>communism = no freedom™
kek

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Shameless self bump

Who's a communist scum here? I love capitalism

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>>677164390
Well, ever communist state has been totalitarian. Just look at North Korea today. They practically used 1984 as an instruction manual.

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>>677164563
I've ran into a few here on /b/. It's crazy, but there are still ardent supporters of Stalin and Lenin and Mao, even in this day and age!

>>677164152

First of all you have to ask yourself this question,

If your neighbour has a 32" flatscreen tv matching yours, would he ever need to steal yours ?

>>677164578
These "communist" states were never communist and never claimed to be. In fact, Lenin said the USSR was state capitalist.

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>>677164675
Capitalism is DIE

>>677164152
>convince everyone to give up all their private property and freedom?
>convince

kek

Easy. You make it worthless.
Any way you can still have a house - you might also like it. Same as for a car. You might not own it as such but i would be your personal thing to use

Just a bunch of lazy dumb fucks who want free stuff and don't think about anything else about it

>>677164563
I am.

>>677164776
This is assuming that TVs would even be made in a socialist utopia. But that rather dodges the question: why would I give my TV to the state? Why would I then rely on the state for everything in life?

>>677164830
u wot m8? I'm gonna need a citation on that.

>>677165030
But it would then be the property of anyone else to use as they see fit. And given the constant shortages of everything in socialist/communist states, there would be competition for everything.

>>677165038
What would you gain from communism? Besides having a dictators cock to suck on

Socialism does not mean giving up your stuff. America is actually fairly socialist.

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When communists say they will end private property, what is meant is the means of production - farmland, mines, factories, stores, infrastructure, etc. An individual's house, belongings, car, etc etc are more properly termed "personal property" rather than private property. If you own your own house, you'll keep it after the revolution. If you own a business exploiting others, then you'll lose it, you petit-bourgeois scum.

>>677165038
Why? I can't fathom anyone wanting to hurt so many people. Why do you hate your fellow people so much? Why do you want to violently overthrow society? I know a misanthrope, but communism seems to be a whole other level!

>>677165034
Nope. "He who does not work, neither shall he eat." - Lenin

>>677165307
>constant shortages of everything in socialist/communist states
Surely this is just simple mismanagment.

>>677165366
How is America socialist? Just because the government does something doesn't mean it's socialist at all. Isn't the defining characteristic of socialism the public ownership of the means of production? And the defining feature of communism is the abolition of private property?

>>677165396
Yeah, communism has always been a good idea. On paper.

>>677165396
This, thank Comrade Morrow.

>>677165104

Oh we do have TV's in scandinavia, we live fairly socialistic.

I haven't given my state my TV, except though, they are the ones deciding what I watch through the deadly communist state apparatus of DR...

You don't rely on the state, you rely on the hivemind of society to make a democratic decision circumventing the states authority.

The whole point of socialism is to ensure that the worker has rights elevating towards a middleground between rich and poor with a slight difference in affordables

Yeah yeah, I'm drunk

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Go visit North Korea and see how real (ideal) communism works

>>677165423
I agree with this, but we can do without the welfare rats without turning to an extreme form. That's like saying just because I don't care for faggots that we should turn into North Korea, we can change 1 or 2 things without turning into the twilight zone

>>677165396
Isn't that just semantics? Could I not declare my neighbor's computer is private property and not personal property and take it for myself.

>>677165423
Then why are socialists pressing for universal income?

>>677165168
https://libcom.org/forums/theory/lenin-acknowledging-intentional-implementation-state-capitalism-ussr-23032011
>>677165422
>>677165341
Communism is a stateless classless society, and the different sects of communism only disagree on how to get there.

>>677165580
It's not completely socialist but the government does control certain means of production. Water, electricity, sewage, ect.

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>>677165600

>>677165645
Are the means of production publicly owned? No? Then you're capitalistic, not socialistic. You have a safety net, that's not socialism.

>>677165851
socialism=/=communism

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You enjoy your computer, phone, house, car, while 90% suffers under the imperialist exploitation that makes US-level wealth possible. Communism is a hard sell to rich folks - poor people understand the appeal of garaunteed housing, healthcare, food, jobs, education. If you've never lacked any of these things, of course you'll react to the prospect of communism with "b-but muh iPhone!"

>>677165866
Communism is retarded
>Wants a classless society
>Too lazy to try to work himself into the higher class
>Doesn't want to just live with it if he never makes it

>>677165866
>https://libcom.org/forums/theory/lenin-acknowledging-intentional-implementation-state-capitalism-ussr-23032011
Interesting! Then why did the USSR identify as communist?

>>677165866
>Communism is a stateless classless society
Then why has every communist society been a totalitarian state?

>>677166033

Depends what you mean by "publicly owned", shareholders are the public, are they not ?

>>677165771
North Korea is state capitalism like the USSR. See:
>>677164830
Source:
>>677165866

>>677165885
Then it's not a true socialist state and is more of a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. Isn't it disingenuous to claim you're only socialist?

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>>677166046
Isn't socialism just the stepping stone to full communism?

>>677166138
So then you admit that the only way to have communism come about is violent revolution?

>>677166404
In Marxist theory. However, they are two different things.

>>677166138
Survival of the fittest and luckiest. Some people are unlucky, some aren't the fittest. We have 7 billion people anyway, put a trashy fast food restaurant in their area and give them some cheap food that will make them infertile so they can't breed. Just fucking work, maybe you'll be lucky to make your way to the top or maybe you'll just live to be ok, but fuck the rest

>>677166288
By that definition capitalism is socialism. That's just silly. I think public ownership is that context is merely private individuals owning something, it's not truly public as only some people own it, not all.

>>677166138
90%? I smell bullshit. And the only people who suffer from iPhone production is the kids in China who make it.

But capitalism... Cause AMERICA.

>>677165779
Whether property is personal or private depends on how you use it. Doe you use it for personal purposes? Or is it a piece of capital that is used to generate more capital on the process of exploitation?

>>677166510
Yeah, communism is where you get gulags and mass purges.

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First of all, there would be no state in communism.

Second, you wouldn't have your stuff taken for lulz.

Third, you would have a say in what happens to your stuff. And you would have a say in what happens to other people's stuff.

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>>677166605
This.

>>677166496
A violent revolution is absolutely necessary - not because communists or the working class want violence, but because the bourgeoise will never surrender peacefully.

>>677166238
They NEVER claimed to be communist. These state capitalisms are authoritarian because they follow the Marxist-Leninist idea of a state that the proletariat can dismantle. However, they always end up w/ powerful dictators, which is why I'm a Left Council Communist, and not a Marxist-Leninist.

>>677166750
Unfortunately that never works out in practice.

>>677166739
*Marxist-Leninism

>>677166644

Capitalism and socialism have a lot in common in terms of interest.

Both are interested in a society where the worker is taken care of, for the worker is the giant main interest. One just chooses the idea that it's possible to earn as much as you want without regulatory and mandatory taxes

>>677166725
If I use my computer for games, it's personal property. But if I make a program on it and sell that program, then it's private property and should be taken away?

>>677166750
Then isn't that just mob rule? I have the biggest house, and everyone else decides to take it from me "for the good of the people".

>>677164776
wouldnt that neighbor rather have 2 flat screen tv's and sell one for crack?

>>677166923
I figured as much. I had a commie tell me that all commies just wanted "peaceful revolution", whatever that meant. I'm glad you're honest about it, though I'd still fight you to the death.

>>677164152
easy answer: capitalism plays with your wants of things you dont have i.e. the more you have the more you want. Communism honors your sacrifice i.e. the more your sacrifice the happier you are. easy as Pi

>>677164152
Look up solcialism and socialistic democracy (you know, the system of government the entire fucking first world uses are you serious right now?)

>>677166941
>They NEVER claimed to be communist.
They were the Communist party. What are you talking about? They certainly claimed to be communist.

So what's with your kind of communism? Violent revolution? Kill all the rich people? Then just go to pure anarchy?

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>>677166941
Found the comrade suffering from An Infantile Disorder.

>>677167008
Aka communism. What other kinds of communism are there?

>>677167471
See:
>>677166941

>>677167052
>Both are interested in a society where the worker is taken care of, for the worker is the giant main interest.
Then why has every communist/socialist nation always had a ruling elite making themselves rich and powerful?

>>677164675
It's [current year] everyone!

>>677167409
Isn't that a social democracy, and not democratic socialism?

i like anarchism
and you got to admit, it worked in spain a few years...

>>677167408
>Communism honors your sacrifice i.e. the more your sacrifice the happier you are
Then why were people in the USSR so miserable? Why did East Germany have to build a wall to keep people in?

>>677164830
classic 'no true scotsman' fallacy

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YOU WONT
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

>>677167589
Yet they still claimed to be the Communist party, and used communist ideology.

>>677167664

Because power corrupts. That's the only fact I can find in that.

One does it honestly, and that is why I can respect capitalism, the other is a subterfuge.

Noone ever said "communism" is flawless

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>as if the United States doesn't have gulags that contain 25% of the entire world's prisoners
>as if thousands of people in poor countries don't die every day due to lack of basic necessities
>as if the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. are not "the secret police"
>as if there is any real democracy in the US two party system

kek

>>677164152

Socialism has nothing to do with giving up your stuff and your freedom. It's about accounting for everyone in society. It's about making sure everyone has enough to live. The richest in society must make sure that the poorest have enough in the eyes of socialism. Socialism is nothing to be scared of, it's just a means for the poorest to have a better life.

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>>677168010
No kidding.

>>677167852
USSR and east germany never had real communism^^

>>677167549
>Trotskyism
>Anarcho-Communism
>Ba'ath
>Left Communism (me)
>Council Communism (also me)
>Maoism
>Stalinism (debatable)
>>677167871
See:
>>677166941

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>>677168125
Then why the mass purges in China, the USSR, North Korea, Cambodia, etc. ? That seems something to be afraid of.

>>677168142

But in terms of relating to marxism, all of these guys misunderstood the main concept

>>677168184
Can't tell if sarcasm or genuine communist believer

Kill all commies!

>>677168184
A wild Scotsman appears!

>>677168142
>Hitler
>Socialist
kek

>>677168273
So only Left Communism and Council Communism are REAL communism then? The rest are pretenders in your eyes?

>>677168331
Communism is not the same thing as socialism

>>677168391
Then why should we try communism ever again if every time it goes horribly wrong? Are millions more deaths necessary to reach this utopia you promise?

>>677168488

Well as your 88 states, he was...

Just on a NATIONAL scale

>>677168488
>National Socialism

>>677168536
No, the others are misguided. The end goal is the same, the methods are different.

>>677164152
What the fuck are you even talking about? Anyway, we already have socialism, but it's only for the rich. That's why when they fuck up, we bail them out. But its ok for them right?

>>677168703
The end goal being the extermination of the rich, right?

>>677168142
Because socialism was the main issue there, that makes sense.

>>677168685
What? You don't think that he might gave lied to gain power? He was not socialist. When he rose to power, he started busting unions and privatizing.

>>677168619

I wouldn't dream of promising a utopia through communism, it's too much of an abstract idea for the common human to fathom. Competition is in our biology.

But I do speak up for marx's ideas not being stupid being a firm believer of Kant's common hospitality, I'm a cosmopolitan (or however you spell it American)

>>677164152
There is easily enough resources for you to have your house, computer, car, eat, etc... problem is the way capitalismis set up is all the money flows up.

The people with money have the power. If you gave power, you can make big money. They will use all their monew or power to keep either. Only way to break that cycle is violence, which needs a leader who usually turns into a dictator.

>>677168813
Nope, a stateless classless society. No one wants slaughter, but if the rich fight us, we fight them. It's that simple.

>>677168963
Doesn't mean he wasn't a socialist to begin with. Maybe he just saw that socialism wasn't all that great and moved on to something he thought was better?

>>677168973
>But I do speak up for marx's ideas not being stupid being a firm believer of Kant's common hospitality, I'm a cosmopolitan
Translation, please?

>>677169044
So again, like every communist ever, you just want to kill the rich because they have more than you?

>>677169159
No, Hitler knew that socialism is attractive to the working class and pretended to be socialist to manipulate the working class.

>>677168403
i think communism might work, but i'm an anarchist

>>677169152
>a stateless classless society
How would that work? Wouldn't society fragment into armed camps? Ministates, if you will. Wouldn't violence just be the coin of the realm then? The strong would prey on weak camps.

>>677169230

Marx's Idea wasn't stupid, I believe in common hospitaly preached by Kant, I'm a cosmopolitan (Or however the fuck you say it in american)

>>677168671
See:
>>677168963

>>677169363
Doesn't that work against socialism then? If any monster can claim to be one and successfully masquerade as one? Doesn't that say something if a monster looks exactly like a socialist?

>>677169469
What is common hospitality and what is a cosmopolitan (other than a cocktail)?

>>677169437
Have you read Engles?
Have you read the communist manifesto?
In order to discuss it, support or refute it, you really should. Society is not ready for communism if it has to do so through violent means. Plain and simple.

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>>677169437
No, because they would have no reason to be greedy. Everyone provides for each other, and everyone has the same stuff.
>>677169582
pic related

>>677166205
>Has higher standards than you
>Couldn't live with himself if he didn't make it

>>677170019
Give me the tl;dr? Brief summary?

>>677169672

A cosmopolitan believes in a firm set of rules set by a new world order, that means the countries of the world have to unite in a U.N like setting to use days to debate human and civil rights on a major scale, after that they part the world into different beliefs large enough to accommodate the people of said belifs to live in between different borders. Everyone can travel freely, and everyone can "overstep" the rules to a certain degree to adapt to a new way of life in a certain designated area out of their beliefs.

Kant was a french philosopher preaching common hospitality, common hospitality means that if you let a stranger into your home, you give him certain limitations and freedoms inbetween to make his stay as accommodate as possible, while maintaining your own rules

>>677170053
>No, because they would have no reason to be greedy. Everyone provides for each other, and everyone has the same stuff.
That's completely against all human nature. Look at the entirety of human history. Heck, just look at every communist society, some strong man rises to the top and takes all the power. What you would need to do is lobotomize every human being or some sort of neurosurgery.

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>>677167852
people are stupid and dont know what they want?

>>677170053
Oops, wrong image. The point is that just because someone claims to be something doesn't mean that the thing is ruined, like how the North Korea claims to be democratic, but it doesn't necessarily mean that democracy is bad.

>>677170175
>cosmopolitan
Interesting, if a little silly. I can't see that working outside of theory.

>common hospitality means that if you let a stranger into your home, you give him certain limitations and freedoms inbetween to make his stay as accommodate as possible, while maintaining your own rules
Oh you mean property rights and the non agression principle! Gotcha.

>>677168414
Those goddarn commies!

>>677170446
Hah! That's what commies like to believe, true. "We know best, why don't you want what we want you to want?"

>>677170084
>Higher standards
>Can't live with himself not making it
>Wants to bring everybody else down for his failures
An hero faggots

>>677170664

Exactly, it's what I jumped to after anarchism, because to me, that's just silly superstition.

To create a dynamic society you need to accommodate the differences of persons inbetween at a larger scale, meaning you have to tear the world apart at first for it to become dynamic (A little population control would help too)

Just to check my name!

>>677170990
Makes me think of the possibility of making suicide legal and more accessible to the public.

>>677171001
>To create a dynamic society you need to accommodate the differences of persons inbetween at a larger scale
I can get behind this!

>meaning you have to tear the world apart at first for it to become dynamic (A little population control would help too)
Aaaand you lost me. Mass murder and violent revolution are just big no-no's in my book. The ensuing power vacuum and anarchy would be the destruction of everything we hold dear, it'd likely take millennia to recover from it.

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>>677170791
i c, now tell me why the most capitalist countries like south corea and US and A have the highest suicide rates? Capitalism doesnt make you happy, its all make believe. True happiness does not origin from property

>>677171593

Noone said anything about mass murder and violent revolution, as one already suggested in the thread, it's possible to make suice non-taboo, maybe even glorify it a little for the masses

>>677170360
Allow me to elaborate. In communism, specifically Council Communism, the workers would own the means of production through directly democratic workers' councils, which would run the commune. They would protect themselves with the fact that if people want to be part of the commune, they must help protect each other, like how they must work if the wish to be part of the commune. The people would have to form militias to protect the commune, and have a basic agreement with other communes to gift each other with needed supplies if they have a surplus. Other communes can't really go to war, because they won't get needed supplies, and it would require the loss of a chunk of the highly important workforce. They literally have to be peaceful.

>>677171672
http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-suicides-in-the-world.html
South Korea is up there, but not the US. South Korea is fucked up culturally. Get your facts straight.

And do tell, where does REAL happiness come from? Working a dead end job for the state till you die?

>>677171807
There has been talk of violent revolution above. Reread the thread. Plus every communist state came about through violent revolution...

>>677172204

Oh, sorry, I don't read every idiots comment inhere.

I believe a possibility is to make suice a non-taboo, and clear out a little in the population in that way

>>677164776
Doesnt stop people from thievery
People will always be greedy and niggerish people will always want more

Some people anyway

>>677171827
Then what's to stop one commune from warring with another commune? Or a group of communes banding together into a pseudostate and warring with others? They conquer other communes to get supplies, just like vikings. It would be more profitable to war with others than peacefully work away, especially if a commune has little in natural resources. Just look at all of human history on every continent! War is the norm in old times, tribes always warred with others, clans held grudges with other clans, etc.

>>677172464
No problem. But let's be honest, you really do not value human life much, do you?

with free health care

>>677172676

I value human life as much as I value the right to choose your own destiny.

Spoken like a true politician :)

>>677171288
That's a fucked up business though

>>677172833
Hah! Very diplomatic of you.

>>677173030

Honestly though, there's parts of human nature I'd rather see cut off than let it thrive

>>677173276
I cannot see any viable method of modifying human nature outside of some totalitarian upbringing or neurosurgery.

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>>677172077
>for the state
for the people, for your people! yes, thats where it comes from. If you still sit there on christmas eve hoping to get the best gifts... try GIVING the best gifts. Communism is an idea but certainly will form the basis of a better world.

>>677166138
Who gives a shit
Theres too many people to support those who didnt have the means to get to a level like ours in the first place
That may suck but it is what it is
Do you cry for the buffalo in the herd that couldnt outrun the cheetah pack?
Do you cry for the unlucky salmon who got caught by the bear while hundreds swam right past undetected?
No so shut the fuck up?
Has humanity moved past the point of natural order? Yes
Is communism the solution? No it, like the nanny state capitalist society, is a catalyst for laziness and degeneracy... Look at jails?
All you dumb fucks who cant function without too many helping hands offering handouts shouldnt WANT people to thrive off of others peoples works
LOOK AT ROME
LOOK AT THE FRANKS
LOOK AT ARAGON
the only thing that works is a society which places empathy for fellow man AND self dignity and discipline on the same level
You need to balance earning shit for yourself and helping others in NEED but not totally doing things for them

This is why reeducation should be practiced
Teach a man to fish
Dont fucking fish debone skin cook and spoon serve him ya fuckin autistic mongoloidian nigger tiered degenerate cuntfag

>>677173513

And that is part of my main point. They can have a place where they can have pure anarchy while I'll have my place without. I'm actually quite content with the world as it is and don't want to revolutionise, I just want to revel in my own shitty lifestyle and be happy doing so

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>How do you people plan to convince everyone to give up all their private property and freedom?
1. Communism does not seek to abolish private property, but only private ownership of the means of production (factories, machienes, all you need to produce).
2. The reason a majority of the population will in the end fight capitalism is that the majority of the population belong to the working class, thus capitalism is a system that is working against their class interest.

if you wanna know more, ask a communist anything

>>677173517
>for the people, for your people!
That's what you commies said the state was, the embodiment of "the people".

>If you still sit there on christmas eve hoping to get the best gifts...
For some people, not all. People are diverse. Some are givers, others are takers.

>Communism is an idea but certainly will form the basis of a better world.
Says you. I cannot see how having others dictate everything in my life, from my job to what I eat in the morning, would make me happy.

If the "capital" part of capitalism is in the sense of capital goods, or in other words, the means to do business, then I'm all for capitalism. I'm afraid the term capitalism is taken to mean more like predatory business practices as a survival of the fittest mentality. In the capital goods way reinvestment and social nurturing is built in.

>>677173627
>Dont fucking fish debone skin cook and spoon serve him ya fuckin autistic mongoloidian nigger tiered degenerate cuntfag
Rekt

>>677173939
Ah but isnt this the very essence of complacency? Wont sitting back and ONLY realistically worrying about your own affairs and solely yours ultimately allow the state of conditions to fall worse and worse through time?
Being involved is the answer
Weve been right so far with that
Its just being involved in the right way?

>>677173939
Ahhh! So you propose a world system where there are regions of anarchy, some communist states, some fascist states, etc. Yes? Then what keeps those incompatible ideologies from warring with one another? The Islamic State would want to crush the neighbouring Jewish State, and the Communist State and the Capitalist State would be in perpetual cold war with one another.

>>677164152
They're edgy hipster neck beards

>>677174154
What capitalism is, is not up for debate. It's a scientific term. Here is a definition:
>A socio-economic system based especially on private ownership of the means of production and the exploitation of the labor force.

>>677174246

Then so be it, it's only deterministic for me that humanity leaves space for other beings to thrive without us, life has a strange way of sustaining itself while the races fail haha.

If it was possible for me to change the world, I'd do more than I do now, but I'm built for bar-discussions only, so it's not my toil to make tomorrows paradigm

>>677174117
>Communism does not seek to abolish private property
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=communism+abolish+private+property

>>677174421

There are flaws, loads and loads, but I believe it's a matter of space that creates wars, not air

>>677174596
Hes not arguing the de jure definition of capitalism dipfuck
Hes pondering on whether de facto its come to mean over predatory god mode elitists jews who take the game too seriously have taken advantage of whats supposed to be a natural order esque system of woeking things out and rigged and changed the rules so much so that its basically communism guised undee the blanket of choice A or Choice 1?

>>677174885
Meaning?

>>677172583
The communes aren't ruled by authoritarians, they are ruled by regular people. If you ask someone if they would be okay with invading a nearby city which has had a relationship of mutual aid with the city that the person belongs to, chances are that they would say no.

>>677164152
Marxism is to Communism as free market economics is to capitalism. Neither will either be practiced in their purest forms because that's just how humans work.

>>677174708
But its YOUR QUALIA that dictates whether or not youd be efficient enough to make such an impact.. You could decide today that you do have the potential to do such things as move mammoth and mountain and itd be true so long as you devoted your mind to doing so

>>677174999

That the jewish and islamic state should be as far apart from eachother as possible, and have enough space to accommodate their people within.

>>677175139
>The communes aren't ruled by authoritarians, they are ruled by regular people.
When has any human institution been genuinely ruled by the people and not a single strong leader or oligarchy?

> If you ask someone if they would be okay with invading a nearby city which has had a relationship of mutual aid with the city that the person belongs to, chances are that they would say no.
How about ISIS? The Vikings? Any ancient kingdom? Native American tribes pre contact?

>>677174719
Wow. That only showed that there are alot of people who son't know what they are talking about. Read up on Marx, see it for yourself.

>>677174969
That's why I posted a definition. Besides, capitalism is far from a narural order.

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>>677164152
>you people
no U

>>677175214
>implying they wouldn't war anyways
>implying spatial proximity somehow prevented the cold war

>>677175207

The only thing I know for sure is :

Tomorrow I wake up with a hangover, go to another political party, debate the same people, discuss the same menial bullshit, and never move an inch.

But I know that the few I devote myself to will take to heart what I say, and move that mountain for me and kill the mammoth for it's hide and tusks too... so what I did today, didn't really make a difference

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>>677174130
omg, c'mon you really think the capitalism of our time grants you a free will? Read about how comercials manipulate your "free will" while hollywood sublimally tells you what to desire. True freedom needs to be enabled by someone that gives you orders (sounds weird, i know) such that you may realize what you really want (i.e. to follow or withstand)

>>677175397
>This
What is Romulus and the Sabines? The praetorian guard? Egypt and Kush? Napolean and literally every other western european entity

>>677165423
And people waited in line for fucking bread and half couldn't eat. Good job.

>>677175416
Regarding private property:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/communism

communism
/ˈkɒmjʊˌnɪzəm/
noun
1.
advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community

It's right in the freaking definition! No private property.

>>677175526

USA and russia aren't far apart ;)

If the jews have enough space to be an incredible mass, and the muslims have the same, they would only cold.war eachtoher

>>677165396
>I decide who is exploiting who, I am the supreme law of the land. I am never wrong.
Yeah sounds really good, I'll let some Marxist faggot choose who is good and who is bad.

>>677175569
>my words influenced others to do my biddings
>what I did today doesnt really matter
Dude where the fuck is your logic?

>>677175577
I'm free to choose what education I major in. I'm free to quit my job. I'm free to choose what to eat for a meal. I'm free to move to another city in my nation. None of those freedoms exist under communism. See the USSR or North Korea.

>>677166750
>guys...it will work this time I swear.

>>677175806
You miss the point: groups would fight no matter what, even if they're not neighbors.

>>677175904

They still killed the mammoth, my actions took the time and money of the people, and that is where I fucked up.

>>677169375
Oh boy even more of a fag.

>>677176167


Not if they had a living space that accomodated them, there'd be no reason to fight anymore

Ideological war is based purely on manipulation of the masses

>>677169322
Yes they cheated to get it.

>>677174596
Can't exploit mean employ? I'm just saying that if capital is thought of a certain way then capitalism seems like a pretty good way for things to run.

I think sports has hijacked the term capital as in "capitalize" on an opportunity in which case for each time someone wins someone else has to lose.

>>677176432
You do know people fight not just for space or resources, but because of hatred, fear, and ancient grievances.

>>677176445
By working hard? By making smart investments? By creating businesses and jobs and hiring employees? How is any of that bad?

>>677176638

THAT is the manipulation of the masses, this hatred you speak of. Jews ALWAYS have gold, you know ?

>>677176498
>I think sports has hijacked the term capital as in "capitalize" on an opportunity in which case for each time someone wins someone else has to lose.
Well it is true, for a business to succeed, another business in the same field has to lose business.

>>677175778
Well yeah, that's the definition that bourgeoi economists interpreted. In bourgeoi economy theory there is no seperation between private ownership of the means of production and the private ownership of property. In Marxism however this is different, because Marx saw the different effects on the material conditions the types had.

>>677175397
>When has any human institution been genuinely ruled by the people and not a single strong leader or oligarchy?
The Kurds, Kronstadt, Catalonia, the area of Russia that supported the Black Army, and the Zapatistas.
>How about ISIS? The Vikings? Any ancient kingdom? Native American tribes pre contact?
ISIS did not get mutual aid, and they are blinded by the bourgeois and statist institution of organized religion. The Vikings were statist. The Iroquois were actually very stable, and were a very good example of a communist society.
>>677175690
I don't support the Soviet model. I'm just informing you that communism isn't about muh free stuff.

>>677176793
Not necessarily, Muslims HATE jews, it's part of their religion, no manipulation necessary.

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>>677175994
sure, you are also free to fail your major, loose your job, starve, or leave your contry. I still dont see how these freedoms make your life any better if you trade it for a dictation on what to spend your $ on or sacrifice most of your life on a shitty job just to make the $

>>677176740
They cheat the common worker, they waste their money instead of providing for the masses. It is wrong to horde all that money and live like they do.

>>677176851
How is it any different? Something either privately owned or not.

>>677176954

Now tread lightly, and be COMPLETELY sure, what is the largest manipulator of humanity ?

>>677176201
How is that a problem? They needed to eat too? Sport provided a sense of fun/thrill/hunt/lulz/brotime? Got exersize? So therefore the time and money they spent benefited them in a way too
Also thats one less mamoth in the area to stomp on them
Life is all about give and take
This is why capitalism is the closest thing to a regulated system modelled after lifes natural selection
Those "strong" enough to work and make mpney get to buy whatever they want they get to eat they get to relax on sundays

Even stronger still are the ones smart enough to make the supply and regulate it so that theyre the only source
And so on and so forth

What is a failure about having people devote time or money
So long as there are 2+ people in the world some will be leaders and others will be followers
And different times and places for different reasons
Lofe is objective
Yet dynamic
>douevenlife?

>>677176913
>The Kurds, Kronstadt, Catalonia, the area of Russia that supported the Black Army, and the Zapatistas.
Are you saying those groups were without leaders/leadership? Last I checked you cannot have a group without a leader/leadership outside of a mob, and those are transient entities that last hours tops.

>I don't support the Soviet model. I'm just informing you that communism isn't about muh free stuff.
Yeah, vengeance against perceived slights by rich people, right?

>>677177152
Capitalism and the state.

>>677177304

Okay, you're just dumb... even marx knew what was up

>>677176961
Freedom to succeed means the freedom to fail.

>I still dont see how these freedoms make your life any better if you trade it for a dictation on what to spend your $ on or sacrifice most of your life on a shitty job just to make the $
Self determination, you know about it, right? It's this crazy thing where a person feels fulfilled if they make their own choices in life. I know it's alien to a communist.

>>677176976
>They cheat the common worker
By giving them jobs and pay?

>they waste their money instead of providing for the masses.
They spend ALOT on charity. Besides, it's theirs to do with as they see fit.

>It is wrong to horde all that money and live like they do.
Why? Because you're jealous? Seems a bit childish.

>>677177264

Life isn't dynamic, it's eat fuck and sleep, leadership is dynamic.

You'll know that when you have a longterm relationship

>>677174969
Thank you. And we'll said.

>>677177152
Emotion?

>>677164152
Hi Heidi, thanks for joining us tonight.

The answer is to provide free or very cheap everything. 'But that's impossible'. No - soon it will be possible to print off a working smartphone at a community run 3D printing centre using freeware and free design.

I agree that forcing people to give up their shit seems bad, I would happily see a millionare's 100 room mansion decreed as 100 rooms for the homeless, but I'm opposed to workers being compelled to give their house to others.

I'm an Anarcho-Syndicalist not a Socialist or Communist btw

>>677177712

Partly...

give them a gun promise them land and opportunity to be important. but they must be poor.

>>677177625
NO THE REVOLUTION WILL COME. THE RICH ONLY HAVE WHAT THEY HA E BECAUSE THEY CHEATED TO GET IT AND THEIR KIDS GET IT FOR FREE. THE FUTURE WILL DISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH TO MAKE SOCIETY BETTER.

Communism is fucking retarded and 90% of people who advocate it are spoiled bourgeois. You think you're gonna get benefits from it? The poorest of poor people will get benefits from it, anyone from upper-lower class and above (except for high class) will get fucked. In other words the middleclass. High class has means to protect itself and can survive a communist regime easily. Both my parents are from the former USSR, (I lived there too when I was young but I had no concept of what was going on till I got older in retrospect) and they both said that it was a fucking retarded system.

Full on capitalism is the same as communism in certain regards, so that shit won't work either. A socialist capitalism is the best system.

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>>677177302
I'm saying that these groups were/are controlled by the people. Also, what you said about communism is only partially the truth. We want fairness and equality.
>>677177455
pic related
>>>/pol/

>>677177812
>you are wrong to own a house which you have money for
>Muh anarchy
You guys are so fucking gay it's unbelievable.

>>677177946
Poes law.

>>677177077
Yes, not all property is the same. Some property, some tools, can be used to create worth (commodity). Thos are means of production, things that are nesessary to produce worth. When they are in private ownership, those who own them have a different economic position than those who don't, they are capitalists. They can exploit the surplus value from the work that the proletarians do. This is how capitalism is an exploitive system. But normal private property does not have the ability to create worth, or at least not to the same extent. Marxists seek to abolish the exploitation of capitalism by giving the means of production in the hands of the working class, so that exploitation through private ownership is impossible. But because normal private property has no effect on the class situation, it can still be owned by private persons. That's why your stuff is yours in communism, but factories belong to everyone.

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>>677178128
This pic sums it up

>>677178221
>We want fairness and equality.
Through violent revolution and taking everything from everyone. You see why I and others like me find you reprehensible?

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>>677177493
also, no true comunist will tell you that USSR and other comunist experiments were perfect. Who says that the next communism 2.0 isnt compatible with a true self determination of each being? Think further, dont just stick to the lesser evil because its comfortable to do so. I think you consider alternatives to your current life, otherwise we wouldnt be talking

>>677178264
>. Marxists seek to abolish the exploitation of capitalism by giving the means of production in the hands of the working class,
But the line between means of production and personal property are completely arbitrary. Wouldn't you still take my house and car from me to give to the poorest? Wouldn't you still take everything I own because I was an eeeevil bourgeois person? You make it sound like you wouldn't take everything, but we both know you would.

>exploitation through private ownership
You keep using that term... How is ownership evil? A business owner creates jobs, gives back to the community. What's evil about that?

>>677178994
For the greater good anon.

>>677178590
>Who says that the next communism 2.0 isnt compatible with a true self determination of each being?
Common sense? Why would communism turn out different the hundredth time it's tried? Every single time it's tried, people die, economies tank, people starve, there are mass purges, etc.

>>677179078
If the "greater good" demanded 49% of the population die horribly, that makes it right, because it's for the majority of 51%?

>>677176831
I'm just saying that if capital is taken more as capital goods and less as capitalize then capitalism I think would mean nurturing the facilities, the tools, the machines and also the people, the community and the environment as all those things are means of production.

But yeah, sure, any market space can get saturated and overcrowded and a portion of the players in that space are going to get twatted. Shit always happens, right? Nothing's perfect.

>>677178379
>commisar Cletus
>commisar Jamal

My sides have left orbit.
But yeah that's pretty much what I was trying to say. In my town (a college town) there is noticeable fraction that supports communism, all fucking students. They don't understand what communism is, they just think their che guevara posters are the shit and that they're special pieces of cancer.

>>677179243
The oppressed will be free anon, the oppressed if more than 51%.

Now

>>677179251
>capitalism I think would mean nurturing the facilities, the tools, the machines and also the people, the community and the environment
Oh come now, I consider myself a capitalist and even I know people and the environment don't matter in capitalism. It's just the way it is.

>>677179338
That's what I mean, you commies just want to revel in a bloodbath! You're all angry monsters who want to tear the successful down.

>>677179763
Blood will not be needed unless the oppressor steps down anon. Join the ranks and help make the world better.

>>677179880
>give us what we want or die
And you're the good guys how?

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>>677179132
i dont understand... these are symptoms of capitalism and not comunism. just some fucktards like stalin ruined it. Further, people in the US evade your "commie"-results by exploiting the rest of the world and imho a perfect system should benefit every being and not just the one on the trigger.

>>677180252
>these are symptoms of capitalism and not comunism
You do know what Stalinist Russia was like right? Where are the purges in the US?

>>677179630
That's when the capital of capitalism is taken in the sense of capitalize (predate) and not capital goods (means to do business).

Sorry I didn't quote your post. It's much easier to read your way.

>>677180106
The reds have always been the good guys anon....always.

>>677178520
No, we want to give the means of production to those who work them.

>>677178994
>Wouldn't you still take my house and car from me to give to the poorest?
I understand your reaction, but the simple answer is: No. Of coarse it can't be denied that things like that happened in the history of the communist movement. Especially Marxist-Leninists , or Bolsheviks in the USSR, Did collectisise all property. But that was more of an economical action, than an ideological. There is no part in Marxism where such a thing is advised. Also, there were revolutions were the vast majority of the population were able to keep all their private property. The rich bourgeoisie, like the top 5%, most likely weren't allowed to own unreasonably amounts of their riches, but that's because those people were the capitalists that made that money through exploitation and the countries were often poor, so the proletarians needed it worse.
And this is also something to keep in mind: A communist revolution will not arise from a first world land like the western countries, because a revolution needs the population to be class counscious, to know how acpitalism works. But most people only become class counscious under a hard exploitation pressure, ie. in a bad economical situation. But those are created by capitlism through it's systemic contradictions, so it will happen.

>>677180553
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

>>677180521
Business means competition, competition means to predate, etc. I understand this and accept it. It just means you have to avoid being the weak one under the boot heel in life.

>>677180609
And how will you wrest the control away from the owners if not through murder?

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>>677180456
capitalsim is characterized by a permanent revolution leading to change but never able to leave its inherent mechanisms, the failing people of these revolutions are sacrificed or "purged"

>>677180635
>But that was more of an economical action, than an ideological.
So you say you won't, and I just trust you on it? Despite it happening every time in history when communism is tried? What will be different this time? "I'm the good guy, trust me!"

>because a revolution needs the population to be class counscious, to know how capitalism works
You mean that they buy into the jealous dogma of communism and have no understanding of how capitalism works.

>>677180964
The bourgeoisie are not going to give up power willingly, just as the British weren't going to willingly give power to the American colonists. See what I'm getting at? Revolution would be necessary.

>>677181220
The mental gymnastics there were Olympics worthy. How is that violent purging? Where are the death camps? Where are the secret police disappearing people in the night?

>>677181471
>you won't give me power, so I have no choice but to murder you
>see? you're the bad guy, not me!

>>677180862
That's what business means, not capitalism. I too accept that. It shouldn't be called capitalism though. Perhaps market share-ism. Thinking of business as big fish eating little fish isn't really putting any kind of great regard to capital so shouldn't be called capitalism, me thinks.

>>677181869
Oh I misunderstood! It's a semantics issue. Well I still have to disagree. Just like how communism always has mass murder and violence, capitalism will always entail predation and the big fish eating the little fish. So joining the meaning of captialism with the predatory nature of how it works is quite fair.

>>677164675
Not like russia had a history of great benevolent leaders before him.

>>677182489
I still think Stalin is one of the worst monsters in all of human history, even worse than Hitler.

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>>677181603
as I said, dont equalize Stalin with comunism. Stalin was a insane person corrupted by power and his fears. If you are looking for death camps in capitalsim, look at Hilters Germany, Gaza, or Guantanamo

>>677164563

>trot right here

>>677182798
>as I said, dont equalize Stalin with comunism
Many communists still idolize him, he was following his form of communism to the letter, so why isn't he communist?

>If you are looking for death camps in capitalsim, look at Hilters Germany, Gaza, or Guantanamo
Hitler was a socialist. Gaza is just a shit hole unrelated to capitalism. Guantanamo is not related to capitalism either. Are people being held there in the name of business? No.

>>677166138
Execpt for all those famines that killed millions and deliberately murdering ukrainian peasents . communism ends up hurting the common man more than anything else.you should go on Int and see how many eastern european posters have uncles and grandparents that were sent to gulags and had there property liquidated.

>>677181269
>So you say you won't, and I just trust you on it?
No, how about you pick up some marxist theory and read for yourself. https://www.marxists.org/

>Despite it happening every time in history when communism is tried?
As I said before: No, it didn't. In the revolution of the paris commune, the bavarian socialist republic and the cuban revolution, the vast amount of the population kept their private property. I would add the Zapatistas, but I am not 100% sure there.

>You mean that they buy into the jealous dogma of communism and have no understanding of how capitalism works.
No, the exact opposite. Because the economic situation is worse, the proletarians life in poverty, and see that the other class, the capitalists, still are rich. They realise the capitalist class antagonism, understand that the two economic classes have opposing interests and that therefore, the oppressed and expolited class has to overcome the exploiting class and take the means of production into their own hands. You wanna know how cpaitalism works? You have a few evening time to read?:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm

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>>677181803
>The rich are innocent. That's why they export jobs to 3rd world countries where they can pay people for less than minimum wage. That's why they buy elections in 1st world countries to keep the people from having power. Fucking poor people. Why do they want to steal our stuff? Why do the need to survive? Their right to survive does not negate my right to exploit them and live in the lap of luxury! If they don't like being paid so little that they have no choice but to continue to work to survive, why don't they just quit and die? Fucking poor people. They've had it to good for too long. Why can't we just go back to slavery?

>>677182242
Yeah, basically a semantics problem... one that irritates me greatly, though.

I think that capitalism in my sense of the word used to work well before technological advance, mismanagement and greed really took off and started to be rewarded so much.

I hate to go all tin hat but I truly believe that population growth buggers up good capitalism too.

>>677182798
>Guantanamo
>Death camp
Prisioners in gitmo are treated pretty much the same as prisoners in the united states. Not everything is run like abu grahib contrary to what the media portrays.

communism only works in extremely small scales, for instance families. On large scales where there are people in the communist society that you dont give a shit about, like countries, do you really want all the welfare niggers in the country living off your hard work? No, so you wont put in any effort yourself. I manage a lot of people in the manufacturing facilities I have run, but I have never seen a lazier person than a former bolshevik ex russian jew, who would literally spend more time shitting every day than he ever worked in a week.

>>677183213
See:
>>677168963
>>677169363

>>677183331
>how about you pick up some marxist theory and read for yourself
So what? The theory says one thing, the actions of communists says another. I go by reality, I go by the actions.

>In the revolution of the paris commune, the bavarian socialist republic and the cuban revolution, the vast amount of the population kept their private property.
I'm gonna need sauce on that. I don't believe that one bit.

>Because the economic situation is worse, the proletarians life in poverty, blah blah blah
So the people are angry at the successful and want to tear them down instead of building themselves up. Bravo! Well done encouraging the worst in humanity.

>You wanna know how cpaitalism works? You have a few evening time to read?
Oh give me a break. It's like reading Mein Kampf in order to get a look into how the Jewish people work. Your link is nothing but angry ravings against the successful.

>>677184202
See:
>>677165423

>>677183389
>That's why they export jobs to 3rd world countries where they can pay people for less than minimum wage.
So you don't want the truly destitute in other nations to be lifted out of poverty? How un-communist of you.

>Their right to survive does not negate my right to exploit them and live in the lap of luxury!
Technically yes. I have no obligation to anyone other than me, just as no one has any obligation to me. It's how the world works. Don't like it? Too bad.

>>677184295
So this is what you think:
>>677183389