Do you know a good place to train Kyokushin in Fort Lauderdale?
>>746126
Nope, it's the same as Dade.
>>746127
Oh, So i guess it's pretty much the same with Shotokan or Goju Ryu
>>746126
Why you wanna do knotty so much op?
>>746134
kyokushin is a child of goju. I personally thing goju is a better choice because there is less emphasis on competition, more on actual fighting
>>749244
This
The child of guko is the real deal
>>749247
enjoy your incomplete slug fest devoid of soft techniques and follow ups
>>749244
I practiced goju ryu for almost 5 years, and I would say it's the other way around for the most part, because kyokushin trains to actively fight in competitions and alike their training is much better suited for actual fighting, where goju often uses less practical methods
>>749278
goju is about overwhelming someone, taking them down, and stomping the shit out of them
>>749242
OP: To reach my goal, which is learning karate and kung fu and training pretty fucking hard in both of them, and then beat as much \boxing+bjj/ guys so i can shut their arrogant mouths and prove that karate and kung fu can be very effective.
>>749276
>enjoy your incomplete slug fest devoid of soft techniques and follow ups
Too bad I actually trained in kick boxing (with a heavy influence from Full Contact Karate), wrestled, and competed in amateur kick boxing and MMA before I ever became interested in Kyokushin.
But nah, of course a strip mall Krotty dojo that doesn't ever actually fight trains fighting better than places that do.
>>749281
>goju is about overwhelming someone, taking them down, and stomping the shit out of them
You can really see that at all of the Goju ryu "dojos" that do 100% kihon and kata and 0% anything else.
>>749307
>oh sweet, so goju
One of the two guys who taught me how to fight (pro kick boxer in the 70's to the early 90's) was Yoshukai and the other is Chito-ryu (also a retired pro kick boxer from the same time frame)
>>749307
>you know there are two schools of goju, right?
Unless OP lives in Okinawa, he's far more likely to get the regular strip mall Krotty experience.
>>749312
the point is if someone is taking goju ryu and can't trace their teacher back to peter urban either directly or via johnny khul, they are learning it from someone using the name of the style without permission and likely not even learning it at all
>>749316
Not the cock-fag you're trying to have gay sex with but his point stands that OP will likely get strip mall experience. SO why then look for the pearl in the pile of shit when he can just take kyokushin and not worry to much about linages and other crap
>>749318
I remember it was fight quest or human weapon. They went to okinawa and did goju with morio higaonna. They ended up having to go back to tokyo and fighting some kyokushin guys because the okinawans refused to fight.
>>749318
A pearl is still worth more than a slab of bronze.
>>749320
Did you make that up yourself? Because it isn't necessarily true.
>>746126
I got one for you. Its called do a real martial art like boxing/muay thai+bjj/judo/wrestling not some kumg fu crap
>>749333
>real martial art
>suggests 2 arts
>>749334
Shut up nerd i train mma cause thats what works ufc has proven it.
There literally has not been 1 ufc fighter that did your fancy karate kung fu stuff
Only mma works and thats a FACT and you cant argue with FACTS
>>749338
The point is that you told him to pick up a real martial art, so one martial art, and then you posted that meme clearly not allowing the option of choosing just one art, but at least TWO MOTHER FUCKING martial arts!
Shut the fuck up, you stupid ass mother fucker!
I train Traditional Wing Chun, and that IS MMA, fucker!
My people were training MMA before you even left your daddy's ballsack, bitch-boy!
You don't know shit about MMA, and it just shows how stupid you are by trying to imply to ME that MMA doesn't work!
Wing Chun IS the very BEST martial art in the history of man kind, and it's FUCKING MMA!
>>749341
gayyyyyyyyyyy
>>749342
no you're gay
>>749290
You're a moron
>>749290
>>749290
>to beat as much \boxing+bjj/ guys so i can shut their arrogant mouths and prove that karate and kung fu can be very effective
1.
The whole point of this "Boxing/MuayThai/Kyokushin + Wrestling/Judo/BJJ" meme is:
-they are availible (many places teach them)
-they are reliable (it's hard to find a McDojo due to standardisation and competitions)
-they practice full contact sparring early on
Nobody who understood this, wood claim that Kung Fu, Krav Maga or whatever are useless, if they do full contact sparring and have qualified instuctors, i.e. ths "Dr. Gobling" does train Kung Fu or something, but they do full contact sparring.
But since it's hard for beginners to judge if the coaches are qualified, it's good to take a "solid" martial art as a starting point.
2.
There are already guys who did this, Lyoto Machida Shotokan used Shotokan Karate and many people used Kyokushin (Bas Rutten, Georges St-Pierre, Francisco Filho), nto talking about K-1 where a lot of amazing fighters have a Kyokushin background.
As for Kung Fu, they are kinda special because it's a lot about weapons (so it would be more accurate to compare them with martial arts like HEMA, not necessarily MMA). Nevertheless SanShou is a respected martial art at /asp/.
3.
This is a stupid Imageboard, full of trolls and guys who don't even train. People out there in the gyms are dieffernt than what the Internet shows you.
>>749338
your a fucking moron
>>749376
Yes, i know and i totally agree with you, it's just that it fucking pisses me off reading all that pile of ratshit posted by a legion of neckbeards, and it makes me want to prove them wrong.
>>749604
just sounds like the problem lies with you and not this pile of neckbeards
Besides being able to say "I use Karate in MMA", wouldn't it be better to just learn Kickboxing with roots in Karate in a Kickboxing gym instead of Karate in a dojo, even Kyokushin Karate?
>>749677
Yes, absolutely
>>749244
> You get better at doing a thing by never doing it.
Where do you people hide, that you still believe this?
OP, if you can't find Kyo, find something else that allows you to spar/compete.
>>749755
You should probably add "doesn't compete is pyjama tag"
>>749604
By searching, and failing, to find any karate/kung fu that will actually let you fight, you're actually proving them right.
Karate and Kung Fu are looked down upon by other arts because it's highly unlikely you will get any real time fighting experience/training from them. You will be guaranteed to get this training in any Judo/BJJ/Wrestling/Sambo/Boxing/Muay Thai/MMA gym, but to find it in Kung Fu requires a bloody continental quest.
Stop being butthurt, accept reality, and act accordingly.
>>749757
True, but even pyjama tag is better than endless form faggotry. At least it's a way of soft balling people into the harder sparring sports.
>>749677
some kyokushin dojos will train you for kickboxing since there is more kickboxing competitions than knockdown karate tournaments in the states.
>>749755
competition fighting is objectively not combat
you want to learn how to beat someone up, keep doing what you're doing
you want to learn how to kill a man, come see me
>>749677
>wouldn't it be better to just learn Kickboxing with roots in Karate
All Muay Thai prectitioners (yes, also Buakaw) cross train in boxing to get good at striking and no one critisizes it.
But everybody mocks Kyokushin because you need to crosstrain in boxing before you can enter a kickboxing competition.
Just saying.
>>749278
Hey /asp/, guest from /sci/.
Pretty much what this guy said. Don't mean to sound like a typical Internet Tough Guy, but I did Kyokushin for ~5 years, until an injury + shit at work put a stop to that. Let me tell you something, Kyokushin fighters do not fuck around, their punches have an alarming stopping power and it's simply down to their training regiment.
By my third real competition against other competitive fighters, I felt basically unbreakable to most things an ordinary person could throw at me. Regular punches and kicks just bounced off my solar plexus, ribs, stomach and thighs not leaving any real impact. The reason for this is that training was absolutely brutal, focusing almost half the time on stamina and body hardening. The reason for *that* is because the other half was focused on building really good technique for making other karate practitioners go down - guys like us, who spend half their time getting pummeled by their teammates' fists and kicks to build stamina.
After a few weeks you stop going back home black and blue, you stop getting bruises or sprained ankles or tight muscles, and you become really efficient at taking down people who don't seem upset that you just heel-kicked them in the liver. It's a damn tough sport and I wish I could come back to it some day.
>>749863
Competition fighting is objectively closer to combat than non-compliant drilling and endless forms are.
>you want to learn how to kill a man, come see me
Oh yeah, how many men have you killed? Were these in deadly street encounters, or in your frequent bloodsport death tournaments?
None, right? Yeah, it's none.
You get better at fighting people by fighting people. The fact that you can't believe this shows that you're delusional.
How about this. Go to a combat sport gym, find a game competitor, tell him youre a goju-ryu death machine who has never sparred, and have a match. I guarantee you'll be surprised.
>>749891
>who has never sparred
there goes that nonsense again. my sparring is more realistic than your competitions
you have lost sight of the second part of the style, the ju. where else do we see the word ju in martial arts? see the problem here?
attack and destroy, that's the motto. break through with hard striking, drop someone with soft techniques, stomp the shit out of them while they are on the ground, and if you are still holding the limb you grabbed for your takedown, snap it off and take it home with you.
>>749893
This is what delusional dancers actually believe
>>749894
if someone wanted to play knockdown karate with me the only problem I would have is avoiding being disqualified for using illegal techniques out of reflex. It's the same reason I have trouble boxing seriously because I keep having to remind myself not to kick someone.
Being used to the format is the only chance a kyo guy would have in beating me, I guarantee every aspect of my striking and footwork is superior and more complete, and even if it isn't I have a whole library of throws and submissions they have never seen that I can drop on them
>>749895
You don't have any reflexes because you don't practice what you claim to practice. What you practice is some combination of pulling your punches , missing and hitting a different target, and going in slow motion. You have never punched someone in the throat or gouged someone's eyes in your life.
The knockdown fighter on the other hand will see you as tomato can #397 and crush you accordingly.
>>749895
You are literally as much of a chuuni as this guy
>>749899
fite me fagit
I send people to the hospital a few times a year just in training. This past year so far I am responsible for a broken nose, broken foot, torn knee, hernia from a gut punch, and more blood than I care to keep track of
dont like training this way? too fucking bad, it's your fault for getting hit. just quit if its too much for you.
>>749893
How? How is your sparring more realistic than hard competition sparring? Do you and your training partners regularly cripple each other? Do you drop and stomp the shit out of resisting opponents often? How many limbs have you snapped off and taken home with you? Be specific.
How many times have you taken a hit and had to shake it off, to continue the match? How many times have you dealt with the adrenaline dump of fighting? How many times have you out-maneuvered and defeated a non-compliant opponent?
None, You have never done any of this. Have you?
I spent a lot of time learning 2deadly4spar shit before I tried out Judo. Guess how much I 'accidentally' pulled out in my first few classes? Guess how many training partners I reflexively maimed with my superior combat skills?
None. I got thrown around like a pool toy and strangled.
Just try sparring some 'sport' fighters. You'll see.
>>749904
Where's your club?
>>749911
basically you are asking me if I do the things I do on a daily basis
I bet you have never been strangled full force with someone hands around your throat, had your hair literally pulled out of your head in a hand full, or kicked in the dick full force intentionally from someone, or jabbed in the eyes or had your ears clapped on purpose?
you might be able to compete but you don't know about fighting
>>749915
I've been in more gunfights than I can count on two hands, and I ate a ton of shrapnel on my last tour, bud. I've also been in and around the kind of fights that occur in the life of an infantry goon. I know about fighting.
I also know that fighting skills need to be trained on a consistent basis, getting as close to reality as possible without permanently crippling those training. The only place that occurs in martial arts is in combat sports that spar and compete.
So yeah, I am asking what you do on a daily basis. How do you train that makes you too deadly to step into a competitive match? What things do you do in training that are too dangerous to do in a sparring match? Not the things you pretend to do, the ones you actually carry out? Be specific, please.
>>749915
>I bet you have never been strangled full force with someone hands around your throat
BJJ practitioner here
no i heavent because that is literally the shittiest and most impractical choke you can attempt on someone
now stop falling for this stupid bait people
>>749915
Neither have you. Unless you'd like to post us a photo of the scars on your scalp and your fucked up eyes. Who's reading this thread for you since you spar with eye gouges all the time?
>>749921
It's not bait. I can take you down to the local strip mall and introduce you to a dozen people who believe exactly what this nincompoop is saying.
>>749927
>Who's reading this thread for you since you spar with eye gouges all the time?
my eyes are for the most part fine, right is good, the left can make out shapes up to around 100 yards which is more than enough to fight with
>>749863
>you want to learn how to kill a man, come see me
Lol.
No one that has ever actually killed someone would say something so completely gay.
>>749893
Too bad 99% of Goju is ethnic dancing. The other 1% is ethnic dancing with what white people think are exotic Asian weapons like "nunchuks".
>>749917
This. So much fucking this.
Thank you fellow Army vet anon.
>>749994
Gee, then why did Mas Oyama waste so much time on it? I suppose he just wanted to waste some time before starting his own karate style
>>749999
Why did Henry Ford waste so much of his youth riding horses if cars are so great?
>>749999
>Gee, then why did Mas Oyama waste so much time on it?
Because he didn't know better.
>I suppose he just wanted to waste some time before starting his own karate style
Or he figured out that not actually learning how to fight is pretty stupid if you're going to act like you can fight.
>>750005
Or maybethere was some value to the material. That isnt to say that the Goju of today is the same as what he did, as far as I know he did far more conditioning than the average suburban karateka.
And no, I am not saying goju ryu is better than kyokushin.
>>750007
Why are you using the Internet instead of just thinkposting to the quantum ansible? It hasn't been invented yet? No excuse.
>>750009
Holy shit I kekked breddy gud.
>>749994
srsly fite me
>>750005
>actually learning how to fight is pretty stupid if you're going to act like you can fight.
You are completely ignoring that Oyama knew Boxing, Judo and Karate before inventing his own Karate style. He was definately a capable fighter:
>in 1947, Mas Oyama won the karate section of the first Japanese National Martial Arts Championships after WWII
>In 1952, he travelled the United States for a year, demonstrating his karate live and on national televison. During subsequent years, he took on all challengers, resulting in fights with 270 different people. The vast majority of these were defeated with one punch! A fight never lasted more than three minutes, and most rarely lasted more than a few seconds. His fighting principle was simple — if he got through to you, that was it.
>http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/masoyama.htm
>>750096
>>In 1952, he travelled the United States for a year, demonstrating his karate live and on national televison. During subsequent years, he took on all challengers, resulting in fights with 270 different people. The vast majority of these were defeated with one punch! A fight never lasted more than three minutes, and most rarely lasted more than a few seconds. His fighting principle was simple — if he got through to you, that was it.
name 1 of these people
>>749917
>I ate a ton of shrapnel on my last tour
There's your fucking problem. Learn about proper diet on /fit/
>>750096
>You are completely ignoring that Oyama knew Boxing, Judo and Karate before inventing his own Karate style. He was definately a capable fighter:
No, I'm not.
I'm saying he realized that there was a better way to train, like actually fighting.
Thus Kyokushin instead of just teaching Goju.
>>750225
or consider this,
he just felt like starting his own school
kyokushin doesn't have anything proprietary about it. Especially that emphasis on physical conditioning you guys always brag about. letting people beat on you, not flinching, enduring pain, these are the foundation of goju training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ld_o5JC70
at 54 minutes you can see a small example
you're bashing something you have never done
>>750205
Hah! Nice. Not even mad.
>>750235
Not going to bash the body hardening and exercise techniques. I can see how fitness and 'toughness' training can definitely help someone in a fight. But unless that stuff is backed up with some real time sparring, it's just going to make you a tougher spaz.
>>750246
>But unless that stuff is backed up with some real time sparring, it's just going to make you a tougher spaz.
its just strange to assume there is no sparring going on. I'll give you a run down of a typical class
7-10
first 45 minutes or so are spent exercising, not warming up, exercising hard to build as much fatigue as possible
Then comes technique practice, striking, grappling, and take downs
then conditioning which as you would guess is all about standing still an letting people punch and kick you, throw a med ball at your gut, smack you around a bit.
More exercise, generally super setting push ups an burpees, again for fatigue purposes
The last hour is kumite, protective gear is allowed but discouraged
you will fight until you are told you may stop, sometimes someone will be told to cheap shot you from behind while you are fighting, there will be multiple rounds against fresh opponents.
I once saw someone fail a black belt exam because he threw up during kumite. Too bad, you get one chance a year, try again next november.
>>750235
>kyokushin doesn't have anything proprietary about it. Especially that emphasis on physical conditioning you guys always brag about. letting people beat on you, not flinching, enduring pain, these are the foundation of goju training
No.
The reason why Kyokushin and it's offshoots Ashihara and Enshin are lauded isn't because of body conditioning, but because they actually fight and are proven in professional striking and MMA promotions.
>>750252
>first 45 minutes or so are spent exercising, not warming up, exercising hard to build as much fatigue as possible
This is dumb. Not because conditioning is dumb, but a straight up conditioning workout should be separate or after your technical training.
And you should be putting in enough volume and intensity in your technical workouts actually learning that you should be okay having a separate conditioning workout at another time or following it.
>Then comes technique practice, striking, grappling, and take downs
Again, you have this backwards.
>then conditioning which as you would guess is all about standing still an letting people punch and kick you, throw a med ball at your gut, smack you around a bit.
Which isn't why Kyokushin, and other systems and programs that actually produce fighters, is liked.
>More exercise, generally super setting push ups an burpees, again for fatigue purposes
Which is stupid.
>The last hour is kumite, protective gear is allowed but discouraged
There are two reasons this is stupid.
1. You shouldn't be absolutely fucking exhausted when you're trying to get down range, timing, rhythm, footwork, and defense.
2. You can get your conditioning WHILE sparring and rolling.
It's much better to spend three hours sparring and be tired at the end than spend 2 hours trying to make people puke and then expecting them to actually get anything out of sparring.
There is more than enough room for gut check workouts, but this being your overall programming is just bad.
>>750289
Thinking about this more:
This really sounds like the shit that would happen at a strip mall Krotty dojo because there are too many people to actually effectively train.
So instead of spending time actually teaching people how to fight you're spending more than half your time just exercising with no real purpose.
>>750289
it isn't stupid at all. are you expecting to not get tired during your fight? and you know what happens at the first sign of fatigue? you get sloppy, your techniques falls apart, you slow down and open up
that is why we train under fatigue. I know I can fight when I'm fresh, an having stamina is a secondary thought. You need to be able to perform when your stamina is depleted. My technique will be as sharp in the last round as it will be in the first because that's where I train it.
Your efforts to wear me down will be unsuccessful, as you tire I will still be on point.
>>750299
>it isn't stupid at all. are you expecting to not get tired during your fight?
Actually I never have. Because I have good programming so I'm doing actual effective conditioning and actual effective technical training.
>and you know what happens at the first sign of fatigue? you get sloppy, your techniques falls apart, you slow down and open up
Which isn't conducive to actually taking anything away from sparring.
>that is why we train under fatigue.
No, you are training under fatigue because you have shitty programming. And your "sensei" is hiding that shitty programming with meaningless exercise.
>I know I can fight when I'm fresh,
Lol sure you do.
>an having stamina is a secondary thought. You need to be able to perform when your stamina is depleted.
Yes. Which is why you need to have actual effective technical training time, and good programming.
>My technique will be as sharp in the last round as it will be in the first because that's where I train it.
Lol no. Your "technique" will be as shitty and sloppy in the first round as the last because you aren't actually getting the chance to effectively train your range, timing, defense, footwork etc.
>Your efforts to wear me down will be unsuccessful, as you tire I will still be on point.
Sure thing Dojo Hero.
>>750305
>your "sensei"
shihan actually, certified and proven
but more importantly, you can go ahead and disregard me all you want but it doesn't change anything. If I train tired my skills aren't going to decrease because I have more energy.
I don't see why you can't wrap your head around that idea of developing good technique while fatigued. Developing a technique while fatigued carries over to when you are fresh
developing a technique while fresh does NOT carry over to when you are fatigued
>>750316
>I don't see why you can't wrap your head around that idea of developing good technique while fatigued. Developing a technique while fatigued carries over to when you are fresh
Not when you are doing it wrong in the first place.
There is a time and place for gut check workouts. That's not every single day.
>developing a technique while fresh does NOT carry over to when you are fatigued
You fall to your lowest level of training. It just so happens that your setting your lowest level low by using bad programming. Congratulations.
>>750328
you don't get it. I'm not mad at you for it, but its beyond your understanding and that's ok
I don't just train my karate, but I work in an MMA gym for a living. part of my hiring process was getting checked out by the managers to prove I know what I'm talking about, so I really don't need your justification.
I operate at a high level of training, and some day you will too if you stick with it
>>750333
A stupid person could think that a smarter stupid person is a genius.
>>750337
and a stupid person could think a smarter person is insane because they can't understand
>>750333
Lol so now you work in an MMA gym.
Sure thing dudeo.
Too bad I've actually worked with pro and amateur fighters (and actually trained and fought myself) and everything you're saying is just plain wrong.
>>750351
>now you work in an MMA gym
not just now, I have for a while. I teach 8 group classes a week, and do privates the rest of the time.
but the problem here with you is you are unenlightened, you're a hobbyist where as I am a professional, and you don't have any respect for people doing something other than the exact same thing you are doing.
>>750297
This is just time-wasting from instructors who don't know how to teach and don't have a plan to fill the class.
"Okay faggots! Do a thousand pushups! Then, um, run fifteen laps around the dojo! I'll be in my office. Knock before you come in or you'll get an eyeful of DNA."
>>750299
The Seidokaikan Hombu turns out more fighters than you'll ever meet and we never did anything like this.
>>750316
We also never had somebody so full of himself he called himself a shihan. You sure you don't do Bujinkan?
>>750357
>don't have a plan to fill the class
we aren't filling up a 1 hour class with exercise, we are running 3+ hour classes with exercises included
>so full of himself he called himself a shihan
he doesn't call himself that, it's a given title that he earned, an when you earn your red belt people might call you that too
>>750357
Seido, would you be so kind as to post a short auto-biography about yourself for newfriends who don't know who you are?
>>750364
he's a nobody I would gladly fight under any rules of his choosing
>>750356
OK, I'll bite. What MMA fighters have you produced?
>>750356
>but the problem here with you is you are unenlightened, you're a hobbyist where as I am a professional, and you don't have any respect for people doing something other than the exact same thing you are doing.
Lol
Sure thing friend.
I've trained and competed full time in different combat sports, from wrestling to MMA.
And I've gotten any training that wasn't specifically wrestling from pro fighters.
But no, you're right.
The best thing is to constantly exhaust yourself before you get to technical training, every workout should be a gut check workout. Programming is for chumps.
>not just now, I have for a while.
Also lol because the entire thread you've been talking about how your Goju krotty is the ultimate because you don't train for competition, you train "real fighting".
>>750375
you seem to be confused, my own training is different from the gym I work at.
I am not afraid to fight anyone in any format, rules are not, my desire or lack there of to take part in your competition is unimportant. I have no interest in winning a belt in someones fighting league, I already know I'm the baddest man in the room when I step out.
The whole idea of becoming champion to me seems to be bred from insecurity in ones own skills. I know I'll win, therefore I don't need to prove it to myself
>>750364
I'll give you the laundry list. Some of these overlap so don't try to just add them up. They all fit into a twenty year period.
Around 14 years Isshinryu, 2nd dan. George Dillman-affiliated. Bullshit.
About two years ITF-style Taekwondo. Bullshit.
Around 2 years Ed Parker-style Kenpo. Bullshit.
A little under a year of judo and aikido. Not for me.
About a year of Shotokan. Bullshit.
A year and a half of capoeira. A++, would play again, even if bullshit.
Two years of Wushu. Fun, bullshit, nobody imagined he was a badass though.
I've taken classes in sambo, kendo, shinkendo, silat, and other shit that isn't coming to mind at the moment. No rank in any of those, but I got a feel for them.
Four years of Seidokaikan at the hombu in Osaka. Look it up on wikipedia. Switch the language to Japanese. That photo is the dojo. Training floor is up top, weight room and bathrooms are on the first floor. K-1 ring is in the basement. It's the only worthwhile training I've received for any useful length of time.
I've done everything wrong for a long-ass time and completely ruined any talent I might have ever had with bullshit training. I'm lanky and long-legged and get utterly fucked by any kind of grappler. I'm flexible, but I have a lot of old injuries slowing me down. I can also take a lot of hits and keep moving forward, and at this point adrenaline dumps aren't a problem. I know what I know, and it isn't much. I've been around this motherfucker a while though.
I'm currently living in Asheville, North Carolina with no plans to return to Japan any time soon, and wonder where >>750369 lives. He's right I'm nobody though.
>>750388
LOL
McDojo the post.
You win.
>>750159
The point is not if he really fought 250 people, the point is that he was a capable fighter, recognised by many badass fighters (i.e. Kimura or countless knockdown karateka).
If you really are interested in the specific details:
>http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html
>>750225
I'm not an expert on Sosai Oyama's biography, but historically many extraordinary fighters created their own styles. That doens't necessarily mean their style was better than the one they learned, it was just their specific idea about how a good style should look like, this and "political issues". That's also why there are so many Kyokushin offshoots.
>>750235
I agree with you, Karateka shouldn't look down at each other. In Kyokushin every Dojo trains differnt (Kata/Kumite? How hard? Punches to the head? Grappling basics?) and I think it's the same for every Karate style out there. I wouldn't be surprised to find a Shotokan Dojo out there that trains full contact.
>>750284
> isn't because of body conditioning
I don't know, without body conditioning Kyokushin would look quite differnt. It's definately one of the foundations for actual fighting (within our style).
>>750289
>1. You shouldn't be absolutely fucking exhausted when you're trying to get down range, timing, rhythm, footwork, and defense.
But in our Dojo it's pretty similar, people are maybe at 40% of their power before we start sparring. That helps a lot to form the "Osu"-spirit: go to your limits, get out of your comfort zone THEN look how much you can still keep going. It's better to be able to throw powerful kicks htat are not 100% accurate when you are almost done, then to throw technically beautiful kicks when you just came out of bed..
It also is great for building up stamina.
Of course we also have a hard workout at the end of the class to zap the last ressources.
>You can get your conditioning WHILE sparring and rolling.
Conditioning is differnt than eating kicks/punches in sparring.
>>750388
This is amazing.
>>750516
finally someone here goes to a real karate school and can back up what I've been saying
>>750393
what a bunch of self masturbatory bullshit.
If the way you act and talk is any measure Yous a bitch and you'll always be a bitch with a glass ego.
>>750567
He said it was bullshit on like every line.
He also said he sucked. How did you get ego from that?
>>750516
>But in our Dojo it's pretty similar, people are maybe at 40% of their power before we start sparring. That helps a lot to form the "Osu"-spirit: go to your limits, get out of your comfort zone THEN look how much you can still keep going. It's better to be able to throw powerful kicks htat are not 100% accurate when you are almost done, then to throw technically beautiful kicks when you just came out of bed..
So how many successful fighters has your place produced?
And how often are you doing gut check workouts?
Because if the answer is "every workout", congratulations, you have shitty programming.
Of course I assume you're probably training 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time. I'm coming from a background of training 5-6 days a week 3-5 hours a day, not counting running and lifting on my own.
>It also is great for building up stamina.
>Of course we also have a hard workout at the end of the class to zap the last ressources.
>>You can get your conditioning WHILE sparring and rolling.
>Conditioning is differnt than eating kicks/punches in sparring.
By conditioning I'm talking about cardio vascular conditioning, not body conditioning.
>>750578
if you're bad at something isnt it a little out of line to call it bullshit?
>>750586
you dont know about intensive daily training, you aren't putting the work in.
I am not doing "workouts", I am living a lifestyle where my day is filled with training
>>750673
>you dont know about intensive daily training, you aren't putting the work in.
Sure thing.
>I am not doing "workouts", I am living a lifestyle where my day is filled with training
Lol going to your local dojo 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time is not a "lifestyle".
>>750674
you presume too much
>>750674
Today I got up at 10, stretched out a bit, had a snack, and went in at 12, did some pad work and grappling until 3:30.
Now I'm home having lunch, and I'm about to start my flexibility exercises which will take about 40 minutes and then I'm going to head to the gym to do some lifting and will hit the bag for a while.
I'm not even training today, this is what I do on my day off from training
>>750682
Sure thing.
>>750673
Yeah, you're basically an Olympian. Of gojuryu, if the thread's even about that anymore, right? Just spending all day every day getting your limbs broken, ears clapped, eyes gouged out, hair pulled out, dick kicked in, and on your off days you go HAM on weights, cardio, and calisthenics.
You're a killer, and have a wall of newspaper clippings in your dojo to prove it. We're just jealous. Disregard us.
>>750712
martial arts are about self improvement through suffering. If you are having fun while training you arent training hard enough
>>750722
Martial arts are about winning fights.
Self-improvement is new age horseshit.
>>750744
interesting, you expect to defeat others when you can't even defeat your own limitations
>>750744
>Self-improvement is new age horseshit.
I wasn't aware the new age movement was present in 18th century Japan
>>750744
>we shouldn't strive to better ourselves; we should just stay shit
>>750673
Translation: I don't have a job
>>750763
They let you play karate in that fedora or do you have to leave it in your mom's car?
>>750770
Not him, actually the one that's been arguing with him this whole time:
I worked full time at the post office and still managed to train 5+ days a week for 3-5 hours a day, not including my own conditioning and lifting.
It's entirely possible to work full time and still train.
It's just he's not actually doing, he's just making shit up. It's obvious because he doesn't understand that what he's saying is shit tier programming for any fighter and is the epitome of strip mall Krotty "let's make up a bunch of shit because we have time to fill and don't know how to train anyone" crossfit thinking.
>>750780
you keep going back to this idea of contests where your goal is to score points and not really hurt anyone.
if you give me a contest with no rounds or time limit, bare knuckle, and no illegal strikes or submissions I will happily play with you. I even promise not to gouge anybody in the eyes.
but I am not going to neuter myself for the sake of sport
>>750785
The goal of kyokushin is to knock the other guy down so hard he can't get back up. Who told you nobody gets hurt?
>>750789
my sifu. and he has a black belt in kyokushin and 2 other karates.
>>750789
but it is ruined by its hand technique rule
>>750791
And muay thai is ruined with its grappling technique rules
and wrestling is ruined with its striking technique rules
They're all the fucking same, there are rules in place. but the moves and techniques they do are all good. Deal with it
>>750792
>the moves and techniques they do are all good
I never said they weren't, I respect the skills everyone brings. I am saying the competition is unappealing
there is in fact nothing wrong with grappling only contests or striking only contests, but when you omit important techniques the contest to me seems pointless. who cares how many body shots someone can take while leaving their head all but exposed?
Allow head hunting and you have not only change the game, but given the practitioners a much more realistic look into what a fight is actually like
>>750785
>you keep going back to this idea of contests where your goal is to score points and not really hurt anyone.
Lol.
You're still a retard who can't even make up shit that sounds right on the internet.
>>750785
We're all bleeding after you cut us with that edge, buddy. I've met a hundred guys who talk like you, and they are all universally fuckheads and fantasists. Your name isn't Phil Elmore by any chance is it?
>>750801
It's been said here before, but there is no lack of venues for people who want to put on gloves and punch each other in the head. Go do any variant of kickboxing or boxing you like. Kyokushin took away the head punching so they didn't have the use gloves. I for one am glad that there's one group of people doing that.
There's no one answer to "what a fight is really like." Training is an abstraction, and compromises are made for the sake of staying relatively uninjured long enough to get good at something, because what you can't do is what you keep claiming that you're doing, which is just full on fight like you're locked in a cell with three lifers on PCP. You can do it once or twice maybe, but that can't be your training method because you're going to be crippled or dead long before you get in enough ring hours to accumulate any skill.
>>750388
So you're a professional at...what, exactly? Kill-or-be-killed fighting? Who have you killed? Do you go out and fight crime? Are you Dexter? No? Then how do we or you know you're any good? You haven't gotten killed yet? Neither has anyone else on this board. I guess we're all already masters. My preferred method of self defense is to be a white collar white guy who lives in low crime areas in first world countries and keeps his door locked at night anyway. It's super effective.
>>750722
>>750765
This has been talked to death on this board and elsewhere already. The "art" part of "martial arts" was never intended to have all the baggage hung on it that 20th century Westerners with a penchant for Orientalism have attached to it. Martial arts are accumulated methods of engaging in violence. Any character development you might experience while doing them is incidental.
>>750818
>Any character development you might experience while doing them is incidental.
this is observably incorrect. The reason different styles of karate exist (of which there are only 4 officially recognized and kyokushin is not one of them) is because of the philosophy attached.
Chojun Miyagi wrote "the ultimate aim of karate-do was to build character, conquer human misery, and find spiritual freedom"
I will listen to the man who created karate when it comes to what karate is all about
>>750823
Oh for fuck's sake. You're going to declare kyokushin to not be karate?
>>750801
>head hunting
>much more realistic look into what a fight is actually like
It's a much more realistic look into what two people who don't know how to fight do when they try to hurt each other.
It's just haymakers aimed at the head until someone drops.
It's just shitty, unskilled fighting.
>>750827
nah, it is. Any unarmed combat is technically karate. But for the sake of discussing intent and what it stands for, no it doesn't count when you talk about the origins of karate philosophy
>>750829
>Any unarmed combat is technically karate.
So I can take the jab and cross, front snap kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, uchi mata, and rear naked choke, put it into my own art, and then teach it as "Karate"?
>>750830
technically yes, karate literally means empty handed. Any non-weapon system of fighting can be considered karate if you want to get literal.
>>750848
>if you want to get literal.
Do people actually go literal, though? Are there people selling stuff like that as "Karate"?
>>750818
>This has been talked to death on this board and elsewhere already.
Yes, this has been talked to death, that hardly means its been settled to my satisfaction. I will agree with you about 20th century westerners. But I can find quotes of the founders of modern systems like karate and kendo, as well as quotes from the edo period and even before talking about character development and how its central to what they were doing. That is not to say they didn't care about the "martial" aspect, but there was a cultural context were the idea of a "path" was widely related to a number of disciplines, marital arts included, were one could use steadfast devotion to an art as a means of enlightenment, or in later years self development.
Now we can debate how effective punching and throwing people is for character development, but that's another conversation
>>750849
probably. Karate is marketable, everybody knows what it is. It's like brazilian jiujitsu using the word jujitsu, I don't know what the portuguese word for wrestling is but they could have used that.
>>750855
You'll sadly find a lot of tkd classes marketed as karate or "Korean karate."
>>750850
It's as effective as football or golf or any other activity that takes practice and dedication to get good. No more so though.
>>750855
Except it was based on, what was at the time known as, Kano jujutsu.
>>750859
I will disagree with this on the basis that martial arts training is the only thing I can think of where diligently inflicting self harm is part of the practice. I don't mean in the sense that you should work through the pain, but more so the pain being the whole point.
>>750862
I can tell you've never been a linebacker.
>>750862
You've clearly never played rugby
>>750862
Self harming is a symptom of mental illness, not a means of character development. Pushing through discomfort is a type of strength, but hurting yourself for its own sake is idiocy.
>>750867
>Pushing through discomfort is a type of strength
Pushing through discomfort requires a type of strength.
>>750869
Those are dumb things to do in martial arts training too. What is the carryover to fighting from that? Getting hit hard in sparring is enough for you to learn to take a hit.
>>750870
not really, you need to actively deaden your nerves so its not a matter of taking the hit, its that you barely even feel the hit after a while. even in MMA its pretty standard practice to body condition like that, like doing sit ups while someone stands over you dropping a med ball on your belly.
>>750872
>this is what dancers actually believe
>>750872
>doing sit ups while someone stands over you dropping a med ball on your belly.
Also a dumb practice. The nerve damage thing is a myth anyway. You're just getting used to it. The sensitivity comes right back if you stop doing it for a while.
Just spar hard on a regular basis and you'll learn to keep fighting after getting hit. Or I guess stand there while somebody hits you with a stick and you'll learn to pretend you're in boot camp or whatever.
Can you at least accept that it's not going to have the value of getting hit in sparring because you're in a completely different headspace? Standing there with your instructor about to hit you and you know it's coming and you know that all you're expected to do is take it has little similarity to being in the middle of a match, taking a hit you didn't see coming, and having to continue to put together a coherent offense and defense afterward.
>>750874
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvX45yKPobk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVe3zYJIges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQBBSLtReNk
>>750880
Meh.
Kyokushin guys waste time on kata too and you're not going to convince many of us that that has value.
Fighters often engage in sub-optimal training methods and still achieve success. That's not groundbreaking news. Put two guys in a ring and one will win. It doesn't mean either was training perfectly.
>>750883
>you're not going to convince many of us that that has value.
>what is muscle memory
>>750883
I think kata is really misunderstood by a lot of people and that has a lot to do with shitty schools and dance contests
boxing for example has kata, kata is a blanket term for technique practice. So while someone learning boxing will learn a combination, and practice that combination in front of a mirror to watch their technique, then work it on the pads with someone, while a boxer will consider shadow boxing and pad work to be two different things they are both considered kata.
>>750862
>I will disagree with this on the basis that martial arts training is the only thing I can think of where diligently inflicting self harm is part of the practice.
Someone has never played organized foot ball (not commie soccer).
>>750891
>kata is a blanket term for technique practice.
Nah homie, that's Kihon.
Kata is specifically a preset pattern that goes way beyond a combination.
>>750897
>Nah homie, that's Kihon
Not him, but twhile I would agree there are certain things that distinguish kata from being merely a set pattern, they are untimely a type of pattern practice, something found in most athletic activities.
I'm not the most qualified to opine on karate kata in particular, but most kata tend to be alot of kihon chained together in a way someone decided made sense. The things that make it a kata, as opposed to a drill are added on top of that
>>750897
which is meant to program movement, then you do it against someone that is complying with you to get used to making contact, then you do it against someone who is resisting.
when someone learns kata and just continues to practice kata by themselves in an open room they aren't doing it correctly.
the purpose of kata has never been something you emulate exactly in a fight. the idea is to learn transitions between techniques so you can apply them as a reflexively where applicable.
>>750818
For the most part you're not wrong, but saying that any building character stuff is just a side effect seems retarded.
>>750586
>So how many successful fighters has your place produced?
I don't know why this matters, this is the internet and I could tell you what I want. But since you asked, we are having national competitors for Kickboxing and people going to the Kyokushin World Tournament this year. Not me, of course, I still have a long way to go..
-_-"
Mind that I'm not saying that the training methods I described are necessarily the best or the only ones which could work. But for some people they do work. So maybe different paths may lead to the same goal?
>And how often are you doing gut check workouts?
What are "gut check workouts"?
>Of course I assume you're probably training 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time. I'm coming from a background of training 5-6 days a week 3-5 hours a day, not counting running and lifting on my own.
I see what you are getting at, but as I said before, maybe there are differnt ways to do it.
I train in Kyokushin 2 times a week, but most guys (including me) cross train in some style.
>cardio vascular conditioning
For me that simply means to work hard the whole session.
>>750965
>-_-"
>>750903
Zero aliveness, zero timing. You aren't responding to anything. Kata are worthless.
If people fought and it looked anything like the kata you'd have a point but karate guys spar with stances, techniques, and footwork that dont resemble kata at all.
>>750904
I think you build character from joining groups of people who share your goals and attempting to do things that take discipline. Martial arts do those things for you, but there's nothing special about training in martial arts when it comes to making you a better person.
You'd end up experiencing the same personal growth joining a soccer team or going for eagle scout or being really active in your church. Martial arts gets you up and out of the house, gets you moving, helps you meet people, and inspires you to sacrifice time you would have spent watching tv and instead spend it pursuing a goal. So would joining a band.
What I don't believe, and I really don't care what Miyagi or Ueshiba said their intent was, is that having some pasty twat in pajamas standing in front of you spouting gibberish about indomitable spirit or whatever adds additional benefit. The problem is the schools that really emphasize the "spiritual" stuff usually skimp on the hard work and the important character-building experience of losing.
In fact, I think martial arts training may be worse for your character. Look at the guy a few of us have been arguing with in this thread. Do you think he's pleasant to be around with his head full of edgy fantasies about how deadly he is? Wouldn't you rather have a beer with one of us old jocks? We'll tell you some funny stories about people we used to play krotty with. Isn't that better than "If you want to learn how to kill a man, come find me?"
>>751048
I'd rather not hang out with delusional pyjama dancers OR jocks like you with inflated egos. I'd gladly chill with both a pyjama dancer who's not retarded and does it for fun and/or understands it's flaws, and an actually likable jock who won't spend the evening jerking his worth off and is a bro.
>>751053
I don't understand this ego thing you're projecting onto me. I share my experience doing a lot of ridiculous things and never talk about whose ass I would kick, and I'm the one with an inflated glass ego?
>>750965
>What are "gut check workouts"?
Where you are going balls to the wall 100% and doing conditioning (again not body conditioning) exercises interspersed with sparring, mitt work, bag work etc.
>I train in Kyokushin 2 times a week, but most guys (including me) cross train in some style.
Which is what, another day a week an hour a workout?
That's my point. When you aren't getting a large volume of training you don't realize that the programming is bad, because it's usually covered up by pointless exercise.
A gut check workout has a very important place in a training program, but it's not every day. Especially when you start getting closer to a fight, tournaments etc.
>>746126
>>751012
glad to see you ignored the entire post
>>751060
there is nothing wrong with training hard every time you train, and your rest days shouldn't just be sitting around and should involve lighter version of your normal training.
>>751012
No, I didn't. Your point about kihon doesn't apply to kata since it's not done with contact or resistance. The kata breaks down and you're doing something else then. You do things reflexively that you've practiced with aliveness.
Nobody fights with anything from kata. If you claim otherwise, throw up some videos. If you're claiming that they don't spar with kata sequences but do fight with them "on the street," then you're arguing that sparring has no carryover to fighting, in which case sparring is the practice that should be discontinued, because either you fight like you spar or you fight like you do kata. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY spars like he does kata.
Kata is a weird sideline activity that has no bearing on learning to fight.
>>751084
Yeah, go to /fit/ and tell them your definition of "rest day" and see how it goes.
>>751093
the ironic thing about /fit/ is how nobody there knows what they are talking about. I will take my college education over what that board of amateurs has to say.
I've been a state licensed athletic trainer since 2008, an I Assure you active rest is the best kind of rest
>>751090
kata is about preparation to fight, this was posted earlier but is applicable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ld_o5JC70
start at 1 hour 9 minutes, the kata section is a few minutes long and they address what kata is for, as well as what it has turned into thanks to bad schools and hwaito piggus in the west.
I think you will see it is a bit different from what your idea of kata is
>>751102
>going to college to become a personal trainer
how did it feel taking 4 years of coursework to replace 3-4 months of self studying to get an ACE and NASM and then be more viable than a recent college graduate with no experience?
>>751126
I am licensed through the state, that's different from the 2 year certifications you mentioned (which I also have among others). I legally have a broader scope of practice.
I can for example write a diet for somebody, a person with an ACE certification can be prosecuted for that.
>>751134
Prosecuted for what? Bookstores would be a lot smaller if you needed a license to make up a diet.
>>751125
Question:
Kata is or is not a choreographed set of kihon that look nothing like an actual fight?
>>751084
>there is nothing wrong with training hard every time you train
There's a major difference between training hard and training stupid.
And what you're doing (if you aren't just trolling) is training stupid.
And you don't realize it because you're covering up bad programming with less volume filled with pointless exercise.
>>751102
>I've been a state licensed athletic trainer since 2008
Are you just going to keep making shit up whenever you get called on saying stupid shit?
First it was Goju is the ultimate real fighting, and you train with hard core throat punches and eye gouges.
Then it was you work at a fight gym full time and train actual fighters (even though that isn't "real fighting" according to your preceding posts).
Now you're a "certified personal trainer" which means absolutely jack fucking shit. It's like saying you have a degree in business management from Pheonix University Online.
Well how about this, I'm the clone of Mark Rippetoe and Cus D'Amato, personal trainers hate me, I'm fucking hot bitches and basically you're fucking stupid.
>>751151
you can make a diet for yourself, but not for others. If you are a PT and you do something so simple as saying "Dont eat that its not good for you" you are breaking the law by offering professional advice beyond your professional scope. Even medical doctors can't technically give you diet advice unless its something the specialize in.
>>751165
only minimally, kata isn't necessarily choreographed, it is largely freestyle for you to practice flowing on your own like shadow boxing. the choreographed portion of kata is meant to help you get used to moving before you start making it up on your own, think of it as training wheels until your technique is good. even that goes no further than what a boxer would do practicing their jab cross hook combo against an invisible opponent to get used to the motion. Karate will just have more techniques involved.
did you watch the video? the first part of kata was about conditioning and breath control, the second part was practicing the moves in the air (and was the smallest part) and the 3rd part was practicing with a person and doing combination drills. Again exactly the same as a boxing coach saying "give me a 1,2, duck, 3,3" while he stands there with his gloves up to get you used to targeting properly.
choreographed group dance is a new thing invented by bad schools to avoid actually teaching students
>>751179
So is Kata a choreographed set of Kihon done without an opponent that looks nothing like an actual fight?
>choreographed group dance is a new thing invented by bad schools to avoid actually teaching students
And Kata is done the way "new bad schools" do it.
>>751048
>and instead spend it pursuing a goal.
Martial arts is making me browse 4chan more, and making me browse 4chan when I should be studying for the next exam.
>>751182
I know you are trying super hard to use word games to win an argument but you are literally saying shadow boxing is a bad way to practice techniques, and every fighter in history will disagree with you
>>751179
I'll watch the the video when I get home, but if you're defining kata as something that is largely freestyle and not necessarily choreographed, then your definition of kata is wildly different from everyone else's here that we have nothing to discuss.
>>751182
The choreography for some karate kata is hundreds of years old.
>>751179
PTs aren't professionals. What state government issued your license?
>>751197
dissertation incoming!
>PTs aren't professionals
exactly, a personal trainer is a low level meaningless certification that looks good to fat people that have no idea about the industry. Giving exercise tips is an unregulated industry, but diet and supplements require specialized training and licensing to talk about in a professional capacity.
as a trainer you are not allowed to say "apples are good for you, eat apples" you are operating beyond your scope and thats on the same tier as a PT diagnosing you with heart disease because your blood pressure was high.
lets say I am a PT and I take someones blood pressure and I see It's 130 over 90. I can not say to someone "you have high blood pressure" because that's a diagnosis. What I can do is choose my words very carefully and say "your blood pressure is high right now, do you have a history of high blood pressure?" if the answer is yes, then its fine you found the problem, if the answer is no you say "if it gets this high frequently I would suggest having a doctor take a look" I didn't make a diagnosis, I escalated the issue with careful word choices and operated within my scope.
back to diet it's the same way. If someone wants to trim up a little, you can not say "you should eat chicken because it's low in fat and high in protein" it is not within your scope to make that assertion. What can can however say is "I like to each chicken because it's low in fat and high in protein"
I never said YOU should do something, I told you what I do and from there you can make your own decision.
also New York
>>751206
If you're not licensed you don't have a scope, so everything you do is outside your scope.
>>751211
that's right. And as regular people having casual conversation this doesn't matter, but when you are a PT there is a professional client relationship and they are listening to what you say as though you do have a scope or authority to talk about certain things.
I just want to follow up with some examples that come to mind for why it is this way
a true story is once a trainer for crunch killed a 24 year old girl because he gave her a pre-workout supplement that was high in caffeine before putting her on a treadmill. she had a heart arrhythmia and had a heart attack.
something that hasn't happened to my knowledge but potentially could is say you told someone they should eat bananas because they have a lot of vitamins. Well unfortunately for both of you, you didn't know they had kidney disease and were living with suppressed kidney function. Your suggestion to eat bananas caused them to go into a coma from potassium toxicity.
Now if this was a casual conversation at a bar or something you are not responsible, but as a PT you gave them professional advice which they paid you money for and therefore are responsible, as you operated outside of scope.
>>751179
So what you're saying is you went ahead and decided to call yakusoku kumite and a bunch of other shit "kata," therefore kata have value. Except that yakusoku kumite is also compliant crap with no aliveness.
You know that when everybody here except for the judo players says "kata" he means this shit right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00a6qsRdswU
Kata have rigid, old choreography and are done in groups or solo to weird, stilted cadences for endless repetitions. They contain silly kihon in silly stances with silly footwork. Anybody who has signed up for karate or taekwondo or kung fu classes knows what a form is. You're moving the goalposts.
To suggest that a (kick)boxer's shadowboxing is "kata" is just silly, unless you know of some boxing gym that's telling people to do fifty-punch shadowboxing sets that look exactly the same every time.
>>751218
>compliant crap
I don't know why compliance in training is a bad thing. Imagine you are a white belt at your first bjj class, your instructor shows you a triangle choke "ok, now you try to do it to me, except I'm not going to just let you so you have to fight me for it"
how silly does that sound? you would never learn anything. working with a compliant partner at first is the only way you will learn the way a technique is supposed to feel and then after you are comfortable with doing it compliantly you do it live.
and I will tell you this as well. I have been doing karate for 14 years and in that time have learned exactly 2 choreographed kata. Those two kata between them contain all of our moves and stances. once you can do those two, you know all the moves, and can then freestyle.
That video is silly, but there is a reason shotokan is relegated to point fighting. They don't do any real training as far as I can tell
>>751226
Great. Your training is so different from what 99% of us are going to encounter in karate, including in gojuryu, that you're not talking about the same thing. So when somebody says "kata are a waste of time," you can do a little "not all kata" if you want, but arguing the point has no merit because you don't have experience with it.
You know we're not talking about introducing techniques compliantly. We're talking about all compliance all day. Like yakusoku kumite always are.
Shotokan is one of if not the most popular karate style in the world. I agree with you it's not "real" training, but you can' t just handwave it away. It's exactly what people picture if you say "karate" in a conversation.
>>751238
I am not here to defend shitty training, but things should not be called shitty because people use them improperly.
I was sparring with someone that did shotokan recently, and you know what happened? he hit me right in the gut, and then you know what happened? He stepped back, put his hands up, and apologized. and I was a little confused because I guess to him it was a very hard punch, but to me I barely even felt it and didn't mind at all. And then to apologize for hitting someone during sparring is just weird to me.
I think what I'm trying to say here is hate the player not the game. We are two people using karate and he was a fast pussy that was super good at hopping around and tapping people gingerly on the tummy, and I'm a tank.
like I said earlier though, goju is a very small club with a shallow lineage. Most people use the name without permission.
>>751246
No true goju ryu.
Chunners do the same thing you're doing. If it's good it's wing chun if it's bad they're imposters from the wrong lineage. Nobody buys it from them either.
Relating way back to the beginning of the thread, if you know nothing but the name on the door, if the school is goju ryu it probably sucks and you shouldn't prefer it to kyokushin.
>>751206
>but diet and supplements require specialized training and licensing to talk about in a professional capacity.
Uh oh, all those GNC employees are about to be in Federal Pound Town.
>>751272
>>The choreography for some karate kata is hundreds of years old.
>So are sheep intestine condoms alternative medicines.
Sorry. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was intending to bring up the point that you can't claim this is some new bad way to practice when some of the kata Gojuryu does are supposed to be centuries old.
http://www.uchinadi-kan.org/kata/katalist.html
>>751000
;__;
>>751060
>Where you are going balls to the wall 100% and doing conditioning (again not body conditioning) exercises interspersed with sparring, mitt work, bag work etc.
I still have no clue what you are talking about..
So you are you saying you usually train with 70% intensity?
>Which is what, another day a week an hour a workout?
In my country it's considered impolite to just ask question without giving answers. I told you about my dojo, how about you tell something about yours, since you seem to look down on our training methods?
But for you interest, I also train Judo and have one day doing free training (jogging, body weight and so on).
>When you aren't getting a large volume of training you don't realize that the programming is bad
You mean like a computer? Are you a programmer?
>because it's usually covered up by pointless exercise
So full contact sparring is pointless? I just don't understand what you are trying to tell me.
I mean you want to train low intensity, but 6 days a week, why not. But why this moral high ground?
>Especially when you start getting closer to a fight, tournaments etc.
I think it's common sense that you don't train 100% right before tournaments.
>>751272
>shadow boxing actually looks like fighting
I don't think it looks too real when most people shadow boxing lazily keep their punches too tight and flop their wrists around with their hands open, professionals included. That is how most people shadow box. where as the whole point of kata is to sharpen a technique.
Tell me, what is the difference between you deciding to practice 1,2,3 in the air on your own and an instructor telling you to do so?
don't answer that, the answer is nothing.
your bias about what kata is and should be is showing. I maintain that kata is something all fighters do whether they know it or not, they just call it something different.
>>751326
What you're doing is making the definition of Kata so broad (much more broad than anyone else would) that absolutely anything could be Kata.
According to how you're applying the term Kata, prepping food for a recipe is Kata, taking measurements before you cut some 2x4s for a ramp is Kata etc.
>>751317
>I still have no clue what you are talking about..
>So you are you saying you usually train with 70% intensity?
No, I'm saying doing exhaustive exercise with no other point than to exhaust you all the time is shitty programming.
>how about you tell something about yours
The place I trained at until I recently (this August) moved for school was a fight gym ran by a retired pro kick boxer who fought from the 70's until the 90's, who had trainers who were current or also retired pro fighters. I also trained at other gyms ran by retired pro fighters from the same time frame.
This was also after competing in wrestling in high school for four years varsity, competing at the state level tournament.
>So full contact sparring is pointless?
Now you're just being obtuse.
>>751317
Also:
>You mean like a computer? Are you a programmer?
No. Programming is how you put together your training program.
That includes technical work (skill), strength work (lifting), and conditioning (cardio).
>>751326
You're being disingenuous here.
If your nephew calls you on the phone and says, "Hey, Uncle Anon! I just got a silver medal in a kata competition!" You're not going to wonder whether he was up there getting beat on by a partner or hitting focus mitts. You know exactly what he's talking about and so do the rest of us.
>>751339
It reminds me of how every time we'd make fun of chi the Sinaboos on this board used to try to say, "Chi just means breathing! You're not trying to say you don't believe in air, are you?" Or when they'd argue that since "kung fu" just means "skill," then everything you do is kung fu, therefore boxers do kung fu, therefore kung fu works. No, wait. He's not reminding me of that. He's doing exactly that.
>>751433
of course, and I would be very disappointed because kata isnt something you should be able to have a competition for. If you are judging kata in a competition you are doing it wrong
>>751466
Great, so now that we're all on the same page and agree what a kata is you can fuck right off with your bullshit schtick.
>>751502
you can call a chef knife a weapon all you want, but the reality is its a kitchen tool. It doesn't matter if the general public doesn't see it as so, you are still using it wrong if you use it as a weapon.
same thing with kata
>>751562
>you can call a chef knife a weapon all you want, but the reality is its a kitchen tool.
You're the one here trying to muddy definitions.
>It doesn't matter if the general public doesn't see it as so, you are still using it wrong if you use it as a weapon.
>same thing with kata
I'm not sure if you realize what you're saying here.
Is there any karate dojo that does all the retarded training we see in movie/manga ? Things like hitting your bones with a hammer or breaking tiles everyday or doing nothing but punches for 5 hours straight.
>>751976
From the sounds of it, that Goju faggot seems to train like this.
>>751339
>doing exhaustive exercise with no other point than to exhaust you all the time is shitty programming.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Let me break it down for you:
You do a lot pushups = more muscles = better punching power.
You do body conditioning every session = muscles get used to impact = better protection in fighting.
You get exhausted and can still go for some rounds of sparring = more stamina and strong willpower = going the extra mile in actual fighting.
>The place I trained at
So you don't even train Karate?
Of course you don't necessarily need intense body conditioning for fighting. But if you are planning to fight Kyokushin tournaments, you'll fight bare knuckle (at least at higher grades) which requires intense training in taking punches, which you have to build up over some time. Otherwise your fights will be rather short - either because you are such a hotshot that you don't get hit at all or because you get a fist in the stomach and it's game over.
>This was also after competing in wrestling in high school for four years varsity, competing at the state level tournament.
That's cool, but not really important for this discussion here.
>Now you're just being obtuse.
I'm apparently smart enough to use a web browser but stupid enough to visit a cambodian motorcycle board, take from that what you want.
>>752472
>Why is this so difficult to understand?
>Let me break it down for you:
>A bunch of broscience
>So you don't even train Karate?
Actually I trained Kyokushin for a few months in addition to the few years I trained to actually fight. The two guys who taught me how to fight both have Karate backgrounds (Chito Ryu, Yoshukai) and my striking has a strong Full Contact Karate influence because that's when they fought (70's to 90's before they both retired).
>either because you are such a hotshot that you don't get hit at all or because you get a fist in the stomach and it's game over.
Lol nah homie, but I bet you think you can "kill your nerves" in body conditioning. I also like how you assume I've never done body conditioning.
I think there's a problem of terminology here, because when I talk about conditioning in general I'm not talking about body conditioning, I'm talking about cardio and lifting (which is what 99% of people mean when they say conditioning).
>That's cool, but not really important for this discussion here.
My point was that I've trained and competed full time for more than a few years in different rule sets.
Not just three times a week for an hour or two a day.
>>752497
>Actually I trained Kyokushin for a few months
The point is not if you trained in KK, the question is if you actually competed under KK rules. If you didn't spend a certain amount of time getting used to bare knuckle punches, your fight will look like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvjPufddoNk
And there fore we you train for this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFIcLG8ValY
>I bet you think you can "kill your nerves" in body conditioning
This has nothing to do with "killing nerves", it has to do with getting used to strikes. It's a certain kind of muscles you don't get from doing situps all day. Muscle memory =/= muscles, otherwise every soccer captain would automatically be a Muay Thai champ..
You may want to look at this video from 0:30 to 0:40, you see how he just ignores the kicks and punches?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fMRRiBCSJA
Of course the Muay Thai guy has more techniques up his sleeve, this is not a Style vs. Style bashing here. But it would be ridiculous to say that body conditioning had no use.
Let's just keep it simple and stupid:
winning a fight = attacking + defending = dealing damage that is too much for the other guy to handle + withstanding the damage of the other person
Of course proper techqnique is important, guarding your head is important and so on..
But if I am capable to just "ignore" your body shots and lowkicks, it gives me:
-a psychological advantage
-a tactical advantage (you have less options to actually do damage, I have less points to protect)
-a fighting advantage (if I fail to block in time, I don't go down, but can keep on fighting)
> I'm talking about cardio and lifting (which is what 99% of people mean when they say conditioning).
This thread is explicitly about Kyokushin Karate, so I don't care what "99% of people mean".
>My point was that I've trained and competed full time for more than a few years in different rule sets.
And yet you don't seem to understand much about KK.
>>752511
>to say that body conditioning had no use
Please point out where I stated this.
>And yet you don't seem to understand much about KK.
What the fuck are we even arguing about at this point?
I've been pro KK over Goju this entire fucking thread. I've been arguing with that Goju faggot about it this entire thread.
>If you didn't spend a certain amount of time getting used to bare knuckle punches, your fight will look like this:
Again, where have I stated I didn't do body conditioning?
>This thread is explicitly about Kyokushin Karate, so I don't care what "99% of people mean".
Nah cock gobbler, this thread was about Kyokushin v Goju and why 99% of Goju is shit and KK is more than likely to be a good place to train.
And when I started talking about conditioning it was in reference to general training programming.
It's like you're looking for something to argue about.
>>752530
>99% of Goju is shit
if you think 99% of goju is shit then at least 99% of kyokushin is shit by default, because its literally the same exact fighting style minus head punches, dirty boxing, and ground work
>>752532
athletic trainer, not personal trainer. Personal trainers are from certifications by private 3rd party organizations that expire and need to be retested for, athletic trainers are state licenses, there is no expiration, and involves schooling including submission of comprehensive 30 day exercise programs and observed practical exams on real people.
>>752538
Talking about dirty boxing and pretending to do it in slow motion with a compliant partner isn't training dirty boxing. Ditto for ground work. Training methods matter.
>>752538
>if you think 99% of goju is shit then at least 99% of kyokushin is shit by default, because its literally the same exact fighting style minus head punches, dirty boxing, and ground work
Lol okay Gojubro.
Just ignore that the major difference between the two is that one tests their ability in a competitive fighting format, and one doesn't.
>>752548
>one tests their ability in a competitive fighting format, and one doesn't.
people in my school are perfectly free to compete whenever they want. We don't work towards competition as a school though. My teacher will never sign us up as a team to go to a competition, he'll never bring it up, but if you want to fight he will be in your corner with you.
he will even go with you if you want to go to a pajama dance point tournament, but you will be under a specific set of instructions the entire time. Those tournaments are crooked, and no contest left in the hands of judges is a true test of skills of any kind. therefore if it seems like the judges are showing an unfair bias to the other player he will signal to you and at that point you are to end the fight by knocking out the other person. If you are going to lose you lose on your own terms by beating the other person.
>>752543
I have already expressed that more than 1/3 of my training time is spent doing live sparring. And that is just dojo time, that's not even including all the sparring time I put in with other people at work.
>>752555
do you have a video of any of your sparring or matches
>>752556
I have been working on a highlight reel actually. I will post it once its online.
>>752532
>I hope you're not the guy who is claiming to be a "licensed" personal trainer
No, I'm not. I'm the guy grom the Dojo with people going to the Kyokushin world tournament. We can play "appeal to authority" all day long, mate - or we can just exchange perspectives and arguments.
>because you spew bullshit left and right
That's pretty rude. You know, in western philosophy there's this concept, called "opinion". You can go on to another concept, called "discussion", which usually works liek that:
1. thesis
2.antithesis
3. synthesis
You should try it sometimes, it's amazing.
>>752555
You think that's badass but it's actually pathetic. If you'd go to a non contact tournament and knock somebody out you're nothing but a sucker punching cheating faggot. They're there to play a game. Either play the game or don't but you don't fight in a game.
Knocking somebody out at a point krotty game is as shitty as doing it in a basketball game.
>>752569
They deserve what's coming to them. It's people like them that make you look down on karate.
>>752572
No. It's actually edge lords like you.
>>752594
at least I know how to fight, nigga
>>752597
No, you're a goju ryu faggot.
>>752604
do we need to fight? is that what has to happen here?
with for example standard knock down karate rules but with shoving and head punches also being allowed?
or would the addition of those two conditions render you unable to fight?
>>752606
You fighting anybody would satisfy me.
>>752606
Where do you live edge lord?
>>752530
>What the fuck are we even arguing about at this point?
My bad, it seems I got it all wrong.
>Nah cock gobbler
The return of the edgelords: the movie
>It's like you're looking for something to argue about.
No you.
No You.
NO YOU!
>>752663
nueva yawk
>>752693
This whole time it has been how many kyo guys and the one goju twat?
And is the goju twat the one who claims to be a dietician?
I've lost the plot here.
>>752743
>I've lost the plot here.
2nded
>>752743
One Goju Guy vs. an army of Kyokushin guys
>pic related
>>752792
>>752821
I'd read that. I have low standards.
>>752857
cuck
>>746126
I might be wrong At least in the US, I believe its not uncommon for goju ryu guys to do full contact sparring
>>746126
[spoiler]sorry[/spoiler]
>>750780
He said he doesn't train. He lives a "lifestyle". That means he has no job, or any other obligations for that matter.
>>753080
I quit my job in a bank because I was unhappy with the corporate grind. Having to wake up early and will myself out of bed, and encouraging myself "just 10 hours from now I can be back home".
now I live for myself spending my time studying and training my body.
it's a humble life, I pay my bills and basically have $200 a week left over to do what I want with. But I don't want much else, I have everything I need.
>>749290
Interesting goal.
>>751246
Earlier in this thread you were so unstoppably deadly you couldn't participate in any sort of combat sports, for fear that you might accidentally kill all your opponents.
Now you're getting tagged by someone who trains something that's 99% kata.
Just stop.
>>753744
>Now you're getting tagged by someone who trains for point fighting
fixed that
are you going to try to deny that point fighters are fast slippery mothercuckers?
if you think you are so fast you will never get hit you are full of shit and missing the point about the body conditioning, which is to prepare for the inevitability of getting hit. I am fine with getting hit. Sometimes you must let your opponent get inside so you can impose yourself upon them . if you do judo I would expect you to understand that concept well.
>>752696
this explains everything
>>753816
No, no, no. I'm doing Judo and I'm the Kyo guy, not the point sparring fighter for fuck's sake. I don't think the the Goju Ryu does Judo.
Maybe.. Could we.. could we just start this thread again and stop the confusing discussion?
>>753894
there is jujitsu in goju, it's what the ju stands for. Not as much as in judo obviously but maybe almost half as many, and ground fighting. arm bars, chokes, triangles, all that kind of stuff. Submission over position though. You would have to be some kind of retard to actually choose to pull guard if you are standing, that's only appropriate if you ended up on your back.
>>753912
Interesting.
I always thought that it's a shame that there is no grappling (in terms of locks, takedowns..) in many Kyokushin branches. AFAIK there are some offshoots who teach it, though.
Especially since KK founded by a high Dan Judoka and former Boxer I always thought that Boxing and Judo is somehow mandatory for KK.
The advantage of training "pure" Judo is of course that it's sparring is completely centered about the grappling aspect. But on the other side this also mean you have to figure out the trainsitions from Striking/Kicking to grappling yourself. So I'll definately have to get some "MMA lessons" at a striking gym later on to build it all up to a complete fighting style which works through all distances. A style like Goju Ryu has some advantages here since they give you at the very least the theory of when you can apply throws and trips.
>>753912
"ju" just means "soft." It's not an abbreviation for jujutsu.
Do you spar it with aliveness?
>>753912
>>754078
This
When King Dudebro asked Miyagi what his style was called, he opened up the Bubishi and found a passage talking about the concept of Hard & Soft, so that's what he named his karate.
>>754058
>A style like Goju Ryu has some advantages here since they give you at the very least the theory of when you can apply throws and trips.
Can confirm, at least half of the techniques I've learned in Goju involve grabbing and sweeping or throwing.
First time posting ITT btw, I'm not the edgy fagoot yall have been arguing with.
>>754181
>First time posting ITT btw, I'm not the edgy fagoot yall have been arguing with.
>even a fellow Goju-fag agrees that Anon is edgy
kek
>>754181
Same question to you then: when you say half the style is grappling, what does that entail? Hell, even taekwondo pays lip service to having all kinds of hold breaks and joint locks but when it is time to spar they throw all of that out and turn into shitty kickboxers.
Are you grabbing, sweeping, and throwing your sparring partners on a regular basis?
>>754266
>but when it is time to spar they throw all of that out and turn into shitty kickboxers.
I heard a lot of stories that the TKD grappling worked surprisingly well against untrained opponents. We probably all agree that you won't beat a pure grappler with that, but it seems to me it's enough to hold your own or "surprise throw" someone. Then again, I never did TKD, it's just what I heard by other guys.
Mind that many traditional martial arts were once designed as complete fighting systems, i.e. think about the "judo chops" for dan grades (lel).
>>754316
So that's a yes to the shitty kickboxing.
>>754319
I didn't say that explicitly.
>>754323
You were already getting your excuses lined up.
