that word in the US sense, you're all fucking liberals as far as I'm concerned). In the Spanish Civil War, the socialists were fighting against actual fascism. Unless you're fine with fascism (which I wouldn't be surprised with in this thread), I think you wouldn't want fascism either.

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Has someone posted this yet?

>>684596460
It pleases me that the International Brigades failed utterly.

>>684589045
If it's inevitable my support doesn't mean jack.

>>684596252
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it."

>>684595838
Partying? This isn't the 1990s, you don't go to higher education for social connections. During semester days i spend a majority of my waking freetime on my work. That's simply insulting. Being an eternal student means every time you grasp a subject, it becomes the foothold for a new one, and this system repeats forever.

What you should expect from the communism everyone in this thread is speaking of is that nobody is allowed to work, not the opposite. You're doing what many are and that is comparing the historic communism to revivals of the system. I also don't know why you think competition will cease to exist

>>684596121
dude, the point is that working for money is no slave-labor. This is the opposite of what you're saying.

And your "very proud NEETS" are not proud, they are in denial.
NEET == Not in Education, Employment, or Training
They literally do nothing. And they feel as fulfilled as such. A NEET is the embody-ment of a thumb-dwindling lazy ass in front of his TV / Internet / Vidya.

You can put the "make fun of me"-sign down now.

>>684596460
And how do they vary? Who they want to kill most of all? How they violently come to power?

>>684596619
Wow, I lost so much respect for him. He sounds like an idiot who actually believed in leftist propaganda that socialism isn't totalitarian.

>>684596630
Yea, you are either intellectual dishonest, or in denial.
I am done here.

>inb4 "no arguments anymore?"
Correct, none that you would understand, hence I end this chain of replies.
You are not ready to reconsider your position, and you have presented nothing to make me reconsider mine. Dead end ahead.

>People still think Stalin, Mao, Castro etc. were socialists because their regimes' propaganda claimed they were.

Just stop. By all means, they were all totalitarian dictators who used economic or war disasters to enforce their rule and then terrorized their nations to stay in power.

By all means, they were as much of fascists as Hitler, only more hypocritical.

>>684596926

Tell me what you specifically have against the democratic ownership of the means of production.

>>684596207
I personally only work 20 hours a week and live on campus.

You're telling me to afford to live in an apartment i must commit more than 50% of my freetime to work? How am i supposed to learn a trade under those conditions?

Work != Merit

>>684597050
Fascism means a specific thing. It's not the same as totalitarianism.
Stalin and Mao were commies, and they led their countries as well as commies could. Own it, instead of pretending that Catalonia was relevant.

>>684597050
>By all means, they were all totalitarian dictators who used economic or war disasters to enforce their rule and then terrorized their nations to stay in power.
Congratulation, you just described communism.

>>684597142
Democracy was a mistake and should probably be abolished.

>>684597142
It means stealing the property of individuals and giving it to idiots who wouldn't know what to do with it for the sake of the "group". It's theft and it never works.

>>684597219

A constructive argument all around.

Well done, you've destroyed socialism at its core.

>>684597050
Oh look, a lefty who refuses to acknowledge the reality that communism is just as violent as fascism. Color me surprised.

>>684597357
The difference is that one works and once doesn't.

>>684597041
I hate to eat your words but if you weren't going to respond with anything important then you shouldn't have responded at all, really worthless post for a serious discussion

>>684597356
yea, I have, multiple times actually. In the thread alone.
>>684593093
>>684593567
>>684594073
>>684595838
enjoy the read and better come back with some good points.

You're giving the average /b/tard way too much merit.

Ignorance is celebrated in general society and revered on this site.

>>684597289

Worker cooperatives like Mondragon would disagree with you. While not perfect, as they still must operate in a capitalist economy, they (alongside thousands of other worker cooperatives around the world) show that it DOES work.

>>684596716
I don't understand the point of your first line. Where did slave-labor come into play?

And No, half of them are hardly ever in the home. They find shit to do, be it clubs, the gym, or whatever the hell they do. You are using what you have at your own disposal as a template for what is available to other people when really you [ad hominem incoming] just sound like a really boring person

>>684594715
I don't think it's exclusionary. Everything is on a spectrum, hard labels don't really work. If you were to think about it for three seconds you'd realize that a libertarian socialist wants a regulated welfare state and a mostly free economy.

>>684597779
That's a bit different. They operate in capitalist economies and weren't seized from private owners.

>>684597612

Please stop equating Marxism-Leninism with Libertarian Socialism. I hate the Soviet Union and the GDR as well - because they were statist authoritarian countries.

>>684597219
That's not what it says at all on all definitions of communism though

Really what i think he described is your skewed interpretation of communism

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>>684594549
Because you are the same in the economic sense

"libertarian" socialist also want to take over the production system, centralize it and stop any private economic activity

you just say it's better than totalitarian socialism because it was "democratic" vote that stops private industry

like, lets say the community owns all the apple production, it's run ""democratically"m but there was a plague this year, there's a shortages of apples, but people still demand more apples

so a guy that has a few apple trees around his house starts picking them and tries to exchange them for other things, that is, profit

you will act the same as the USSR, confiscate his shit, probably throw him to jail or a reeducation center that teaches him that there can be no private property ever

that he can't be an individual, that everything is to be for the collective

yeah, you will have faggots and weed because oh muh liberties, but your economy will fail like every other socialist idea ever, and it will be because of centralized dictatorship

>>684597213
>College student

Opinion discarded.

>>684589045
Because it's the End of History.

>>684597911

Like I said, its not perfect as they are still within the framework of capitalism.

Who said the means of production had to be seized and what difference would that make anyways.

>>684594747
Give it up, man. They talk of a utopia that works int heir heads, yet they never seem to perceive the fact that in order to get there they'd have to establish an authoritarian state first, because they have to take away individual rights and people don't want that. Even if vanilla socialism would work, the way to get there is corrupted and they don't see it.

>>684597962
>muh magical anarchist utopia
>everyone will be nice once it's every man for himself

>>684597905
>regulated welfare state
No real libertarian wants a state fucking up anything with any sort of intervention.

>>684598134
I'm a Nazi, you nigger.
>>684598103
Francis Fukuyama, please go. You are literally a meme.

>>684589045
But I do tho

>>684597962
Go to bed kiddo, you have school in the morning.

>>684595650
>where I live
Maybe a lower income limits your choices to where to life, and rightly so.

>>684598076

But I don't argue for a centralised economy?

That's kind of against the whole principle of my political philosophy.

I'd also like to say that socialism doesn't entail planned economies. Merely democratic and worker ownership of the means of production.

>>684598292
But political democracy is bad and leads to bad things. Why would economic democracy be any better?

>>684590428
So by your logic the People's Republic of China would not be socialist bride
because it's a republic?

>>684598285

Nice meme, kiddo.

>>684597861
because you are the one telling me that manual labor is obsolete, and not only that, you must think it's cruel, else you wouldn't accept the 3 attrocities of communism to eradicate (but actually enforce) it.

In the beginning you did hunt / gather to survive
Then you fought rivaling tribes to survive
Then you fought rivaling civilizations to survive
Then you fought authoritarian systems to survive (monarchy, theocracy, autocraty, communism)
Now you have nothing but your own lack of motivation to fight. But since you struggle with that, you want to go one step back on the ladder?

Earn money, have a decent living. As simple as that. everybody gets exactly what he's working for. Our society is free. And yes, it has its flaws. Like those inheriting wealth. But at least their ancestors were working at some point so these brats can enjoy it now. So taking it away, even from the most flamboyant of brats, will do nothing but destroy the live-work of their ancestor. GG.

>>684598116
That's what would have to happen with our economy if we went commie, you'd kill the owners of the means of production for the good of the people and take it as your own.

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>>684598076

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>>684598250
The end of the Cold War has signaled the final stage of the progress of human history. Every dialectic has been resolved and every alternative to Liberalism has been discredited and destroyed.

>>684597213
>You're telling me to afford to live in an apartment i must commit more than 50% of my freetime to work?
Yes, you lazy twat. You're not getting anything for free because you don't deserve it. No one does. Now carry the fuck on and stop crying.

>>684597996
you mean reality?
Yea, reality is really skewed...

"National-socialism: A system that wishes to strengthen its own culture and give everybody the security of a good life."
Sounds good on paper, until you read the gas-bill.

because most of the workers is like this guys in video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCkT1NAJoaI

>>684598371

I'd argue that political democracy is bad right now because of the narrow corporate interest groups that influence it. I'm not claiming that either political or economic democracy is the perfect end-all be-all, but I don't think there is one and that democracy is the best we've got, realistically speaking.

>>684598402
not the previous anon, but he has a point.

>>684598607
Except it hasn't. All alternatives to Marx-inspired liberalism have been discredited in the minds of the ivory-tower Western elite, but the elites of a dying, decadent civilization don't always have the best perspective.

>>684597142
There's a reason why a worker is only a worker and someone else ownes a business. Not all people are equally capable and giving the empirically proven incapable a say is hard coding failure into the system. Also workers don't carry the risks and responsibilities. If the company that employs them goes bankrupt, they lose their job, but the employer might end up with huge amounts of debts and a ruined reputation. What on earth makes you think that some 80 IQ coffe cup filler should have a say in the company politics of star bucks?

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>>684598703
A retrenchment into repatriomialisation is still a threat to Liberal democracy, but this is not an alternative system but is instead a mere weakening of institutions.

>>684598619
It sounds great on paper because it is great in practice. What isn't great in practice is a totalitarian government. You really think capitalism would work at all under your "Socialist Scandals"? They would thrive in capitalism - it's the worst of all the previous systems. The government doesn't need to threaten you to get you to work, they pull strings and make you think what you're doing is right

>>684598739

>"we shouldn't work towards a better society because it's a utopia dream"
>"UGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO SHIT TODAY"

Literally every child on this thread.

>>684598616
but when people outnumber available jobs 100:1?

>>684598676
>wut

>>684598703
This.
A democracy can't make sure that the people in leading positions are doing a good job, but it makes sure that they're not doing a bad one.

>>684598292
>socialism doesn't entail planned economies
yes it does, you utter retard

other wise is just capitalism

right now in this capitalist world you could go and live in a hippie commune, were everything is shared equally
You can go and start a company that builds shoes that has no bosses and every worker gets the same wage

no one is stopping you

in a socialist world I cant go and start any sort of private enterprise

That is true for every socialist variation ever, you will try to stop me, you would mostly likely use force and coercion

>>684598927
>when people try to implement this thing it fails catastrophically
>YOU JUST AREN'T TRYING HARD ENOUGH REEEEE

>>684598987
Cancerfighting.

>>684598927
Working towards a better future leads to the USSR or North Korea. Why risk such horrors again?

>>684589045

>>>/leftypol/

>>684598967
That's not the case. Also fewer immigration might help with that. Why let incapable people in to compete with your local incapable people?

>>684598087
Kek

>>684599007

>market socialism don't real guis, go home we're done

>>684597218
>>684597219
>>684597357
You're all missing the point.

The actual communism has never truly existed and what you're claiming to be communism is merely bureaucratic tyranny - a grotesque mockery of Marx's ideas, at best.

And associating those "commies" with socialism is simply a mistake. Lenin even explicitly stated at one point that he "ceased to be a socialist and became a communist".

>>684599081

Because the alternative is the equivalent of saying that we should stay in a caveman era society because societal progress is scary?

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>>684598746
>Implying Marx inspired liberalism.
>Thinks civilization is dying.
>Confirmed pleb.

We have the best education and the broadest access to information. Tell me, where is your revolution going to come from? The working class? The White race? My sides are prepared for take off.

>>684599095
It's not the case yet, no. But it most certainly is starting to become the case. Also, capitalism makes for greedy individuals in power abusing their already overly large sum of money. People will work just as hard for merit as they would be money

>>684598746
except that marx did not inspire any liberal societies.
He inspired a authoritarian one, one where even religion can serve as a controll tool for the masses.

What he wanted to end was inequality of the classes, but not with freedom for everyone.
He understood very well that his ideas would require a strong, regulating system on top of it.

thought police, cultural control via religion, minimum work for minimum outcome (because abundance is decadence) for all. That was his proposal.

>>684599303

Well at least this guy knows that MARXISM AND LIBERALISM ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

>>684599272
How is moving to a society based on totalitarianism progress???

>>684598924
>because it is great in practice
back to >>>/pol/

>>684598927
the point I meant was that this child should go to bed.

Socialism works on bunch of democratic countries. Problem is that new class-war, fought by Bildenbergs and other illuminaties aim to kill majority of population in near future. That means majority if not all of you pro-capitalist fools too. International elite knows no limits when it becomes to parties; they are democrats, republicans, socialists, communists... and they want you dead. Just believe in your "democratic" fantasies that everything is fine and that you or your voice matters. Our only hope is global revolution of masses if/when elite's deception is noticed en masse. I just hope it's before it's not too late.

Somewhat relevant.

Reddit is hated here but listen. It's a platform where anyone can make an anonymous account and post anything. Every poster has virtually equal access and position starting out. Posts and users are rewarded with karma points. You post something of value to the site, you earn karma points.

Turns out that the top 1% of the millions and millions of Reddit users have 47% of all the karma.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/425zk4/1_of_reddit_has_47_of_all_karma_earned_in_2015_oc/
>1% of reddit has 47% of all karma earned

1% of the users are making the most valuable content and getting the most karma points. Is this an accurate representation of the real world in terms of wealth and power? Do the top 1% have most of it because that's just the way we are as humans?

>>684599232
>The actual communism has never truly existed
Because the silly theory on paper always becomes 1984 when tried IRL.

Because I payed attention to the Russian Revolutions in history class

>>684599303
Classical liberalism doesn't exist anymore, my slant-eyed friend. The entire mainstream political discourse is infused with Marxist thought, and alternate methods of governance, exemplified by the Chinese and the Islamic Middle East, are hot on the heels of Western democracy.

The only way we can save our civilization is fascism. We need a Caesar.

>>684599311
>capitalism makes for greedy individuals in power abusing their already overly large sum of money
That's not a flaw of capitalism, that's a flaw of humans. Every other system you could think of will have exactly that: People being bought. At least capitalism gives people a chance to become wealthy by their own merit, while in every other (read: non-capitalistic) systems the ONLY way to become walthy is by being a criminal. In other words you'd have the exact same super rich, but the general population would be even more poor.

>>684589045
This post reminds me of what Obama wants to call criminals now.
Justice system subjects lol

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>>684595447
>meritocracy
>President George W. Bush
choose one

>>684599406

Question.

Do you suppose that democracy is a generally good thing and that we should generally move towards it?

If so, perhaps we should strive for democracy in more than just one sphere of society?

If you agree, you've just agreed with socialism - the democratic ownership of the means of production. There isn't anything inherently authoritarian in that - much less so than the HIERARCHICAL PRIVATE OWNERSHIP OF THR MOP.

>>684599232
see
>>684599340
nice communism that you're promoting, m8

>>684599514
Interesting, thanks for sharing that.

>>684589045
Because history goes in cycles.

>>684599406
Moving forward isn't always good.

>>684599643
>Do you suppose that democracy is a generally good thing and that we should generally move towards it?
Not really. Stupid people choose stupid governments. We need smart people running things.

>If so, perhaps we should strive for democracy in more than just one sphere of society?
That would be a bad idea... Look at the idiots that get elected nowadays. Why would we want the economy to be governed that way?

>If you agree, you've just agreed with socialism - the democratic ownership of the means of production.
Good thing I didn't agree then! Look at how the USSR and North Korea turned out.

>>684599736

And the first stage of society was what some people might call primitive communism. Anthropologists and historians agree with me on this.

>>684599514
People that want more will strive to get more and will feed on that feeling.

>>684599514
funnily it shares more communist aspects:
>explain shadow-banning

thought police is surely on your heels

>>684599772
Exactly my point. If "forwards" means less freedom, fuck it.

>>684599906
Forward typically means less freedom in the minds of progressives.
We have to go back.

>>684599952
Fug. I meant that forward means more freedom.
We need less.

>>684599854

How can you guarantee that smart people WILL run society if no one but an aristocracy (READ: NOT MERITOCRACY) can rise to such a position?

>>684599598
Fair enough. Although my counterargument could be we should be adopting the system the works well on humans, leaving as little opportunity for greed as possible - though i don't think one has been projected (even if it were, it'd be silenced by the current in power for the current in power to remain the current in power)

>>684599952
One idea in history that holds my attention are Victorian work houses for the poor. We should do something like this instead of welfare, we'd save so much money!

>>684600029
Better that than tyranny of the majority of fools.

>>684599854

>democracy
>totalitarianism
>choose

>>684600059
I actually second that. The welfare system is one of the most broken systems in our country.

>>684599643
Democracy is bad.

Some anon just posted something about a minority having a majority. That seems to go for everything. Which means only a small amount of the population as the intellect and wisdom to choose what's best for the population as a whole, though they lack the weight for the proper decisions because they are just the minority

>>684600029
I don't see any laws to forbid me to do stuff unless I have a certain amount of money.
>muh financial aristocracy

Dude, stop sucking up these flawed metaphors. They simply do not apply.

>>684600185
Have the unemployed and retarded working for their food? Unthinkable in today's society sadly.

>>684600056
There really isn't much silencing going on in the west. Propaganda, sure, but silencing? Not really. Maybe from the regressive left, but that can't uphold for long, it's already collapsing in on itself.

But other than that I agree, we haven't thought of a system that is impossible to trick (cough, skynet, but who wants that?).

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>>684599575

Get a load of this guy. He thinks ISIS could conquer Europe. Regardless, let's say there's something to your White working class fantasy. There isn't, but let's say there is. Where is this fascist revolutions going to come from? Trump? 4chan? You and your buddies?

>>684600116

For fun, why would the tyranny of the majority be worse than actual tyranny?

It's because you're not part of that majority and you secretly think you'll be in the aristocracy, won't you?

>>684599166
>market socialism
again, depending of the variation of that ideology is either capitalism with the owners of the private property sharing the profits, or socialist coping out of calling themselves authoritarian by shifting the blame on a "democratic" vote

or, a centralized government deciding what you can have and you cant have

some of them want you to have personal property (a house, a bike, etc)
but no private property (no land to lease, no industrial production, etc)

they will also stop you from lending money and gaining interests

that is, that is, "officials" would have the power to stop two individuals having a private agreement

this are ideas proposed by "anarchists" like Pierre Joseph Proudhon and his followers

if you stop any kind of ownership or private deal, you are not a libertarian, if you believe in increasing market conditions, you are not a socialist

this ideas have been debated for more that 100 years, it's not just me saying this

>>684600321
Well, ISIS is conquering Europe. So there's that.

>>684591899
The fact that russia formed a totolitarian state is not because of communism, it is because of corruption, which still happens there today. The united states has minimal corruption and it could work, it's like saying capitalism won't work just look ar brazil, where the rich take advantage of the poor. Communism is the future, once robots have taken all of our jobs we will have no way to make money, and old the rich will have it, creating giant wage gaps.

>>684600431
The depths of your humiliation and shame must be profound.