do you think that muay thai is the best striking art for grapplers?
>squared foot position
>low kicks to hinder movement based strikers
>no need for flexibility to high kicks
>transition from striking range to clinch
>MT clinch itself
>then transition to takedown
sanda also has some cool leg takedowns but i think it is subpar compared to MT
That or boxing. Assuming you're willing to get in the pocket.
>>798974
why boxing?
>>799030
Because it's a very natural combo. Punches or their threat to set up the takedown and the takedown or its threat to set up punches, not to mention dirty boxing, or the ability to box effectively from the clinch.
![costanza[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/vAVEU9j.jpg "costanza[1].jpg")
>>798962
>people still think that you have to pick a sport striking system different from your sport
>he doesn't do an integrated striking system
>2012
>>799042
if your opponent wants to avoid grappling he will most often step back from your shit tier punches unless they are cornered or have their mobility impaired.
im pretty sure elbows are better for close range than dirty boxing.
but im not sure how good boxers are to get into the clinch compared to MT fighters.
>>798962
Sanda is better. Why? Because Cung Le, that's why, motherfucker!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EPH0jJzSU
Seriously tho. Unusual, seldom drilled against takedowns mixed with the striking. Perfect for a grappler.
>>799083
>shit tier punches
>boxing
This is how you know someone is retarded, everyone. Elbows are obviously a good tool for close range, but you can't do everything with elbows. Looping blows to the sides of the body or simply holding a guy down with one hand and throwing uppercuts with the other can have tremendous effect. Boxing also has generally better footwork than Muay Thai, and you're missing the point of the transition from a good stopping jab to a takedown or threatening the takedown to land effective punches. Georges St. Pierre made a career out of this.
>>799110
There's literally no reason to do sanda outside of sinophilia or being a hipster
>>799120
>literally no reason
>a kickboxing style that integrates standup grappling beyond the clinch and has slick throws and trips, particularly off kick catches
>>799120
Not doing it for the sake of not doing it is more the hipster move, actually.
>>798962
as mainly a judoka I admire the hell out of Muay Thai specially their clinch work and there is so much synergy with there clinching and judo. not only does this striking style give grapplers a system to safely enter clinch range, i admire the hell out of how they generate kuzushi, unlike us judoka which is those moments of off balance to lead our opponents to throws, they use kuzushi to lead their opponents to knees and elbows and a few nifty dump style takedowns and foot sweeps.
Boxing does get my respect to, but in my minds eye the tool set and clinch fighting of MT are more attractive, even though boxing does have the dirty box clinch. But ultimately to each their own and whatever they can learn near them that is high quality.
>>799186
>>799188
somehow spamming backspace swallowed up my post. but i wanted to comment how the arm triangle/kata gatame clinch happens frequently in MT, choking is illegal but doesn't stop fighters from cranking on the choke before letting go to land a elbow or punch on the break. as judoka (and specially one that has kata gatame as one of his fav hold downs and chokes) seeing this type of clinch work and standing choke shows some of the synergy judo and MT have. where as a MT guy cranks the choke and then hits a elbow on the break, for me as a judoka i see a great opening to hit a standing submission then slamming uke with an osto gari variant that lands me instantly in a choke and or pin.
>>799083
>boxers punches
>shit tier
yeah ok
>>799195
This is one huge reason why i am a fan of MMA the blending of striking and grappling in combos or chains. An again why i am a huge proponent of MT and Judo blended together.
>>799083
boxers are able to close the distance very fast you shouldn't have to worry about your opponent stepping back out of range.
>>799198
I am dumping all my muay thai clinch gifs. but i want to add this. boxing has great synergy for wrestlers, or rather grapplers who like to shot from outside. which is one reason why we see the wrestle/box spec so much in MMA. Going to have to sift through my gifs but one of the prettiest techniques to evolve out of MMA and that blends 2 styles is when a wrestler does a over hand punch and uses the forward momentum of the punch to give their shot extra speed, also tactically your opponent is defending an attack going up but your true attack is going toward the bottom. Frankie Edgar at Light weight was great and landing that kind of shot as was Josh Thompson.
>>799203
>>799120
This is how you know someone is retarded, everyone.
>>799204
>>799193
He's right, though. Wing Chun has the superior punches.
>>799192
This
I´m not good on hip throws, seoi nages and that kind of throws, but i´m very goog on countering and going to newaza, but i remember seeing a kata gatame while standing and then osoto gari in a mma fight and i said i can do that, the next day at the dojo did the thing and it worked.
>>799207
>>799211
can i ask you what your belt color is? not trying to put you down or nothing. just wondering. I'm a 2nd degree black belt and high school wrestling coach. I've taught more then a handful of color belts who are spec like you and it works to fight like that to a point but more often then not a lot of people burn out fast and plateau even faster.Being so defensive . Being able to open your hips and form your forward throws is going to exponentially improve your judo and enjoyment of the art and sport. Like you probably are experiencing and feeling its painfully slow and frustrating but you need to keep up, especially learning to develop your offensive move set. Just my 2 cents but i am thinking your own coach is probably telling you the same
>>799217
>>799217
Not that anon but I cannot into seoi nage because I'm a lanklet and getting low enough is a fucking pain.
My go-tos are ogoshi and osoto-gari. I was working on uchi mata but moved countries so judo isn't viable at present.
Wat do?
>>799220
>>799223
>>799222
well honestly? you're not near a judo dojo so you can't really fine tune your touki wazas or work on uchi mata. I want to knit pick and tell you that even if you're a taller skinnier judoka you should and you will hit seoi naga with enough mat time to practice.
Is there any wrestling or BJJ? I'll say this i am quite impressed with BJJ's high level players they have evolved seoi nage into their own variant that works for them, which is a weird "sloppy" half step in (sloppy in terms of judo terms, their variant would never score ippon, and if they still gave kokas, it would score) but it works and is pretty in its own unique way. look up Rodolfo Vieira seoi nage.
IF you really want to develop your seoi nage, i mean i can give you some input but you really need the mat time to fine tune and develop.
>>799234
wrong gif
>>799234
Here's the BJJ variant I'm talking about, i want to high light how big of a gap the BJJ varianrt has, they're not loading their opponent on their back like the judo variant, there is more of a hand pull and the entrance of the drop makes their opponent fall to the side (this does reduce the risk of a back take )
why is there always that one fucking autist who spams every thread with fighting gifs
>>799113
if you are primarily a grappler, your punches will be shit
the striking art is a means to an end
>>799222
why do you want to go for seoi if you are a lanklet? uchi mata and osotogari require much less skill and are much safer
>>799268
uchi mata requires a lot of skill
same with the timing with osoto gari.
>>799266
Thats not true at all you can still have good punchesIf your primarily a grappler. and if you have a limited amount time to dedicate to striking boxing is the best option you could pick. its easier to pick up the basics and you will get the stamina and reflexes of a striker faster than the other striking arts.
>>799270
not nearly as much as seoi. lanklets have it easy.
>>799030
Boxing is the combat sport of the highest speed, punches being the fastest attack the human body is capable off, and with proper technique, able to deliver huge amounts of power in blows to very specific areas of the body for very specific outcomes.
Boxing is also the natural striking progression of human beings, as thoughout the life of the human species there has always been the natural progression from gross motor skill based movement for fine motor skills, like balanced walking on two legs with the use of arms as a means of dexterity as the primary manipulators.
While we are by no means yet at a level where someone with only a boxing skillset can take on someone with a whole body skillset, the use of a fighting art that uses the lower body only for movement, that includes the basic practise of avoiding incoming attack and retaliating with extreme emphasis of foot placement and support is the future of martial arts and humanity in the long term.
But in the here and now, boxing by its fast paced nature is the greatest tool for training the most essential tools in any fighters arsenal, their hand-eye coordination, depth-perception, reflexes/muscle memory (instinctively reacting to opponents movements) and the ability to produce powerful focused attacks to attack key weaknesses in the human body to KO or disable the enemy for a combo to finish them.
Naturally most of the skills developed in boxing translate into any other striking art, with the naturally developed high level condition and fitness being beneficial to anyone.
Boxing should be seen as "advanced upper body striking training" as opposed to a "flawed style without kicking or kick defense".
Even if you already train Muay Thai, supplementing to enhance your skillset is necessary to high level skills progression.
>>799380
>and with proper technique, able to deliver huge amounts of power in blows
Except kicks are more powerful.
>to very specific areas of the body for very specific outcomes.
Accuracy certainly isn't unique to Western Boxing.
>Boxing is also the natural striking progression of human beings
>Boxing is good for beginner fighters
>as thoughout the life of the human species there has always been the natural progression from gross motor skill based movement for fine motor skills, like balanced walking on two legs with the use of arms as a means of dexterity as the primary manipulators.
wut
>includes the basic practise of avoiding incoming attack
Except it Western Boxing's kick defense is suboptimal, and it's clinch game is very poor.
It is a very narrow "martial art", so much so that it's leaning relatively heavily on the sport side.
>the use of a fighting art that uses the lower body only for movement
>is the future of martial arts
No, it's not the future of martial arts.
MMA is in the future of hand to hand martial arts. With MMA's lack of restriction of technique, fighters may use techniques best suited for various situations that may be present during combat, rather than using less efficient techniques that would adhere to rules of Western Boxing; the MMA fighter doesn't force an inefficient tool to do the job, the MMA fighter chooses the best tool for the job. With MMA being a competitive combat sport, martial artists are encouraged to evolve, rather than stagnate (potentially in a lack of efficiency).
>is the greatest tool for training the most essential tools in any fighters arsenal
Except it doesn't train all of the essential tools; and if it does, it doesn't train all of them well.
>their hand-eye coordination
Not their elbow-eye coordination, knee-eye coordination, or their foot-eye coordination.
Also, it's not even hand-eye coordination, it's fist-eye coordination.
>>799380
>>799400 continuation
>>799380
>depth-perception
Western Boxing is extremely lacking in the depth-perception of kicks, not to mention grappling.
>reflexes/muscle memory
Except it only trains that for punching techniques, not training the rest of the martial artist's arsenal. It's like only doing bicep curls when expecting to develop muscles of the whole body.
>and the ability to produce powerful focused attacks to attack key weaknesses in the human body to KO or disable the enemy for a combo to finish them.
This is definitely not limited to boxing.
>with the naturally developed high level condition
Do you mean "coordination?" If so, no. It takes much more dexterity and coordination for Taekwondo.
>and fitness
It's as if you're saying practitioners of other martial arts aren't fit.
>Boxing should be seen as "advanced upper body striking training" as opposed to a "flawed style without kicking or kick defense".
Boxing without modification when viewed as a whole with other martial arts should be seen as a "Narrow martial art flawed by sports, as it's evolution was to excel as a sport rather than a martial art."
>Even if you already train Muay Thai, supplementing to enhance your skillset is necessary to high level skills progression.
Necessary? No.
Helpful? Yes.
>>799380
none of the shit you said makes sense, has evidence to support it or is relevant besides the last one, which by the way, has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is "striking art of grapplers" and not "what is the best upper body stirking art".
>>798962
>do you think that muay thai is the best striking art for grapplers?
If you want my opinion, I think the following combinations compliment each other the best:
-Boxing + Judo
-Muay Thai + BJJ
Boxing and Judo, because both are first and foremost about Clean technique, Speed and "flow". Also they help each other with their weaknesses: As a Judoka you should have strong legs, so a low kicks wouldn't stop you from getting close. Boxing allows you a very good distance management, plus the strikes go very naturally into throws (shovel hook into underhook into throw..). In other words: boxing helps you to get in the clinch, Judo helps you from there.
Also Boxing and Judo are both about being mobile and staying at your feet, if you would kick, you'd not only lose mobility and risk a sweep, you'd also give away the option to use explosive footwork for powerthrows, which is bad for a Judoka because it's his major strength.
Muay Thai + BJJ, because they compliment each other very well:
Kicking allows for sweeps, but if you know BJJ you'll be very good at the ground, so you don't have to be afraid of sweeps anymore.
On the other hand, BJJ has the "weakest" throws of all grappling styles, but here MT can can come in handy, because the strong clinch game and the sweeps.
I would think a grappler would want to keep both feet on the ground as much as posible.
With that in mind I would say dirty boxing and/or bare knuckle boxing.
While not the "best" striking art, it is great for grapples.
Also it should be noted that sanda is a rule set that has striking and throws in boxing gloves (think MMA with no ground fighting and different gloves). It is not necessarily a martial art of its own. It was partially made to get kung fu people to do full contact fighting.
>>799596
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ7bbmjtAB0
>>799684
This video is misplaced here for so many reasons..
Those guys are not grapplers. And it's a little bit cherry picking, because I could show you a lot of videos where Grappelrs with Boxing alone totally wreck Kick boxers / Thai boxers. See how lowkicking works out here:
>protip: it doens't
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvXjF1oadgk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNnvwS960-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyHaQ4tJNkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2198cVFdgA
>>799664
depends on the grappler. there are lots of grapplers who specialize in standing up and throwing such as wrestlers and some judo guys. Not every grappler is a ground fighter.
>>799703
>Those guys are not grapplers.
No shit.
>where Grappelrs with Boxing alone totally wreck Kick boxers / Thai boxers
>training in a striking art and a grappling art is better than a single striking-based art
No shit.
>>799684
I dont think its very likely your gonna get into a fight with a professional heavyweight kickboxer.
>>799400
Kicks and kick defense are honestly the least important part of self defense. Punch defense is much more valuable.
>>799407
Did you really just say fucking taekwondo takes much more coordination than boxing? I dont think you have a single day of boxing expierience.
>>799923
I don't think you have a single day of Taekwondo experience.
>>799400
>except kicks are more powerful
A boxer can throw several punches (or step away and back in) during the time of one kick, Kicks are slow, you could only catch a boxer with one at close range, in which case you've already lost.
>accuracy isn't unique to western boxing
No, but accurate people who can knock out other people with 16oz pillows on their hands are much more dangerous when they are accurate, as all boxers are.
>wut
You couldn't grasp the concept if that went over your head.
>kick defense is suboptimal
I did say supplement boxing with a kicking style, you mustn't have read that part however.
>MMA is the future
>People actually believe this
MMA is a joke, no one trains in "MMA" MMA fighters all train in individual styles, with professional ones (who have the money) operating out of an "MMA Gym" with private instructors in those separate style.
But they can put in HOURS of training EVERY DAY, because it is their career.
A civi who trains in "MMA" ~5 hours a week will be inferior to any other single style dedicated fighter who trains for the same duration.
>MMA's lack of restriction of technique
kek
>except it doesn't train the essential tools
Have you ever boxed?
A boxing conditioning circuit is the same as any MMA conditioning circuit, with kettlebells, squats and what have you. It is the high level skills training that sets it apart, learning to master movement, form, speed, power, and ducking and weaving enemies attacks to keep your hands free to strike back.
The pace cannot be matched by any sport that uses other extremities, because they slow the pace.
Hand-eye coordination is a general term for someone who coordinates their bodies movements well, someone good at hacky sack doesn't have good 'knee/foot eye coordination" they have good "hand eye coordination" you bloody idiot.
>>799931
I have several thousand (or tens of thousands?). Punches are far harder to defend and require a lot more precision.
>>799407
>depth perception of kicks
Depth perception isn't relative to any particular observation, it is a trained skill of eyesight exclusively, having to determine the distance of an object moving towards to at high speed so you can retaliate within that limited amount of time, is training your depth perception, whether it is a hand or a foot makes little difference to what your eyes can see.
Or put it this way, A boxer uses their eyes to follow high speed things moving towards them from an angle at which it is hard to perceive their depth, so they get better at perceiving the depth of things from difficult angles.
Kicks are comparitively easy to see, because you know how far away the floor is, and your eyes both have a better viewing angle looking downwards, it is much more difficult to perceive a punch with good form moving towards your eyes.
>muscle memory
>except it only trains that for punching
but you are wrong, it also trains a boxer in instinctively move and coordinate their body to step in out and to the side of incoming attacks, as well as shoulder and head movement to make them difficult to predict, attack, and defend against.
True is the fact they won't have any ingrained kick defense, but something as slow moving as a kick can be easily checked with the most basic of kickboxing instruction, that after a few short hours of training in a mixed striking style it would be a non-issue.
>it's as if your saying practitioners of other martial arts aren't fit.
No, what i'm saying is a BBJer won't get told to go for a run on class time.
But a boxer will, because to function at a base level in the boxing ring they NEED to be fit, because any boxer who has fought in the ring is fit, where in other styles it isn't a strict requirement.
Hell I could run a no.9 on the shuttle run/beep test from 2 years of karate experience and literally no cardio, where a boxer who ran every day would be running 6 minute miles after 2 years
>>799931
I took tae kwon do for a little over a year. Boxing is alot more demanding and requires alot more coordination.
>>799546
that makes a lot of sense.
>>799703
in a grappling vs striking contest this is the usual result. but this is not the point of this thread.
the point is the synergy of grappling WITH striking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kADnct0xwjQ
exa
judo+boxing vs muay thai
and boxing + bjj vs muay thai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIE-uZN07aA
then we get the recent rousey's match, which is judo+boxing vs kick boxing
>>799919
pretty sure thai boxers can deal with punch defense enough for street fights. even against a boxer.
>>799963
>>799986
This is one of the easier tae kwon do kicks.
Let's see your ass do that shit, faggot. It's not physically demanding and doesn't require coordination, after all.
>>800303
It's a 540 turning. They're easy and worthless for anything that isn't a demonstration. You're about on par with the CMAfags posting dudes dancing and saying how deadly they are right now.
>>800308
>and worthless for anything that isn't a demonstration
>I don't know how to use it, so it's worthless
If you think that's easy, you should know how much boxing is a walk in the park.
Nice image that provides no proof whatsoever.
>>799083
I'd say the old days of boxing when they were allowed to work in the clinch or fight out of it and the ref rarely seperated them (unlike now where you get like 5 seconds before it's broken apart) boxing honestly measured up in the clinch. Lots of important things like head positioning and momentum and certain pot shots are learnt as well as breaking the clinch to set up strikes.
MT is probably more effective in the clinch now but boxing is much better to learn due to movement and distance being a much better asset. I'd say boxings downside is the wide stance which is prone to leg kicks.
>>800305
Ive had plenty of people try to punch me. Not one time has anyone tried to kick me.
>>800036
Against a random then yeah. Against a boxer then probably not. Im not saying the boxer would win but the muay thai fighter would be stupid to try to outbox the boxer.
>>798962
Yes. Boxing is good too but muay thai have good clinches and very powerful blows. The only problem of MT is balance but if you're not afraid of the ground it's perfect.
>>799120
There's literally no reason to shit-talk sanda.
Unless you are a contrarian hipster.
>>800491
>the muay thai fighter would be stupid to try to outbox the boxer.
true, but doesn't need to. he would defend punches well enough to land kicks, clinch, elbow, knee and throw
>>800340
if that's the case kick boxing or dutch muay thai is superior to boxing. there is absolutely no reason to learn boxing if you have those two.
>>800490
>Not one time has anyone tried to kick me.
>What few things I've experienced is enough to draw a consensus on literally billions of different people living in different locations who have billions of different situations.
>>803562
>>803562
very rarely but yes it has happened.
>>803581
they are different. Every kick boxer would gain a huge advantage by cross training in boxing.
>>800305
yes but the punching and punch defense in muay thai isn't even close to the level of boxing. thats why you should cross train if you want to be a complete fighter.
>>804358
A lot more in TKD than in MMA.
>>804367
Except doing certain Boxing things in Kickboxing or Muay Thai will get you a kick to the leg, a kick to the stomach, a kick to the chest, a kick to the face, a knee to the leg, a knee to the stomach, a knee to the chest, a knee to the face, an elbow, or taken down.
>>804399
>Except doing certain Boxing things in Kickboxing or Muay Thai
MMA, too.
>>804399
Thats true but you shouldn't really pick up any bad habits from cross training. why do you think so many mma fighters train with boxing coaches to help their stand up? go in and learn as much as you can from boxing and use whats useful in your kickboxing or mma. it will do nothing but help your stand up immensely.
>>804399
I transitioned from boxing to mma and once I got past that awkward transitional phase my boxing experience helped me a ton in standup and gave me a big advantage that i wouldn't have had otherwise. good solid boxing is a great tool to have for mma that not many people have. i think if your focusing on muay thai primarily and cross train and boxing a couple times a week you shouldn't have any problems. i would definitely recommend it to anyone looking to improve their standup especially considering how cheap and easily available it is.
>>804809
Except you could just learned Boxing modified for MMA.
>>804847
not all mma gyms have boxing coaches though
>>804856
And not all gyms in general are good.
>>800303
>step back and soon as he takes first step forwards
>easy left hook to right side of his face half second after he lands
hes on the ground if not knocked out
>>800035
>wich is judo + boxing vs kickboxing
This is purely and simply a fucking lie.
>>806517
It's a gross oversimplification, and furthermore one single fight between two very unique fighters (starting with the fact that both have very litte competition in their league) is not a strong indicator for anything.
It's like a let a random Kung Fu dude fight some random Krav Maga dude and try to judge their styles only according to this fight. It's just too special without a good bar to measure anything.
>>798962
Imma Firin mah lazor
>>798962
Is there any other (striking) art that puts emphasis on the clinch?
>>799953
>A boxer can throw several punches (or step away and back in) during the time of one kick, Kicks are slow, you could only catch a boxer with one at close range, in which case you've already lost.
well if that was the case you wouldn't have to supplement your boxing with a kicking style as you yourself recommendet. i agree with you that fist strikes are the most important part of standup fighting. but if you've ever sparred with a fighter who's good with his kicks you know how dangerous kicks are.
>>806562
>Goju Karate
>>806624
fedora answer
Trained in Goju for years, no clinch.
Some neat wrist manipulation though, among many other things most other karates don't get a taste of.
>>806617
I wrote that post you are responding to as a karateka not a boxer, I have only trained boxing for a limited time.
Honestly, until UFC 193 I always thought Judo was the most certain way to defeat a boxer.
Now I'm certain Holly Holms is the picture of what an experienced Boxer with comparatively minimal kickboxing and grappling skills can do.
I'm still that guy that post "Judo+Boxing" in every ideal style thread, despite my Karate background.
Karate is fun.
>>800308
That's a step in 360, mixie.
i've knocked people the fuck out with that.
As in "don't fucking bother counting" Knocked the fuck out. Caught him right in the neck.
>>798962
combat sambo is #1. strikes to throws dudes.
>>798962
And honestly, grapplers
Do you want the hardest carido and leg-mobility focused style? Do TKD instead
My hips open like pop tab cans and are stronger then people 50 lbs heavier.
>>808555
you ever watch combat sambo? its sloppy MMA without the chokes.I'll say this guys who come from sambo can adapt easier to MMA, but they still have to do MMA and not sambo. Sambo is more like #2
>>808560
> my hips open like pop tab cans
So you take after your mother then you raging faggot
>>808560
>grapplers, want to not learn how to deal with the most common attack in all of human history, the punch?
>want to learn shitty point sparring bullshit while paying some korean hundreds of dollars a month?
>want to hang out with other skinny fuccbois while you reach around each other about how superior your style is?
>JOIN TKD!
>>808562
it looks sloppy to you, because you aren't used to seeing russian punches in mma gloves. no style bridges striking to throwing better than sambo. which, if you're a grappler, is what you want.
