Jiu Jitsu vs Wrestling
Which style wins?
>>848241
Under what ruleset?
>>848241
Ruleless -> Jiu Jitsu
With rules -> any
I think Jiu Jitsu have more content.
It could go either way. Only memesters think that BJJ is the dominant art after early UFC.
>>848241
Wrestling. Watch sakuraba vs royce gracie. Or any modern MMA fight where the bottom game is "scramble to your feet as fast as possible" not "recover guard and set up a sub or sweep".
it depends, at the beginning levels i think wrestling wins, but a college wrestler against a competitive blackbelt ill take the blackbelt, but then an Olympic wrestler? dunno..
it really varies. could go either way
>>848241
What rules and these threads are gay. Going to copy and paste what i post before in the last grappling thread before new /asp/ happen
> bjj guys destroying olympians
>non bjjers in abu dhabi
>bjj tournies
I've seen this argument so many times and it usually by novice grapplers who have no idea the career paths and opportunities provided by each grappling system and what is consider the pinnacle in each. This isn't met as disrespect toward them, but its irksome the disrespect the show toward other styles (meaningfully or not)
Abu Dhabi is consider a pinncle career moment for a lot of BJJ players, however it isn't on the radar for a majority of all Judoka, samboist, and wrestlers. That is why you don't see them in there, and that is also why you don't see BJJ players in the olympics. Its the main appeal of MMA leagues because in theory you can get the best of each ruleset/style and have them go against each other. however that becomes a false experiment because of cross training and the introduction of strikes and fences, which vastly morphs all grappling styles.
I'm judo nidan and highschool wrestling coach, and honestly my real serious competition days are behind me even in my late 20s. However I am still participating in my craft by becoming a ref. With this in hand i know the career pathways for true elites in both styles and how it applies.
my post is gonna be real long so bear with me
>>853720
First thing ill explain is wrestling.
You have United World Wrestling, which is the national governing body for wrestling. They put on World's. World's are in late summer/early fall. On Olympic years, they hold do not World's but instead wrestle in the Olympics. There are two different styles of wrestling for this, freestyle and greco-roman. They put on a variety of big competitions such as the World Cup and Ivan Yargin.
In USA, we do folkstyle wrestling during our season. You have NCAA wrestling (Division 1, Division 2, Division 3, NWCA, NIAA, etc.), high school wrestling, and some places have middle school wrestling teams, but it's mostly a club sport (in middle school that is). Our athletes do freestyle/greco-roman in the offseason, and then after college they compete internationally.
Olympics are the pinnacle. Everyone wants to be an Olympic champion. Winning World's is second to that for international wrestling. When you see guys in the U.S. talk about wrestling after college, they don't say "I want to win Worlds", they say "I want to an Olympic Gold". You could win the Worlds 7 time and not win Olympic gold, and that will be how you will be remembered. Best guy to not win Olympic gold.
NCAA wrestling is the pinnacle of wrestling to a majority Americans unfortunately. Freestyle/greco is about 5%-15% as popular as Folkstyle in the U.S. by my estimation. So many people only dream of being an NCAA champion, although this trend is changing and more and more people are realizing that the pinnacle is to win Worlds/Olympics. Wrestlers in the U.S. also compete in freestyle/greco while in college/high school, just not during wrestling season (Nov-March).
>>853721
NCAA wrestling is kind of a feeder. It is in the sense that once you finish NCAA wrestling, that is your avenue to continue competing. There is no folkstyle wrestling that these guys that wrestle in the NCAA can do after college. There is no avenue/organization for it, and likely never will be. It's hard to explain so sorry if this is a bit all over the place. The sport is kind of at a crossroads. The market is growing and more high level wrestlers are continuing to compete instead of switching to MMA, so I think it will be VERY interesting to see how we stack up against the World soon.
Judo is similar, you have in the top tier countries. a feeder system having athletes train since childhood, to vye just getting on the national team. The US is a cluster fuck in terms of organization, since it doesn't have the public school system to feed it unlike wrestling. Ronda Rousey's mom hooked her up or rather trained her similar to how they have the international system. So anyway the pinncle of a judoka is Olympic gold. Every country but America treats their athletes as a federal employee. So they get a yearly stipend (which is a salary up to $40,000 USD), living quarters, and food allowance , so they can just focus on training. Win an olympic medal and they can be awarded several 100,000 dollars (Frances Teddy Rinner, i think had the largest purse for his gold medal with nearly half a million and that is on top of his Adidas endorsement)
>>853722
Judo is such a niche sport in the US that they don't compensate their athletes for anything, you hear horror stories from Ronda Rousey and Travis Stevens about dividing their time with olympic level training and working 2 jobs just ot make ends meet. That aside the olympics are the pinnacle for nearly the majority of all judo competing countries.
In the case of judo and wrestling there's another, more important reason. Would you rather win an Olympic gold medal (with some general press coverage in most countries, and a lot in countries that don't win many medals), or win ADCC and get almost no general press coverage in any country?
Time spent on BJJ tournies like Abu Dhabi/ ADCC is time not spent on judo or wrestling - and the people you're competing against are going to be focusing on judo/wrestling; you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by doing anything other than the sport you're aiming at Olympic gold in.
Moreover, you have to earn qualifying points in international tournaments even to qualify for the Olympics in judo and wrestling. Being best in your country means nothing; there are about 32 slots for 180 nations in both judo and wrestling; most national champs don't qualify.
The upshot is that if you're serious about judo or wrestling, you're not going to compete in ADCC. Not that I think they'd win anyway, any more than an ADCC champ is going to win Olympic medals in judo or wrestling (they're all different sports), but even if they had a chance they'd never do it, because it would cost them their chance for Olympic glory
>>853724
My point here was that actually many people are expecting athletes with skill set A to enter in a tournament, requiring skill set B and win it.
Well, in the majority of the cases, they don't actually expect them to win it, but they only want to see the fight so they can point their finger and say "You see!!! I told you BJJ is blah- blah- blah!!!".
I am taking a step back and stating why high level judo/ sambo guys cannot win it, hence they don't enter. Same as why BJJ guys cannot win high level judo/ sambo tournaments.
Abu Dhabi is a funny thing, because it was basically a rule set looking for competitors when it was created. It's not like a lot of people spent a ton of time on no-gi prior to Abu Dhabi being established, it was basically the sheik deciding he liked no-gi and there needed to be a no-gi tournament that the big names would come to so he funded one. It's still basically a BJJ based rule set so of course BJJ guys are going to dominate.
In general style vs. style comparisons are somewhat silly. Styles are essentially defined by competition rule sets, so whoever has trained the most with a given rule set in mind will win under that rule set. There's no way to make a level playing field between styles because do set up such a competition you'd have to create a new rule set, which essentially would then be a style itself. People say 'submission only' but that favors submission artists, not every grappling style has submissions. What about pins, the ultimate expression of dominance in wrestling and a core part of Judo groundwork? But if you have both pins and submissions, then you change the nature of the bottom game entirely. Basically you cannot escape the effect that rule sets have on creating styles.
>>848241
Depends what kind of wrestling and ruleset. Mostly the one with the submission game always wins if ground and pound isn't prohibited.
>>853728
*better submission game
>>853728
That's another huge thing too. Also this is debatable and I am open to it, but i believe MMA has now formed its own unique style of grappling (and striking, but i'm a grappler so i can't speak to confidently on the principles of striking)
Wall grappling and ground and pound change huge aspects of all styles of grappling. I'm not a huge guard player because of my back ground, but I LOVE half guard, in MMA its a death sentence to getting punched in the face a lot. Same with some of my go to reversals like a peterson, that's asking to be submitted. Doesn't mean those moves and positions dont work (in BJJ half guard is a viable move, and the peterson is so common in wrestling) but in a MMA context those are better left to other attacks.
>>848241
Jiu Jitsu.
Wrestling doesn't teach finishing moves, and everything it does teach can be countered by Jiu Jitsu.
>>853720
Effective kebab removal technique right there
>>853720
I know there was at least one wrestler who wrested to the finals of Abu Dhabi. I think he ended up losing to Marcelo.
>>853958
mark kerr won some adcc tournaments. he won most of his matches by points rather than submission tho
>>854041
That's how most matches are won anon.
What you mean to say is that he won.
>>853958
>>854041
Mark Kerr was incredible in his prime and a tragedy at the same time. Not undermining anything he did, he was a pioneer for a lot of wrestlers. The path he took on his career though, he was a man born a decade to early. With his talent and abilities he could have made Cono McGregor cash, but back then MMA was in its infancy and there was no money in wrestling.
Also he didn't even come close to getting any where near the Olympic level of wrestling and that is why later he branched out into the new frontier of MMA.
Even back then Abu Dhabi was in its early infancy of rules, but Mark Kerr didn't play submission grappling he was a good enough grappler to educate himself on the rules, defend and protect himself and out point the competition.
>>853713
BJJ is still the dominant art in any open submission only competition
>>854091
most if not all submission only tournies are based off of BJ rules, so it makes sense BJJ is dominant. But we can't negate how powerful pins are which a majority of other grappling styles award as an absolute victory in some way.
Even in the MMA rule context, (audience complaint aside) we have seen plenty of submission artist nullified and rendered helpless pinned down.
Now on the topic of pinning and combining them with strikes, ground and pound becomes even more dangerous.
Again this isn't a diss toward BJJ, its a really respectable style, but we should be mindful that the other grappling styles here are useful and having the ability to pin or leg ride can be as devastating as submitting.
>>853720
>>853721
>>853722
>>853724
>>853725
TL;DR : wrestlers and judoka train for olympics, this somehow prevents them from going to sub only competitions because reasons. (it eats into their training time or some made up shit)
never mind that we see UFC champions go to the same sub only competitions, GSP has been in many ADCCs and he trained just as much for his title defences as teddy reiner
>>854115
actually if you pay attention to the last couple of years. Zuffa has been super wary of letting their contracted fighters out to cross promote and do sub tourneys. in fear of injuries and other things that shelf their champs.
GSP was a stud, and a champion MMA fighter, but not a elite in term of sub grappling let alone grappling .
If i recall correctly before his first Condit match he talked about trying out for the Canadian Olympic team for wrestling since he trained for them. Let me try to find the old threads/interview but the wrestler coaches/teammates admit he probably wouldn't make the cut.
Similar thing happen to Anderson Silva and the Olympic TKD team.
>>854115
where are GSP's ADCC results?
>>854105
>most if not all submission only tournies are based off of BJ rules, so it makes sense BJJ is dominant. But we can't negate how powerful pins are
the logic center in your brain must be broken. why the fuck would anyone implement pins IN A SUBMISSION ONLY COMPETITION?!
>>854105
>Even in the MMA rule context
pins have only been relevant in an MMA context. since youre using superior grappling to put someone in a position to strike them.
take away the striking and all youre really achieving is making someones back touch the ground for a long time.
btw if your definition of "based of bjj rules" means "no pins" you really have a narrow point of view. most leg locks are mostly banned in bjj up to black belt, and even then heel hooks arent allowed.
wouldnt this make the superior samboists dominate ADCC? they would certainly make better money than winning those russian sambo competitions
>>854105
>pinned down
I think you meant stalling
>MUH GNP
release one hand to hammer and suddenly your pin is not effective anymore and there you are inside the bjj guy's guard.
>MUH GNP INSIDE THE GUARD
more stalling and you will probably end up subbed.
no wrestler can win against bjj without either trainning bjj aswell or other striking art plus avoiding going to the ground.
bjj > wrestler period.
>>854126
cant find anything except his video of adcc 2005. ive seen him in many adcc highlight reels tho.
adcc actually has a lot of UFC fighters compete tho, i see ben henderson and tito and hector lombard (who i guess could represent judo even though hes cross trained now)
>>854128
I'll admit my brain is a tad mush i've had 3 documented concussions and probably a handful of undocumented ones.
But i like to say my experience in martial arts and grappling i know a few things.
Pins and riding are crucial because they are a dominate position. Even working a submission only rule set a pin is a dominate position and before landing the sub, you nee to have a dominate position and pinning is crucial. I will admit that guard work and ref's position could be consider dominate, but then that leads into scrambling and scrambling is a different tangent on what is being discussed.
My definition of BJJ based rules comes from using IBJJF, EBI, ADCC, and Abu Dhabi.
Sambo players make a comfortable because they're reimbursed by their government. Again I'm not being rude but i think there are some short sidedness in your POV.
Can i ask you your own training background?
again i'm a judo nidan and hs wrestling coach, so in the scope of things nothing like a MMA trainer or champ but i know a few things
One thing that makes me wary of your rebuttal is the short sightedness of how crucial is to get a dominate position/pin hold which can lead you into your submission.
>>854144
riding is only relevant on people who can't position guard and prefer to give their backs.
pinning worthless if you can't pass guard first.
I do agree the top game of wrestling is absurdly better and puts way more pressure and that judo has a much better stand up than bjj, but guard passing and positioning are much more crucial than anything else.
>>854144
>concussions
>brain damage
I'm curious about different styles but I thought grappling styles were safer in terms of brain damage since you don't get punched in the head a lot. How did you get concussions from grappling?
>>854144
my background if BJJ
>>854144
>Pins and riding are crucial because they are a dominate position
well thats missing the point entirely.
nobody was dissing "pins" as in using a top heavy pressure game. but pins as a winning condition in a sumbission only competition wouldnt make any sense.
of course even some BJJers use "pins". howerver the existance of guard pullers and bottom players discredits your assertion that "pins and riding are crucial" since these people have no problem getting submissions without pinning
>>854144
>My definition of BJJ based rules comes from using IBJJF, EBI, ADCC, and Abu Dhabi.
1. adcc is abu dhabi (achu dhabi combat club)
2. while abu dhabi was cancieved as a freeform competition at first, it did have plenty of bjj based rules in how points were awarded.
3. since submission only competitions have started (eddie bravos, metamoris...) there is no longer any excuse. since these competitions basically have no rules except some fouls (which every grappling sport has) and the win conditions. these win conditions are the reason why judokas and wrestlers mostly dont win, since they mostly train for ippons and pins instead of making your opponent tap
>>854174
Getting slammed on your head will do that and you get a lot of face contact in tough grappling. My first wrestling match earned me a pretty badass looking eye from getting a rough cross face. Also getting choked out a lot can cause brain damage.
>>854187
getting slammed on your upper back/neck is just as bad really.never heard of brain damage from choking though
>>854129
You've never been punched in the face before on the ground, I take it.
>>854129
lesnar didnt train a day ob BJJ and pretty much dominated mir the BJJ specialist with pinning and GNP
>hurr no he cross trained
in catch wrestling with billy robinson
>>854173
All of is crucial depending on what you want. But now we are leaning more toward talking about scrambling and active moving and not pinning and riding.
I'm a huge MMA fan and love seeing the current trends of high level guys. 2 of my favorite fighters to watch in terms of technical grappling are Ben Askren and Phil Davis. Both have great wrestling ground game that have been implemented into their MMA styles and one aspect of wrestling ground work that has been trending for the last 2 years maybe 3 is favoring the leg ride ride or hard ride then using both hooks. I wanted to post these gifs in the punch or hammer strike discussion but i'll post them here. Watch the undercard of the last UFN where Dominick Cruz was commentating and he hints/breaks down what most high school wrestling coaches tell their kids. Riding is crucial, and add in punches (hand fighting cross face) and its devastating.
Although I'm mainly a judoka and wrestler there are some BJJ stylist that integrate heavy wrestling into their BJJ and MMA, 2 being Ryan Hall and Damian Maia. Ryan Hall and Damian Maia both have great instructional about guard retention but also go into great lengths about the principles of what one needs and what one needs to deny their opponent to pass or keep. Wrestlers have an innate ability to pass and scramble, which we both can agree lead to a crushing top game. To connect these 2 topic together, the flow chart if you want to think of BJJ like that is to pass, what a lot of wrestlers/judoka like to do as they pass, is to stack, Now after the stack happens uke has 2 options depending, guard retention or turtle/refs position.
Now ryan hall promotes a great way of thinking, how do you limit your opponent's options and make them do what you want them So depending on the pass turtle is viable and leg riding is as viable.
>>854187
I've been concussed a few times from really heated randori or going live and even with the best ukemi a good throw is sometimes hard to protect yourself and you'll get knocked out. Doesnt happen all the time, but the longer you do something well something is bound to happen.
Like >>854189
getting choked out, you don't really get real risk of massive brain damage or nothing.
>>854204
One thing that i forgot to mention and post was the excellent work of BJJ Scout and his break down on pressure passing, which i think has excellent synergy for top players like wrestlers an judoka and really focuses on Ryan Hall's principle of option denial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujuSIjshSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAWqGfDm0x4
>>854204
you did not just say ryan hall integrates wrestling into his game...
the man is like a BJJ guard puller on steroids, hell find any way to latch on to you and transition to your back, he has absolutely 0 skill in pinning or being top heavy on his opponents
>>854209
A guy on my wrestling team blacked out during live a few weeks back so it can happen.
>>854215
I have and listen to Ryan Hall but he is a HUGE proponent of integrating wrestling with BJJ,and in the Virgina wrestling scene he has come in and competed.
i do agree his back attacks are so insane. But watching his clinics he even talks about spiral rides and the key of using wrestling to help with taking the back.
I am not sure the time reference but here's the resource to his back attack DVD.
I own his arm triangle set (which has helped my kata gatame game so much) and his guard pass set (which heavily talks about the crucial bonus of wrestling for top game)
I've been following Hall for the last 12 years he's more then just a guard puller.
Back control DVD vol 1 of 3 (vol 2 and 3 are on the same page so you can click on your own)
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v209687563yKbJyNe
Ryan Hall wrestling this is 2 years old on his facebook he had videos of his matches this year, but i can't find them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=939LQl8rosI
>>854215
I forgot to mention that Hall frequently teams up and wrestles with one of Virginia's largest wrestling clubs and post TUF focused his time at Tri Star working his wrestling with GSP's wrestling partners.
Again i feel there's a miscommunication between us. I can see where you are coming from with Hall's showing in MMA, but listening to his teaching, following his training and listening to him talk he's a huge proponent of wrestling's top game. And as grappler's listening to these principles are valuable to our growth in our styles.
>>854222
yeah. I really hate seeing high school kids dropping like that, And i like to pride myself for the most part my athletes haven't been knocked out in practice. Now throwing up happens a bunch. But never had a kid KO'd
>>854227
always though a flying armbar and rolling leg lock would be a badass finishing move for a tag team.
>>854200
Brock trained at my gym, in a gi. Someone actually stole it after he left, probably sold it on ebay.
My coach never mentioned him training with Billy. They did bring in Marty Morgan's dad for a bit who was a catch wrestler and bare knuckle boxer.
But my coach's background is primarily in Wrestling, BJJ and Catch wrestling. He definitely did BJJ.
>>854200
>muh one example
I can give you hundreds of examples of wrestlers trainning bjj/getting rekt by bjj.
and where is your citation that brock never trained bjj or trained ONLY with billy robinson?
>>854204
I honestly do not believe wrestlers or judokas are naturally good at passing. guard passing against a guard specialist is hard m8. have you seem kron vs otavio? nigga bjj guys spend years specializing in those two skills. it's literally what you spend most of every bjj match doing. passing/preventing pass. what makes you think judokas and wrestlers can magically know how to do something they never did before?
in MY experience they will go straight into your guard and I see that repeating again and again on youtube.
>>854246
I remember reading in the papers about Hall going into TUF with a neck injury. But i didn't know he learned the imanari roll on TUF. I recall episode 1 his bout to get into the house he landed the roll.
So its implied he has been training it for awhile.
>>854255
Can I ask you your experience and level? Again just wondering. And yes I've seen that gracie match. I hope you're not thinking I'm attacking or insulting BJJ guys or the specialist that focus on guard passing or retention. So please don't get so defensive. This is just me putting in my 2 cents from 20 years of grappling.
I agree with you that at the beginning level judoka and wrestler will sit in people's guards. However the aggressive nature to scramble due to the low newaza time and because of sutemi waza you will see mid to high level judoka use the knee slice pass over and over or pressure stack. Will this work 100%? Maybe maybe not but that belongs to the individual trying to impose their technique. Same with wrestlers a good mat specialist wrestler will stack, and turking and riding are the same principles of BJJ's Tozi Pass, which is why you'll see a lot of wrestler who play BJJ favor it (i know i'm guilty of that myself)
Again i'm really not being rude but you are coming off as defensive and a tad combative.
The original point of the post mention wasn't to put down BJJ as a style but the viability of leg riding as a platform for attack.And how forcing the pass and turning it into a stack and turning that into turtle becomes a huge avenue for judoka and wrestlers to impose their game on BJJ players.
>>854278
if your such a bad ass why are you on 4chan?
>>854282
Porn is good, decent generals on vidya, and most important to me is probably the best place online to make/get gifs and webms made for MMA and grappling.
>>854282
Why are you so butthurt that there is someone out there better than you at martial arts? Like lesson one for everyone in the martial arts is learning that there's someone who is always going to be better than you.
>>854258
Nah, he specifically said in an interview maybe after the fight that he learned the roll right before his TUF fights because of the neck injury.
>>854301
huh didn't hear that before. got a link to the interview? assuming its probably one of the post TUF Finale win interview things?
>>854282
just reminds me we let whats his faces thread against the florida anon die before we got resolution if they would fight or not.
>>854304
It was on TV at some point or maybe a stream. No reason to make it up.
>>854324
oh no doubting you just like hearing him talk and explain stuff.
>>854278
18 months of bjj, 18 of judo and I just started folk a few months ago. all 3 gyms had world level coaches.
>nature to scramble due to the low newaza time
if by scramble you mean turtling up as soon as possible alright m8
>>854332
again that's low level and I'll agree that its all to common BUT good judo and wrestling ground work focuses on scrambling. In fact all good newaza guys will use the throw attempt to open their newaza and control the scramble.
Scrambling is key to all styles not just BJJ and the type of scrambling wrestling provides which is rewarding and forcing the stand up from bottom and judo's scrambling which attacks for the submission the instant it hits the floor are valuable tools an assets that BJJ players should and have had to learn to cross train. So again I'm not dissing BJJ but trying to promote what is valuable to learn that a lot of grappling beginners overlook due to misconceptions.
>>854347
wrestling does have an interesting scrambling besides the part they give their backs. I still didn't roll with bjj to test the stuff Im learning in wrestling but we'll see how it goes. I did see some wrestlers scrambling in MMA against non bjj guys. but I feel that I will take from folkstyle are the takedowns and top game (which are awesome). which are cool, but again, if I miss the takedown/guy pulls guard they are useless without guard passing.
and nah m8, I'm sick tired of hearing about the "good judo gyms with amazing newaza".
I trained with brazilian olympians, national champs and etc and that's pretty much their newaza. wanna know what they did for ground work besides doing it once in a while and learning one or two positions/techniques? hired a bjj to teach them. and I know brazilian judo is better than american judo, so nah dude.
and honesty, discussing this is like discussing politics or religion. when I ask questions that involve a skill set that are not familiar to the coach, every fucking time they are going to go all fanboy and say stuff that protect their own art no matter what. I have only seem 3 coaches in my life admitting their own art doesn't have an answer to every (grappling) situation.
>>854372
So I'm honestly asking cause you seem salty/cynical/annoyed about this whole discussion. I like to think I am rather reasonable with my responses and yes I do admit i have a bias because of my background in judo and wrestling, but because this like discussing politics/religion, why even talk. The discussion has been open and i think rather friendly and I think you should be a tad more open minded and patient with judo's newaza and scrambling because its an great asset to have. I'll admit that Brazil's judo is probably better as a whole and piece meal to America's judo. However being a part of NA's judo community there are a good amount of dojo's with good newaza. I know this may seem like a annoyance or sore subject but for me and plenty of other judoka who focus on ground work I like to pride myself holding my own with other ground work specialist. Are we perfect or invincible? nah, and yes my newaza is a mix of my wrestling which makes it different from just straight judo. But again i'll repeat and advocate what i said in the beginning and don't underestimate and be mindful of groundwork from other styles.
>>848241
Is wrestling even a style? How can acting with gay acrobatics be astyle?
>>848241
This is obviously bait.
On a sidenote, your question is way to vague. Wrestling can win and BJJ can win, depends on many factors (if you can lie on your back for hours +1 for BJJ, if you fight on pavement +1 for wrestling, if you can add punches both games change a lot).
>>854648
what's wrong with a good ol bait thread?
>>854115
Wrestlers and Judoka train primarily to throw and pin people. As a result they're good at throwing and pinning people, not that great subs (most wrestlers don't train them, most Judoka train them as an afterthought.)
BJJ guys train to grab submissions, and VERY secondary, other grappling concepts. this makes them top tier at subs, but not that great at the takedowns, throws, pins, etc.
As a result, most serious athletes know they wouldn't do great in each others competitions, and thus don't bother to compete.
this isn't a difficult concept.
>>854914
you sure like to samefag also posting gifs with all your post makes you the same as a tripfag and its autistic as fuk
>>854408
not talking about pro wrestling, you imbecile
Beej doesn't train enough pins or throws.
They rant about how "X% of fights end on the ground", but they completely ignore how many fights are ended with pins and throws.
Hell, they even go so far as to completely ban a large portion of throws by calling them "slams". They refuse to learn ukemi and then try to make up for it by banning anything remotely useful from their competitions.
>>854914
>BJJ guys train to grab submissions, and VERY secondary, other grappling concepts
agreed, but dont make the false assumption that sub only comps = bjj influenced.
sub only with no points or time limits is the purest expression of grappling
>>855214
the purest form of grappling is subjective
to some its a good slam
to some its a good submission
to some its controlling scrambles
to some its pinning the guy down
its all grappling and depending on the person that studies it there'y plenty of ways to distill and express itself at highest forms.
>>855197
>ban a large portion of throws
only thing you cant do is lift niggas off the ground and slam. and a lot of slams are banned in wrestling too.
>>855244
Evidently not, given what actually happens in competitions.
>Throwing someone on the ground when they jump up and hug you like a retarded koala is banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0-FtqSFLs
>>855228
>the purest form of grappling is
the one that wins the most
>>854737
That it's shit.
>le ebin bait funposting xDDdD
Kill yourself.
>>855250
still daki age
why are you so buttmad abou it? can't pass guard?
>>855284
>Can't pass guard?
Okay, let me know what I should do when someone jumps up onto me and hugs me.
Gently lower him to the ground and then pass his guard?
Why the fuck should I do that when I can just throw him?
Judo's slam rules (bans picking them up from newaza and throwing them back down) are perfectly adequate. There is no reason to call something a "slam" just because uke was hugging tori like a fuckwit.
>>855286
what would you say if I was bitching that Im not allowed to to attack the legs or head butt in judo? or not allowed to triangle choke in wrestling?
yeah, this is exactly what you look like now fucking faggot
>>855253
Yeah but doing what, and under what win condition?
Think about it. If in Turkish oil wrestling the one who wins is the one who sticks their thumb up their opponent's anus. If this anus attacker wins the most, does this mean he expresses the purest form of grappling?
>>855401
the whole point of turkish oil wrestling's win condition was to rip out the lower intestine in combat. So yeah just because people mock the homosexual undertones and all that, shoving your fucking fist into your opponents hand and then cramming it into their ass is grappling in the purest form and a fucking grisly aspect of combat
applications for maiming and raping.
Turks and muslims in general are fucked in the head.
>>855294
Don't know much about judo, so correct me if im wrong, but isn't the no attacking legs rule one of the disliked ones that was put in place because
>lololympics, don't wanna look like wrestling
As far as headbutting, that's not grappling.
>>855409
what the fuck
>>855409
>the whole point of turkish oil wrestling's win condition was to rip out the lower intestine in combat
what the fuck are you talking about you gigantic moron?
>>848241
Just want to remind everyone that all UFC champions were HS/College wrestlers
>>856890
Who is currently UFC heavyweight champion. Jon Jones.
And what did he do in HS/College? Wrestle. He was undefeated even with minimal amount of BJJ knowledge. Even in Bellator, their champs all have strong wrestling backgrounds. There were very few pure BJJ champs in UFC.
>>856882
Conar McGregor wasnt
and none of the brazlian were either. Same with the guy who just got the middle weight belt. Luke Rockhold was a skater surfboarder back in high school and college. before even consider going pro in skate boarding before taking up BJJ.
its 2016 not 2005 anymore.
>>856895
Jon jones isn't even HW he's a LHW
HW champ Fabrício Werdum
BJJ black belt
LHW Daniel Cormier
Wrestler Olympic gold meadlist
MW Champ
Luke Rockhold
BJJ black belt
WW champ
Robbie Lawyer
Boxer and MMA brawler
LW Champ
Rafael dos Anjos
bjj black belt
FW Champ
Conar Mcregor
Boxer and kickboxer
>>856899
> connor mcgregor
10 stone hungry skellies dont count
