>>681409289
Your not even trying

Science isn't a religion so your question is invalid.

>>681409289
Yeah this is weak, you have better ones.

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>>681409675
Why do you say that?

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I'm a practitioner of Theravada Buddhism. I believe in no dieties, but that there is a supernatural cosmic law above the measurement of modern science. By definition, I am an Atheist with religious beliefs. Try again.

>>681410211
Because science ain't religion

>>681410211
No, no, no.. go back and troll this better. Go back to the whole mathematician argument.

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>>681410357
You said that. But why do you say that?

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>>681409289

I like OP. He's been on /b/ as long as I have with the same lame crap.

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>>681410460
Not biting. Sage

>>681410534
Yeah it's like the tides, you can always count on it.

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>>681409289
The answer is in your question...

It's separation of Church and state, not separation of Scientology and state

>>681410460
>Fag: The sky is blue.
>>Uberfaggot: You said that. But why do you say that?

You're not even trying. You must be truly pathetic.

fucking saged

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>>681410714
That's more or less what I expected. Atheists talk a lot of shit, but when they're asked why they believe something they always run away.

ur b8 is weak m8

>>681410793
That's like saying

>it's the separation of church and state, not the separation of mosque and state. Allahu akbar!

Want to try again?

>>681410828
The sky being blue is a fact. But science is the religion of atheists, and you have no coherent argument against that.

OP raises a good point.

Empirical thought, and the pragmatism that follows, is accepted as the the only acceptable philosophy in modern political discussion. The difference between the pragmatist and the idealist is but a different interpretation of the empirical data.

Why do we accept empiricism and the pragmatics that follow without real question?
(I mean other than the fact that it is the most effective tool for discovery and application yet developed by mankind)

OP's right. Keep your fucking science religion out of politics, hypocritical atheists

>>681410460
Because religion is unquestioning belief by faith, and science is tentative belief in evidence.

I have a question. Why the Empress from Never Ending Story? Is it symbolic that this is the never ending shit bait meme?

>>681411401

I've also always wondered this.

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>>681411079
>it's the separation of church and state, not the separation of mosque and state.

You are correct. Church, not mosque, temple, or pavilion.

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>>681411291
>religion is unquestioning belief by faith
Is this just a definition you made up just now? Typical.

Anyway, you have faith in evidence. F, speak to me after class.

>>681411401
It's his trademark. Instantly recognizable.

OP basically owns atheists here. Your philosophy is making truth claims about the nature of reality, the universe and life and death. It is de facto a religion. Keep it out of politics.

Thanks and kind regards.

>>681411845
Yes, but why? Why not some other symbol? Of all the things in the world...

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>science is your religion
Is this faggot OP trying ? Or are they Josh Feuerstein stupid?

>Science is a religion
>Religion is the opium of the masses
>Science is a drug

Lets all stop arguing and just get high

>>681412010
sauce please

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>>681412338
By all means, feel free to prove me wrong.

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>>681411664
I have but a tentative belief in evidence. I am able and willing to change my belief with the presentation of contradictory evidence.

That is the difference between science and a dogmatic religious beliefs.

>>681412102
I figure equal parts cringe and equal parts ironic. This guy does this religion thread all day picks fictional character that is inside a fictional movie.

>>681410950
They're not running away, your queston is broken.

>Same bait every day
>None ever learns
Y'all niggas are dumb.

>>681409289
lol

>>681412338

No, he is pretty much spot on. Science IS a religion, if we define religion as a philosophy that makes claims of truth over the nature of the universe and reality, and life and death. Science is indeed a religion and it should stay the fuck out of politics.

>>681411951
I don't think that's true, please cite your sources

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>>681412528
You have only listed an arbitrary definition of religion designed to a priori exclude your (flawed) beliefs.

Please list a commonly accepted definition of religion and then explain how science doesn't fall into it.

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>>681410211
Because science is factual. Old hebrew mumbo jumbo is not factual.

>>681410283
Note the distinct lack of response where op considers and tries to understand your viewpoint.

>>681412748
See this is OP arguing themself to hype up the argument

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>>681412568
A question cannot be broken. It can only be inconvenient to answer.

>>681409289

You should try harder next time. Try asking for you older brother, I mean, that one that is 12yo.

>>681412748
Other than being wrong in every possible way, that's a good point.

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>>681411951
Not even close. Science isn't dogmatic, but subject to change with new evidence.

Religion is a dogmatic belief in something because of a fallacious argument from authority.

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>>681412934
"Old hebrew mumbo jumbo is not factual."

But it is. God exists.

>>681412748
So science is a religion if you broaden the definition of religion to include any mode of thought. By your logic all philosophies that have ever existed are religions. Your definition is stupid, therefore your point is invalid.

>>681412813

I don't care what you think is true. Science claims it knows what is true. Science is a religion.

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>>681413239
prove it.

>>681413050
No, a question can be broken. Example "why do all christains worship Satan's penis?"

>>681412910
>Please list a commonly accepted definition of religion and then explain how science doesn't fall into it.

I have done both. Give your 'common' definition of religion, and I will explain how science doesn't fit.

>>681413050
Since the car is green, why is the green car blue?

Broken Question.

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>>681413239

>>681413308
Name one example of a dogmatic truth claim made by science.

>>681413239
Wow I am disappointed you troll better than this... slipping.

>>681412528
I have but a tentative belief in religion. I am able and willing to change my belief with the presentation of contradictory evidence. It can go both ways. A lot of atheist arguments can be easily taken and applied from the viewpoint of religion. That's why this question is still discussed. The solution isn't as obvious as you think it is.

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>>681413496
That question can simply be answered by saying "they don't."

There is no excuse for refusing to respond, except cowardice.

>>681413261

It doesn't include "any mode of thought", learn to fucking read. It is defined by it's claims of truth over the nature of reality.

The fact that there are those out there that try and push the idea that atheism is a religion makes me so mad, I could shit. YEAH. As far as I'm aware, atheism has no real characteristics of religion (including belief in any deities, practice of any rituals or prayer, no holidays, etc. etc. etc.). There is no transcendental values, no "bigger meaning" to our existence, and no personal/moral values influenced by typical religions. What's left? Idk, reasoning, the need for proof.
None of that " That's bad, God doesn't like that" horse shit.

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>>681413527
You have not. you have made up a definition on the spot. Nice try though.

I can't believe I just had to explain even that to you. I'm constantly amazed at just how stupid atheists really are.

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>>681413308
But science does not claim to know what is true. It merely gives an explanation that fits all the evidence. That explanation is subject to change with new evidence or a better explanation.

Here, i got you this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

>>681413673

evolution claimed as "fact". That's a pretty fucking bold claim. It presents a claim of truth over the nature of all life, and if you want an example of dogmatism, I present you with Prof Richard Dawkins.

>>681413855
>practice of any rituals or prayer
What is the scientific method?

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>>681414022
>science does not claim to know what is true
Then stop forcing it into public schools.

>>681413801
All political ideologies make claims about some facets of the nature of reality, therefore by your definition, all ideologies are religious. Sorry dude, your definition is way the fuck to broad and can be interpreted to apply to anything.

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>>681409289
i know its scary that your going to die bro.. but you need to stop worry about whats going to happen and stop posting this fucking thread

>>681414125
please show me where anyone has ever claimed evolution as a fact.

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>>681413785
If your belief in religion is tentative, then just what is it that you believe in? What evidence is there to support that belief?

>>681414019
Take a nap.

>>681414479

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=evolution+fact+richard+dawkins

>>681413796
And the answer to your initial question is similar, science cannot be religious by definition. Your question is broken because it is based on an absurd false assumption. Just like my example....

>>681413239
>worshipping a dead kike on a stick

shlomo please, get the fuck out of our white culture and stay out you jewish faggot

>>681414479
http://notjustatheory.com/

>>681414019
Nice b8 m8

Most know how to dictionary

>>681414479

You're welcome

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>>681414721
>by definition
What is this definition of which you speak?

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>>681414418
>disagreeing with teaching children about an important area of study, which without we wouldn't have the magical portals to other realms that we're sitting in front of right now.

Bitch shut the fuck up.

No one "forces" science into schools because it's fact, we need to learn it, because it's undoubtedly true. Unlike some bullshit fairy tales that some jews wrote down one day.

>>681414785
Funny, I didn't see anything about "blind faith" in the dictionary definition

checkmate athiests

ITT: ATHEISTS GET FUCKING BUTT BLASTED

>>681414920
why do you have so little pride in your own culture that you have to look to the fucking middle east of all places for your spirituality?

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>>681410357
Thank you
/thread

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How much time has this nigger wasted with the same fucking thread
Opisfag

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This nigger posts this 8000 times a day every day and people STILL bite. Not even ironically people genuinely respond. Its amazing. Its the alpha and the omega of all copypasta shitposts.

Maybe this is actually God shitposting on 4chan while he's f5ing the front page hoping to catch some CP. Its the only thing that makes sense.

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>>681413456
that's what i thought.
checkmate.

>>681414125
Well you see you're wrong on the "evolution is seen as fact thing" it's a theory I.e. a largely accepted and supported explanation amongst the scientific community. Even to this day we continue to study and question Darwin's theory.

>>681414963
>because it's fact
>science does not claim to know what is true

Cognitive dissonance, everyone

>>681414125
When people claim evolution is a fact they aren't making a scientific claim. Evolution best explains observed biological realities. 100% of the physical evidence shows that creatures evolved over time. Evolution isn't a faith based belief system, it is something that people accept because it best explains the evidence. Also, show me a textbook that claims Richard Dawkins is infallible. Richard Dawkins has even said that he would believe in God if presented with actual evidence, his work isn't dogmatic. Try again.

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>>681415043
That isn't exactly an answer.

>>681414288
By that logic using a power drill is a religious ritual...

>>681415042
ITT: CHRISTIAN INBREDS SOME HOW MAKE THEMSELVES OUT TO BE EVEN MORE RETARDED THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED

>>681414418
>stop forcing it into public schools

Stop forcing mathematics, history, and literacy in schools?

>yes... better to teach alchemy, astrology, and trans sex.

That's why you are free to home school. So you can get all your info from the Koran if you want your children to live in a fucked world.

>>681414288

The scientific method doesn't fall into the category of ritual and prayer, numb nuts. Maybe I should of clarified those things to be associated with items or deities of sacred nature within a given religion. You can SERIOUSLY be arguing that the scientific method is comparable to any other specific religious practice.. The scientific method is literally a series of steps or techniques to investigate and explain phenomena and gain knowledge. Suggesting that this is special to atheism is like suggesting that there's never been a religious scientist.

>>681415375
I know, I dont really care about that conversation you were having that that other anon. I want to know why you are a traitor to your own heritage

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>>681415375
I hope you get staph infection bitch.

I have a question for OP.

How old are you to expect we would get a Never Ending Story reference?

OMG how old are you? Are you a wizard? Just kill yourself faggot.
-a millennial

Cuz science isn't a religion faggot

I know for a solid fact that atheists take science on faith. How could they not take science on faith if they're not scientists? It's a huge deference to their white coated high priesthood.

Owning atheists like this should be fucking illegal. The ass devastation is palpable.

>>681414288
Nope. The scientific method is not only commonly called into question as being potentially useless by the scientific community, but also there are many debates on how we might improve the scientific method.

How many pictures of that one fucking boy does OP have?

>>681414418
By your logic we should also remove mathematics as well.....are all religious zealots this retarded?

>>681415279
>science does not claim to know what is true
what the fuck is that bullshit? i never said that. and i disagree with that statement, science proves itself on every level. the only cognitive dissonance here is between you and reality.

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>>681415405
False equivalence. You said science isn't a religion because it contains no rituals, when it clearly does.

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>>681415438
>Maybe I should of clarified those things to be associated with items or deities of sacred nature within a given religion.
Define "deity" and "sacred."

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>>681415711
>science
>rituals

you are on another plain, child.

On what basis do you know that God exists OP?

>>681415584
this dudes been here posting this thread as long as ive been coming here.. years and years.. hes so worried about our origin its sad.

>>681415016
FAITH: 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

What part do you fail to understand?

Unlike religion, science is a tentative- not complete- belief in something.

>>681409289
Weakest bait ever, OP is faggot

>>681415636
By that thought, prayer is pretty fucking useless too now isn't it?

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>>681415692
Why should we teach things that aren't true?

>>681415711
Such as?
Not arguing genuinely curious

>>681416086
The scientific method.

>>681415318

Science makes claims of truth, indeed as FACT over the nature of life, the birth of the universe and the nature of reality.

Tell me again how this is different from any other religion?

>>681416001
The definition of religion, asswipe

I have a tentative belief in religion

>>681414920
Science
Noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
Let's look at the definition of religion.
Religion
Noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
Those definitions seem quite unrelated t me. Tell me, where does the definition of science make reference to worshipping anything, or the belief in a supernatural power?

Oh boy. THIS THREAD AGAIN.

>>681416160
What is the scientific method?

>>681416082
because we teach faggots like you that there's a magical white man in the sky who loves everyone and knows everything but makes retards and sends people to hell.

>>6814160
That exact same argument can be applied to any religion
We need to teach everything, and we do, we teach God's love at church and scientific faith at school.

>>681416397
google it you shit eater.

>>681412517
>durr science starts with q
>go ahead prove me wrong
>no bible says so, ur wrong.

>>681416397
A ritual. A set of steps that must be followed to the letter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

>>681415711
No jackass, the scientific method isn't a ritual, it is a tool. Not a false equivalence, try again.

>>681416269
science is pretty clear that is does NOT make claims of truth. And that it is open to change when proof is found to back it. Can't say the fucking same about most religious facets.

>>681416543
I want you to tell me what you think it is. I know what the scientific method is.

>>681414480
stop sub-shitposting.

>>681414480
I'm not even OP btw.

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>>681416595
rit·u·al
ˈriCH(əw)əl/
noun
noun: ritual; plural noun: rituals

1.
a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.


What in that definition doesn't apply to the scientific method?

>>681416647
do you?

>>681416647
doubt.

>>681416057
its not even bait.. this guy posts this shit so much and for so long, its clear that he cannot stop thinking about weather or not he is right. its a shame that someone can get so hung up on something and let it consume them. if there is a god i doubt it would want us to waste or time arguing about weather there is a god.

>>681416585
if that is the case then rituals are not specific or endemic to religion.

Making a cup of coffee is a ritual, baking a cake is a ritual.

>>681416301
RELIGION: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Science does not worship. Science does not presuppose that no superhuman entity exists... nor does it state that gods are not possible... it merely does not find compelling evidence to make the notion worth pursuing.

>>681409289
Science isn't my religion, they are just facts that I choose to believe religiously.

>>681416082
>>681416269
Science doesn't make that kind of truth claim you pompous retard. When a scientist says something is true what he means is "this position is the best possible way to explain the exsiting evidence. If it is refuted later then that refutation will be the best explanation." Scientists use words like facts and truth because retards like you need difficult subjects explained with the help of a crayola.

>>681416631

It is claimed as a 'FACT' by many biologists that all life on this earth is a product of evolution. It is further claimed as FACT that the origin of the universe is the big bang. These are fundamental truth claims about the nature of life and reality that differ in no way from any other religion.

>>681417038
Go back up the comment chain and read the claim that was made, then check to see if your point is relevant.

>>681416585
By that logic shaving is a religious ritual.

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>>681416744
I'm not OP either, but nice dubs... What's your point?

>>681415953

Answer this OP

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>>681416345
>>681417057
Buddhism has no gods. I suppose you believe that it's not a religion?

>>681416824
>religious or solemn

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>>681416703
Tell a newfag... What is sub-shitposting?

>>681417287
I already knew that rituals are irrelevant to religion, but christcucks will argue about anything to defend their precious dead kike

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>>681409289

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>>681413308
Something in science is only deemed true if its results and methodology are able to be replicated, and observed. And even then, it is always open to challenge and further testing.

Religion is faith. Belief. Opinion. Non believer are heretics, castaways.

Science encourages suspicion and welcomes challenge.

Fuck off, you religious nut.

>>681417379
he never answers things he cant answer.

>>681417298
No. By that logic shaving is a ritual.

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>>681411220
>The sky being blue is a fact.
The sky isn't even blue. it's just appears blue because of the particles in the air.

>>681417326
I think OP may have started sub-shitposting in response to me.

>>681417583
Except that he really can't answer any of the things he has answered.

ITT: the fedora's stop tipping due to the absolute assblasting these atheist faggots got.

>>681417459
Fuck off, you filthy nigger.

>>681416824
The scientific method is neither religious nor ceremonial, you have once again failed.

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>>681417408
The definition stated 'superhuman' and then only 'especially gods'. Buddhists believe in a superhuman, and the supernatural.

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>>681417442
Nice circular reasoning. Predictable, I suppose. Let me explain it to you.

We are arguing whether science is a religion or not, so you cannot use one conclusion to that question as evidence.

Since I don't expect an atheist to understand logic, I'll just put it this way.

Science is a religion.

>>681417713
If it appears blue to a human, it's blue. How else would you define color other than the way we perceive light? Hell, how else would you define the sky in this context?

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>>681417818
You mad b/ro?

>>681417379

Please answer my question OP

>>681417956
what makes a religion a religion?

>>681417198
nothing to do with atheism, retard. Yeah, there are scientists that believe that those are more than just theories, BUT THEY ARE STILL CALLED THEORIES. Give me some evidence otherwise tho, and we'll talk.

Weak argument though. Judging a group of people by what a few from that group state as truth. Like there aren't fucking crazy religious pieces of shit out there.

>>681417408
>Belief in some superhuman controlling power
Where does it say it must be a god? Buddhists believe in the cycle of the universe and karma, those are the things that keep the universe balanced. There, that's the superhuman controlling power.

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>>681417867
Define "superhuman" then. We should be working off the same premise.

>>681417408
But it does believe in a supernatural being....the Buddha is revered and worshipped by Buddhists. He might not be a god, but he is certainly a supernatural power, therefore my definition stands. Try again.

>>681409289
>>681409289
>>681409289

its ok op. youl know when you die. untill then do something with your life

>>681418137
So what constitutes "superhuman?"

>>681417581

Don't you just believe whatever the scientist high priests tell you? I mean you kinda have to don't you, pretty much on blind faith?

You basically believe, and indeed adhere to, a philosophy that makes truth claims about the universe on nothing but blind faith in what your scientist highpriests say.

Please tell me how this isn't a religion?

Mfw op is probably atheist anyways and all you newfags and or faggots are taking the obviously obvious b8

>>681410211
Because science kicks away all bias, and simply looks at evidence that is there, by observing and creating models. And we only truly strongly believe in theories with incredible amounts of evidence, but we're open to new ideas, only if it can crumble the current leading theory.

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>>681418000
Trip oots makes the sky blue!

>>681418318
because if what they were saying was wrong then other scientists would correct them

if what they are saying is right then it doesnt matter if its a religion or not

so its really win-win

>>681418398
Same guy, I think ur b8, btw

>>681417956
You haven't adequately supported the claim that science is a religion, therefore you cannot build any premises upon that claim.

A system of beliefs that explains how the world works and takes precedence over other contradicting systems of beliefs.

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>>681418114
in a word... Faith

Belief without evidence, and worship

>>681418672
then by what reasoning is science a religion?

>>681418271
Superhuman by definition is something/someone whose capacities are beyond human's grasp.

FEDORA TIPPING CEASES. FINGERS TREMBLE IN FEAR. ATHEISTS MASSAGE SOOTHING OINTMENT INTO THEIR PLOWED CORNHOLES.

>>681418345
No i don't think so.. he posts this every day lol. I think he doesn't know what to believe

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>i also enjoy fan art of jesus although its not my place to be asking just as ignorant people about unconfurmable rumors

>>681418831
not an argument

>>681409289
The Neverending Story sucked

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>>681418193
>>681418271
It is a conjunction of 'super' and 'human'.

Do you need the definition of super, or human?

Maybe you could try to google it.

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>I'll take science over morals, culture, and history

>>681413796
"they dont" is not an answer to that question. The question asks WHY do they, not simply do they?

like you said about refusing to respond, you changed the question and answered that instead.

>>681418764
You got the wrong anon. Science is not a religion as posited by OP.

>>681418893
Observation, not argument.

>>681419275
not an argument

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>>681418610
Regardless, because I dispute that claim you cannot use it as evidence and hope to convince me.

Here's a pic to help your small mind understand.

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coining old world phrases you spineless cowards don't even focus on the felt presence of direct experience do you?

>>681418318
No, I have actually studied a scientific field. I don't have to "believe the high priests" because I can replicate or refute their data. The thing is, any person can also do the same. Science doesn't have to be taken on faith because all people can be scientific.

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>>681418785
Cheetahs can run really fast.

So...belief in cheetahs makes you part of a religion?

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>>681409289
Athiests are scum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQdc0mX1_c

>>681419394
are you an idiot? rituals are irrelevant to religion, as we have covered previously in this thread

>excuse me while I worship my coffee maker

>>681418672
making up a story with no evidence and believing it as truth is normally called insanity.. but you can slap the word religion on it and just say "i believe its true" and your no longer a crazy person.

>>681413796
You haven't answered my question. You have shown why my question is broken and refused to even dignify it, which is the only possible response to your bullshit OP.

>>681413796
>"they don't." is not an answer to the broken question.

The answer is: 'Your question is broken.'

>>681418398
>science kicks away all bias

What are you talking about? Companies hire scientists to massage the data all the time.

>>681419842
>muh communism

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>>681411401
>>681411626
>>681411845
>>681412102
>>681412533

That picture he uses is what pisses me off so fucking much every single damn time. I fucking hate this OP and I wish I could have the pleasure of stabbing a knife through his throat. I don't even read the posts anymore. It's that stupid fucking crying piece of shit girl

>>681409289
couldn't even make it two sentences in before you said something stupid.

>>681419649
I'm just pointing out your logical fallacy.

>>681419394
That definition of rituals is oversimplified, and doesn't apply the way you're using the term. Also, I never said science isn't a religion because it doesn't have rituals. I said science isn't a religion because it fits none of the parameters listed in the definition I provided earlier in the thread.

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>>681419688
While that is true, people come to believe as they were taught by authority figures. It is only very recently that common people have had the ability to critically discount religious claims.

It's not necessarily a person's fault that they are so retarded.

>>681420191
my logical fallacy? not once did I say that rituals are what makes a religion.

>>681419842
While this is true, eventually the truth comes out because the massaged data doesn't fit the rest of the puzzle pieces.

>>681411250
Because it is in front of us and we can see it. Youre over complicating a simple question. We accept science because it is factual. We deny religion because it is not only unobservable and based on faith, but it is an obvious personification of humans natural instinct to regard themselves as "special" beings made by a loving god and now were gonna live forever in heaven. Isnt this charade transparent to you?

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PEOPLE ARE STILL REPLYING TO THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEREEEEEEEEEE KILL YOURSELVES ALL OF YOU

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>>681421008
I know that feel

sci·ence
ˈsīəns/Submit
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

It is annoying as fuck when some stupid religious (I guess those mean the same thing) thinks that science is a religion. In no way is science a religion. Religion is a way for ignorant idiots to explain what they are too stupid to figure out, or too ignorant to listen to. It makes no sense why people still follow religion, seeing as how most things are now explained by science.

>>681421008
But why did you check in?

>Dumbass

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>>681409289
This is the funniest one yet. Good job, OP.

>>681419842
That's not science. That's politics or economics. We try to find the truth.

>>681421186
>what is sage

Fucking kill yourself newfag

>>681421008
when 100s of these threads are made for months on end, eventually some will be successful sadly

>>681420810
I like how you say that their gods are "loving", but if religion is right, their god has killed (literally) over 93 billion people.

>>681421437
what is successful about this thread? successful in making 10 more smug atheists into this world?

>>681415601
You can always spot the faithful by their humility and selflessness. Philippians 2:3

>>681421173
The god of the gaps continues to shrink to insignificance.

But I would point out that your definition leaves out the important trait of falsifiebility. If a hypothesis can't be falsified, it aint science.

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>>681421437
This is a troll thread, not a conversion thread. This shit is just to get atheists butthurt.

>>681421363
But you still checked in... Twice now, newfag

>>681421898
I believe you misunderstand science.

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I don't have a answer, science is not a religion.

But, I've this 4 u:

If u call atheists as "stupid people"; God is not atheist since he/she don't have a "god"?

>>681409675
THEN THIS GUY SHOWS UP AND TAKES THE FUCKING BAIT