now that we have conclusive proof can we please put this grappling>striking meme to bed?
>>767776
no because if ronda had known bjj instead of judo this wouldnt have happened :^)
>1 example vs hundreds that prove the opposite
>>767789
>greatest grappler in the entire league loses to foot work and distancing
>Let's pretend the gracies never happened
>>767794
>greatest grappler in the entire leauge
Was this board always here? What was it called before?
>>767794
>Greatest fighter of all time loses via submission
>>767799
It was called alternative sports.
Now it's called alternative sports and wrestling.
Don't let that confuse you, professional wrestling has been around on this board since its creation.
>implying womens mma is relevant
>wrestlefags brought /v/ level shitposting to /asp/
>>767807
Was it always here or is it one of Hiroshima's trial boards? Never even noticed it before the stick on spee.
>>767796
>On June 14, 2007, the California State Athletic Commission declared that Gracie had tested positive for Nandrolone, an anabolic steroid, after his fight with Sakuraba. According to the California State Athletic Commission, the average person could produce about 2 ng/ml of Nandrolone, while an athlete following "rigorous physical exercise" could have a level of around 6 ng/ml. Both "A" and "B" test samples provided by Gracie "had a level of over 50 ng/ml and we were informed that the level itself was so elevated that it would not register on the laboratory's calibrator,"
certainly it was the grappling, nothing else going on here guys...pay no attention to that man behind the curtain
>>767812
It's a recent board, but it's older than Hiro.
It debuted at the same time as /out/ a few years back.
That's it lads, I'm burning my gi tonight. Gonna join a boxing gym after this.
>>767826
trade in the gi for a sports bra
srsly tho, you see dem back muscles?
>>767787
lmao
goodnight ronda roidsey
>>767798
>>767826
lmao
>>767826
>Gonna join a boxing gym after this.
It was Kickboxing that defeated the Ju.
>>767776
>now that we have conclusive proof can we please put this grappling>striking meme to bed?
No beacuse the general point still stands.
It does not mean "Every grappler can beat every striker at any day", but it means "if you watch a lot of fights, the grappler will beat the striker MOST OF THE TIME".
>>767787
I've seen BJJ blackbelts losing agaist boxers in MMA and also against MT. Stuff like that happens if (AND ONLY IF) we have an exceptional good striker who is prefectly prepared for his opponent. No need to hype anything.
>>768498
Anon, stop trying to be reasonable. These faggots just wanna memelord it up with their ebin reaction faces. This place wasn't exactly great before, but after the name change basically advertised it's existence, I've seen even worse posts than there already were.
>>767776
The lesson from that fight is to stick to your base, and bolster it with another skill set.
Holm is a high level striker who learned enough grappling (from a wrestling coach, and a Judo/BJJ bb) to give her the tools to keep the fight in her preferred sphere.
Rousey is a high level grappler who learned enough striking to take the fight into her preferred sphere, but elected to stand and bang. She's been trying to be a striker for a while now, and her wins (and fanboys) have been egging her on. Now she paid for it. (Spending all of her time posing for photo shoots and doing celebrity wank fests instead of training didn't help.)
What's funny is that we saw better grappling technique from Holm than we did Rousey.
>>770180
here is a thought. maybe rousey isnt even that good of a grappler either?
There is no denying she has judo skills, but that is of course just one type of grappling. She would sink her submission in moments after her takedown occurred as a follow up as expected of someone that does judo.
in this fight she got taken down, didn't have that immediate set up for a sub, and couldn't mange to even keep the fight on the ground.
This tells me she can only fight on the ground if she has a dominant position.
>>767776
No, they really believe it.
>>770358
Garbage.
Ronda had fights where the other fighter temporarily had a dominant position, i.e. against Cat Zigano. But she's just amazing in getting back at a dominant position instantly.
She a Judoka so of course you won't see her pulling guard so much, just as you won't see it from a wrestler. But that doesn't mean she isn'T a great grappler, because she is.
In this fight she got taken down because she had to eat a lot of punches and Holms was pretty defensive and agile the whole time. But no way on earth Holms would have won if she had tried to start a grappling match.
>>767776
The only reason grapplers dominate in mma is because there are very few exceptional strikers in mma compared to exceptional grapplers. If your a great wrestler mma is really the only way to make any money but if your a fantastic boxer professional boxing is gonna be alot more lucrative and you won't have to bother learning any grappling. Even most of the so called great strikers in mma today aren't that great by a pure striking standard. If you had more exceptional boxers and kick boxers in mma you would see alot more of this.
>>770795
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvme71_029-randy-couture-vs-james-toney-ufc-118-28-08-2010_sport
To be a good mixed martial artist, you need to (listen closely):
MIX
MARTIAL
ARTS
Holm won because she obviously trained on how to deal with Ronda's judo, which was Ronda's only fucking thing that she was known for. Holm didn't prove that striking > grappling. She proved that MMA fighters need to have a solid background in everything, or they're going to be abused.
>>770795
>The only reason grapplers dominate in mma is because there are very few exceptional strikers in mma compared to exceptional grapplers.
lol what u smoking bro, can i have some
>>770850
no she proved that footwork can overcome even olympic level grappling technique and takedowns arent some kind of magic bullet
the only reason the fight ever went to the ground was becuase holm was the one who took it there, scored the takedown and then got back on her feet
>>767776
Ronda rousey just got ko'd guise!
Strikers 1
Grapplers 35332245633355
This is definitive proof, right?
>>770927
yes it is. The only downfall of strikers in grappler match ups is they try to fight them like they are fighting another striker. Control the center line, cut angles, use your distance. That is how you beat a grappler who...wait for it...needs to actually grab on to you to use their techniques.
if someone has an easier time grabbing on to you than you have hitting them in the face and retreating, that just exposes your shortcomings as a fighter, not of the techniques you tried to use.
>>770981
Isn't this the same Shit tma dancers use to justify when they lose fights?
>it's not that Kata isn't the superior training merhod, he just didn't train hard enough
>>770994
Yes it is. The person you're arguing with has proven that they are delusional in the face of massive evidence.
>>770994
style vs style match ups are stupid. If you accept its not the art its the practitioner we can continue talking, if not we are done.
now moving on, the point isn't that striking>grappling, its that grappling is not superior to striking.
this fight showed us that high level striking is really more than sufficient to deal with high level grappling as long as you control the fight. She kept it standing, if you can't do that your striking has failed, if you can their grappling has failed.
What strikers need to take away from this is when the fight starts you are the one with the advantage, the fight begins in your realm, they have to take you out of it and put you in theirs. Your #1 key to success is stopping them from doing that with your footwork.
the ease at which some people get taken down is more so a testament to how badly people neglect footwork and balance than the effectiveness of said takedowns.
Connor is another example of this, he controls the center and has exceptional balance because of how limber he is. You need to be comfortable hitting form awkward angles to be a successful striker, not just stand there and brawl like an idiot the way some people think they are supposed to.
>>768026
Well, it was a kick.
From a champion boxer.
>>768026
>boxing champion
>Hundreds punches landed
>2 kicks used
>It was kickboxing !!
>>771008
Considering how often strikers get beat by grapplers though, would you at least be willing to admit that strikers are fighting at a disadvantage? Obviously it can be n overcome as we saw in rousey vs holm, but the general rule seems to be that grapplers win because using footwork to stop grappling is a lot harder than beating footwork with grappling.
grappling>striking does not equal to grappler>striker, and it still has exceptions
>>774596
not that guy but it brings up and interesting question.
For the sake of argument lets take the following as givens:
Only two styles exist.
One cannot reach a skill level above master.
Masters of both styles fight equally.
Style 1 takes 6 skill to master.
Style 2 takes 3 skill to master.
The average skill of a person is 5.
Now we can deduce that for any given fight style 2 has a higher chance of winning because on average a practitioner of style 2 can use his style closer to a master level.
Which of the following deductions is correct?
>Style 1 is inferior to Style 2 because it requires more skill for the same result.
>Style 1 and 2 are equal because the upper limit of both styles are equal in effectiveness.
>Style 2 is superior because on average a person is more likely to master it/reach a competitive level of competence.
I have no idea what the answer is so I'm hoping someone can reply with something interesting.
deduction 1 and 3 are the same I just added the 3rd because the wording is closer to what you were addressing in your post and what many people on this board say.
>>774596
grapplers have a gravity assist, its not the grappler that takes you down, its the earth, the grappler just needs to put you off balance enough.
strikers need to acknowledge that and not fight someone looking for take down the same way they fight someone that isn't.
thats a big shortfall in grappling, the techniques need to be set up with something, they don't just happen. As a striker you need to deny them that set up which can be done with the proper footwork.
but to answer your question, I have always said grapplers have an advantage in MMA because of the format. The walls reduce mobility and people are walking barefoot on canvass. I think its another story entirely if someone is wearing shoes on a floor with some grip, take down defense can come much more easily I would suspect. format matters, but not as much as the skill and strategy of the person. unfortunately for the strikers, the grapplers work on taking people down, and the strikers dont spend nearly enough time learning ways to not go down
a somewhat unrelated story but this made me think of it. I was one of the testers for the dragonball MMO, I was doing some pvp against someone with a fighter class so I just kept dashing around doing chip damage with energy balls and he couldn't catch me. Had he caught me he would have won quickly, so he started yelling STOP RUNNING YOU FUCKING PUSSY!!! in frustration.
lol, no, why would I do that? you'll win if I do that
going back to my earlier point, proper use of your techniques is more important than the techniques you choose to use.
>>767776
Except holly knows her ground game. There was a instance that she got took down and nearly exposed her arm, Instead she pulled it back and wrestled her way up. That shows that even excellent strikers must crosstrain in grappling to be exceptional
>>774833
>grapplers have an advantage in MMA because of the forma
Not true. There are time limits and stand ups, and aggression is a considered a winning criterion.
>>774901
yeah but grapplers also gotta cross train in striking or your gonna be a baby chinned punch magnet who can't take any hits. no fighter can be one diminutional these days not even grapplers.
>>770866
Its true though. all the best boxers are in boxing. all the best wrestlers have nowhere to go except mma.
>>770850
Everyones seen the randy courture vs james toney fight m8 you don't need to pretend like its something new. James toney was a punch drunk washed up out of shape old man. he took the fight just for the money because he want relevant in boxing anymore. I'm talking about younger guys from boxing and kickboxing background that are exceptional strikers. you have alot of exceptional grappling in mma but alot of the strikers that are good for mma are pretty average at striking by a pure striking standard.
>>767776
we have proof that grappling doesn't work well if your face is a punch magnet. grapplers act like they don't need to cross train because grappling will always magically beat striking like rock paper scisors. you need both to be a complete fighter.
>>774930
Takedowns are scored highly in mma. Not to mention the wrestling mentality in mma is to apply constant pressure in the early rounds. That way, striking becomes child play. An exceptional striker means nothing if they're exhausted.
>>775047
this. complete fighters are going to smash either a pure striker or pure grappler.
>>767776
>using bitches to compare actual combat styles
Yea, well pic related hasn't lost any of his matches in the special Olympics using his white crane kung fu style, so obviously we should all use that...
>>775031
...or the olympics
>>767807
I always figured it was meant for mountain biking or rock climbing or whatever, I figured mma and rasslin belonged on /sp/
>>775093
We have those things too, but /sp/ only watches mma. /asp/ actually practices it
>>774801
Idk but the master of both styles will wreck shit.
Like imagine some futuristic martial arts movie that's basically the divergent movie but with martial arts styles instead of personality.
I hope someone can make a greentext outta that with the whole plot of the movie and some asp memes.
Also said master of both styles should train longer on the harder style to balance out their training. So mma fags should be focused training striking more since grappling is easier to apply with less training.
jiujitsu is the dark side of the force, it is tempting with its illusion of superior power. But it isn't more powerful, it is just a faster path to power with the trade off of a corrupting influence that leaves you reliant on it.
it will ultimately destroy you, just like it destroyed her.
Her rage failed her, it made her prideful and weak
>>775088
olympic wrestlers make chump change don't kid yourself.
Wrestling > striking 2bh
Okay just kidding. But if you're gonna be a good fighter, you have to be able to at least strike. One dimensional fighters always get blown out and picked apart.
See: Anthony Johnson
>>775380
as expected from some shaolin mcdojo striker
her biggest weapon was the judo, not bjj
>>775527
>>770358
>in this fight she got taken down, didn't have that immediate set up for a sub, and couldn't mange to even keep the fight on the ground.
>This tells me she can only fight on the ground if she has a dominant position.
that's why if she knew more bjj she could have won that shit.
takedown>submit
can't takedown>pullguard>submit
get taken down>get guard>submit
grapplers are still best. she just didn't have enough bjj. and since she was dealing against a lanklet she could have tried shooting and ankle picking. don't try to outstrike a lanklet who's much better at striking than you.
